On my recent visit to northern England, I was able to interview the leader of the Newfrontiers North team. I was deeply impressed with what I saw and heard during the day as his team of around 100 people gathered. God is doing a great work in the North of England and many healthy growing churches have been planted. There was also an amazing sense of community and true friendship in the room. It was wonderful to see a group of leaders with very different gifts and personalities fused together into a team. The team laughed, but clearly also had a serious edge as they work hard together to continue the wonderful mission of seeing people meet with Jesus and be transformed by joining Christ’s church.   It was at the end of a day which excited me about what God is doing that I was delighted to film the following interview:

Driscoll had a fascinating and substantial video interview with the Sydney Anglicans which I just had to draw to your attention.

Intriguingly they are happy to describe him as “Apostle to the generation wired“!

The fact that he can be well received by both Newfrontiers and the Sydney Anglicans says a lot about the ministry of this man.

Ed Stetzer has a great post discussing the concept of apostolic work today. He has some great links many of which would on first glance describe a view very similar to that which I hold. There almost seems to be a consensus emerging that recognises the need for some kind of apostolic role today (though many would disagree with the use of the actual word). I have a lot more posts on apostles today here on my blog.

This morning I attended the last session of the Leaders’ training track, Prophetic Encounter, led by Sam Poe and Phil Wilthew. Today’s session looked at “Pastors and Prophets Together Building the Church.” I also was able to get to the two previous sessions, which I summarized at these pages:

• Apostles and Prophets Together on a Mission

• Prophets and Prophets Together Giving a Fuller Picture

Sam serves on John Lanferman’s apostolic team in the USA. He and his wife, Marlene, have travelled widely, serving churches in the USA and other nations. In recent years they have been particularly involved in working together with churches in Russia and the Ukraine. Sam and Marlene are presently based in Tacoma, Washington, where they are part of a new church. Sam is also serving other churches related to Newfrontiers in that region.

Phil is married to Carole, has two children, and is an elder in City Church, Newcastle, UK. He serves churches prophetically, particularly in the north of the UK, and has a passion to develop prophetic teams.

More posts from this conference can be found on my TOAM08 label page. You can download the mp3s of this week’s talks by subscribing to the new Newfrontiers podcast, which will be an easy way for you to get access to the mp3s for free.

A prophet working in isolation can cause mayhem! But working with the local pastor produces both security and expansion in the people for whom he has responsibility.

Sam Poe began by turning to 1 Thessalonians 5. “Test everything. Hold on to the good, avoid every kind of evil.”

The focal point of prophetic ministry should be the local church. The application and expression of that ministry is in building up the church. What Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5 will require not just the prophets, but those in authority—teachers and pastors working together to ensure that prophecy is tested, weighed, and applied.

Prophecy can bring encouragement, direction, and prediction of the future, as well as warnings and correction. Mandates of this text are about prophecy.

SOME IMPERATIVES IN THIS PASSAGE

Don’t quench the fire by disdaining or despising prophecy.
Because of the excesses, errors, and eccentricities, we can reject it because of this. Root the pictures in sound theology. We need elders who will pastor as leaders the prophetic. The central purpose of prophecy is to build up. They also have a foundational effort. Encouragement or exhortation—it’s about helping someone reach for a positive future. Don’t ever use prophecy to try to get somebody to do something you want them to do. Life is full of trouble; prophecy brings comfort, which is more of a prod to get you going forward and to strengthen you in the battle.

TEST them all.
All prophecy needs to be tested. Not to judge with a scowl on the face. The word in Greek is to examine something and evaluate it with the attitude or expectation of approving it, i.e. our attitude should not be cynical.

Maintain what is good — hold on to it.
This is good and we want to take it on board and take some steps. Otherwise it could be frustrating. Apostolic ministry and pastoral ministry are critical. Fan the flames.

Abstain from whatever is evil.
Sometimes something comes in the name of prophecy that’s not helpful. Sometimes there is no real weight in the prophecy.

HOW TO RECEIVE PROPHETS INTO THE LOCAL CHURCH

If you don’t have a well-established mature prophet in the life of the church, sometimes you may need to receive one of them. Ephesians 4:11 type prophets can help us lay firm foundations in the church. It’s the same foundation that they lay.

