Welsh Mountains On The Way To New Word Alive from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

This was taken on top of a mountain in Wales. I didn’t use the external microphone so it sounds a bit windy and you can hear a bit of camera noise. This is an example of why an external microphone is such a good idea.

In 10th place is one of the first articles I ever wrote, although it was not published on the blog until more recently. It discusses the “Toronto Blessing.”

In at 9th place is my series of posts on New Word Alive 2008.

This little video was used for the New Word Alive 2008 conference and does a great job of summarizing the glorious message of the Bible, which is that God forgives fallen people like you and me!

Begining tomorrow I will be live-blogging the Newfrontiers conference, Together On A Mission. (I will shorten this to TOAM.)

My posts will all be found on my TOAM08 label page.

You can download the mp3s of this week’s talks by subscribing to the new Newfrontiers podcast, which will be an easy way for you to get access to the mp3s for free.

Newfrontiers is a family of reformed charismatic churches that began in England and now reaches into many nations. Last year we had 53 nations represented in Brighton; maybe this year it will be more. My live-blogging from TOAM07 and TOAM06 is also available.

The main visiting speaker this year is Mark Driscoll. I have a number of posts about him, including notes of sermons and an e-mail interview.

If you are interested in finding out more about Newfrontiers, the following interviews with leaders in Newfrontiers are helpful, some of which were carried out at New Word Alive. There is also a comprehensive Newfrontiers website.

TERRY VIRGO — Leader and founder of Newfrontiers

• Written report of an interview at Jubilee Church

• Video and transcript of an interview at New Word Alive 2008

STUART TOWNEND — Co-writer with Keith Getty of the hymn “In Christ Alone”

• Report and mp3 of an interview at New Word Alive 2008

JOHN LANFERMAN — Leader, Newfrontiers USA

• Transcript and mp3 of an interview at TOAM07

NATHAN FELLINGHAM — Songwriter and member of Phatfish

• Transcript and mp3 of an interview at New Word Alive 2008

This concludes my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. Today Terry provides insight into why he decided to work together with the New Word Alive conference. He also tells us how he chooses who to work with, and in particular, what led him to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference, which will begin on July 8th. (I will be live-blogging the conference.) The video of this segment of the interview can be viewed here.

The two previous segments of this interview with Terry and Wendy can be read at these pages:

• Terry and Wendy Virgo at New Word Alive

• Terry and Wendy Virgo on Itinerant Ministry

Terry
I truly believe God wants to bring together a people who love Scripture, people who would flock to hear someone like Don Carson or John Piper, people who really regard Scripture highly.

Adrian
Very good. So, how do you determine, then, who you’re going to work with and who you’re not. Obviously you’re happy to work with these guys, and without going to names, I guess there must be others in UK that you’re not happy to work with. How do you determine that?

Terry
Most of my life has to be lived working out my commitment to Newfrontiers. That is where my loyalty lies. That’s where my duty lies. These are people who are expecting me to serve them, and I’m very happy to serve them. I’ve always felt that God said, “Now always keep a door open to the broader body of Christ. Don’t get shut in.” So for decades now, we’ve always had some involvement. So I get invitations and I have to choose here and there whether I will go. And this seemed a really brilliant place to come. I was honored to be invited, especially with a Carson and Piper here. So, yeah, I count it a huge privilege to be here. Also being a fairly substantial sizable conference, it means one can reach many people in a short time. After I spoke at the UCCF Forum, I had dozens, I think it would be true to say, letters from Christian Unions saying would I please come and speak at their CU. Well, I can’t do that. I can’t be driving all over England, speaking in CU meetings. But I can speak to a couple thousand students here in one week, so this is a really good economy of time, as well as an enjoyable thing to do.

Adrian
Okay. So I know, as an example, you’ve chosen to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference this year. And in the past you’ve chosen various people who some people, I think, were surprised about. How do you go about choosing them, and specifically Mark. What made you choose Mark for this year’s Brighton Conference?

Terry
I’ve been listening to Mark Driscoll over the last year or so, I guess. I’m deeply impressed with his biblical stance. I think he’s an unusually powerful preacher. He is also bitingly relevant to our generation and aware of the culture in which we live. I think he’s very unusual. He’s not only fighting for the truth in some sort of static way of just defining the doctrine. He reminds me of a kind of latter day Spurgeon. He’s very clear on doctrine. He’s very evangelistic, building a great church, it sounds, helping to plant churches in Acts 29—again like Spurgeon, who helped to get churches started all around London. You hear about people in Australia who were reading his sermons a week or so after he preached them in London as they printed them and sent them round the world. And now Driscoll’s been downloaded all over the world. He’s an unusual guy, very robust, like Spurgeon was, out of step somewhat, even with his group. But I love what I hear. I’ve yet to meet him, but I love what I hear.

Adrian
Great. Excellent. Well, we’ll look forward to another big conference in July. It seems like there’s conference after conference, doesn’t it? It’s great, I guess, to have people gathering round God’s Word and learning stuff. I mean, that’s what I find anyway. I like conferences because you keep going . . .

Terry
I think I love the local church the most, and I know that would be true of you.

Adrian
Yes!

Terry
That’s where we work out our lives. That’s where we grow. We can’t build our lives on conferences. But we have been associated with some very big ones over the years and know the huge impact, so I certainly don’t despise conferences, but I know that in the end we work out our lives in God in the local church.

Adrian
H-m-m-m. Very good, very good. Well, thanks very much, both of you, for joining us. It’s been a real delight, as always, and I guess we’ll leave it with that. Thank you.

Terry
Thank you, Adrian.

This is the second installment of my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo which began yesterday. That segment can be read here. The video version of this part of the interview can be seen here.

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
This is a very personal question, because my poor wife has the same problem.

Wendy
Oh, yes, she has five kids, too.

Adrian
And me traveling more for work, of course. But how did you cope being left alone, like she is right now, with five children and actually no car, I’m ashamed to admit.

Wendy
Oh, right. Well, when Terry was away, usually it was abroad, so I did have the use of the car, which was very helpful.

Adrian
Well, she usually does as well. This is, in fact, the first time since we went down to one car that we’ve been in this situation.

Wendy
Oh, right.

Adrian
Well, what about you? You were left at home; he was away . . .

Wendy
Well, our main focus is to build churches, which are really all one another in context, so we aren’t left alone, in fact. I was very much involved in church life and very beautifully loved and served by the church that I’ve been in now for twenty-five or six years. And, I didn’t actually feel that I was left alone. Obviously, I missed Terry a lot when he was away, but life was very busy and very full, and I never felt solitary, if you know what I mean.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

Wendy
And it has been great that as the children have grown up and now have their own homes (they’re all married now) that I can travel much more with Terry. I think it is a new season. Terry always used to travel with another guy or a group of guys because it was part of his training of them and part of introducing them to our values and helping them to see how an apostle works and how to work with an apostle, and developing a whole understanding of apostolic work. So, to take a group of guys with him was very helpful and instructive to all concerned. But now we have a number of men who would be in that position, like David Holden, Dave Devenish, and so on, who would also take groups of people with them, teams I would say. But as they have developed teamwork as well, they are now going off with their wives because their children are also grown up. So it’s becoming a bit of a pattern, I think.

Adrian
You’re very much involved, right in the thick of things, then?

Wendy
Probably not as much as say, some people like Dave Devenish, who goes into a place for several weeks or months at a time.

Adrian
And he’s taken his wife in those situations?

Wendy
Well, yes, that’s the thing. It’s quite a sacrifice, I think, at times. Tramping around places like Kazakhstan, places I can’t even pronounce. But, actually, Terry now will be going to Australia for three months at the end of this year, and that will be a new adventure for us.

Adrian
But you went to America for three years, didn’t you?

Wendy
Two years.

Adrian
Two years!

Wendy
Yes, yes. Actually that was a very positive time, too.

Adrian
Yes. So, I’m going to move back to Terry for a moment now because your wife just mentioned this funny “a” word—apostolic, apostle work. What about that? Because obviously there will be a lot of people who will, I guess, not really understand what that means for Newfrontiers.

Terry
Yes. I think it’s very important to say that we see different types of apostles, even in the Bible—Jesus the great apostle; the twelve, unique obviously, in the book of Revelation. But then you see in Ephesians 4—Jesus ascends on high and gives from his ascended position apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers—so there’s that ongoing ministry. He says this will be until the Church comes to fullness of stature, to a mature man. So, in a sense, this is an ongoing thing that God will continually give these varied ministries. So one isn’t looking for more Bible writers. I think very often we from the reformed tradition have thought—well, an apostle writes the Scripture and that’s his role. But, really, I don’t think that stands up to close inspection. Several of the twelve did not write Scripture. Several of the people who wrote Scripture were not apostles, so it’s not really the point. The point is more church planters. Paul says as a wise master builder, “I lay the foundation”—he traveled, he planted churches. We feel that’s really what we’re talking about—modern day church planters. People who pioneer new ground, establish eldership, establish churches, and a fathering, ongoing care for those churches, strongly built on relationship, so that we’re friends in the ministry, as Paul referred to people. Even at the end of Romans, in chapter 16, there are all these personal greetings to people. So we’re building very relationally. We’re building new churches, planting churches. And now various teams have been raised up doing apostolic work. [Ed: See post Apostles Are Meant For Today for more information.]

Adrian
Right. So I guess in summary what you’re talking about, for those people who have different vocabularies, is someone who can church plant and help establish churches. That’s obviously exciting. I mean, there are 500 churches in Newfrontiers now, aren’t there? Is that right?

Terry
It’s probably nearer 600 now.

Adrian
Wow! Last time I checked it was 400, so the number must be going up very quickly.

