Begining tomorrow I will be live-blogging the Newfrontiers conference, Together On A Mission. (I will shorten this to TOAM.)

My posts will all be found on my TOAM08 label page.

You can download the mp3s of this week’s talks by subscribing to the new Newfrontiers podcast, which will be an easy way for you to get access to the mp3s for free.

Newfrontiers is a family of reformed charismatic churches that began in England and now reaches into many nations. Last year we had 53 nations represented in Brighton; maybe this year it will be more. My live-blogging from TOAM07 and TOAM06 is also available.

The main visiting speaker this year is Mark Driscoll. I have a number of posts about him, including notes of sermons and an e-mail interview.

If you are interested in finding out more about Newfrontiers, the following interviews with leaders in Newfrontiers are helpful, some of which were carried out at New Word Alive. There is also a comprehensive Newfrontiers website.

TERRY VIRGO — Leader and founder of Newfrontiers

• Written report of an interview at Jubilee Church

• Video and transcript of an interview at New Word Alive 2008

STUART TOWNEND — Co-writer with Keith Getty of the hymn “In Christ Alone”

• Report and mp3 of an interview at New Word Alive 2008

JOHN LANFERMAN — Leader, Newfrontiers USA

• Transcript and mp3 of an interview at TOAM07

NATHAN FELLINGHAM — Songwriter and member of Phatfish

• Transcript and mp3 of an interview at New Word Alive 2008

As we drew to the close of the first segment of my interview with John Lanferman yesterday we began to speak about reformed charismatic churches. Today I begin by asking him if he believes there is a hunger for such churches in the USA. You can also download the audio of this interview.

Adrian
Yeah, that’s so important, isn’t it? So as you look out over the nation, do you feel that there is a hunger in the US for these kind of churches, a desire to see them?

John
Absolutely. I think especially an emerging generation, the 20’s and 30’s generation, pretty much in the US left the church. But we’re seeing a lot of these people coming back into the church. In our own church, that would be the largest demographic. And these are young people who really have a value of the foundations of the past, historical Christian faith would be important to them, but also a mixture of what the culture has created—a desire to experience something in the Spirit. They’re not afraid of that. So you have this desire to be rooted in something that’s stable—historical Christian faith—but at the same time, wanting to experience something of God in the Spirit. And are not afraid of spiritual manifestations; in fact, they’re hungry for that. Hungry to experience the very real presence of God for themselves in a very tangible way.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s interesting because a lot of people are talking about that kind of resurgence of reformed faith in the US in the 20’s and 30’s [age group]. It’s interesting to hear you saying that a lot of those guys are also looking for something quite experiential.

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
I guess people like John Piper are probably a major part of that, aren’t they? Because the way he preaches—it’s all about knowing God, and [having] a kind of relationship with God, and valuing God, rather than just purely as an intellectual thing.

John
Yes, and he’s taken some fairly strong stands. He actually is not a cessationist. He actually does believe . . .

Adrian
Most people are really surprised when they hear that. What? John Piper is not a cessationist? You’re kidding!

John
That’s true. And he has huge influence in our nation among the evangelical community. I think his welcoming in of people like C. J. Mahaney, and even embracing guys like Mark Driscoll . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . and just to see what’s happening there encourages me quite a great deal.

One of the negative things that’s happening in the US as well—you have the emerging church. On one end of it you have a very orthodox guy like Mark Driscoll, and a bit colorful as well. (Adrian laughing) While on the other end you have people who have a greater degree of relevancy, so doctrine and theology is kind of fluid, and they want to adapt that to culture, and so that leads to heresy. And that’s a frightening thing. But there’s a wing of that emerging church that is very much moving in that direction as well, as you probably well know. That’s a frightening thing in the US because there’s quite a large following of that group as well.

Adrian
That’s right. And I think some of those historic doctrines are being questioned . . .

John
They are!

Adrian
. . . in a way that you’d be surprised at. But that’s not unique to the US either. As you know, we’ve had some issues over here with that, particularly with regard to the atonement and things like that. I mean, is the atonement such a big issue in the US as it is over here in the UK, would you say?

John
It’s not with mainline evangelical groups, but I think with the emerging church, the people who are on one side of that very much—that’s one of the questions. And even the desire to be culturally relevant and accepting of alternative life styles has led people to make an adjustment as to how they approach that. And they won’t make categorical statements any more. So they’re standing on sand rather than the solid rock of the Book. So I think that’s a concern as well. These guys are fairly media savvy, and it’s a subtle thing . . . to find a way into churches.

Adrian
I think that’ right. With the advent of the media and the Internet, well, I know this only two well. It’s possible for people to hit above their weight. I mean, Here am I — just some guy in a church in London whose blog is read all around the world. And I think that happening with a lot of people, and you can have influence, either for good or not good, far above, actually, what you are accomplishing on the ground in that sense. Or over what you feel you should have influence.

John
Yes, absolutely, that’s true.

Adrian
I think it is a bit concerning, isn’t it? How some people are causing us to drift away from truth.

John
The thing that’s concerning about it is that—not [only] are they gifted and charismatic, but in actuality, there’s the element of Christianity about them. So you’re dealing with something different than people who are totally secular. So it’s a subtle thing. A lot of people are not very scripturally astute. It’s easy to be pulled along in that train.

Adrian
Don’t you think that it’s quite interesting when you look [at it] historically? A lot of these ideas have been tried before, haven’t they?

John
Yes, they have. And the thing is, they always end up on a dead-end street. They don’t have a long cycle. They come around, but ultimately God is very protective of his Church. He is very zealous for it. And the church that’s rooted in biblical value and persuasion continues on. I’m very encouraged in America about the uptick in church planting. I don’t know if you want to talk about that or not . . .

Adrian
Yeah, church planting is great, yeah.

John
In the US, over the last two decades, there has been a deterioration in people who are committed to regular church attendance. It’s averaged a 10 per cent decline in each of the last ten years—so 20 per cent less are now involved in church activities, or even actually community activities, than before. But now, groups like Acts 29, and on a much, much smaller scale, but I like to say, Sovereign Grace, and Newfrontiers, and various other church planting movements, Global Net—these groups that are coming to the forefront planting churches, training people, are based on orthodox Christian faith with a real sense of mission. So missional churches are emerging among us, and many of them are growing, seeing lots of people saved. So I actually—while we have these rather alarming trends, I see much to be very excited about in the US.

Adrian
Yes, oh yes. Just for the sake of those out there—I know some people sitting out there are thinking, “What exactly is a missional church, John?” How would you define that?

