I know Rick Warren is something of a controversial figure and I have blogged previously about why I like him.  Here is an interesting post from Driscoll which shows the kind of person Rick is:

I first heard from Pastor Rick Warren perhaps a few years ago. He said he wanted me to fly down to a conference he was hosting, hang out, and get some time together. So, I did, along with a few friends. We learned a lot from Rick and his staff. They were incredibly nice, showed us around, and seemed genuinely willing to do pretty much anything to help us organize our growing church. I even had dinner a few times with Rick, along with a few other guys, and got to ask some questions about dealing with critics and leading a large, complicated organization.

At some point on my first trip to Saddleback Church, I asked Rick why he had reached out to me. With grief on his face, he said that some years prior he had made a list of young pastors he was praying for and thought might be used by God to serve the greater Church. However, over the years he had crossed off the list those pastors who had disqualified themselves through acting sinfully or believing heretically. Over half the list was out of ministry. But I was one of the guys still on the list. So, he was praying for me, concerned for me, and wanted to extend a hand to help me in any way he could. He was very kind, and very genuine.

Since then, he has been faithful to call me now and then just to check in and see if he could encourage or serve me in any way. Every time he calls, I’m amazed because despite how very busy he is, his genuine concern for pastors compels him to encourage many.

- READ MORE at  A Few Stories About Rick Warren | Pastor Mark.

During Adrian’s month away from the blog, he has hand-picked a selection of the most popular posts of the year so far to re-run.  Today we feature, John Piper’s interview with Rick Warren on doctrine and The Purpose Driven Life.

John Piper and Rick Warren are friends who come from slightly different wings of the modern church.  It was great to see them discuss what unites them.  As I keep saying, we have enough true enemies of the gospel at work today that all who love the age-old truths of the good news should learn to appreciate each other!

Click to watch John Piper’s interview with Rick Warren on doctrine and The Purpose Driven Life.

Here are some thoughts in my mind as I think more about the interview I linked to earlier this week. Firstly, Warren and Piper clearly respect and love each other greatly.  There are some areas, especially in style, where they disagree.  But they do so as brothers.  They do so as two people who value and prize the Bible and love the God of the Bible.  They do so as people who tremble at God’s word.  They also do so as two people who actually believe the Bible has something clear to say.  There is a lot of clarity in this interview.  A lot of statements of what they both believe.  And in fact, surprisingly to many, a lot of those statements actually agree with each other.  This is a meeting of minds.  It is a meeting around a Book that they both want to take as literally as it is sensible to do.  The contrast between the way Warren and Piper are able to discuss issues together, and the way Rob Bell and myself ended up speaking past each other could not be stronger.

Back in 2009, I wrote about why, unlike many other reformed bloggers, I really appreciate Rick Warren. So you can imagine my pleasure was as great as some others displeasure when John Piper invited him to speak. A detailed meeting of the minds was promised, but delayed due to family health issues that prevented Rick from actually being at the conference.

I love long interviews. This one, though to be fair I have not yet watched it all the way through, promises to be very interesting indeed. Often we pick our tribes and then fail to really appreciate what others are saying. This is so true in for example the Arminan vs Calvinist debate where many are in danger of simply writing off many of their brothers and sisters who disagree with them on the five points but love Jesus and tremble at God’s word. There are so many people that we can and should hold at a distance for gospel reasons, I think we must allow new alliances to form with those who take the Bible seriously.

Many dismiss Warren for purely stylistic issues. They do not know of his avid devouring of Biblical theology. They are not aware of his love for God’s Word. They see a style that seems focussed on practical issues, and very simple teaching. They do not appreciate that there is a very clear and thought-through method that lies behind the way Warren communicates, nor that it is so much harder to explain things in a straightforward way.

Piper is very different stylistically to Warren. Yet I love the fact that he appreciates him so much. In the introduction to the video Piper is very clear that he values Warren’s efforts in the social action arena. He is not afraid to say that he is concerned that doctrine be at the foundation of all we do. Warren agrees with him on this and states that it is doctrine that drives him.

I love how Piper assesses Warren in his post accompanying the video:

“Rick is not known for being a doctrinal preacher. One reason for this is his intention to be theologically sound and practically helpful without using doctrinal or theological terms in his public ministry. Inside of Saddleback there is a greater intentionality about building biblical and theological categories into the people’s minds and hearts . . .

Rick and I are very different in methodological instincts and inclinations. I take almost the exact opposite approach in preaching—wanting to make the theological categories explicit and to show how I got them from the text. But then I am not even close to the fruitful evangelist that Rick is.