Terry
Yes, it is. I’ve been in touch today, just a moment ago, with Edward Buria in Kenya, where there are now some 130 churches, which he has helped start, and we served with him and are very much in touch with him at the moment with the political tensions there. And then we have churches in South Africa, and indeed, around the world. So when you add them all up around the world, it’s untold. It’s difficult to keep up because Edward plants so many churches in Kenya. But we’re also planting churches in West Africa, South Africa, and into Asia, and as Wendy was saying, Australia now, New Zealand. So we’re planting churches very widely.

Adrian
You didn’t mention anything about America, though.

Terry
Yes, we are. I’ve been to the USA, and in fact, we’ll be at the . . .we’ve been in March to the Leaders Conference, and then we’re going again in June to our midwest family camp [ONEBLAZE] held in Warrensburg [Missouri] just outside Kansas City, and then in August we’re going across to the West, where we have growing involvement in Oregon, and in Idaho and Montana—a number of churches that are reaching toward us. Quite a lot of these pastors are coming over. I understand thirty pastors are coming from the West to our Brighton Conference, Together on a Mission, in July, where there will be about 5,000 gathered there. But just from that part of America, we have thirty coming. So I would think there might be something in the region of sixty coming over from the US to our conference in the summer. [Ed: For more details see Newfrontiers events in the USA.]

Continued in part 3 . . .

Today I am going to share the written transcript of the first segment of a three-part interview with Terry Virgo and his wife, Wendy at the New Word Alive Conference in North Wales. The video of that segment can be seen here. I have also previously interviewed Terry here.

In this segment I ask them to tell us a little bit about what they do, what is Newfrontiers, and how Terry came to speak at the New Word Alive Conference this year.

Terry
Thanks, Adrian. Good to see you.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s great that you were able to find some time to chat with us, and to just be here at this conference. I just wonder, how have you found the conference so far?

Terry
Well, we’ve really enjoyed the opportunity for fellowship with a number of people we wouldn’t normally see. First of all, I’ve never met Don Carson, and it’s been magnificent to listen to him, and John Piper—inspiring again. It’s good to make new friends—people whose names I’ve known, like Wallace Benn. This is the first time I’ve got to meet him. It’s been an excellent time. Thank you.

Adrian
Good, thanks. And what about you, Wendy?

Wendy
Yes. I wasn’t quite sure what I was coming to, but I was relieved to find it is set in an absolutely beautiful location. And also I have so enjoyed especially Don Carson’s and John Piper’s messages. I’ve really been blown away by their passionate delivery of theology.

Adrian
Yeah, it’s been great, hasn’t it? So, Terry, there will be a few people watching this [and reading it] who perhaps won’t know who you are. I mean, I find that amazing; you probably don’t find that amazing. But people do watch this in the States, and also some other places. I wonder if you could, in your own words really, talk a little bit about what it is you do with your life when you’re not in a chalet in Wales.

Terry
Yes, which is pretty rare! I’m based in Brighton on the south coast of England, and I’m an elder of a church there called Church of Christ the King. From there, I travel out with Newfrontiers, which is a group of churches that works in about 40 nations now. In the UK we have about 220 churches, and then globally we’re pressing on towards 600 churches. So I travel a lot. Later this month we’ll be in Russia at a pastors and wives conference, and then we’ll be in the States in May and June, and we’ll be in France with our pastors and wives there from the Newfrontiers churches. So we travel quite a lot.

Adrian
You say “we.” Is that the two of you, or just you, or sometimes a mixture of both?

Terry
We have five children who are all now married and have left home. And we often travel together now.

Adrian
Oh, that’s the “we.”

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
So what does Wendy get up to, then, when she’s not holding your bags? Well, I hope he carries your bags Wendy!

Wendy
Yes, traveling does take up a lot of our time, but when I’m at home I love to be involved in things like Alpha Courses, although increasingly I’m not able to do that. But I do write for various Bible notes such as TWR and Day By Day, the Bible Reading Fellowship, Scripture Union obviously for as well. I speak at ladies’ days around the country, and I’m also engaged in writing a book at the moment.

Adrian
That’s very interesting. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Or are you sworn to secrecy on that?

Wendy
Well, yes, perhaps it is a little bit premature, but it’s about the effect that women can have in a Church for good or bad.

Adrian
Very good. That sounds really interesting. I look forward to reading that, no doubt, sometime in the future. Now you’re going to have to finish it as you’ve said it online.

Wendy
I know.

Adrian
(Laughing) There you go! So, obviously both of you are incredibly busy, traveling an awful lot, all around the place, looking after all these churches. What made you decide to accept the invitation to come here? I know you’ve been involved with UCCF for quite awhile as well, haven’t you? Is it some kind of advisory board you’re on with them, or . . .

Terry
Yes. The invitation came from UCCF. I’ve made a very good friend in Richard Cunningham. He’s a fine guy. I like him. He asked me to be involved with UCCF, and then having agreed to that, I was then invited to speak at their Leaders Forum a year or two back, and had a very happy time working through Romans and then leading Bible studies. And I’ve enjoyed the fellowship. I’m so glad that they have embraced us. We come from a charismatic perspective. Our church life is charismatic. UCCF has not been famously charismatic, but they’re making a statement of openness, and I’ve been received very warmly, both in their Forum, which I’m due to speak at again next year (2009), and then here as well. And so it’s an interesting coming together of people who love Scripture, love doctrine, love the truth of God. And it’s great to have Stuart Townend here, and Phatfish, who come from my home church. We’re very proud of them. Stuart’s written some magnificant songs, as have Phatfish, and I know they are welcomed around the world. It’s great to be together with them here as well. So we’ve enjoyed that.

Adrian
Yeah, and we’re singing the same songs as well, aren’t we? It’s interesting. Those divisions, at least in terms of songs, just don’t seem to be there anymore, really, you know?

Terry
I was fascinated when I was invited to speak at the Keswick Convention, probably three years ago now, and again I felt as the worship took place before I spoke, I think three-quarters of the songs we sang had been written by people in my home church. I felt remarkably . . .

Adrian
What is it about the sea water down there? You guys seem to keep producing singers, don’t you?

Terry
Yes, we have some great songwriters . . .

Adrian
I guess that church is a sort of resource church, really, isn’t it? I guess that would be one way of describing it in terms of—you have all kinds of different people going out and serving in various different way from there, haven’t you?

Terry
I think David Fellingham originally was with us from the beginning when we started our church. We started with 38 people back in about 1980, and David joined us quite early on with tremendous musical skills and devotion to God. He started writing songs that became very famous. And then others joined us like Stuart Townend, Paul Oakley, then his other son, Nathan Fellingham, came through writing songs. Kate Simmonds. More recently Simon Brading. In fact, we’re starting a worship school again this coming autumn, and we trust people will want to book in and come for the monthly program that will take place through this coming year.

Adrian
That’s great. So I mean, coming here, I guess we’re joining hands with people who perhaps years ago we’d never have imagined we’d be joining hands with. I mean, would that be a fair way of describing it?

Terry
Yes, it’s true. For me, when I was first converted from a completely non-Christian background, my sister had joined All Souls Langham Place, and I first responded to the gospel publically there. So I met John Stott on that day. So my roots go back to an evangelical context. And while I was at college, I listened to Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. So one feels so at home with these truths. Then I had an experience of the Holy Spirit, opening up the gifts of the Spirit in our church life. Which means we’re certainly not cessationists. We believe in the presence and the power of God. We’ve never abandoned these great evangelical truths which we greatly love and have always preached during this time of enjoying the presence of the Spirit as well—seeing people being healed, and prophecies, and things of that order. So that we can find a very happy combination of those things.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that people are sort of almost feeling that this is a new thing—this combination of reformed and charismatic. I guess it’s newly prominent. It’s something that’s been around, I guess what you’re saying, all along. Is that right?

Terry
Well, I think I’ve always held that position going back many years. Joel Edwards, who has been the Evangelical Alliance leader for some years, said he felt that we at Newfrontiers in England were fairly unique for being famously charismatic and famously reformed theologically. He thought we were unusual. But we’re friends right across the board, and I’m very grateful for that.

Adrian
Good. Thanks.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Today I wrap up my interview with John Piper in this last segment. It is based on the video version of the interview, which can be viewed here. John talks about preachers he listens to and describes the circumtances which led him to the pastorate of Bethlehem Baptist Church. The three previous parts to the interview can be read at the following pages:

• John Piper on New Word Alive

• John Piper on Passionate Preaching
• John Piper on Prayer and Bible Study

Adrian
We have just been talking about studying the Word, and obviously books, but I guess for most preachers, they like to listen to other preachers as well. I guess you’re probably no exception to that. So who have you got on your iPOD that you’re actually listening to?

John
I do have an iPOD. It happens to sit in my speaker base in my bedroom as kind of an alarm clock. But my computer is in my study, and my treadmill is in my study. That’s the only time I ever listen to preaching—when I’m running. So three times a week, for thirty minutes or so, I’m listening to other people speak. So I download them from the Web, usually. Who are the last ones I listened to? I listened to [Don] Carson. I listened to R. C. Sproul. I listened to Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Somebody gave me the whole series of MLJ on Romans. I listen to C. J. Mahaney. I listen to John Sailhammer on the Old Testament. I listen to Carl Trueman on, what’s the topic? I can’t remember. A little while back. Basically, I’m looking for two things—one, contemporary relevant issues that I might want to dig into, or model preaching. So, whoever at that point, and they’re not always the same people, the model preachers and the ones who are talking about the things I feel like I need to get to know about.

Adrian
Okay. You’re obviously deeply committed to preaching and to pastoring, and you’ve been at Bethlehem an awful long time. I wonder, first of all, how did you make that decision to join Bethlehem, and was it a lifetime commitment at that moment, or was that something that evolved? How did it then develop into a long-term thing?