As the question, “Are they accountable to a local church and its leadership?” Don’t invite them if they aren’t! Every leader and ministry must be rooted into the life of a local church. Some are very trans-local and mobile, but where is home? Where do they come back to? Are they related to and working in a team with an apostolic ministry? They are meant to be working together. Find each other and be related to each other.

It’s important that the congregation has a clear biblical understanding of the place and value of prophetic ministry in the local church.

Phil Wilthew then added to this. Pastors and prophets are very different people. Pastors and prophets have the same job description –—i.e. to reveal Jesus. There are five ways this can work well.

Recognize differences.
God designed us to be different and complementary. Don’t be too quick to compartmentalize. We are a blend of gifts. Gifts are colors and shades, but not boxes. Pastors tend to be warm, loving, create unity, security, strength, consolidate, provide strong foundations, are measured and well rounded, not given to extremes, cautious of change, patient, good for the long haul with no short sharp fixes. They are amazing gifts to the church. Prophets are the perfect foil for all those characteristics, — they are direct, love change, can get frustrated with the status quo, look at what’s ahead, find it hard to live in the hear and now as they are looking ahead, don’t like maintaining and consolidating; they are impulsive, defensive, attacking, not measured, and dislike caution. Again an amazing gift to the church. There is a great potential for synergy, and also for challenge between them. Self-awareness is a great gift.

Practice love.
It’s simple, but worth saying again. Neither circumcision or uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. If you don’t have love, you are a painful cymbal. It’s not emotional, it’s something we do. Chemistry is important, but express faith and practice love. Don’t be right all the time.

Love enables honest communication.
Love enables you to talk honestly with each other. But can rebuke, spell out what’s what. Too many people have high honesty, but shallow relationships. Paul opposed Peter face-to-face. Don’t send an e-mail! Look in the whites of their eyes and realize I “need to talk to you honestly.” Gather pastors with prophetically gifted guys in the church into groups, teams. In times of frustration, don’t be impulsive in your communication. Utilize communication, especially with prophetic people who have gone silent and found a cave to hide in!

Develop proper teams.
The first is a mixed-gift team. Be with guys who are not like you. Cover weaknesses. Also need same-gift teams, too. So we need to mix it up and have different combinations.

Play to your strengths.
We need to look to change the areas where we are lacking. But, we will be most effective by getting better at what we are already good at. Get better at your gift.

Give good feedback to good prophetic people in your church. The worst thing for most prophetic people is silence. Do it in the meeting. “I just want to say thank you so much to the prophetic people who shared this morning. I was particularly blessed by this …” Also, provide personal feedback, e.g. “Thank you so much for sharing. Next time something that might really help you would be if you would talk slower and more clearly.”

Don’t always translate frustration as rebellion, or that they are out of kilter. It’s their job to plow things up. He hears God and mercilessly questions everything. A prophet is therefore seen as a threat and wants movement now. He is not a troubler. Ask prophetic folk what they are hearing. Work on the character of prophetic people in your church. Character training is of highest value. Rigorously challenge prophetic people on their time with God. Understand that accuracy is learned and developed over time. Need very positive encouragement and help.

This morning I attended the second session of the training track, Prophetic Encounter. This session was entitled “Prophets and Prophets Together Giving a Fuller Picture.” The New Testament refers to prophetic bands. Prophets working together often results in releasing the prophetic gift in greater measure, to the enhancement and greater health of the local church. The session was led by Keith Hazell, a visiting speaker from outside Newfrontiers.

Keith and his wife, Nova, live in Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada, and are based in Mosaic Church. Keith has been in the prophetic ministry for more than forty years and ministers extensively at home and abroad. He has a growing relationship with Newfrontiers churches, and has served some in East Anglia for more than twenty years. He and his wife are British-born and have strong roots in eastern England. They are blessed to serve in the body of Christ, along with their family, teaching and demonstrating the prophetic ministry.