We both have chosen risky ways. There are pitfalls of short- and long-term unfruitfulness. But in the end we do not govern the impact of our lives. God does. We do what the Bible and our hearts call us to do. I believe Rick’s is a faithful heart. Listen to the clarity of his doctrinal commitments and hear the heartbeat of his love for Christ and those perishing without him.”

Piper gets it. Warren is an evangelist. Very different in style to Billy Graham. But an evangelist nonetheless. By God’s grace he has accomplished so much for the gospel in a unique way that his gifting enables. How dare so many Christians despise what God has done through him. I encourage you to watch the video below or you can read more on John Piper’s Blog Here it is to watch.  Get yourself a coffee or tea, press play, and make yourself comfortable:

Rick Warren’s talk at the Desiring God 2010 National Conference Think: The Life of the Mind and the Love of God conference follows below. Not surprisingly in some reformed circles online the recriminations continue. People wonder why Piper would invite Warren. But I very much enjoyed this talk. Warren is no lightweight. It is easy to dismiss his talks as lacking theological substance, but to those who’s ears are open, they will realize there is much depth to them. He has the skill, often spoken about in Spurgeon’s ministry of being a consumer of complex theology and repackaging God’s truth in a fresh, superficially simple manner. People used to dislike Spurgeon’s so-called “coarse language” and what was for his era an informal, and simple style.

Rick shows the drive of his ministry in this talk. As a young Southern Baptist he kept writing in his sermon notes YBH – yes but how? I think this disease is very prevalent among us reformed folk. We can be under the illusion that if we just get our doctrine right everything else will flow naturally. Well, it aint necessarily so! Rick grabs us by the scruff of our necks in this talk and gives us some clear biblical tips on how to conquer our thought patterns.

Do I wish that he didn’t use so many Bible translations? You bet I do! But do I understand that he does so with a passion to make familiar truths live for a cynical audience- yes! Would I want to listen to nothing but Warren’s sermons? No, probably not. But, am I glad for all he has done for the church at large, and rejoice in him as a brother- you betcha! It is hard to ignore a man who leads a church that has baptized 20,000 people in just a few years, and has now sent a missions team to every nation on earth! Quite some achievement. Quite a man it would seem, though I am sure he would confess that it is in fact God who has once again taken over a fairly ordinary man to accomplish his extraordinary purposes. You mark my words, Rick Warren is not finished his ministry yet and we will hear much more about him in the future. His current passion to engage the church in world mission and social action is commendable. To hear him say that he read the whole works of Edwards in a year while doing everything else he does makes me just want to say “I shut my mouth and listen, rather than sit in judgment.” Do I want to ape everything about Warren and his ministry, no way. But them, I don’t want to blindly copy everything about Piper’s ministry, either! It is so important to listen to people you disagree with. I may indeed disagree with Warren on some things, but surely in this day when there are enough true enemies of the gospel out there, it is about time people stopped trying to pretend that Warren is one of them?

This second installment of my interview with Wayne was quite far reaching. We spoke about the atonement and how he decides what kind of people to have fellowship with. He even had a comment on the recent controversy over Rick Warren and John Piper.

Watch on Vimeo

How important do you think some of the recent realignments over doctrinal matters we have seen recently in the Church are?

It’s why I am here. It was to affirm the need for drawing boundaries on doctrinal matters that I came here to this conference. In particular, the importance of affirming penal substitutionary atonement (i.e. that Jesus was punished for our sin). That is just central to the whole of the gospel. Once that is denied, other things start to unravel. It was with a desire to encourage the people who organize New Word Alive that I came here.

We must trust in Jesus as our Saviour. Sometimes the faith in peoples hearts is better than the doctrine in their minds. With the preaching of the full gospel, people ought to believe that Jesus is both God and man that he died to receive the full penalty for our sins, and that he rose from the dead and that we trust in him for salvation. Every doctrine is related to everything else. It therefore requires mature wisdom to decide whether to endorse someone who believes something you do. So for example, on the issue of baptism, Christians have agreed to disagree on the basis that it has limited effects on the rest of our understanding of the Bible.

How do you decide what kind of people to have fellowship with?