John
I was teaching Bible and Greek for six years at Bethel College from 1974 to 1980. I had a sabbatical and I was working on Romans 9—the book on justification of God—the odyssey basically, Romans 9. And while I was doing that, the Lord, I believe, just kept saying through the words of that chapter, “I will be proclaimed and not just analyzed.” And I couldn’t resist it after awhile. Finally, I began to ask those who knew me best, “What would you think if I left academia and took the pastorate as a preaching pastor?” And they all said, “Do it.” So, in December of 1979, I gave my resignation and started looking for a church. I said, “I’d like to spend ten years here.” Well, they said, “Ten years would be good.” And ten years went by like that. And now it’s twenty-eight. And I have no intention of going anywhere else until I’m done.

Adrian
Do you think that kind of longevity is important for a pastor?

John
It’s important, at least in volatile urban settings. In other words, where there’s a lot of change in the people, there needs to be less change in the pastoral ministry. Where the people are stable, say in a small town that has very little coming and going, the stability lies very much in the people. In an urban setting of growth, with a lot of people in and a lot of people out, there’s no stability in the people. And if it isn’t in the staff and elders, then it’s not going to be anywhere. So the degree to which there is movement among the people, it seems to me to be good. And I think it’s healthy for the pastor himself to press on in preaching in a way that doesn’t redo the same stuff over and over again. I mean, after the first five years I thought to myself, “I would not want to do this anywhere again.” I mean, those first five years are hard. You’re figuring out everything; you’re rebuilding everything. You’re trying to make some changes. And to start all that over again instead of building on it would have felt very discouraging to me.

Adrian
So for you the pull of the church was a stronger pull than the pull of Bible college or seminary?

John
Yes, oh yes. And the reason in that day was because, in the college, I felt like, year in and year out, I had the same age group (18-22). They were culturally basically the same. Their questions were, every year, the same. They always revolved around Calvinism and free will and sovereignty, and whatever. And in the church you’ve got cradle to the grave. You’ve got ethnic and cultural differences. You’ve got people all over the spiritual map on their questions. You’ve got dying and birth. You’ve got weddings and funerals. The reality of the totality of life—what that said to me was — “If this is real, if this Book is real, it will relate to all of that instead of this little slice of humanity that comes to college.” And I just wanted to see the Word of God take root in a people.

Adrian
That’s really interesting. Would you say, then, that part of your development as a pastor and as preacher is just being there in the long-term and seeing that kind of development?

John
Absolutely. I had probably preached fifteen times in my life when I came to this church. I was 34 years old and I was a teacher. I taught Sunday School. I didn’t preach around. Most of my colleagues preached on the weekend in addition to teaching. I said, “I’m not going to do that. I’m going to be with my family in church, sitting with my children at my side and my wife, listening to the Word of God every weekend, and I’ll teach a Sunday School class.” So I had done a few weddings, and I had done a few little sermons here and there. But I was an absolute green preacher when I came to Bethlehem. So all of my development as a preacher has been through these 28 years in the same pulpit.

Adrian
Okay. So, you’re a busy guy because you’re a preacher there, you preach regularly. You go to all these conferences. And I’ve noticed you almost always bring, if not a completely brand new message, at least a newly reworked version of it, perhaps slightly different . . . How do you manage to find all that time? Or is it just that you prioritize that and don’t watch too much TV?

John
I don’t watch any television. I don’t have a television.

Adrian
That’s what it is probably.

John
That certainly helps. And I have a wonderful wife who tolerates a very absent husband, even when I’m home. I ask her—I’m always taking her temperature as we do our dates on Mondays and go out. “How we doing, Noel? Do you want to make any changes?” She’s just so incredibly flexible that I married the right woman. And ever since we’ve been married, I’ve always worked, both in the day and in the evening. I’ve raised four sons, and now I’m working on one daughter. And they’re all married, and they have sons, and they’re following the Lord. So I feel some deep, deep gratification about that. But I always took from 5:30 to 7:00, and that was their time. I ate with them and then we had play time. We were kicking the ball around in the backyard or we were building towers and knocking ‘em down — this is your time. And I went to all their ballgames. A pastor has his own time. He can do whatever he wants. So 3:30 in the afternoon, while other guys are working, I’m banging my fists at the soccer match, or you’d call it football, to make my son, Benjamin, run faster . . .

Adrian
You played soccer?

John
I didn’t — I watched it.

Adrian
But, no, still, I mean . . .

John
Oh, I love it. We try, we try! (Laughing.)

Adrian
You have David Beckham now, of course.

John
Well, he did score a goal the other day. I think it was headlines. One goal out of this billion dollar deal. So . . . where were we?

Adrian
We were talking about football playing . . . you were just talking about all the time . . . .

John
Oh, the time to do things, yeah. The point was that even though I work in the evenings (at 7:00 I’m back in my study or with a book in my hand or at some meeting) and Noel is doing her handwork, or working on her projects, and I’m working away. But, really, the key is — I’ve been in the church long enough that they let me do what I want to do. And we’ve got such diversification staffing, that I’m the preacher guy. They want me to feed this flock on the weekend, and they want me to provide vision for the staff. That’s my title — Pastor of Preaching and Vision. I’m here in Wales, and I’ll be back to preach next Sunday, and most of them won’t even know I was gone.

Adrian
Yeah, sure. You write books. What would be the three books that you’ve written that would be your most important books, in your opinion? Three most important books you’ve written, or three significant . . .

John
I will be interested to watch from heaven to see what the answer to that question will prove to be, because I don’t think my answer really has any authority. I don’t know. Don Carson told me he thought Pleasures of God was the most important thing I’ve done, so I think I would put that in the top three. I’m going to put Desiring God there just because it’s the seminal book from which everything else flowed. And after those two, God’s Passion for His Glory maybe. That’s my [Jonathan] Edwards—Edwards is half of that and I’m half of that. And because Edwards is so important, and that essay, The End for Which God Created the World, is so absolutely foundational to everything I do and what I think, that may be the other one.

Adrian
Great. Well look, thanks very much for joining us, John. It’s just been wonderful to have a few moments here just to pick your brains . . .

John
Yeah. I wish we had more time. Thank you very much!

Adrian
God bless.

Yesterday, in the second part of my interview with John Piper, he talked about passionate preaching. Today, John talks about prayer and Bible study, and in particular, his personal “rhythm” for this important discipline. The video of this part of the interview can be seen here.

Adrian
So, what you’ve described — I suspect there may be many preachers out there saying, “Okay, I get what you’re saying, but how do I get to that place?” You mentioned prayer. I know prayer is important to you. You often talk about prayer in your books. Could you talk a little bit about what your own prayer life looks like? How you get, if you like, connected to God in that way you’re describing?

John
I’ll try without disobeying the Lord’s injunction in the Sermon on the Mount to go into your closet . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
I surely am not a model to hold up for prayer because I have models and I fall short of them. But, my life is a combination of private prayer, family prayer, corporate prayer at church—it’s a rhythm of those things. I try to be with the Lord every morning for an hour or so. The way it works for me is mingling together Word and prayer. I don’t read the Bible for twenty minutes and pray for twenty minutes, or forty and forty, whatever. It’s in and out and in and out. I learned that basically from George Mueller, who said he made the big mistake in his early Christian life of trying to pray for an extended period of time, and his mind inevitably went everywhere except toward the Lord, so he began by whispering up a one minute prayer for help, and then he took the Word and turned everything he’d read into prayer. He said I laid sixty things before the Lord this morning, and I laid them through the Word. And that’s pretty much the way I go about it.

When it comes to praying for things, besides what’s in the text, I pray in concentric circles. The most needy person I know is me. Therefore I pray about me first, because if I can’t be fixed, I won’t fix anybody. I won’t bless my wife or children or the Church. So I pray about this soul and my passion for God here, and then I move out to my wife and my children. I pray for them about whatever was in the text. Then I move out to my elders and my staff, and I name all the staff every day and our elders. And then I move out to the church, and move out to the city, and the nations. That’s the way I pray. And that can fill up a lot of time as God brings different things. I use helps. I have lists. I have lists of the names because I can’t even remember the names of 34 elders sometimes, and I have to say those. And then I use things like Operation World to pray for the nations. I keep it on my computer. I keep it in the book beside my old prayer bench at home.

By the way, I have a place of prayer. In my study there’s a little corner with a built wall, like this—it’s got a bench, it’s got books, it’s got a Bible. So I can kneel, it’s got a little rug. In 1975, so it’s now thirty-two years ago, I realized when I finished graduate school and owned my first home that this home should have a prayer place in it because otherwise, I think if you don’t have a place that’s designated that’s relatively secure, you tend to kind of sit on the couch, cross your legs, put some coffee beside you, and go to sleep, and call it prayer time. You don’t tend to do that if you have a place that’s just set aside for prayer.

Then there’s the family—my wife and I and my daughter—pray and have devotions in the morning. And then we do it in the evening. And then my wife and I pray before we go to bed at night, and read a little devotional called “Daily Life.” So that’s the rhythm—morning, evening, wife.

And then there are eight prayer meetings at our church, and I go to four of them plus the staff prayer meeting. They are thirty minute prayer meetings. That’s all they all. We don’t talk at all. We just sit down—bang! We start praying, and bang! Thirty minutes later we stop and go our separate ways. It’s very . . . and that way they last. I’ve been to one of these prayer meetings for probably over twenty years. The Friday morning 6:30 prayer meeting has been going on for twenty years and I hardly ever miss it, except when I’m on vacation, and there’s absolutely zero conversation, zero nonsense. It’s just you’re there; it’s 6:30, let us pray! It’s 7:00—bang! We’re done! Everybody disappears. And it’s really precious! It’s powerful!

So, those are my rhythms, personal, family, corporate, and lots of others sprinkled in. Paul said, “Pray without ceasing,” so I’m always crying for help. So, “Right now, Lord, help me in this interview!”