More posts from this conference can be found on my TOAM08 label page. You can download the mp3s of this week’s talks by subscribing to the new Newfrontiers podcast, which will be an easy way for you to get access to the mp3s for free

In the book of Acts, prophets do work in teams. Some people think prophets are all about tearing down. But the building-up bit is important. Prophets work as part of the leadership of a church, with different gifts.

Acts 13:1-3
“Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers . . .”

Prophets need to be comfortable with others; they are not individual players. We see them being sent in teams. They are under authority. Judas and Silas were sent together as a team and said much to encourage the Church.

1 Corinthians 14:29
Two or three should speak and others weigh carefully. It is a team package. Get confirmation from one another when a team is involved. Learn to hear the voice of God with other people.

Prophets Working Together in Unity
Whenever prophets are mentioned in the book of Acts, they are always mentioned in the context of the Church. There are no “Lone Rangers” in Acts. Identify who are prophets and who are not, and then use them to build the Church. God appoints them, the church recognizes them. As Ephesians 4 says, “God gives the Church prophets.” The place for building the body is in the Church.

The Purpose of Prophets Working Together
This is good for their humility. Prophets should not think more of themselves than they ought. Like obscurity, hide as much as you can. When they work together they build. Prophecy is not just about blessing people as individuals.

Protection for the Church
One man prophetic ministry can be very dangerous for a church. One prophet doesn’t see everything there is to see.

Prophets Train Others
Prophets need to reproduce other prophets—train people, help to stretch their horizons.

There is Power in Working Together
It is like an exponential increase of anointing. In 1 Samuel 10:5-6, Saul is told by Samuel that he will see a “procession of prophets coming down from the high place … and they will be prophesying.” As a result of him being near that group, the Spirit came on him. Iron sharpens iron. Get near people who are prophets and you may “catch” something, almost as if it’s contagious.

Problems Do Arise Sometimes When Working Together
We all have human frailties that can interfere with our ability to work together. We can feel jealous sometimes. Some prophetic people take pride in being weird and eccentric. In a team that can get ironed out. Some become insecure and depressed. Apostolic covering brings security. It makes all the difference. Accountability is crucial for prophets.

Promises Are Given by God
Ecclesiastes 4:9 — “Two are better than one …” Because we only know in part and prophesy in part, you get a bigger picture.

Deuteronomy 32:30 — “How can one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight?” Two people can put 10,000 to flight, but one only 1,000.

Julian Adams then added some additional thoughts. Prophets are intercessors. There is something about connecting to the heart of God and his affection, being carried into the heart of God together. Developing a sensitivity to the emotions of God for the people you are about to prophesy over. Get God’s heart. Pray together as prophetic people.

We are in Christ so there will never be a closed heaven. When Jesus was baptized heaven was opened, and now he has risen to heaven.

Prophets can also come together for the sake of evangelism. Start with an encouraging word. Encouragement is the simplest form of prophecy. When unbelievers come in, they should say God is in this place. The worship team and prophecy can go together also. Stop, pause, and meditate.

This morning I attended the first segment of the training track, Prophetic Encounter. Today’s session, “Apostles and Prophets Together on a Mission,” emphasized that there is great strength in apostles and prophets working together. They are often seen as complementary gifts in the early church as they help to lay foundations and bring adjustment to erroneous practices in church life. Today’s session was led by Guy Miller and Julian Adams.

Guy is based in Bournemouth, UK and heads up the team that oversees the Wessex region. Guy also leads the eldership team at Citygate Church, Bournemouth, and has responsibilities in India and Portugal. He is married to Heather and they have four children.

Julian Adams is originally from The Bay Community Church, Cape Town, South Africa, where he was an elder. He moved to the UK in August 2006 in response to God’s leading for him to be with Terry Virgo for a season and become part of Church of Christ the King, Brighton. In August 2007, he returned to South Africa for a few months before returning to Teesside in the north of England. Julian has traveled widely, serving Newfrontiers churches in the UK and elsewhere.

More posts from this conference can be found on my TOAM08 label page. You can download the mp3s of this week’s talks by subscribing to the new Newfrontiers podcast, which will be an easy way for you to get access to the mp3s for free.