Well it depends on what purpose. I have next door neighbours who are Muslims and we are friends with them. It doesn’t mean that I endorse what they believe. I have worked on political and legal issues with Catholics as well as having a Roman Catholic woman as a participant in a neighbourhood Bible study. On the level of church membership, however, there has to be some willingness to submit to and support the doctrinal teachings and leadership of that church. Then at the level of teaching responsibility in the church, there are more requirements, and that the level of eldership there are even more. The higher one goes on the overall influence on the direction of the church, the more careful one must be to admit someone to that role.

It seems that the Christian world is in flux right now.  Old alliances have already dissolved. New ones are being forged.  But still there is some uneasiness in many. Unexpected events can suddenly seem to threaten to bring this new house crashing down as if it was made of cards.  How do we determine who we are going to associate with?  How do we decide who to listen to?  Now that many conferences do not seem to exclusively invite speakers from their own background, how can we predict who will be speaking where next?

These kind of questions are perhaps at the forefront of my mind right now as I prepare to go to New Word Alive. At Easter 2007, I would never have imagined that by 2010 I would be attending my third conference with the UK reformed crowd. I would definitely not have predicted I would be looking forward to it as much as I am.   And I most certainly would never have dreamed that I would have written a book which will be featured in their bookshop, and graciously endorsed by some modern reformed leaders.

Why are the traditional reformed movement and the charismatics being driven closer together? Why is it that later this year the Proclamation Trust is hosting a conference on the role of the Holy Spirit? The answers to these questions, I believe, are also tied up with answers to another question that has been brewing online.

A small number of bloggers (including some very notable ones) are strongly criticizing John Piper for inviting Rick Warren to speak at his conference. Some people who I normally respect have challenged Piper’s decision in what I consider to be outrageous ways. Some of the articles that I have read about this read like they were rushed, and have the intention of adding Piper himself to some list of the “banned” as a form of “secondary separation.”

I have a very different perspective. I believe that John Piper is a man of God who has been given a unique gifting and authority. DGM is the ministry he leads, and this conference is his responsibility. Why would I assume that I have any right or ability to publicly rebuke him on such decisions? I have seen much of Piper’s ministry and it is enough that I instinctively trust him. I believe that he has done a lot of careful thinking and prayer about this. I don’t agree with everything Piper says, but I will never disagree with him without both careful thought and, I trust, a very respectful tone. In fact I happen to think that this decision to invite Warren is a very wise and important one as the rest of this post will explain.

At the core of at least my reasoning to “want it all,” or to put it another way, to learn from as wide a group of people as possible, lies two profoundly important concepts. I suspect that by virtue of their being firmly and comfortably surrounded by American reformed people, most bloggers who have criticized Piper don’t fully grasp either of them.

The first is simply this. We have so many enemies we cannot afford to create new ones in our own imagination. Evangelicalism as a movement is almost dead in the water in both the USA and the UK. Its leaders are either outrightly denying core doctrines of our faith (such as penal substitution) or tolerating and secretly encouraging those who do. Those of us who hold these values, and perhaps even a complementarian view, are being ostracized and persecuted. I genuinely think that our biggest attacks in the future are going to come from within the professing church.

Meanwhile secularism’s militancy continues to increase. There has even been talk in the UK about Christian churches being forced in the future to employ ministers who are openly committing sexual immorality. This kind of thing is happening more slowly in the USA, but is happening nonetheless. An aggressive secularization may well in the end be encouraged by those leaders who are meant to represent us in the name of “Christian tolerance.”

In Mark 9:40 Jesus tells us, “Whoever is not against us is for us.” It is that concept that drives me today when I look at who we can join hands with in some form of fellowship.  If someone does not want to blot us out as evil preachers of “cosmic child abuse” and clearly loves Jesus and the Bible, how can we not at least try to join hands with them?

There is a good reason why I probably quote Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, and Charles Spurgeon more than anyone else here.  That is because their theology is more similar to my own than anyone outside of the family of churches I am a part of. But I do not only learn from them. Of course there are degrees of fellowship. We can and should “grade” issues in our mind and position ourselves closer to those we agree with more. However, there are many today who would actually have very similar views to mine, whose attitudes I struggle with.  The reformed movement has no monopoly on the truth.  We do not know everything that there is to know.  We should not think that God is limited to working in people on some “approved” list.

The danger is that within the reformed movement we can each set ourselves up as our own pope and be submitted to no one. We might feel so confident of our own judgment that we sit in judgment of other believers. How do so many dare to pronounce so readily against the decisions of a godly man like John Piper? What gives any of us the right to determine with absolute confidence who should be in the “in crowd” and who should not? Why do we feel the need to have a list of “acceptable” people to listen to and another list of “unacceptables” and then impose it on everyone else?