Adrian
(Laughing) Yeah! You and me both! So, you pray. Obviously you study the Word. And I suspect most of what you do is fairly standard on that. But do you have any particular hints about how to study the Bible that would help people maybe?

John
H-m-m-m. I’m not a good example there either. My life has kind of been taken out of my control in the last years. I feel like I’m governed by what other people want from me, pretty much, than what I want to do sometimes.

A combination of three things, I would think, is what a pastor would want. One is general reading. And there—what can you say? There’s a billion things to read. You let your own heart and good recommenders, good bloggers, tell you what’s good. And then you don’t waste your time reading what’s bad. Somebody else better read it first. Don’t read it first. And probably you should read something that’s 200 years old, 300 years old, because the new stuff is here today and gone tomorrow by and large. So READING.

Secondly, some more or less systematic way of growing in your knowledge of Scripture. The Bible says, “Grow in the knowledge of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,” so some regular reading and rigorous effort to broaden your understanding of the scope of Scripture.

The third is preparation for what you do. That’s where most of my effort is right now. I languish in the other two and I flourish here. I don’t begrudge myself that too much because what I have found (and this might be encouraging to any of the younger guys pondering what they’re going to do with their lives)—when I left academia—six years of teaching Bible college to do pastoral ministry, I thought, “I’m giving up all my summers (teachers have all their summers to study and write), I’m giving up a small amount of teaching and a large amount of writing opportunities—I’m giving that up for a life of pressure, and administration, and crises, and crunch, and just normal pastoral labors, so will I languish in my ability to see Scripture?”

Continued in part 4 . . .

Yesterday we began sharing the transcript of my interview with John Piper at New Word Alive. Today we continue with John Piper talking about passionate preaching. The video of today’s segment can be seen here.

Adrian
People do talk about you, John, as having a real sort of passion about you. It’s almost like a zeal, I guess. In fact, particularly when you’re preaching, I certainly experience that, having actually only heard you for the first time in the flesh last night, and so many people afterwards were saying the same thing. I was just blown away by the passion, and also by a sense of the presence of God that you brought when you were preaching. I guess that’s probably the best way of describing it. Is that something that you’re aware of in some way for yourself? Is that something you can explain a bit as to why you feel that other people experience that? Is it something you feel yourself when you’re preaching as well? How did that come about? Because I know, for example, that Lig Duncan said that when he heard you preach at Together for the Gospel, he felt, “Boy, I’ve never preached before. I’ve never done it.” So what is it about you? Is there something special about you? Do you have some kind of secret you can share with the rest of us?

John
I don’t usually feel that way when I’m done preaching, okay? I talked to Don Carson one time, and I regard Don as a very effective communicator and a brilliant person. He mentioned to me that he regularly walks away from his events feeling that he’s blown it, which made me feel better, because I don’t think you can ever quite know what God’s doing. At the times that I have felt bleakest about the way I did what I was supposed to do, others have testified to being helped. And the times I felt liberated, free, engaged — Did anything happen in them rather than just in me? So, I’m very suspicious about the way I feel about my preaching. I doubt myself regularly that my assessment of what just happened is accurate. Which helps me and hurts me. It means I never feel very excited about what I’ve just done, and it means I don’t fall out the bottom because I say, “Well, God can do what he wants to do. You know, Balaam’s ass can accomplish what he wants, so he might use that, even though I felt terrible about it. So I’m a lousy judge when it comes to saying, “Was there a presence of God, or was there an anointing, or was there an effect?”

I just know that what I want is the gift of self-forgetfulness in what I would call a full engagement, a full passion, a full zeal with what’s there in the text, and the reality of God in and through the text. I want to see him, and know him, be engaged by him, be thrilled by him, say it with whatever effectiveness I can, and let the chips fall where they will. And that, as far as my own subjective awareness goes, that rises and falls. One Sunday I feel thrilled. I feel met. I feel carried. I feel helped. And others I don’t. But that doesn’t correlate necessarily with what God is doing in the people out there. So, to me, an effective, experienced sermon would be when I forget myself. I’m not thinking, “Oh, I’m doing well here,” or “I’m doing badly here,” or “That was an effective comment,” — anything like that ruins it for me. The gift is when you’re not outside yourself watching yourself. You’re so here—you’re so here that you’re not at all conscious—there’s no two of you, there’s just one of you, and God and the people, and a transaction is happening that’s a miracle. Because you can’t choose to forget yourself. The act of choosing to forget yourself is self-awareness. So it’s a gift. It’s a phenomenal precious gift in the moment. You pray for it ahead of time, and it may come for twenty minutes and then you lose it for ten, and you’re thinking about your hands, and you’re thinking about your notes, and you’re thinking about the faces out there, and it’s all discombobulated, and then it may be taken away in the moment, and you’re free to . . . you go, and you wake up ten minutes later and — What was THAT? You know? That was free!! So that’s what I’m after.

I think there are ways to cultivate what I’m talking about. It basically is cultivating God-centeredness. It’s cultivating prayer. It’s cultivating a serious engagement with the Word. It’s cultivating asking certain kinds of God-centered, Christ-exalting questions. There’s a focus and a preoccupation. And then my root Christian hedonism, I mean, my root philosophy of life — whether you are satisfied in God really does make a difference as to whether you can glorify God! That’s a huge thing! It’s a theoretical construct that I think is in the Bible, but it has a practical effect because I really believe that if you’re not passionate about God, you won’t glorify him as much. If you’re more passionate about football than God, you glorify football. If you’re more passionate about food or cooking or sex or money or work or the stock market than you are about God, then that’s what gets glorified. God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. That construct of reality has an effect on how you pray about your life and how you live you life.

Continued in part 3 . . .

Yesterday was Friday and therefore it was the day that we usually turn to Piper. I have not forgotten that tradition, nor, incidentally, have I forgotten Lloyd-Jones Monday—it’s just that there has been a lot of other material to get out there, and I haven’t wanted to do more than a post a day at the moment.

I actually have another project which I’m currently working on, and which I plan on telling you about in a few weeks or so. Believe it or not, thanks to spending some time planning and writing ahead, and also to the efforts of my transcriptionist and editor, Annette, this past few weeks have actually been quite light blogging work for me. Please pray for me that God would grant me unusual grace, inspiration, and self-discipline at this time.

Anyway, today I thought we would share the transcript of the first video segment from my New Word Alive interview with John Piper. The video can be seen at Piper on New Word Alive and Spring Harvest.

Adrian
Hi! My name is Adrian Warnock and I’m here with John Piper. We’re here at New Word Alive. I can’t say the name of the town [Pwllheli], but it’s in North Wales in the UK, about six hours away from London. John has very kindly agreed to be interviewed here. But he’s also specifically asked that we would pray together before we start. So, John, let’s just share a word of prayer, shall we?

John
Father, we lean on you for words that would come to our mind that might be helpful or useful to other folks. So, for the sake of your name and for the good of others, we ask that you would cause us not to go down any rabbit trails that would be unhelpful, to waste our time, or spin our wheels. And we ask that you would guard us from error or pride or anything that would be dishonoring to Jesus or harmful to the Church. And so draw us into a conversation that will be edifying, I pray, and an honor to the Lord Jesus. We ask this is his name. Amen.

Adrian
Amen. Well, thanks for joining us, John.

John
My pleasure.

Adrian
Really, the whole purpose of these interviews is to try and get a bit of a glimpse of the man behind the preacher, as it were. So just to start with, I’d love to know how you came to the decision to be here. There seems to be a lot of you Americans coming over here—you’re here, Don Carson is here in the UK today at this conference as well, and later in the year Mark Driscoll’s going to be at a conference in Brighton [as well as some meetings in London]. Why do you guys keep coming?

John
There’s a narrow and a broader answer to that. Let’s go from the broader to the narrow. The broader answer would be—when I was here doing my sabbatical at Tyndale House in Cambridge, I got to know the folks who did the book, Pierced for Our Transgressions.

Adrian
Oh, yes!

John
They asked me to do the forward for it. And that got us into a conversation about the larger evangelical situation in Britain, and for whatever reason, I found myself very very akin to their cause in upholding the penal substitution of Christ—his work on the cross in our place as precious beyond words. I don’t know why, but they thought that my support would be helpful. Why that is—I’m just an ordinary American pastor and nobody over here knows me, I thought—so what’s the deal with doing the forward for this book or whatever? And I discovered that evidently my voice has (and this is ironic to say it here) I thought it had, up to this point, a kind of unifying effect because I’m contaminated with charismatic influence . . .

Adrian
(Laughing) I like that . . . !!

John
. . . and I’m reformed to the core—like I say I’m a seven-point Calvinist—that sort of thing. And so that’s an unusual combination. So I’ve been to the Leister Conference with the Banner of Truth books, I’ve been to the Brighton Conference with what, Newfrontiers?

Adrian
Yes, that’s right.

John
And I’ve been to FIEC, and I’ve been here now, and that seems to be broad. So evidently my role is to function as a kind of voice that can attract a broad array of evangelicals. [Ed: Piper has also spoken for the Proclamation Trust and other UCCF events.]

So that’s the bigger reason. I like serving that purpose, so if I can serve that purpose, I’ll come over. I didn’t know that, but I’m told that, and I’m pleased to help draw exegetically serious, Bible, gospel people, whether charismatic or not, together. I think that’s a wonderful calling. So that’s one.

The narrow one is that this event was born out of a tension at Spring Harvest over the whole issue of the nature of the atonement, and I think the place that this conference, New Word Alive, came down on—what Christ achieved for us and how he achieved it in bearing God’s wrath, absorbing it fully, removing it, propitiating it. That historic, traditional vision of what Christ did is exactly right and precious. So, when I was asked, “Would you come help us get this started?”—that question wouldn’t have made any sense to me without the broader piece, but given what I was being told about my voice, I thought, “Well, okay. If you think I can help, I’ll be happy to help, because I believe in the cause.” So those two things coming together—the broader function of my voice kind of spanning certain tensions in Britain, and this issue in particular—made this a very attractive event to me.