John
A church that understands that it exists for the express purpose of carrying the gospel to the next door neighbor, to the person in the next block, to the person in the next city, state, and nation, and they exist for the purpose of being carriers of the gospel. So they are involved, not only in proclamation, but they are involved in changing the whole culture of a community. They would be people who would be involved in cross-cultural evangelism. They would be people who would be involved in changing the social justice—be involved in that ministry to the poor—so they have a desire to see the whole community that they are involved with, the towns they are involved with, changed and made into a kingdom community. It’s people who understand, “We do not exist for ourselves, but we exist for them.” So the way we spend our money. the way we staff our churches, the way our churches feel, the way they operate, have that outward appeal. And it’s a God-centered approach to humanity rather than an inward, “What about me and my needs?” It’s a man-centered approach.

Adrian
That’s very good. So that’s really very much what’s on your heart as you go across the nation, isn’t it? I guess that’s what you’re saying—to see those kinds of churches multiplied.

John
Absolutely—if we can get outstanding churches in each of these 100 large cities, and out from that, begin to reproduce ourselves. Because I’m fanatical on reproducing churches. We must not just plant churches, but we [want to] see churches that view themselves as reproducing churches, multiply themselves, raise up leaders, give themselves away, spread out in the communities and the nations beyond.

Adrian
It’s just so exciting to see what God is doing in a nation, but also what he’s doing around the world, and to be able to link up with that. I guess we’re back to the conference in a way. Because that’s what this is all about, isn’t it? Together on a Mission.

John
Yes, it is. And I think what’s interesting is how we help each other. The different nations, different men, bring different things into the pool. I’m receiving from others. I’m receiving from my friends in Africa, or my friends in India, and so it’s even the in-between times when we’re kind of sharing ideas back and forth and getting on board how we can assist one another. Because it’s just not about our own little patch. It’s us owning the world together. It’s us saying, “We want to see the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ grow and expand to all the nations of the world. So, I have just as much a vital interest in what’s happening in Africa, or what’s happening in Europe, as I would even in our own place. Because we have to own the whole vision of God. I do know that I have a particular responsibility for a sphere.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But God has called us to work together. I think that’s the joy of what’s happening here in this conference, and who we are in Newfrontiers as well.

Adrian
Yeah. And I guess when we gather together like this, significant words can come as well, that shape us really.

John
It’s true. I think it’s in the worship that God is speaking to us. It’s in the preaching as well. But also in prophetic words that come to us. And you can just see the impact that’s happening across the room . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . guys coming together and buzzing about this, and what God is saying. So it’s quite helpful actually.

Adrian
If my readers are sitting there in America somewhere thinking, “You know what?” This all sounds great. I’d love to be in a church like that.” How would they find out more?

John
Well, they can come to our website, of course. Just type into the search engine Newfrontiers USA, and there, of course, they can find us, and where our churches are located. Of course, I would welcome any contact there in St. Louis where we are based.

Adrian
Excellent. Do you run any conferences, or anything like that, there in the USA?

John
Yes, we do. We have an annual Leadership Conference that’s hosted by us there in St. Louis. But we have also moved out regionally. Originally we were just a small cluster of churches in Missouri, but now we have established cluster churches in New England, and we’ve moved into the Pacific Northwest, and now we’ve moved into the Southeast as well. So we’ve established regional events because we are a family of churches, just not a fraternity of leaders. So churches come together there for envisioning, and leadership events happen, as well as 20’s conferences, and events for teenagers. Just this next week, we’re gathering several hundred teenagers, not just to go to a camp and somehow be refreshed and go back all enthusiastic for a couple of weeks, but actually to be involved in a mission and social action. We’re going to go out into the streets. We’re going to get with children in the neighborhoods. We’re going to begin to work into that community. So we have lots of events by which we’re bringing people together. There’s something that can happen when a group of churches come together that simply cannot happen with a church on its own. And there is just a combined strength of coming together around the singleness of vision and purpose that not only helps with what we do together, but actually helps when people go back to their own churches. They’ve caught something, see? And they take it back with them. So we have several events like that. And men’s conferences and ladies conferences that are happening throughout the nation. So immediately when I go back, we will have a One Blaze event, which is the teen event, in St. Louis. And from there, I’ll leave the next week and go up to New England, and we’ll have a big family camp out there where we gather the churches. We bring in international speakers, as well as myself, and we’re envisioned.

Adrian
Great. Sounds great. It’s just so exciting to hear about what God’s doing over there in the States. Thank you so much for joining us, John. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with my readers before we close?

John
I’m very much enthused about what God is going to be doing in the US, and what he is doing now. I’m thrilled when I see the moving of his Spirit in more prononced ways, as well as the value of the Word. I’m particularly encouraged about missional churches that are sprining up all across our nation. So, I wouldn’t want to end here just with some of the other things we’ve talked about—alarming trends, etc. I’d like to says that I’m actually more encouraged today than I’ve ever been in my life in regard to what God’s doing in raising up his Church in the US.

Adrian
Excellent! Praise God for that. We wish you all the success in the future, John, and I look forward to hearing more about what goes on in the years to come when you’ve reached those 100 cities.

John
Yes, thank you, Adrian.

Adrian

Next week the main Newfrontiers International conference of the year starts. To whet your appetite, I thought I’d share the transcript of an interview I did at Together On A Mission 2007 with John Lanferman. The audio for this interview is also available here.

John oversees a team of leaders who serve the churches in the Newfrontiers—USA family. His primary focus is leadership training, church planting, and supporting churches in the States. John and his wife, Linda, are a part of Jubilee Church in St. Louis, Missouri. His blog is at http://johnlanferman.blogspot.com/.

If you can’t make it to this year’s TOAM conference, I will once again be live-blogging it right here. It’s still not too late to arrange to listen to one of Mark Driscoll’s other speaking engagements in the UK.

John
I think it’s magnificent. The preaching has been outstanding. The worship is amazing. God’s presence is here. He is speaking personally to people. He’s speaking to us as a family of churches as well. It’s wonderful to welcome 53 different nations into this setting.

Adrian
Yes, I think it’s so important to underline that, isn’t it, because people probably think, “Oh, it’s just a British thing,” when really it’s almost like a world conference, isn’t it?

John
Absolutely, it is. And just to make connection with people and find out what’s happening in their nations, and to see that we’re really on the same page as it relates to the kingdom of God. There’s not really a national distinction there when it comes to that.

Adrian
Yeah, I know. It’s been great. Some of the preachers have come from South Africa and . . .

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
You’ve got guys from Africa, other parts, all over, haven’t we here?

John
Yes, it’s wonderful.

Adrian
I guess really as well, this conference is perhaps a little bit different to some other conferences, isn’t it, in terms of the family feel. I don’t know how easily we can get that across to people who are at home reading the blog.