In introducing the seminar, Guy reminded us of the similar seminar from last year. I was there myself and can testify to the life-changing nature of the time. The prophecies given to me last year were very important and influential on my life. There are some implications of that which I will be sharing on my blog at some point in the coming weeks.

As for two specific things that happened last year in this seminar— one guy was singled out and prophesied over in a highly specific way, and a church plant in Paris was the result. There was also a barren woman who now has a baby.

Prophets do sometimes disrupt nice tidy churches. But people sometimes take a prophetic word out of context and turn it into individualism. Actually, it should build the local church, not send people into isolation.

Ephesians 2 and other places speak of apostles and prophets working together. We believe the gifts in Ephesians 4 are intended for today.

How do apostles and prophets work together? Not everyone is a prophet or apostle. Apostles equip, build, and plant churches and help them to be healthy. Apostles know how to build the church with Jesus as the foundation. They are given by the ascended Christ. They draw all the other gifts back to building the local church. Apostles lay the hidden foundations. No one ever says you have lovely foundations in your house! If apostolic ministry is working, then people see a glorious church, although they might not always realize what the foundations are.

The Church is built on apostles and prophets who work together. A prophet is not someone who sometimes prophesies. They are big picture men. People who catch the Church up to the bigger framework of God’s unfolding plans in history.

Jesus is the cornerstone; everything else fits to him. Jesus is the center. Apostolic ministry sniffs out legalism and teaches grace. Apostolic ministry is missional. The great days of mission are before us as a movement. Apostolic ministry is concerned about the poor.

Two reasons why apostles work with prophets. One is for accountability. Are you going beyond what God said? Has it come true? Are you ministering out of pride or hurt? Prophetic ministry can break the status quo. But we can treat prophecy with contempt. The second is authority. Without authority, prophecy is dangerous. Prophetic can lead to “I am doing what I want to do.” The other thing is that we have to interpret how to respond. Agabus predicted a famine and a response was needed. Later on, when he predicted the imprisonment of Paul, the correct response was for Paul to do nothing and keep going. Apostles will know how to respond to the word of prophecy.

Julian Adams then came up and spoke about his experiences of working in partnership with apostles. He explained that he worked alongside Simon Petit, who valued the prophetic highly and then applied it radically. For Simon, prophetic encounters drove much of the shape of ministry. Traveling with Simon opened a bigger picture of what the Church was. It made him want to give the rest of his life to building the local church. We must see something of the mystery of Christ and his Church. They want to see the Church become all that she should become.

He then turned to Matthew 16 and began reading at verse 30. It is ongoing revelation of the resurrected Christ that is the foundation of the Church. We don’t add things to the Bible, as the Bible is enough. But there is a living, speaking, talking, caring, loving Jesus who wants to reveal himself to you in order to shape your destiny and direct the Church, which is still His.

Prophets flow from a place of encountering Jesus in order to receive blueprints and revelation so that the Church can be built. Each church has a location, a personality, a blueprint. The prophet recalls the blueprint for that locality.

Someone who prophesies is not necessarily a prophet. The first way you know someone is not a prophet is when they call themselves a prophet! There is a “spirit of prophecy” which can affect people in the room when a group of prophetic individuals are together. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is often the gateway gift, allowing things to flow together. Hang out with other prophets. But not ones who are too weird.

Ask God for words of knowledge and prophecy. Ask also him for an impartation from other prophets. You can flow in the gift of prophecy much more. It is our inheritance to move in prophecy. All of God’s servants are now able to hear his voice (see Acts 2 where Joel is quoted). We didn’t get saved just because of a good preacher—the Spirit of God spoke to our spirit and caused it to become alive so we could respond to him.

Don’t follow after prophetic words, follow after intimate communion with the Father. We have access. The big difference between Old and New Testament prophets is that everyone under the new covenant can hear from God, not just the prophet. The prophet is given to the Church.

Prophets speak with a different authority. The reason for prophecy is not that people can be individually blessed. Instead, it is to set the individual into a place where they can function best to help people. The prophetic carried weight in the early Church. “There is going to be a drought,” said Agabus, and they immediately made provision. They weighed prophecy. We must not take them flippantly. Get the Church ready for Christ’s return. Add weight to the Word.