Adrian
Okay. Well, it’s been great to have you. What’s your impression of the event as a speaker, and also as a participant?

John
Well, I’ve only spoken once, and then I’ve attended one thing ahead of time, too. The responsiveness of the folks has been positive. Now I have to measure my words because British folks (laughter) are less responsive than what I’m used to!!

Adrian
Are you talking about the stiff upper lip here?

John
I don’t know what I’m . . . I don’t know what it is, but I mean, I’m looking around in here during that kind of worship and I’m expecting a great deal more engagement than I’m getting, so I just kind of adjust my expectations to the kind of human being I’m dealing with (Adrian laughing), and if I’m at a more, you know, lively place, I’ll expect that. Here I’m pleased to settle in with my expectations kind of in the middle, and it’s been good!

Adrian
I think it’s partly a cultural thing.

John
Oh, it’s absolutely cultural, there’s no doubt that it’s cultural. That’s what it is!

Adrian
Yeah, because I guess some people are more or less expressive in worship based on who they are.

John
Exactly. It’s partly genetic, partly cultural, partly religious and convictional.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

John
So those three factors together make you who you are. We’ll all that way.

Continued in part 2 . . .

This is the second part of a two-part interview with Don Carson, which began yesterday. That segment can be read here. I previously shared the video of this interview here.

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Adrian
So obviously from your own story, and also in your current role, you must have seen lots of people come through that path. Do you have any thoughts about how the Church can best develop its future leaders, or how, indeed, those people who might be beginning to feel similar stirrings to you, all those years ago—how do we turn somebody who is keen on God’s Word and might show some potential into a future preacher or future leader?

Don
It’s hard to answer that in just a few sentences. 2 Timothy 2:2 insists that senior people ought to be looking for junior people who will prove faithful in passing on the gospel yet one more round. And that means inevitably that they should not only challenge them as to what they are going to do with their lives, but provide them some venue for service, some test of gifts, some beginning ministry, supervise them, mentor them, challenge them. Not just say to them, “Go and give a talk here,” but work on the talk with them, listen to it, offer critique, make sure they are growing, give them things to read, put them in situations where they’re outside their comfort zone and have to bear witness to this sort of thing, see if they grow and are flourishing spiritually and mentally. And then with time, discerning people will begin to see if there really is potential there, and the individual himself may begin to see this as part of God’s gifting and calling. I do think we ought to be more proactive in tapping people, while still recognizing that finally the thing must be confirmed by God himself. Yet, nevertheless, if 2 Timothy 2 means what it says it means, then it seems to me we ought to be a little more proactive than we have sometimes been.

Adrian
Yeah, I guess that’s right. It’s interesting that so far you haven’t mentioned seminary at all in that. Do you see that as more “down the line” then? That it’s not just a question of pick someone, send them off to Bible college, and you’ve got an instant Church leader then?

Don
Well, a seminary can’t guarantee that. A seminary can contribute very powerfully some of the components that are there. As I said earlier, there are not many local churches that can give you a really good grounding in Church history, Greek and Hebrew, good exegesis, disciplined reading of the text, and so on. Not many. And the accumulation of a good number of former pastors and missionaries and so [forth] on one campus—you can pick their brains in all of these areas. That’s got to be really important. But some of it is learned on the street. In the Anglican system, that works out in curacies and so on, and ideally it works out in the independent system with assistant pastorates and so on. But even before they go, ideally they should have some exposure, some testing. And that might work through being a staff worker at UCCF or it might be in the context of a local church. But by and large, I’m not too keen on someone working, let’s say, in computer science flat out, and suddenly saying, “I’m called of God. Let’s go.” It’s usually a little more complicated than that.

Adrian
Right.

Don
And ideally, there needs to be at least some testing and growth within the context of a disciplined mentored ministry first.

Adrian
Yes, okay. Is there anything that you think that guys like you can do to help those pastors who, for whatever reason, haven’t been educated at a Bible college, and now they’re right in the midst of preaching every week. How do you see that? I know it’s difficult sometimes to say, “All right church, I’m off!”

Don
Yeah. There’s no automatic formula. There are some people who are so gifted by God that they can be self-taught and do an excellent job. Who is going to throw stones at a Martyn Lloyd-Jones? But it would also be wrong to think that Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the typical person. There are a vast majority of ordinary ministers who are going to do a lot better if they can have some time for disciplined study. But, on the other hand, if the force of circumstances makes that sort of thing impossible for fiscal or other reasons, then there are a lot of things that can be done. For a start, the English language, above all languages on the earth, is blessed by resources—books, magazines, both in print and now increasingly on the Net—the resources are fantastic actually. So what you need ultimately is some mentor or guide to steer you into the right sort of list, the right sort of priorities—You read this, then you read that, and then you read something else, and so on—and that, of course, was what Wesley did with his young men. He had a list of fifty books that he expected all of his trainee preachers to read and so on.

Adrian
Do you have a list like that yourself?

Don
I don’t have a personal list, but I’ve often created them for individuals in particular circumstances.

Adrian
You prefer to . . .

Don
To custom make it in some ways. But, increasingly, there are often courses online, too, and maybe weekend or night school courses that are available in a place that’s within driving distance. There are a lot of different patterns that are available today in one fashion or another.

Adrian
Sure.

Don
So, for those who are willing to be disciplined enough to take the time and really work at things, setting aside a day a week, or a day and a half a week, for something other than preparation for the next talk and visitation and all of that. Yeah, it’s possible to get quite a lot of upgrading in the context of your own study.

Adrian
Right, excellent. And I guess, even a conference like this is helpful to somebody to come and be exposed to teachers a bit more than they perhaps would in their local church.

Don
It’s part of it. There is a danger at these conferences. You hear a man with a gift of a John Piper, and you will inevitably come away blessed, and you’ve met with God, and that’s a great thing. But on the other hand, most of us are not going to be John Pipers. So it’s also possible to come away feeling a wee bit, in some sense, discouraged or threatened, or “I can never do that!” So it’s important to get the right thing from these conferences. At conferences, in the big marquees, the ordinary pastor does not normally have a voice. And I think that it is important to learn faithfulness in ministry, fully recognizing that most of us will be ordinary pastors . . .

Adrian
Very good!

Don
. . . and learn to be faithful in that frame of reference. Which, of course, is why I wrote the book on my dad. It wasn’t that I was trying to write a big critical biography. It’s not that. Get the right priorities, the foundations, in terms of faithfulness, what ministry means, what discouragement looks like, what suffering looks like, and so on, and the joy of the Lord within that matrix, or else you will have a romantic view of the ministry that is almost certainly going to lead to discouragement.

Adrian
I guess also there’s a lot of people here as well who will never be ministers.

Don
Yes, of course.

Adrian
What would you say to them?

Don
Well, in an event like this, it’s just like a different question in terms of training. At a place like this, the people are going to get somewhat different things out of it. The huge number of students are being exposed to teaching, Bible training, their own student tracks, and the encouragement of meeting with a whole lot of other students, and so on. Some come from small CUs, and just to have a thousand students together is itself a huge blessing. And some come from really small churches likewise, where to have about three or four thousand people singing at the same time and hearing the Word of God—all of that is itself a great encouragement. So there’s not only the content, there’s the sense that “This is the Church of the living God.” And God is calling out his people. They’re not to be discouraged. These are the foundations. This is right. And rejoicing in God in all of his context. It can be an enormous encouragement and anchor, and even vision for what could be for the future. For all of those things, too, we need to be thankful to God.

Adrian
Yes. So, for anyone who is watching this on the Net thinking, “Should I come to New Word Alive next year?” — what would you say to them?

Don
Well, I’m not a very good salesman. What I would say is that if you want to have a serious week of serious Bible teaching that is, nevertheless, full of corporate worship and meeting of new friends and an opportunity to pull aside and read and think, as well as listen and study and learn, I’m sure this would be a week well spent.

Adrian
Thanks very much for your time, Don. I know you’ve got to prepare for the next talk. Thank you for joining us.

Don
My privilege. Blessings on you.

I had the great privilege of talking to Don Carson in April at the New Word Alive Conference, when this interview was recorded. I have already shared the video of the interview here.

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Adrian
Hi! I’m Adrian Warnock. I blog at http://adrianwarnock.com/. and I’m also privileged to serve as part of the leadership team of Jubilee Church in London. I’m here at New Word Alive, together with Don Carson, who has kindly agreed to answer a few of my questions. Thank you for joining us, Don.

Don
My privilege.

Adrian
Excellent. So, Don, you’re obviously a busy man. You do all kinds of things—write books and lecture, and all the various things you do—and yet you, and John Piper, and later this year, Mark Driscoll, all sorts of American guys keep coming over here. Why do you think that is? Why do you come?

Don
The Church of Christ is world-wide at the end of the day, and partly because of Trinity’s reach, we serve many countries, and partly because of my own roots over here (I lived here for nine years, my wife is English), and partly because there is a camaraderie in the ministry itself. Not only do we come here, but there are a number of Brits who come to where we are, and then we might even meet up in Kuala Lumpur. That’s the way the Church is, increasingly. There’s a global reach, and we lean on each other, gain support from each other, and try to bring glory to Christ in different ways in different parts of the world.

Adrian
Fantastic. Well, we’re certainly glad you’re here. I have very much enjoyed listening to your talks. What’s your impression of the conference as a whole?

Don
The buzz I’m hearing (but I’m the outsider) is that people are really grateful for the Bible teaching, not only in the big sessions, but also in a lot of the seminars and so on. After John’s material last night, for example, on suffering, there was one woman in a wheelchair who said that she had found this one of the most encouraging things she had ever heard in her life, and the whole conference is worth it just for her, isn’t it?