John
I think that’s the interesting thing. When you come together and you see people, and some of the people, of course, we know as well. But even in meeting new people, there’s a sense of community that seems to be automatic, and it’s just great to see people mixing it up, enjoying each other.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that’s right, because that doesn’t happen everywhere we go in conferences, does it?

John
No, I know some conferences that you may visit, and some I’ve visited in the US — I mean, you arrive. If you don’t know anyone or if you have a friend or two, you’re really not connected. There’s not a sense of togetherness on the mission . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
. . . and you break off, you go to lunch, or you go to your hotel room. There’s a sense of — you’re there to pick up information primarily and download information that maybe you can employ in your own situation.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But here it’s a totally different feel.

Adrian
That’s right. And there’s all these kind of little mini-meetings going on in all the breaks, isn’t there? I mean, the little breaks sort of get eaten up, don’t they?

John
All the time.

Adrian
(Laughing). And we’re sitting here and we’ve got what? I don’t know—another hour or so?—before the next session. And you squeeze in a meeting, don’t you?

John
That’s right, you do.

Adrian
But it’s good fun.

John
So it’s a pleasure, I think, as well, the in-between meeting times to connect relationally, talk to each other, find out what’s going on. It’s all part of the whole package.

Adrian
Yeah, exactly. John, I particularly wanted to chat with you because you head up the work of Newfrontiers in the USA, and so many of my readers are from that nation. So, are there many other Americans here at the conference?

John
Yes, there are several actually. We have four of our own local elders from St. Louis who are here, and some of our other staff members as well. But besides that, across the nation, we have representatives who lead churches that are here with us.

Adrian
So are there many Newfrontiers churches in the US?

John
Actually, there’s not at the time. We now have 23 churches in ten different states, but it was just a few years ago, like ten years ago, we had 7 churches in one state . . .

Adrian
Right.

John
. . . so these were churches that already had a history. Terry [Virgo] came over and spent a couple of years and left. It was in that setting, then, that we began to actually formulate who we were together, come together with a real sense of mission. We have churches that have a history, and we’ve been drawn together around Terry, and around the mission there, but obviously there are residual issues, so I think in the first few years there was a need for us to really come together to construct that all through, which we did, of course, and now we’re planting churches all across the nation.

Adrian
Okay, excellent. How do you decide where to go and plant a church?

John
I have, on my laptop, 100 cities, and I won’t be content until the top 100 cities in the U.S.—87 per cent of the nation’s population reside in these cities—so, one by one, we want to tick off these cities. When Newfrontiers started in the US, we were primarily a rural movement. We didn’t have any churches in any major cities. So, first of all, to come together around a mission and then begin to train leaders and set up training programs, to begin to envision people, and then see people move from the rural settings—although we’re very, very grateful; we’re still planting the rural settings—begin to make that big step into city centers. Kansas City was our first church plant; St. Louis (the one I led) was our second plant, and now we are in seven major cities. We’re in Seattle-Tacoma. We’re in Boston. We’re in Chicago. We’re in Nashville. We’re in Atlanta. We’re planting churches one by one into these major city centers, and we want these churches to become reproducing centers, so out from them churches are planted. So we have a fairly ambitious vision.

Adrian
Yeah, it sounds like it. So, what is it about a Newfrontiers church that is, say, different to other churches in the grand? Because I know some people might say, “Well, why bother planting churches? Surely we should just strengthen the ones that are there already.”

John
I think the thing that really draws us together is our sense of mission. Now there are other things, of course, that draw us together. Our very real value of Word and Spirit. We’re an interesting group because, in the US, you have evangelicals and people from various denominational persuasions. You have people who are charismatics. We’re a bit different because we are evangelical in that we are rooted in historic Christian faith. Most of our people would have a reformed theological perception. But we have a charismatic experience. And that’s quite unusual in the US. I think it sets us a bit apart from most other groups—not that there aren’t others that way—but it makes us different, I think, from what you would normally find in the US.

Adrian
Yeah. I sometimes have people writing to me, saying, “Is there a church like that in this place or in that place?” And I often wonder what other groups are there out there that are similar to Newfrontiers in some way. Are there other groups?

John
I would say Sovereign Grace would be similar to us. We’ve had good fellowship with that group. But there’s an interesting phenomenon that’s happening as well because in mainline evangelical circles, people that would have name recognition—guys like John Piper or Mark Driscoll—are, of course, well established in orthodox faith, but as well, are very open to and accepting and believing in certain charismatic expressions. So, it’s an interesting move that’s happening in the US in that regard.

Adrian
Yeah. So there’s a kind of—like what you’re saying—a coming together of the Word and the Spirit in a way.

John
I believe that’s exactly true. We do have other things. It’s a big country. The Christian television market, religious television market, and radio waves are fairly dominated by charismatics that would have a very experiential and often times a man-centered approach . . .

Adrian
Right.

John
. . . rather than a God-centered approach, which of course, is not helpful to be labeled in that particular camp because our root is indeed orthodox evangelical Christianity with a charismatic experience and expression.

Continued in part 2 . . .

No. 24 on the list of the most widely read posts among readers of my blog appeared on July 13, 2007, and provided an audio link to my interview with Rob Rufus.

Interviewing Rob at the end of the Together on a Mission 2007 Conference was memorable, and those who listened to the mp3 will know just how much laughter was a part of that conversation. In December 2007, the written transcript of this interview with Rob Rufus was published as a series on my blog. Any one of those segments can be read by clicking on the links here:

• Preacher Rob Rufus

• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
• Rob Rufus: How to Explore the Charismatic
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today
• How apostles Work Today

It was a real delight to sit with Rob Rufus and Tope Koleoso at the end of the conference for the following wide-ranging interview. I would strongly encourage you to listen to this, especially if you want to get more insight into what these apostolic families of churches look like in practice, or if you are just intrigued to learn more about the Holy Spirit.

You can download the mp3 or listen to it right here on the blog:

Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

• Preacher Rob Rufus

• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
• Rob Rufus on How To Explore the Charismatic
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we’ve never said, “We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!”—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same”—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and “cross pollinate.” It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we finished by talking a bit about the network of churches of which he is a part. We ended with Rob speaking about a team of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/ teachers. Today we begin by asking Rob what he means by “apostles.”

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we focused on Word and Spirit. Today I begin by asking Rob what steps readers who are intrigued by the charismatic experience should take.

Adrian
One of the things I find is that quite a few of the readers of my blog out there—they love the Word, they are Reformed folk—but they are a little bit bemused to discover that there are a ton of us [charismatics] who love the Word in the same way. Actually, a lot of them are quite drawn in, but they just don’t know quite how to make that connection. Perhaps they don’t live in a town where there’s a group they can go to. Maybe they’ve even been burnt by some of these “charismaniacs” we’ve talked about. What would you say to them? They’re sitting at home and are a bit intrigued, a bit fascinated. They want more, but know they haven’t really connected with the Spirit in that way.