Faith is the activating ingredient to see the Word of God come to pass. Ministry that apostles and prophets have in common is that they come into a context to break legalism, control, and the spirit of Jezebel. No word is too big for your local church. Prophets and apostles will do a consultation with them. Prophets feel things, sense things. It’s like an antenna—it can get crossed sometimes. Sometimes the prophets don’t even realize what they are doing. A wise apostolic man will pick up on what is being said and apply it. Prophetic people get rejected. Prophets are in the pit. They get frustrated. Sometimes that frustration leads to rejection of the Church. But you can’t love Christ without loving his bride. You cannot carry the head around without his body.
Apostolic ministry is not management speak. The point is that we need revelation by the Spirit. We need signs and wonders. Fall in love with Jesus. He is empowering you to live a resurrected life! Let’s love him a little bit! God wants to hear your voice. Lift him up. God is not deaf, but he’s not scared either!

As we continue, I cheekily asked Ed if he thinks missional and apostolic are synonymous. Interestingly, the word missionary is the Latin word used in the vulgate Bible to translate apostle from the Greek.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview is now available to read here.

Yesterday I began an interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. We talked a little about what they do and how Terry came to speak at New Word Alive.

Wendy begins this section of our interview talking about sharing in Terry’s travels, and what it was like to be left behind with five children. Terry also explains briefly what he means by modern day apostles.

More than once I have been accused of appropriating Lloyd-Jones to my charismatic cause. Today I want to restart my MLJ Monday tradition by sharing a quote which comes from a context where the Doctor is strongly disagreeing with one of my positions. He is talking about the so-called Ephesians 4 ministries. The Doctor divides these into two groups, believing that all but pastors and teachers are temporary. I believe that they all continue, although I think of modern-day apostles as being, in some important ways, different to the original. Anyway, the Doctor then goes on to speak into what is perhaps a less interesting discussion, but one that is worth opening up nonetheless. Does Paul have in mind two distinct groups, the pastors and the teachers, or one group of people who are both pastors and teachers? Let’s see what he has to say:

The permanent offices are described as those of ‘pastors and teachers.’ This group is much simpler to understand, although there has been much dispute as to whether pastors and teachers are two different offices. I agree with those who say that they are one. Were they two separate offices we would expect to read, ‘He gave some, apostles; some, prophets; some, evangelists; some, pastors; some, teachers’; but the apostle writes, ‘some, pastors and teachers,’ linking the two together; and generally speaking, these two offices are found in the same man. They apply to a more settled state of the Church, and have persisted throughout the centuries. The office of a pastor is generally concerned about government and instruction and rule and direction. It is borrowed, of course, from the picture of a shepherd. The shepherd shepherds his flock, keeps the sheep in order, directs them where to go and where to feed, brings them back to the fold, looks after their safety and guards them against enemies liable to attack them. It is a great office, but unfortunately it is a term which has become debased. A pastor is a man who is given charge of souls. He is not merely a nice, pleasant man who visits people and has an afternoon cup of tea with them, or passes the time of day with them. He is the guardian, the custodian, the protector, the organizer, the director, the ruler of the flock. The teacher gives instruction in doctrine, in truth. The Apostle proceeds to elaborate this, showing that we need to be built up, and that we must not remain ‘babes.’ We must be protected against ‘every wind of doctrine,’ and the way to do so is to give instruction and teaching.

Although I say that these two offices generally go together and have done so throughout the long history of the Church, sometimes one man has had more of a pastoral gift than a teaching or preaching gift; at other times a man has more of a teaching and preaching gift than a pastoral gift. This is a matter of individual variation according to the gift of the Spirit. But in the Church you have these offices, these men who teach and preach and care for the souls of the members of the church.”

— David Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Christian Unity, Studies in Ephesians (Chapter 4, verses 1 through 16), Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1972, p. 192.

For more information on Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, see this summary post or the MLJ Recording Trust.