Adrian
Yes!

Don
And then when you realize there are five thousand people who are receiving blessings from God from his Word in one way or another, it’s something for which to be incalculably grateful.

Adrian
Yes. I guess there’s no real substitute for gathering people to hear God’s Word, is there really?

Don
That’s right. That’s right.

Adrian
Whatever context it’s in. And it’s interesting because I’ve just been talking to John, who obviously gave up theological life to become a pastor. And I guess you’ve devoted your life to training pastors. Is that a fair way of describing it?

Don
Yes. I started off in pastoral ministry. He started off with theological . . .

Adrian
So you did it the other way around?

Don
I went the other way around. And there are dark moments when I wish I hadn’t. But you can’t second guess either yourself or God all the time. It’s not right. But about fifteen years ago I almost left Trinity to go to a church. It was a church near a major university and I wanted to do the sort of thing that John is doing. I had two or three senior men in the ministry, both already at that time in their early 70’s, descend on me and tell me in very authoritarian terms that I just must not do it because they were afraid that if I did I wouldn’t reserve enough time to do some of the writing I was doing.

Now whether that’s right or not, I don’t know. You offer yourself up to God and try to do what’s right. But I would say that the front line is the local church. And there is a sense in which seminary is a back-up slot. The front line is the local church, and the first impetus towards ministry and towards stamping people for what ministry ought to be should be within in the context of the local church. And then a good seminary, a good theological college, helps to provide the kind of training and further exposure to more technical knowledge, a grasp of the languages, and this sort of thing. Virtually no local church can provide that, and yet it’s really important for those who teach in such places, nevertheless, to be pastors first, because if they think of themselves of teachers and scholars first, then they tend to produce teachers and scholars. So there’s a stamping, not simply from the course material, but from your own values, what you dream about, what you think about. So, at our seminary, we always want to hire a certain percentage of faculty who wish they were in the pastoral ministry, or else quite frankly, we don’t want them. Now, they have to be academically competent and all the rest, but we don’t want people who just want to be in a seminary. We want people who in many ways would prefer to be in the local church. So, that’s as close as I can come to explaining where I’m at.

Adrian
Oh, that’s good. So, of all the many books that you’ve written, Don—this is again a question I asked John about his books—but of all the books that you’ve written, what would you say would be the most important two or three books—the ones that perhaps people should start with reading, let’s say?

Don
I have no idea how to answer that because people find books are important for different reasons. So for some people working through the front end of post-modernism, the 1996 book or whatever date it was, The Gagging of God, they found very helpful at the time. On the other hand, widely read by pastors was my John commentary, for example. I just don’t know how to answer that sort of question.

Adrian
I guess it’s what fits that person.

Don
That’s right. And as you say—What should they read first? Well, an awful lot depends on who they are. If they’re a lay person, [they] might start off with a book like Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount or something like that. I just don’t have a formulated answer for that. For pastors today who are in small churches and sometimes feel discouraged and wonder if their life is worth it, what I’d now recommend is the one that came out just a month or two ago called Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor. It’s short—only 160 pages— and it’s really on my dad. He was a quintessential, ordinary pastor in many ways. He never preached in another country. He never wrote a book. He was never a conference speaker or the like. Most of the congregations most of his life were 30 people. But he exemplified faithfulness in some pretty grueling circumstances. He nursed my mother through the Alzheimer’s years. He was a church planter cross-culturally moving from the English to the French side of Canada, and had a passion for faithfulness in all kinds of small ways. Yeah, it’s not so much a critical history as a collection of our memories of him and a lot of his diary entries and so on as he struggled with these kinds of things and tried to be faithful in small corners.

Adrian
I’m guessing that he was probably one of the main influences on you growing up and into ministry, was he?

Don
Not directly. When I left home I had no intention of going into the ministry. In some ways I was closer to my mother. Nevertheless, his pattern certainly has stamped me. But I started off in chemistry and mathematics. I had no intention of going into the ministry. That came about by other things. But, undoubtedly, in all kinds of subliminal ways I scarcely recognized, his pattern has affected me. But it wasn’t a kind of direct thing—“Oh, I want to be like Dad!” sort of thing. It wasn’t that at all.

Adrian
So who did influence you most to make that kind of jump from chemistry to theology?

Don
That wasn’t a single step either. I worked in a research lab in Ottawa for the federal government in air pollution. I discovered that the people in this lab—I had a good budget, I had a good project, I enjoyed what I was doing—but most of the people in the lab were either resenting it and waiting for retirement or, alternatively, chemistry was their god. And I didn’t fit in either camp. I was enjoying it, but at the same time another chap and I were trying to start a Sunday School in a new church in the upper valley, and that became more and more important to me as time went on. I remember a chorus that I learned as a boy playing out in my mind again and again:

By and by, when I look on his face,
Beautiful face, thorn-shadowed face;
By and by, when I look on his face,
I will wish I had given him more.

And in that autumn, I heard a sermon from a man—I think I’ve only ever heard him preach two or three times—a sermon on Ezekiel 22, where God says, “I sought for man to stand in the gap before me for my people, but I found none.” And God used that in a powerful way in my life so that I wanted to cry with my whole being, “Here am I, send me!” But none of that was planned.

Another earlier step was the minister of the church I was [attending] in Montreal said that he wanted me to be his assistant one summer. And I said he had confused me with a theological student—I was chemistry. I never did go and do it, but it was the first time I started thinking about it because some minister had tapped me on the shoulder and said I ought to be thinking about it. So there were many different things that God used providentially to woo me away from chemistry and science and towards vocational ministry.

Continued in part 2 . . .

This was shown at the New Word Alive conference earlier this year. I have to say that it is one of my favorite passages of Scripture in the whole Bible. This Sunday, why not just take in these glorious words in a fresh format.

In yesterday’s segment Nathan and I discussed the importance of theology in worship songs. Today we move on to talk a little about the event we were both attending and his thoughts on being a reformed charismatic.

Adrian
We’re here at this New Word Alive event, and obviously have heard all sorts of teaching from some of these big names like John Piper, Don Carson, and others. I don’t know how much of it you’ve been able to get into with everything else you’re doing. Have you been in many of the sessions?

Nathan
Yeah. I’ve gone to all of Don Carson’s morning Bible readings so far, which I think have just been astounding—really, really good. Don’t ask me anything about it, but . . .

Adrian
No, no. I suppose what I was thinking—what I was going to ask you actually—when you come here from the context in Brighton, a lot of people think of charismatics as being kind of airheads. Are you coming here and thinking this is just totally alien to what we’re used to, or are you thinking, “Yeah, We’re learning stuff, but this is very consistent with our heart and where we’re at?” Where we’re from?”

Nathan
Yeah, I think theologically it feels very much in sync with where we’re at. I think in terms of people’s expressions of worship, I think it does feel a lot more conservative to what we’re used to. So, yeah, I think I would love for, in some ways, to be able to bring some fresh expression to the worship in a place like this. And Stuart’s the ideal guy for leading worship. Because of the songs that he writes, people warm to him very quickly, but he can also push things out a little bit and take people further on. That’s probably the biggest thing really—just how people express their worship. Obviously, people can express it in different ways, but there are some pretty strong words in the Psalms about exhorting us to praise and knowing a little bit about how the Hebrew people would have done that, with a lot of body movements and a lot of excitement. Obviously cultures are different, but I think there’s something in praising in a very kind of vocal and “full of energy” way that just seems right to me.

Adrian
Yeah, I guess so as well. I mean, the thing I’m feeling is that the people here are really deeply in love with Jesus, but maybe they express it in a slightly different way. Were you picking that up as well in the worship? I really felt like, in your gig for example, as the gig went on you could see that people were warming up and getting into it, and actually in their hearts, they were really really enjoying it.

Nathan
Yeah, I think so. We certainly feel very at home here. The feel of the site proved great.

Adrian
There’s no one swinging from the rafters yet, is there?

Nathan
No. That’s right, that’s right.

Adrian
Was it not “swinging from the chandeliers?”

Nathan
Yeah, yeah. No, there’s none of that! (Laughter) But, yeah, we don’t feel at odds with anyone here, so it’s great.

Adrian
It’s actually really exciting to see in this event a marrying of the charismatics like us—nutters like you and me—and people who are not really from that background at all. To see everybody here together, respecting each other in that way, is quite cool.

Nathan
Yes, it’s wonderful. Yeah, very good, very good.

Adrian
Just a little bit about the whole charismatic thing. You seem to be quite unusual, to some people anyway. I mean, I’ve grown up with it and it’s quite normal for me, I guess, but this notion that we want to marry reformed theology with a sort of vibrant experience of the Holy Spirit. Do you want to talk more about what that means to you as an individual and to the band?

Nathan
Sure. Again, I think that Terry Virgo’s distinctive really is that he is reformed theology, but very charismatic. I know that’s what people always say about him. And in a sense, it’s Terry’s church, and groups of churches that I’ve grown up with. So, in some ways you only begin to learn what you are by hearing other people say it. “Oh, right. That’s what we are! I thought we were just getting on with it.”

Adrian
It’s a bit like if you were color blind, isn’t it, and you’ve never seen color. And then one day something happens and you can see color. And you’d say, “Oh, right! So that’s what it is!” Or the other way around. If you lost color and people started saying, “Hang on a minute . . . ”

Nathan
Yeah, for sure. It’s just what we have known, really. But we’ve seen a lot of diverse expressions of Christianity in our travels over our time, and been very comfortable with people who are even more nutterish than we are. We enjoy that from time-to-time and then . . .

Adrian
You go both ways. Sometimes they’re more nutty and sometimes they’re less nutty.