Rob Rufus
Yes. Well, I would say—stay with the Scriptures. Never ever dilute or compromise your love for the Word of God! That is our foundation; that’s the bedrock. Then I would just invite the Holy Spirit to come, the Spirit of truth, because he breathed the Scriptures! They are God-breathed by the Spirit himself. Ask the Holy Spirit to come and just touch you and begin to lead you. And He will, because he really is faithful and wonderful. And then with technology today, this access to speakers around the world like the New Frontiers guys who talk about the Holy Spirit, but from a wonderful biblical place. I mean, I don’t think this fear today that the counterfeit, that the devil—and [the Bible] does warn in the last days there will be counterfeit signs, wonders, and miracles—but it doesn’t say that the ONLY signs, wonders, and miracles in the last day will be counterfeit. So if there is counterfeit, it means that the genuine will be there, and we need to find the genuine. We really need to find the genuine.

Adrian
Thanks for that. Just going back a minute then. There you were, coming—Calvinistic, charismatic, or if you prefer, Reformed Charismatic. (I always think the term “reformed charismatic” is funny because it makes it sound like we’re kind of an ex-charismatic group, doesn’t it?) (Section unclear because of loud laughter.) But you obviously did become part of a family of churches—you’re not part of New Frontiers, but you’re part of something—I think it’s New Covenant Ministries? Have I got that right?

Rob Rufus
Yes, New Covenant Ministries International.

Adrian
And I guess that’s a fairly similar group of churches to New Frontiers? Is that right? That’s my understanding.

Rob Rufus
Yes, very similar. We’ve got so much that is so close. Our DNA is so similar that I feel like I’m at home. I’ve got to realize, okay, yeah, I’m part of the family, you know. It just feels so similar.

Adrian
So, how did New Covenant Ministries International come about? Tell us a little bit about the history of that.

Rob Rufus
Sure. It was back in the early 1980’s when God was really moving in ways, I think, across the world, and particularly in South Africa (we were based in South Africa). My friend who actually mentored me, and fathered and birthed NCMI—his church grew explosively. And whatever happens, you know, whenever you have some success, pastors around the country want you to come and tell them about it.

Adrian
So who was that? What was his name?

Rob Rufus
It’s Dudley Daniel. He started traveling around South Africa and teaching about what made his church grow. Then God spoke to him one day on the plane and said, “It’s wonderful what you’re doing—you’re blessing pastors and that, but do you want to spend the rest of your life just blessing, or do you also want to help pastors build the Church?” Because blessings are short-lived, but if you build well, you can sustain the blessing. And God began to speak to Dudley about finding biblical patterns—what are the biblical wineskins? How were churches really governed in the New Testament? He began to see that there were some traditions that we had inherited that were not in line with Scripture, done by very sincere, good leaders. So he began to relate this to some friends. He threw his home open on a Monday, and pastors that were alone, looking for friendship, started coming and relating. And out of that came a kind of a motto that we developed: “Friendship before function.” We have a function into the earth, but we want to be friends; we want to do it with friends relationally, like Jesus did with his guys, his friends. (Too much laughter to hear what is being said here.) God showed us that we are the offspring of Abraham, and that we are (unclear) forces—we’re the heirs of the world. And that from the seed of Abraham God wanted to make the blessing to all nations! So the Great Commission really just complements the oath God took to Abraham—God took an oath that all nations would be blessed. When you take an oath, it’s—what’s the word I want to say?

Tope
Binding?

Rob Rufus
Yeah, binding. So God bound himself to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham. So if the Church balks on that, or hinders it, or stands against it, then God will precipitate a crisis, like he did with Jonah to get the Gospel to Nineveh. So we realized that God was calling us to go to the nations, and we built—with a national team of friends, we developed a mixture of prophetic, apostolic evangelists, teachers, pastors, etc.

Continued in part 4 . . .

As we drew to the close of part one of this interview with Rob Rufus we were emphasizing the need for charismatics to continue to value the Bible. Today we begin with a question my pastor, Tope Koleoso, asked. This is a lightly edited transcript of what was actually said.

Tope
I’ve got to say, I agree with you. Definitely for me in listening to all the sessions that you did, and for us as a church, having taken so many to this conference, and also as a pastor, having the privilege of speaking with other pastors—the response that I’ve been hearing back, certainly from my own perspective, has been that in the talks there has been a depth of theology, not just the push of an experience; there has been this depth of theology as the verses and the references have come out, but you have also told us of the experiences—what this would look like and what God can do. And beyond you describing this, we also saw what God did among us. So those two sides then—the Word and the Spirit—I would say we saw that, but I would say we also saw—I could put it this way—the Lion and the Lamb. There was a real confidence in the way I thought the talks came across, but also the gentility of getting to know the Person of the Holy Spirit. And I wondered—is this something that you’ve always had? Is it a style of preaching that you developed or what?

Rob Rufus
That’s an outstanding question, Tope. As I mentioned in the conference, before I became a Christian I was a Hare Krishna. I was practicing strict Hinduism very aesthetically. One of the things that attracted me to Christianity was that when I went to a meeting where the power of God was being manifested—where cripples were walking and deaf ears were opening and the power of God was there—it made me realize that Christianity can never be reduced just to a philosophy, but it has to declare that Jesus is alive; He is a risen living Saviour. So I came into the kingdom of heaven through seeing the supernatural—I was birthed in the miraculous. But then I had mentors that loved the Scriptures as well. We were kind of like charismatic Calvinists, in other words we had reformed theology of the sovereignty of God and the attributes of God and the awesomeness and the transcendence of God and the love for Scripture. But along with that was this recognition that Paul, one of the greatest apostles and one of the greatest theologians you could ever imagine—raised the dead. He moved in signs and wonders, the supernatural. So I think it’s fraudulent to say we are walking in a New Testament apostolic life if all we are is into the Spirit because that gets quite unusual and flaky and unhealthy after awhile. Or it’s fraudulent to say, “I’m apostolic; I’m into the Word of God, but we don’t have a demonstration of power. Paul had both, and I think that’s what good theology is. I mean, Jesus was the theologian of theologians, and he said to someone—you’re wrong because you don’t know the Scriptures AND the power of God. So he married the Word of God and the Scriptures together.

Adrian
Very good! Very good! So for you, growing up into that whole kind of charismatic Calvinist thing, you sort of laughed when you said it. Did you feel like you were a bit of an oddity? Were you aware there were others out there like that? Or was there just a small group of you and you felt a bit weird? Because that was our experience!