UPDATE
I have had an e-mail from a correspondent who strongly believes that Lloyd-Jones was wrong about pastors and teachers being one office. My correspondent cited the grammatical work of Dan Wallace (see p. 284 of his Greek Grammar—Beyond the Basics) and an article on the evangelist, which discusses this point (p. 30ff).

I also have had another e-mail on the subject which said, “We actually had to study a full-length technical paper on this verse by Dan Wallace as part of our second-year Greek course. He does not argue that they must be two separate offices—he does not go that far. What he says is that the Greek language does not demand that they be one office. We should determine the answer from the context. Personally I go with theoretically separate giftings which are very commonly held by the same person. (Apostles can also be teachers, etc.)”

I had planned on an early night tonight! However, despite my best intentions, this session looks like it will keep me up late once more tonight. I may duck out half way through if I can’t keep my eyes open.

Driscoll began by claiming that, statistically, the only variable that makes a difference to the life or death of a new church plant is the gifting and qualifications of its leader. Driscoll will be bringing a book out on church leadership this summer.

The first and most important officer in the church is God—Jesus is the Senior Pastor of your church. Jesus should be on the organizational chart! He is the Chief Shepherd. Don’t assume ANYTHING. Under Jesus are qualified men, both pastors and elders. The words “pastor” and “elder” can be used interchangeably.

To be qualified, you must be called by God. Driscoll confessed to being functionally charismatic “with a seatbelt.” God calls people today. Acts 20—“Shepherd the flock over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you.”

There has to be a sense of call or desire—it’s not just a matter of being nominated and voted on. There must be a desire to be an elder. God has to clearly call you. Not in an arrogant, proud, or controlling way. If you don’t have that sense of call, you will end up quitting the ministry. You must not limit the ways that God can call you. There needs to be a strong desire to care for God’s people.

1 Timothy 5. The ministry can be described as “ox-like” in the sense of carrying a load, grinding it out, staying faithful.

1 Timothy 2:12 ff—gives the qualifications of an elder. Once you sense a call, then look at the qualifications.

Don’t call the trained. TRAIN THE CALLED.

Driscoll strongly supports the complementarian position. He was very clear that anyone wanting to plant an Acts 29 church needs to agree with the teaching that eldership is male. The government of home is the foundation on which eldership is built. In the family the woman is the helper, the man is the head.

Driscoll made the point that you have to get to know someone over a period of time to see if they are qualified to be an elder. There are lots of character issues. “Beyond reproach” is a catch-all. Must be able to teach in some context or another, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be preaching. This could be in smaller groups—one-on-one or in a discussion group. All your elders do not need to be preachers.

You have to take care of your family first. God takes care of your family THROUGH YOU. God first, family second, ministry third. Be a one-woman man. Ministry will magnify and expose holes in your character. Do you help your wife? Do you care for her? Do you pay attention? Do you train her? Are you alive in conversation with her? Paul and Jesus were single. But in our culture it is very hard for an elder to be single. Most of what you learn about being a pastor will be by being a daddy. Pastors are fathers. Don’t let your children think that the church stole their father. Let your kids love what you love—the church, etc. Take kids whenever possible. Seeing your kids love Jesus is so much more important than church leadership.

Must be emotionally stable. Eldership is a front row seat for sin and depravity. Must be able to live there. Must have self-control. An elder needs to be disciplined in every area of life. Think through every decision and make a plan. No addictions. It is not biblical that alcohol is a sin in and of itself. Jesus took it, and gave it to others. Basically elders should be examples such that others are able to point to them and say, for example, to their daughter, “I want you to marry a man like that.”

Hospitality is crucial. Elders should be welcoming to strangers, new people, non-Christians, etc. Pastors need to be evangelistic. BUT, be discerning and guard your home and family. Don’t close your home.

Anger is more of a challenge to the average pastor than many people realize.

Also, you will need a gift of apostleship—a church planting/missionary gift. Someone who pastors a church that is an existing body is a different guy from one who starts something new. In planting a church, you need to be entrepreneurial and have the ability to attract people to follow you.

You will also need to have the ability to preach and defend the gospel. You will need to refute false doctrine. You can’t be frightened by wolves! Too many shepherds are just sheep. You don’t know if you have a sheep or a shepherd until a wolf turns up!