Nathan
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The whole spectrum of nuttiness where we fit. But, yeah, I think certainly seeing Terry’s passion for the Spirit, and for the gifts of the Spirit, and for charismatic worship, coupled with not a kind of flakiness in our theology, and not a kind of looseness with that, I think, is wonderful. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else.

Adrian
I think there’s one of your sort of more “bandy” songs, if you like, rather than worshipy songs, but I’m not sure where that distinction always lies. I’m not a musician at all. I’m just not quite sure. I used to play the guitar a little bit, but I never got . . . . It’s funny. I got to the stage where I knew all the chords, but I never could quite learn how to do the rhythm properly. I mean, I could do it in theory, but . . . And I was like—something’s got to give. So, in fact, it was really when I got married. My wife was like, “Adrian, this is very loud and not very helpful.” So I stopped practicing. But anyway, I just have no rhythm, you see. (Laughter)

What was I going on about? I’m losing it. It’s been too long. Oh, yes—the songs! One particular song, and we must finish soon. But there’s one particular song from your more bandy ones that really, I think, expresses that whole kind of Holy Spirit thing—it is that song called “Holy Spirit.”

Nathan
Yeah, yeah, yeah . . .

Adrian
I have to say, the first time I heard that I was actually listening to the CD that it’s on. I don’t remember what the name of the CD is—what’s the album it’s on?

Nathan
It’s Guaranteed.

Adrian
From Guaranteed, yes. And I was just in the car, and was actually just driving, listening to music in the background, and not really thinking about it, and that song came on. I had to stop the car. I was just in tears, overwhelmed and it’s like there was a hunger within me for more of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit’s power—that whole thing. I just wonder if you could share a bit more about that song. Where did it come from? What does it mean to you?

Nathan
Yeah. It was actually Mike, our keyboard player, who wrote the song. I think I had a little bit to do with some of the melody, but it was really his. The majority of the words were his. Yeah, I think it’s a great song because it has that refrain at the end—“Fill me up each day, Fill me each hour, Fill me with your love, Fill me with your power”—so something kind of simple and “Come Holy Spirity,” but the whole rest of the song is really talking about who the Holy Spirit is, what he does. It just goes into more depth. It’s kind of something I think might challenge us because we don’t sing that much about the Holy Spirit, and we kind of sometimes don’t really know that much about him. So he just had a real heart to write a song which was a bit more comprehensive. Actually, Matt Redman, listened to it once (I was in the car with him) and he said, “I think that’s the most comprehensive song on the Holy Spirit I’ve ever heard.” And I think it is quite unique in that way. You’re not allowed to say ‘quite unique’ are you, so it IS unique. (Laughter) We did it at the concert here the other night. I was really keen to do it because I had some friends here who are kind of less charismatic. A friend of mine said to me, “After hearing that, it was like, it was not that any things have changed necessarily, but it’s like I can’t argue with any of the stuff that’s being said there. It’s just truth.” And then, again, the response at the end for us—“fill us up.” We need more of the Holy Spirit. So, yeah, it’s great. I think it’s a very important song, actually.

Continued in part 5 . . .

Yesterday in my interview with Nathan we spoke about writing songs for worship. Today we will move on to talk about the theological thinking behind the songs.

Adrian
It’s actually quite interesting, because already from talking to you, it’s like your songs are so obviously full of theology—I mean, that’s coming across just in talking to you—and I’ve always felt like that in listening to them. They’re also full of passion and kind of “real life” situations, I guess. And that combination, together with modern music, is actually quite rare. Where is that coming from? How do you have the sort of richness to be able to do that and still also be kind of “cool”?

Actually, by the way, I must just say [this]—I met some students last night (and actually you can listen on the blog), and just at the end of our chat (we were talking about the Piper talk last night), right at the end I said, “Oh, and by the way, I was in the Phatfish gig!” And they said, “Hey, that makes you really hip and young and with it,” and I was thinking “Great! That’s really cool!” So you’re still hip . . .

Nathan
Yeah, that does surprise me. I had no idea we were still hip. I thought we were old and “has been.”

Adrian
Clearly you’re not.

Nathan
That’s good, that’s good!

Adrian
Anyway, I forgot what I wanted to ask you now. Do you remember?

Nathan
It was kind of to do with how the richness of theology in songs and . . .

Adrian
Not with being hip . . .

Nathan
Yeah, and how we can still be hip . . . yeah!

Adrian
. . . and still be theological . . .

Nathan
I have no idea. No, I think we’ve just always been encouraged by the sort of church that we’re in, with guys like Terry Virgo, and my dad, and John Hosier—we’ve always been encouraged to put good theology into songs. It’s where my roots are; the sort of songs my dad used to write – such as putting Ephesians 1 to music. It’s just what I’ve grown up with. Just the thought of writing—I mean, occasionally songs don’t have to be as weighty, it’s not like they all have to be really weighty, but to not write any songs like that—it never even has come into my consciousness that that should be done. It’s just always been drummed into us that it’s important what we’re saying. Just the realization that people do go away singing songs, and therefore if we can put good truth into songs, then it’s only going to help the body of Christ, really.

As far as that marriage with being hip, I guess the thing is—just to clarify that I don’t particularly think I’m hip—I do have a desire to write good music as well. I don’t think great songs come about by just finding great theology and trying to put it to “any old tune will do.” Even if it’s a singable tune, I think I’m a believer in the marriage of truth and beauty. I think when you marry great truth with something that is beautiful in terms of music, that’s really when stuff can come alive and people can latch onto it, and the music actually serves as an extra thing to help get the truth home—that’s really my desire. So, in terms of the music, I am dedicated to learning my craft as a musician as well, so in terms of listening to bands, listening to good music that’s out there—that’s the quest for me. It’s also a quest to get my theology as great as possible, as well, to obviously say it all in the context of trying to love God more. It’s all part of what my life is, so when the two things can marry together and people can be, in some way, blessed by it, then, you know, I’m just thrilled as anything.

Adrian
Is there any specific way that you try and make sure that your theology is right in the songs. Is there anyone that you ask to help you who will check things out, or have you got degrees in theology, or what?

Nathan
(Laughter) No. Yes. I’d certainly, well yes . . .

Adrian
Yes to the degrees?

Nathan
Yeah, I have about three degrees! (Laughter) No, I have no degrees at all! Certainly I often run stuff off my dad. When I was first writing songs, I was in his house, so I would just run stuff by him and he would comment on stuff. I’ve sent, I’ve kind of run things past all sorts of people at different times, oddly enough. I think John Hosier, I’ve put stuff past before, and Joel Virgo. I even sent something to you once, didn’t I?

Adrian
You didn’t have to say that! (Laughter)

Nathan
No, I know, . . . I think over time you get a bit more confident in terms of what you’re saying, obviously, but I still feel like I’m drinking milk really when it comes to this—I feel like I’m just at the beginnings of a journey. I mean, sometimes I read through some of my songs and think, “Wow! God was really gracious to me in terms of being able to pen something almost beyond where my understanding is in some songs. I’m catching up still—you know, we’re all on that journey. If I’m unsure about something, then I definitely try to find somebody and just kick it past them. It’s an interesting thing for me. It’s not something that I take lightly.

Adrian
I guess what I’m hearing from that is that you’re very much a part of a theological family almost. Is that a good way of putting it? Within the church and all the people you know?

Nathan
Absolutely! Absolutely our church holds to teaching the Bible systemically and having good theology, holding it in very high esteem. So, yeah, it’s just part of the very fabric of who we are. So, yeah, for sure.

Continued in part 4 . . .

In yesterday’s segment of my interview with Nathan, we ended by speaking about how many worship leaders have emerged from his home church, Church of Christ the King, popularly known simply as CCK. Today I ask him about writing songs for worship.

Adrian
The Brighton Newfrontiers church is an amazing resource, if you think about all of you as a group, not just Phatfish, but all the other guys you just mentioned. I mean, you guys write a lot of songs that are used in a lot of places, don’t you?

Nathan
Yeah . . . yes, for sure. Of course, Stuart Townend is probably the key guy in those terms. His songs have obviously gone around the world and are sung as much as anybody’s at the moment. Songs like In Christ Alone and The Power of the Cross seem to be right up there among the most-sung songs in the Christian world at the moment. I’ve had the privilege of being able to write a few that people have taken hold of as well, and Paul Oakley has written some really big songs which have gone ‘round the world. It’s a great privilege. We’re just grateful that we get the chance to do it, really.

Adrian
I know some people don’t pay that much attention to who writes songs, so could you just say (I know you’re probably too embarrassed) which songs that you’ve written are the ones that are most widely known? The one that comes to my mind (I think it’s one of yours) is There Is A Day That All Creation Is Waiting For. I just love that song—it goes on, doesn’t it . . . “A day of freedom and liberation for the world . . .when hurt and pain will cease,” and it talks about our light and momentary troubles achieving a glory for us. I just kept thinking of that song this week; I mean, you did sing it in your gig, but when John Piper was speaking about suffering—that’s the one that I immediately thought of. I must confess, I’m not one of these people who always pays much attention—so what other songs have you written that people sing more?

Nathan
There is a Day is probably the second biggest song I’ve ever written in terms of how far and wide it’s gone. Holy Holy is the song that has actually gone the furthest. The chorus is “Lift up his name with the sound of singing . . .”

It’s funny to me, really. I wrote it when I was about, I think, 17, and I wrote it really quickly. And ever since then I’ve been trying to better my skills, hone my skills, you know, be diligent in my skills, become a better song writer, and the one that I wrote really quickly when I was very young is the one that’s gone further and people know the best. So you just put that down to God’s sovereignty, really. Others I’ve written are one called Awake Awake O Zion, which has got around a bit, and Come Let Us Worship is one. And there’s probably about a hundred songs called that . . .

Adrian
Tell us a few more words of that one . . .