Rob Rufus
Adrian, that’s exactly how we felt! I got saved in 1977, I think, so it was the tail end of the hippie movement. We all had long hair and all of that stuff, and yet with the gifts of the Spirit in operation, we would do expository preaching right through the Bible. We would study books at a time—go through the book of Hebrews chapter by chapter.

Adrian
So your preaching wasn’t always like it was this week?

Rob Rufus
(Loud laughter) Of course not! I was inducted into Christianity through expository preaching, and that wasn’t me; it was my mentor.

Adrian
So you do that kind of expository preaching yourself?

Rob Rufus
I do occasionally. I have been in the church plant in Hong Kong for three years and I haven’t done a book yet in expository form. But we will. That is something I do. But in the middle of all that expository teaching, there were gifts of the Spirit—very passionate outreach and evangelism in the streets. So reformed denominations for whom I have great respect (I really do) who love the Scriptures—they couldn’t quite work us out. We were a bit of a strange case! We were charismatic Calvinists. And yet I feel like in today’s world, I think what’s happening is that a lot of committed evangelical people who love Jesus, who love the Scriptures, are suddenly to their relief, finding out that people who are full of the Spirit and know the supernatural power of God love the Scriptures as well. And I believe it’s giving them a sense that a bridging is taking place. I think, too, that those people who are moving in the power of God and love the Scriptures—we need to be humble and realize that evangelicals have a rich legacy that we can learn from, and I think we can enrich each other.

Continued in part 3 . . .

A few months ago it was my privilege to interview Rob Rufus. The audio version of that interview is available online, but thanks to two readers (Dan Bowden and a friend of Andrew Fountain) who both sent me transcripts of the MP3 lately, I am now able to publish the text version. It has only been lightly edited, so please do forgive us any grammatical errors that come from this being a conversation rather than careful writing. If you want to listen to the interview, the MP3 is available to download on the original post.

Adrian
The Together on a Mission conference has just ended, but I’m here, together with my pastor, Tope, and we’re here with Rob Rufus. Rob is going to talk to us a little bit about how the conference has been for him, and tell us a little bit more about his own church and his own family of churches, and just really share with us about that. So he’s kindly agreed to sit down—he’s probably a bit tired—but we’re going to have a good time, hopefully, this afternoon. So, Rob, first of all, how has this conference been for you?

Rob Rufus
I think it’s been very staggering and astonishing in a delightful way because what I experienced here was almost like the reward of the fruit of a number of years of New Frontiers preparing themselves, building a good wineskin. And by “wineskin” I mean the kind of authority structures we build the church with—biblical values and biblical vision. We are now positioned to really see God come in an amazing way. So I felt there was such a liberty and an openness to God’s visitation, to the supernatural of God, and I think a lot of that’s got to do with the understanding that the churches have on the theology of grace—the understanding of grace—and the security that we have in Christ. So, it’s been an incredibly enlarging time here; just the spirit of faith among the people, the sense of a global vision, and yet doing it together as a team, doing it together in a sense of partnership. So, for me, the overall sense of the ethos and the atmosphere was one of a group of people very zealous, very passionate, full of vision, yet who haven’t kissed their brains goodbye, well-grounded in good theology, sound doctrine, open to the power of the Holy Spirit, and real people who are really friendly with one another and enjoy one another’s company, and that’s been a delight.

Adrian
Excellent! Yeah, and it’s been great. Obviously, one of the features of this conference has been your own preaching, Rob. I just wonder for those who have not been at the conference, and perhaps have been following the blogs—how would you summarize your key message, just in a couple of sentences, of this conference—what you’d like people to take away, because, to be honest, taking notes hasn’t been that easy! (Loud laughter) Well, you could say that!

Rob Rufus
Yes, absolutely! I mean, I’m the worst person for writing notes myself, and then, of course, for people to be able to pick up notes, because I tend to be more spontaneous and impromptu. Probably what I’d like people to primarily take away in a few sentences is that, of course, God is turning up the supernatural—the volume of the demonstration of his power—not just for the sake of sensationalism for us to find ourselves popular or famous because of that, but because he wants to be glorified in the world, he wants to get the world’s attention. The primary essence I would like people to take away is that we don’t seek primarily the power of God, but we seek the person of God. We seek who he is, his glory. Because his power is what he does, but his glory and his presence is who he is, and that’s the only thing that will fulfill people—to know him personally. That sense of intimacy is such a delight; it gives us that fulfillment. Out of that he hides his power within his presence so you can live a supernatural life in a natural way because you’re not having to fast forty days to get the power—you can just walk with the person of God in intimacy and he releases his power out of that relationship with himself.

Adrian
Yes. I guess that some Christians sitting at home listening to this—I mean, I get readers on my blog from all kinds of different backgrounds—they’re going to listen to that and think, “What is this guy talking about? A relationship with God? I thought we just had a relationship with a Book!” What would you say to those kinds of people?

Rob Rufus
Well, it’s like—when I met my wife for the first time I was at university so I couldn’t spend time with her because the university was in a different city. So during the first six months, I could only see her every second or third weekend. We corresponded in those days—it was a long enough time ago it was by letters, not e-mails!—(loud laughter) and although her letters were perfumed and I loved reading her letters, I didn’t have a love relationship primarily with her letters, but with the author of the letters. So I longed to get to see the person who was writing the letter and meet her. So the Bible is, in a sense, perfumed with the presence of God—it’s God-breathed; it’s really his love letter to us. It’s an introduction for us to get to know the Author of the Book. That’s the delight!

Adrian
Yes, very good! So you are not one of those “charismaniacs” who want to throw out the Bible then, Rob?

Rob Rufus
Absolutely not, Adrian! That, I think, is the tragedy. Sadly the charismatics or Pentecostals (to some degree, not all!) have been known as a people who are kind of going on a binge of subjectivity. It’s all self-indulgent. You have got to have theological references to make sure that the supernatural experiences you are having are authentic because we do have the counterfeit in the world today; we do have deception in the world today. The Bible is the foundation that authenticates that we are having legitimate miraculous encounters with God.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Observant readers of my blog will have noticed that I didn’t post any larger photos of Rob Rufus when I spoke about Together On A Mission and interviewed Rob Rufus. One reason for this was that the snapshots I took while we were together were ruined in my hurry as I had the camera on the wrong setting. As a result the color was all wrong and I thought they were beyond salvation.

Well, my MacBook and the wonderful iPhoto software came to the rescue. I have never been able to understand photography software (although Picasa from google was reasonably easy) and so was thrilled to see Tamasin and Henry master it in no time. They took one of the following two photos each and were able to repair them admirably. At moments like this a father is proud of his kids and a relatively new MacBook owner is proud of his laptop!