You must also be an equipper of others. (Ephesians 4:13)

Define the role of your wife. Don’t make her sit in the front row or be present at every event. It’s not a two-for-one deal. You want her to be a mature Christian who is serving in the church as appropriate. She must love you and care for your children. The pastor needs emotional support and sexual companionship. Marriages in the church will imitate the leaders.

Some elders are like prophets, some like priests, some like kings. As a prophet, Jesus proclaimed the truth—corrected elders. Some elders are like that. Can call to repentance. The priest loves people. They do hospital visits and weddings. They are compassionate. They like to encourage people and shepherd them. The prophet yells over them at the crowd. Kings like systems, teams, measurable results, leadership.

Most of the prophets are reformed. Most of the priests are doing the whole emerging thing. Most of the kings are in the mega-churches. Some will be both. Need an eldership that has each of these aspects and learn. Read outside of your tribe. For example, learn to get organized by reading a book and get some systems together. Be humble enough to learn from all of them! And be discerning enough to know what not to agree with.

We want to build biblical, loving, effective churches.

Well, I kept my eyes open, but am off to bed. If you want to follow other sessions, you can do it live online at http://www.theresurgence.org/live.

No. 24 on the list of the most widely read posts among readers of my blog appeared on July 13, 2007, and provided an audio link to my interview with Rob Rufus.

Interviewing Rob at the end of the Together on a Mission 2007 Conference was memorable, and those who listened to the mp3 will know just how much laughter was a part of that conversation. In December 2007, the written transcript of this interview with Rob Rufus was published as a series on my blog. Any one of those segments can be read by clicking on the links here:

• Preacher Rob Rufus

• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
• Rob Rufus: How to Explore the Charismatic
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today
• How apostles Work Today

It was a real delight to sit with Rob Rufus and Tope Koleoso at the end of the conference for the following wide-ranging interview. I would strongly encourage you to listen to this, especially if you want to get more insight into what these apostolic families of churches look like in practice, or if you are just intrigued to learn more about the Holy Spirit.

You can download the mp3 or listen to it right here on the blog:

Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

• Preacher Rob Rufus

• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
• Rob Rufus on How To Explore the Charismatic
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we’ve never said, “We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!”—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same”—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and “cross pollinate.” It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we finished by talking a bit about the network of churches of which he is a part. We ended with Rob speaking about a team of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/ teachers. Today we begin by asking Rob what he means by “apostles.”

Regular readers of my blog will remember that, together with my pastor, Tope Koleoso, we had the joy of being able to chat with Mark Driscoll when we went to Edinburgh to hear him preach live. We were deeply impressed with his graciousness and kindness to us. In this, he reminded me of a man who is one of my other living Christian heroes—Terry Virgo.

I know that many people were disappointed not to be able to make it to Scotland to hear Mark. So I am delighted to relay an announcement from Terry Virgo’s blog today. Mark Driscoll has agreed to speak next July at the Newfrontiers Leaders Conference in Brighton, UK. Here is how Terry begins his post:

“The last time I checked, the Pope was still a Catholic, the death rate was still hovering at around 100%, and the chances of getting Mark Driscoll to speak at a conference in the UK in 2008 were averaging at zero.

It is therefore with great delight that I can announce that we have, with the aid of certain friends (for an inspired guess see Adrian Warnock’s blog), arranged for him to be our main visiting speaker at Together on a Mission in Brighton next year, 8-11 July 2008.

In recent months I have found myself listening to downloads of Mark Driscoll’s preaching, probably more than anybody else’s. I find him completely arresting, relevant, Biblical, funny, aggressive, and packing a real punch. I believe he will do us a lot of good.

I love his value system and I am impressed by what has been accomplished by God through his ministry based in Seattle, where a church of several thousand has been built in a few years, starting from almost nothing and largely not through church swapping, but conversion.