Nathan
The chorus is “You are God, and you’re worthy to be praised, and you’re good . . .” I mean, Stoneleigh was—that was kind of the era where songs probably got most profile. I usually write about one a year for Stoneleigh. To You King Jesus is another one. Jesus Christ the Holy One is another one. So, yeah, I’ve written quite a few. Some of them get better notice than others, but, yeah . . .

Adrian
What about the one, O God of Love, I Come To You. Is that yours?

Nathan
Yes, that is actually. It was predominantly my wife, Lou’s, but we wrote that together. But that one really was her kind of main theme, and I was just around to help shape it and form it a little bit. So, yeah, again, that one has gone out quite a long way.

Adrian
I heard of a bit of an interesting back story on that one, but I may not have heard it right, so what is the back story on that, if you don’t mind me asking.

Nathan
I’d quite like to hear yours, actually! (Laughter) I think it kind of came out at a time there was a young girl in our church who was diagnosed with cancer, and she did actually end up dying. It was obviously quite an intense season in our church—just going through that sort of thing as a body of people is a pretty intense thing. Everybody who was close to her talked about her love for God, and her peace, and how her face shone. It was incredibly moving, even though I didn’t really know her—you can’t help but be moved by it. I know Lou was moved by it. I think a lot of the words of that song came out of that—not just the frailty of our bodies, but the fact that God is always before us and behind us, and he knows our frame, and he knows how we’re made. So there was all that stuff. But the chorus actually just came out when Lou and I were leaders of a small group (or whatever they were called then—cell groups probably, I don’t know—like a youth one). We were just worshipping round one day, and Lou just started singing the chorus—which is quite a simple chorus—but started singing that out, and that song was kind of born there and then, really.

Adrian
That’s the one — How Good It Is To Be Loved by God — that one?

Nathan
Yeah, yeah.

Adrian
Oh, no — How Good It Is To Be Loved by You . . .

Nathan
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Adrian
See, I almost know the words . . .

Nathan
Yeah! I’m impressed! That’s good! (Laughter)

Adrian
Are there any other of those songs where there’s a back story that’s worth telling about? I mean, not just that it sprung into your head in the shower, but anything else that’s worth saying?

Nathan
Well, I think There is a Day is probably one I’d go back to. I was reading a book called the Discipline of Grace by Jerry Bridges. It’s not really a book about the second coming and our future in heaven, or anything like that, but there was obviously something that he put in there, a page that I read—that chorus literally just descended on me like—instantly. I can’t put it in any other way. It was like I got so excited by reading what I was reading (I can’t even remember what it was!) but I guess it was something related. But the chorus, “We will meet him in the air and we will be like him, and we will see him as he is . . .” and then that “Oh yeah!”—it was just genuinely what was in my heart. I remember I was in my bedroom. I slammed my fist down on the bed. That was genuinely what it was—it was like, “Oh YEAH!!” It so gripped me—so just from there I kind of started looking up some simple passages and, you know, I did the whole kind of following Scripture links to this one, and I’d follow it through my Bible and just came up with various lines, and really felt God’s grace in putting it together. A lot of people said to me, “It’s a great theological song.” You have some guys who really do know their stuff theologically, and it’s like, “Yeah, it’s just God’s grace!” I mean, in a sense, it’s just the Bible put to music. But just the flow of it seemed to land really well, and it seems to catch people. It actually gets used at funerals quite a lot as well. I have one story where loads of people got saved—I mean, not 100 percent to do with that song obviously—but that song playing a part in it, playing a part in somebody’s life who recently became a Christian and then actually died suddenly. The song was sung at his funeral, and the family and friends heard the gospel preached, and loads of people were saved. It’s just mind-blowing when you hear things like that and think a song that I’ve written—well, to just be able to play a small part in that is just awesome. It’s wonderful.

Continued in part 3 . . .

The following is an interview with Nathan Fellingham of the band Phatfish. More information about the band is available on Phatfish’s website. The lead singer of the band, Lou Fellingham, also sings solo and has just released a new album, Promised Land.

I recorded this interview at New Word Alive and have already shared the audio, which is available here.

Adrian
This is Adrian Warnock here. I’m actually standing outside of the main marquee, right near the edge of the site, looking out over the beach. And the tide is out. I can see sand, and I can see sea, and I can see hills, and I can see clouds—and it’s sweet! But I’m also here with Nathan Fellingham. Nathan is from Phatfish,and there’s all sorts of things he’s involved with—so I’m going to ask him a few questions about what they’re up to and about the event here. So, first of all, who are Phatfish?

Nathan
Well, Phatfish is a band that’s been together for about fourteen or fifteen years now. The backbone of that is myself and my brother, Luke, my wife, Louise, and Mike Sandeman. The other guy, Alan Rose, who was with us for about five years and actually left a few years ago, is now pastoring a church up in York, which is great for him. So we have, in recent years, been using various different musicians, depending on what the event is. We’re a band who is dedicated to serving God through our music—through writing songs that help express our worship and help encourage others to express their worship to God; sometimes songs which are teaching songs—songs that as you listen, hopefully, you can be edified and encouraged; essentially through putting a lot of Scripture to music; and just songs that talk about life, our own experiences, and how God is such integral part of our life. The way we outwork that really is through songs and through playing music.

Adrian
Sounds really cool. So whereabouts do you do this playing music? Do you do gigs or what?

Nathan
Yeah—a whole mixture of stuff. We do a lot of them. We don’t do as many Phatfish gigs as we did in years past. There were certainly seasons where we were out as much as we could doing a lot of youth clubs, youth events, town-wide events, Christian festivals, Christian conferences. But at the moment we’re probably most often at Christian conferences. Often we get asked to play for people like Stuart Townend or Kate Simmonds and others, kind of playing as their support band, I suppose, helping them to lead the worship. And on the back of that, often we get to do a few of our own songs and sometimes the occasional gig as well, which is under the Phatfish name. So, yeah, this year we’re actually playing here at New Word Alive at the moment, and we were at the Kingsway Children’s Ministry conference earlier on in the year. We’re going to be at the Brighton Leaders Conference, as well as New Day, and a couple of other Kingsway conferences at the end of the year. We’re going to be up at Keswick in July as well again, leading with Stuart Townend. So, yeah—a lot of conferences this year.

Adrian
I often jokingly say you should be called the band with many names because you’ve been the Stoneleigh Worship Band, haven’t you? The New Word Alive Worship Band, the Brighton Worship Band, Newfrontiers Worship Band, Church of Christ the King Worship Band. And, as you say, accompanying all these other guys. But I think I’m right in saying that a whole bunch of these people you’ve just mentioned are all in the same church, aren’t they? Is that right?

Nathan
Certainly Stuart Townend and another guy, Paul Oakley, are in our church, who a lot of people would know. Kate Simmonds, who we’ve played with, used to be at our church. She actually moved out with her husband and son, Matthew, to Sydney, Australia, to be with the Pete Brooks, who used to be the senior pastor at our church in Brighton. That’s probably about eighteen months ago now that they moved out. So, on top of that Simon Brading is obviously an up and coming very gifted worship leader who a lot of people would know, is also at our church. Yes, Brighton does seem to collect musicians and worship leaders, definitely. It seems to a bit of a hub for creativity for people like that.

Adrian
I think Matt Redman was there for a little while as well, wasn’t he?

Nathan
He had a brief sojourn there. Yeah, he was there for a while. We still have a great relationship with him. He’s just up the road, in a Church of England church.

Adrian
What is it with Brighton? Is it something in the sea water?

Nathan
I think so, yeah. (Laughter) I don’t know. I mean, my Dad, Dave Fellingham, has been one of the pastors, one of the elders, at the church there, really since it started. I think his kind of influence and his heart for worship and heart for creativity, I’m sure, has a part to play in that.

Certainly he was very encouraging to Stuart in the early days, and I’m sure, to Paul Oakley and to Kate Simmonds, and certainly to us as well. He definitely had a lot of the vision that started Phatfish. He really had a desire to have a band who could operate in the realm of leading worship, but also were comfortable in a pub, playing songs to a secular audience. I say that with quote marks, but you cant see that! [laughter] So, yeah, he really encouraged us to do that. I think certainly his influence would be big.

On top of that, I guess I do feel that God has something for us in Brighton. I feel like there is almost a bit of a mantle on us as a church to be people who are leading the way, I suppose, within our network of churches for sure, and I hope for God to do more things in the future based out of that. I look at what we have and think, “Yeah, there is a reason.” I do believe God is in it, and I do believe that he’s got a work to do with us with this collective of worship guys and creative guys in Brighton.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Following the roaring success of the 2008 New Word Alive conference, it has been announced that the event will take place next year over two weeks and be in the same venue in gorgeous North Wales as it was this year. This is a change from what was announced during the event itself, when it was believed it would need to move.

To get an idea of what happened this year, there are, of course, many posts here on my blog, including videos of interviews and summaries of the talks.

You will probably need to move quickly to book since, although there will be double the number of places available in 2009, the on-site accommodation sold out very fast and I predict it will do so again. Over the two weeks, God-willing, around 8,000 people will gather to worship and hear God’s Word.

The bookings will open shortly, but if you are not already on their database, go over there now and ask them to send you a brochure. or, have a look round and watch the promo video

UPDATE
The written transcript of the third part of the interview is now available. It can be read here.

I also interviewed Terry in 2007.

This video is part of a series, yesterday I continued my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. Wendy provided some insights into her life as Terry’s wife and her travels with him. Terry defined what he means by “modern day apostles.”

In this segment, Terry speaks more about why he decided to work together with the New Word Alive conference. He states, “I truly believe God wants to bring together people who love Scripture and those who love life in the Holy Spirit.” We also talked about how he chooses who to work with, and in particular what led him to invite Mark Driscoll to this year’s Brighton conference.