Pentecostal/Charismatic Post-It Notes has put together a page of short quotes from last week’s conference. Here are a few that stood out to me from his longer list:

• “For many of us we don’t flow in the prophetic because we don’t understand our sonship. We can read many books, but if we don’t get it settled that we are sons, then we will live as orphans for the rest of [our lives] waiting for the command of God rather than the heart of God. The prophetic is not about just hearing words, but about an encounter with a real Person.” (Julian Adams)

• “It is ludicrous to believe in an intellectual way that Jesus Christ is raised from the dead alone — if he’s alive, then he will speak and we will hear! He will act and we will see!” (Rob Rufus)
• “The true prophetic sees the future and brings the future into the now.” (Rob Rufus)
• “It is ridiculous to try and fulfill a biblical vision without apostles and prophets!” (David Stroud)

My buddy, Pedro, kindly helped us with some of the live-blogging, and shared my hotel room. Here are his reflections on the conference.

“Attending the Together on A Mission conference was, to me, a carefully orchestrated privilege from God that I will cherish all my days.

Having so many people from 53 nations and various walks of life coming together all for the sake of Christ was awesome and very encouraging — indeed Jesus is alive. I have attended many conferences that have blessed me and have helped shape me, but TOAM07 was, for me, a command to arise and dig into those things that have been prepared for me from the foundation of the earth and that I will need to do by the grace of God.

During the worship, I stopped a couple of times to observe the lifted hands, the sea of heads, the expression of overwhelming joy on the faces of the people, and the dancing like David, king of Israel — a man after the heart of God — and I couldn’t [help] but see God in the midst of his people (2 Samuel 6:14). I danced like I have never danced. The spirit of worship was evidently upon the musicians and the choice of songs.

I traveled with two members of Jubilee Church, and the brotherly spirit was excellent. I shared a room with my dear friend, Adrian, and that was another conference of its own — it’s wonderful when God binds people together. How good it is when brethren dwell together in unity; it’s like the anointing oil that runs down the beard of Aaron (Psalm 133). Enjoying sharing from the Word and our different experiences, we found ourselves going to bed when [other] people were planning to rise, yet we got to the conference strong and alert for Adrian to still conduct his interviews, as well as blog the conference.

Among other things I learned was to live one day at a time. This calls for faith and is needed now and in the days ahead more than ever before. The Word of God has ever been true, is true now, and will be true for all generations. Without a shadow of doubt, perilous times are coming, and are at hand. It is expedient that those who name the name of the Lord cry out till Jerusalem be made a praise on the earth, and reach out with compassion to those who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ — the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world — the only name given by which men can be saved.

Before leaving the conference, I had direction on how to do a couple of things differently in a very practical way, and truth be told, I believe I have received grace for the task because the teaching that came from those that ministered came with a lot of power (Acts 4:33). I feel very connected to the apostolic vision that the Scriptures set out clearly, and which Newfrontiers has received and is working tirelessly to fulfill.

In drawing to a close, I strongly believe that no one can fully comprehend the depth and breadth of what God in his infinite wisdom has birthed through that conference, but if Jesus tarries his coming much longer, the decade ahead will see, enjoy, and praise God for what many will be able to trace back to this conference.”

I am thrilled to report that the majority of the main sessions, the Mobilise main sessions, and quite a few of the seminars and training tracks are now available to download for free.

Get over there now and start downloading, and keep checking back there for more as they continue to upload them!

Stephen van Rhyn
Stephen is the Lead Elder of Jubilee Community Church in Cape Town, South Africa. He is married to Anna and has two young boys, Josh and Ben, and one daughter, Bethany.

See also Andrew Fountain’s notes from this talk, Leadership Lessons From Moses and Aaron.

Together On a Mission 2007 continues to have an impact as the talks are beginning to be made available on the Net. This talk from Stephen Van Rhyn (otherwise known as ‘the other guy’!) is one of the first two made available online for which you can order a CD.

He took us to Exodus 32. Stephen began by explaining that this story teaches us that leadership matters. There was a direct correlation between the spiritual health of the leader and the spiritual health of the people. What we do matters. When Jesus said the crowds were harassed and helpless, they had experienced tremendous healing where ALL were being healed. This was because the people had no leader. There is no leadership responsibility, however small, that is insignificant. The kingdom of God advances on delegated leadership.

The church advances as it multiplies leadership. We are called to plant growing vibrant churches, and if we are to achieve this, great senior leadership is not enough. We need depth — great leadership at every level.

Aaron was seduced by his own success. We need to remember that we all need help. Aaron forgot that he was there because of Moses, and fell into pride and deception. Proverbs 16:18 warns against pride.

Aaron abdicated his leadership. He tried to give the people what they wanted rather than seeking God. The people are leading and he simply implements the desires of the people. This attitude pervades the Church today — give people what they want, take a survey, etc. We should be courageously leading the people to do what is right in the sight of God. We need to love people enough to give them God’s best even if that is not popular. We cannot simply aim to entertain people and give them what they want!

Aaron called for God’s people to sacrifice the wrong things. They weren’t just sacrificing jewelery; they were sacrificing the Word of God and the presence of God. The ten commandments had already been given.

The Church is often reduced to an echo of the culture rather than a prophetic voice. We should be a thermostat, not a thermometer. Matthew Paris seems to understand the Bible more than many in the Church! We need to be those who have a submissive attitude to the Bible.

The presence of God was to be withdrawn. Moses wouldn’t settle for an angel. Christian maturity is an increased desperation for the presence of God. The gifts can mess up our carefully constructed worship services.

Stephen contrasts Aaron’s response to being found out in sin with David’s response. God can deal with sin, but wants us to own up to it. We cannot fool God. When we are honest we find a God who is slow to anger and delights to forgive us. We need to admit what we have done wrong to the God of grace.

Moses’ response indicated five things from which we can learn:

1. Moses sought God.

2. He wasn’t content with personal success at the expense of corporate failure — he didn’t take the option of destroying the people of God.
3. He didn’t stay static in the face of evil. One man can radically change a nation.
4. Moses called Aaron to account. Senior leadership cannot have an “anything goes” attitude. This saved him from destruction.
5. Moses led and lived for the glory of God.

This past weekend I had the joy of having Mr. and Mrs. Fountain stay in our family home. We had a lovely time with them, and it was an encourgaing time for all of us. We chatted for hours about our shared theology and blogging geekiness whilst Andrée and Anne chatted about their shared interest in various crafts. We got to take them to Jubilee Church, and took Anne to some of the places her family came from.