He is theologically reformed, Biblically orthodox, and culturally relevant, and particularly addresses the post-modern world with remarkable insight. I have just read his chapter in the Crossway publication, The Supremacy of Christ in a Post-Modern World. I found myself underlining sentence after sentence, and simply wrote ‘Wow!’ in the margin at the conclusion of the chapter. I am deeply grateful to God that he will be with us.” Read more . . .

This is a fantastic piece of news. Terry and Mark are both pastors of pastors. Church planting is a major need of our world today. Leaders themselves need to be trained.

As an example of Terry’s gifting in operation, he has recently finished a series of posts on the vital role of the pastor in the life of a church. He re-examines the biblical teaching. I will finish this post by giving you a taste of each post in the series, but do go and read them all; they are worthy of careful study.

Church Leaders

As a movement, Newfrontiers has tended to emphasise the role of apostles and prophets. The church was originally built on the foundation of apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:20) so they gave the people of God their fundamental identity. I have argued that we were not built on a pastoral foundation.

My argument has often been expressed by noting that pastors are called to care for and feed the flock and meet the flock’s needs. An over-emphasis, therefore, on the pastoral role can result in pre-occupation with needs. We could become need-centred instead of apostolic and prophetic, thereby missing God’s intention and forgetting the bigger picture, building churches that gradually become foreign to the atmosphere of the New Testament.

I have been alarmed at the possible danger of a church becoming introverted, developing a culture where personal preference dominates and shepherds major on discerning and serving people’s so-called ‘felt needs’. However, in taking this stance, we may have failed to bring adequate positive Biblical teaching about the vital role of pastors and teachers. They are, of course, the most visible ministers in the local church. They have the most ‘hands on’ role among the flock. Read more . . .

Shepherds of the Flock

Jesus didn’t say, ‘I am the good apostle,’ or ‘the good prophet,’ or even ‘the good evangelist,’ but happily claimed to be the Good Shepherd. . .

Although the Lord was their ultimate shepherd, it is clear that God actually enlisted men to fulfil the shepherding role on His behalf. . .

As the apostles go, their intuitive strategy in obeying the command was to plant churches, establish flocks and appoint shepherds to care for them. Read more . . .

Other Sheep I Must Bring

When Billy Graham came to the UK in the 1950’s and ‘60s, the call to return to God would have been generally comprehended by that generation. Today we live in a different era and though people can be born again through encountering the simplest message, we must not assume that initial conversion will result in inevitable Christian maturity, or even basic understanding of Christian living.

Deconstructing people’s world view
The role of the modern shepherd includes a call to deconstruct people’s previous world view. Nothing can be taken for granted. Lives need to be re-formed. Coming from a fragmented and aimless society devoid of any trace of Christian values, people need to be re-socialised and taught how to relate in godly ways.

Raised on self-indulgence, consumerism and rampant individualism, the new convert won’t automatically be transformed into a mature Christian who knows how to conduct himself in the household of God (1 Timothy 3:15).

God has promised to give His people shepherds after His own heart who will feed them with knowledge and understanding (Jeremiah 3:15). This feeding requires a radical approach. We are not called to build on a false foundation with teachings that imply merely personal fulfilment or the grasping of the individual’s full potential, or how to love oneself. The shelves of many a Christian bookshop are filled with titles which appeal to personal fulfilment as the goal of the Christian life. Coming from a culture where demanding your personal rights seems to be the bottom line, new Christians hardly need that diet. Read more . . .

Spirit-inspired Preaching

. . . Holy Spirit-inspired preaching brings about an encounter with God that demands a verdict and produces a changed life based on revelation, faith and love, not cold obedience to external rules.

God’s flock will intuitively hear His voice and respond as truth is fed to them by called and anointed pastor/teachers. Gradually a culture of God-centredness will emerge characterised by worship, faith, grace, mercy, respect, service and the awareness of being an alien people whose fundamental citizenship lies elsewhere (Philippians 3:20) . . .

The shepherd’s ability to feed and be a channel of God’s grace will result in the gathering of a flock. The sheep gather to the gifted anointing of shepherding and thus a flock forms.

The responsibility of the shepherds is not simply to expound truth but to develop relationships of love and trust, and in some cases to ‘parent’ a flock often made up of those who have never been parented before. Read more . . .