Perhaps the greatest surprise to me was when Andrew said he wanted to turn the tables on me and interview me, and also Andrée (for the first few minutes at least, before she slipped away!)

Visit Andrew Fountain interviews Adrian Warnock to listen to the interview.

Andrew also took a few shots of Andrée and me:

The following video clip was shown on the last morning of the conference and gives a more professional overview than my own amateur footage.

Here’s a round-up of good posts from other bloggers on the Together for a Mission conference. These will give you an overall impression of their thoughts and reactions to the conference.

Links to Andrew Fountain’s excellent brief notes on each talk have been added to my reports of the messages, and as mp3 downloads become available, links will also be provided to allow you to easily get to the audio of each talk. In addition to the sessions I have covered here on my blog, Andrew also wrote notes on the following main sessions and seminars:

• David Holden: The Holy Spirit and Your Church

• Rob Rufus: Five Ways of Increasing in the Spirit of Faith
• Terry Virgo: The Holy Spirit and Your Church – Baptism in the Spirit
• Terry Virgo: God is Turning a New Page for His People

The Simple Pastor – Refreshed and Recharged

“It was a great time, I just so enjoyed worshipping God with thousands of others . . . . It was great to hear teaching that has equipped me as a church leader and to be caught up in a bigger vision of what God is doing around the world.”

Andrew Cottingham lists some of the highlights and statistics of the conference and says, “Many conferences exist for themselves, i.e. the better they are, the more people will attend the next one. This one exists for what happens back home.”

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 1

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 2

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 3

Dave Bish made a flying visit to the conference, and wrote a long article responding to my report of Dave Stroud’s talk as follows:

“Maybe I don’t hear more because I don’t ask much. Surely it’s not that hard to follow God’s commands like ‘earnestly desire prophecy‘? If God offers detail, it’d be nice to have it. And we might not always hear right, but I think that’s why in Acts 16 Luke adds i’we concluded’/i — which implies some measure of testing went on. On the frontline of mission, it’s not like it’s a tough one to work out. End result: they went and preached Christ. God wants to build his church. He will build his chruch. I want to be part of that. It’s fair to say Together on a Mission has got me thinking. And it’s got me believing.”

Delighted (Ed’s Fallible Thoughts) reports:

“The Holy Spirit was there in power and moving in people, in me, in ways He hasn’t done really before, which was very exciting.”

The Best is Yet to Come also has a series of posts on the conference. Here are links to each article:

On the Way to Glory!

The Weight of His Glory

We Must Have Spirit-Filled Churches

Blaney Bible Blog responds to the conference as follows:

” . . . here is a group that is committed heart and soul to a vision of recovering New Testament Christianity in all its glory and establishing churches that embody this across the globe. Although they didn’t quite say it, they almost said that their aim was to complete the Great Commission by themselves! What’s more, if they had said it, I would have believed them! They are focused on establishing apostolic bases throughout the world; not just the planting of a church, but of a resource church that will be the fountain head of a network—churches that will plant churches that will plant churches . . . “

What was YOUR reaction to being at the conference, or to reading these posts?

If you were there and are getting withdrawals, or you couldn’t make it and want to see or hear for yourself what Newfrontiers is all about, help is at hand! There are already two of the main sessions available on audio to download for FREE from the Newfrontiers site.

Also I found this fantasitic video introduction to the work of Newfrontiers over on YouTube. The video was only designed to be shown in Newfrontiers churches, so it begins with mentioning the forthcoming offering — please don’t be put off by that as no one at Newfrontiers is wanting your money. The rest of the video gives a fantastic overview of the worldwide reach of Newfrontiers and its mission.

UPDATE
In January 2008, the following post was identified as the 24th most-read post here on my blog. The 25th most popular post was “25% Off Logos Bible Software by Libronix.”

Interviewing Rob at the end of the Together on a Mission 2007 Conference was memorable, and those who listened to the mp3 will know just how much laughter was a part of the conversation. In December 2007, the written transcript of this interview with Rob Rufus was published on my blog and included the following segments:

• Preacher Rob Rufus

• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
• Rob Rufus: How to Explore the Charismatic
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today
• How apostles Work Today

***************

It was a real delight to sit with Rob Rufus and Tope Koleoso at the end of the conference for the following wide-ranging interview. I would strongly encourage you to listen to this, especially if you want to get more insight into what these apostolic families of churches look like in practice, or if you are just intrigued to learn more about the Holy Spirit.

You can download the mp3 or listen to it right here on the blog:

Terry Virgo
Terry is based at Church of Christ the King, Brighton, UK, and leads the Newfrontiers team. A well-known Bible teacher, Terry speaks at conferences around the world. He has written several books, including No Well-Worn Paths, Does the Future Have a Church?, God’s Lavish Grace, and his latest, The Tide is Turning.

See also Andrew Fountain’s notes from this talk, The Folly of Achan.

There are a few traditions within the family of Newfrontiers. One of them is that the father of the movement, Terry Virgo, always closes the conference. I always look forward to these messages. He manages to blend an amazing expositional gift with a strong prophetic edge. Last year’s message on leadership was simply outstanding, and I hope that if you haven’t already listened to that message you will do so. Terry is much loved by our family, and if you haven’t yet made his acquaintance, Terry Virgo’s blog and website, as well as my interview with him, are great places to find out more about him.

Terry seemed quite emotional on the video summary of the conference, which they showed us before he came to speak. He said this had been one of the most glorious weeks we had ever had together, and he was not wrong. I feel personally that this week has touched me at least as much as any previous conference I have attended. I always get excited to think of the amazing impact that a conference like this can have around the world.

The reason Terry was drawn to the book of Joshua was because of a sense he had that God was moving us into a new era. Joshua 7 is an astonishing chapter, and in many ways parallels the book of Acts. Acts and Joshua are in many ways similar books with the people going forward into a new break-out of a community.

The army is not a faceless army of robots — rather, it is people who have strengths, weaknesses, and vulnerabilities. We don’t want any of us to be missing as we press forward together. The story of Achan might seem a strange place to take a conference like this during the final session. But Terry explained that he had felt the strong leading of the Spirit to do so.

The previous chapter ended with elation and excitement. Joshua was now famous as an invincible leader with an invincible army. Joshua takes on board the perceptions of those who he had sent rather than wisely seeking God. Then there is a crushing defeat. God had said no one will be able to stand against them. Now suddenly, Joshua is vulnerable and swings like a pendulum to, “We are finished!” He felt there was no future for him. We can feel that. Fear grips us sometimes.

Joshua then begins to cry to God. He doesn’t ask the generals how did you fight? He doesn’t just look to the immediate. What is the big picture? Two different perspectives.

1. What is happening to the Israelites?

   The invasion of the land was the fulfilment of the promises to Abraham, which in turn are a reflection of the plan of God for Adam. It is like a great recovery. Similar to Eden, there is a “don’t touch.”

2. What is happening to the Canaanites?

   At the same time he is blessing Israel, God is also coming in to judge the land. God had said to Abraham that the evil of Canaan was not yet enough. At this time the sins had got to such a state that God was judging gross evil that had affected every aspect of life.

The story turns on the actions of one man. A double-minded man caused the whole problem. An independent assessment results in a secret agenda. One of the soldiers is not persuaded. He isn’t single-purposed. He is finding what God finds unattractive to attract him. He saw. Be careful what you look at. You might say, “I couldn’t help seeing.” The forbidden thing can seem delightful. Be careful of the lust of the eyes. We have a vulnerable spot. We can’t help seeing, but there is a power that can come. Jesus said some brutal words — gouge out your eye. There is a danger in seeing.

David was a man after God’s own heart. Everything about him was magnificent. But one day when he didn’t go to battle he saw something. He is ruined. The path is to shame, disaster, and death. Achan wished he had never ever seen. If I hadn’t gone there, I wouldn’t have seen it. Why then do some of us choose to look? Why do some of us go to the place where you know you will see it? Why are some of us so stupid as to not just catch a glimpse, but we go back to look again? We live in an age where we can hardly help seeing, but don’t go back there.

After he saw, he coveted. He allowed his imagination to captivate him. Obviously we tend to think of sexual sin in this area. But the Bible here is talking about riches. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation . . . which plunges men into destruction. (1 Timothy 6:9) It’s not just having wealth, but the prestige, power, and independence that goes with it. Wealth means that you can tell the rest of the world to get lost. Lust conceives and gives birth to sin which gives birth to death.

So he saw, he coveted, then finally he took. He defied God’s clear command. Like David, he took what he knew he should never have touched. Then, he finally hid. He wasn’t fulfilled. Because it was forbidden, you can have it, but no one else is allowed to know. There is no abandonment and fulfilment of joy like we experienced last night during worship. Instead, they had to hide from the Lord.

Secret sin leads to relational problems. It ruins. Imagine what David must have felt looking in the eye of his general who he’d told to arrange the death of Uriah.

The wrath of God was coming. God looks at our planet today and says, “Enough of this!” In all the joy and light and break-out of the Church, there is also a revelation of the judgment of God. Which side are we on? The whole battle turns on a double-hearted double-minded person. Are we in this together?

HOW COULD THE DISASTER HAVE BEEN AVOIDED?

• Joshua should have avoided self-sufficiency. We need to be fearfully aware of our total dependence on God. Before Jericho, he knew he needed God. Suddenly he thought, “I can do this now.” God wants us to be listening. Beware the lure of independence.

• Achan completely forgot his identity and his purpose. Christianity is an essentially corporate experience. He is in step. Suddenly he gets another idea, and becomes out-of-step. He was not ruthlessly committed to God’s perspective. God is angry against sin. “Who knows the power of his anger?” If we don’t feel anger, then we are not in step with God’s view of our society.

We are part of a body. God told us to make disciples. They did this by forming churches. The only way to become a mature disciple of Christ is to be part of a church. Church is not just for your social life, it’s for your salvation. It kills the desire to sin. It is not all about your personal fulfilment. It is not all about us. We die to self and get baptized into an army, a body, a people. God does love us and has a wonderful plan for our lives, but he wants us to be part of a community to work it out. God doesn’t want a faceless army.

A Christian is a member of Christ. Our fulfilment is found in him. Don’t float. Find a group that takes church seriously. “Elder” isn’t just a title. They are shepherds. They are here for us to be led. It is not that are characterized by the volunteering of self for the benefit of others is what God wants in his Church. We need to have a network of mutual care and support. Let’s abandon the “my rights” concept. The Gospel is totally contrary to that. We need to make space for people and die to ourselves. Let’s live for the people of God. We love the Church as Christ’s bride, his treasure, his workmanship.

We are light. We are meant to shine in the places where we are. We used to be darkness. We are to go to all the world bringing in the light. We died with Christ. We were raised with him. We are seated in the heavenlies. We didn’t get ourselves there. We are a new creation. We are righteous. Now let’s live like it! Christ’s wonderful life was credited to me. He has made us righteous as a gift. Now we must live it out. It’s not so much about “don’t touch, don’t taste, don’t handle.” Legalism doesn’t produce righteousness. Now God sees us as righteous — now live it. We are no longer what we were. Martyn Lloyd-Jones says we need to talk to ourselves. He said, “If you don’t preach to yourself, you are not a Christian.” We are light, what should we have to do with darkness?

The story ends with ruthless execution. It’s a shocking ending for our ears. He was put to death. God said, “I won’t have it.” We see the same thing happening in the midst of a NT revival. A couple lied to the Spirit, missed it, and were killed by God. There are people who have missed it, even in their middle years. Be ruthless. Seek the things above. Set your mind on things above. Put to death what belongs to your earthly body. We need a new body. In the meantime, we must take responsibility for our bodies. Put to death the things that lead to the wrath of God. Why do we play games with the things that mean the wrath of God is coming?

We must put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit. How do we do that?

• Engage with the Spirit. Get baptized with the spirit.

• Enjoy the Spirit. Don t just tick it off as something we have done. Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit. When you are enjoying him and his fellowship, it is much easier to resist temptation. Get full of Him.
• Have the energy of the Spirit. By his presence and power we share in the divine nature. Ephesians 5 is the Holy Spirit-filled life. Enjoy the life of God.
• Have the eschatology of the Spirit. He is the promise of the age to come. He is a foretaste of eternal glory. It’s a down-payment. It’s heaven coming down to where we are now. We are having a taste of the eternal glory. Darkness has nearly gone, the light is coming. Day is at hand. Don’t live in the dark. We are the light of the world. Walk as children of the light. Don’t play around with something less than that.

God poured out his wrath on Jesus so that he could pour out his love on us.

Be ruthless. Say I am not going there any more. I am blocking a channel. I am making myself accountable. Don’t be fulfilled by sin, be ruthless instead. They killed Achan.

The opening verse of the next chapter turns the page and says, “Don’t be frightened, remember who you are . . . now go and take Ai.” Let’s be ruthless, and move on to victory.

I spoke with Tope, who is the lead elder of Jubilee Church, about his impression of this sermon. He replied as follows:

“With forceful passion, engaging delivery of truth, incredible urgency and raised voice, and utter conviction, Terry Virgo preached until he himself was consumed in the sermon, leaving us with an unadulturated view of the Word of God that left us all challenged and transformed, meek and strong, and grateful and amazed.”