Surely what is more important is that we understand the biblical truth for ourselves so we can readily identify error. If we have a firm grasp on what we believe, and we are convinced that we believe that because of what the Bible says, why would we be so threatened by someone who believes the vast majority of what we do but might differ on a few minor points of doctrine and matters of style? Do we think that one or two talks are going to unravel years of faithful study and listening to godly preachers?

Online one of the dangers is that we can forget we are dealing with people and turn them into faceless enemies we can hurl abuse at. I think that many in some of these posts almost seem to forget that Piper and Warren are human beings, and more than that, our brothers in Christ. We should not wage war against them. Warren has tweeted before about his disappointment and bewilderment that the reformed people “hate” him. He also asked, “Why do those who love grace so much show so little of it?”

In recent times the Christian blogosphere has been rocked by the death of Michael Spencer. It is interesting that none of the eulogies or comments people have made about him have included the kind of abuse that was often pointed his way. Spencer was a complicated individual, and not someone I always agreed with. I thank God, however, that to the best of my memory, we always disagreed amicably.  To be honest, I feel like he was more kind to me than some have who should theoretically have agreed with my theology more. I wish that in life he could have received the near universal respect and kindness he is getting in death.

Perhaps we would do well to ask ourselves three questions before we post a strong criticism:

1. Would I say that to his or her face?
2. Would I say that if I had learned that he or she had died?
3. Will I regret it in the morning?

But there is a second reason that decisions about who to learn from are both so important and so easy to misunderstand. This is the fact that there are many different Christian cultures about. We have each developed our own ways of doing church and doing evangelism. We each have our own languages. This can lead us to misunderstand one another and talk past one another. The truth is, we can learn much from each other. Warren’s roots in a very different wing of the church are, to me, a fascinating thing that offers an opportunity for me to re-examine some of my own assumptions that may be almost unconscious to me. By asking why Warren does things the way he does, without judging him for it, I can learn more about why the people around me do things the way we do. Even if nothing changes in the way we do things, the end result will at least be that we have learned more about ourselves.

Having been involved in a church that has been rapidly growing for the last five years, I have discovered that probably one of the biggest ways in which churches differ is actually size. Warren comes from an extremely large church. Some of what he says and does is because he comes from such a church and actually wants it to continue to grow. To many of his detractors who have spent their lives serving in small churches he may as well come from a different planet. But surely we can learn from him whatever size our church may be. Warren does not condemn small churches, so why should we condemn large ones? Surely it takes many different kinds of churches, and sizes of churches, to reach our world? Surely we should be rejoicing whenever the gospel is going out?

We must learn to function more like one army of Christ, while respecting and maintaining our differences, unless fully convinced by Scripture to abandon them.

UPDATE – I have now written more about why I think John Piper was right to invite Rick Warren.

A few months ago I posted on “why I love Rick Warren” and I have been impressed by his Twitter feed ever since. So it was a real delight to hear that having met up with Warren at a funeral and discovered he loves Jonathan Edwards, among other things they share, Piper has invited him to speak at his conference.

One thing I love about Piper is his willingness to make invitations like this that raise the eyebrow of some reformed people. But imagine the might of a group of people fired up for doctrine and engaged in a passionate purpose with godly pragmaticism. Such a group could change the world! I am seriously considering popping over the Atlantic for the weekend in October if other duties permit! This video explains Piper’s reasoning, a major part of which is not to make for ourselves more enemies when we have enough already:

The audio of this message can be downloaded, or you can listen to it right here:

More posts from this conference can be found on my TOAM08 label page. You can also download the mp3s of this week’s talks by subscribing to the new Newfrontiers podcast, which will be an easy way for you to get access to the mp3s for free.

Mark Driscoll began by thanking us again for having him, thanking us for the trust placed in him as someone we didn’t know, but who had a reputation for being proactive, for the reception and the new friendships, and specifically once again for Terry Virgo and Tope Koleoso, and for what he has learned.

Having been gracious, he then said, “And now I will hurt you . . .” with a twinkle in his eye. He says that he wants us to go beyond our goal of 1,000 churches and grow more quickly.

Our movement leader is Jesus. He interjected about his view of the apostolic. He briefly stated that he did believe in “capital A” Apostles whose job it was to write the New Testament. He also believes in “small a” apostles whose job it is to lead movements and church planting drives. And he believes in them for today. He also believes that Terry Virgo has such a gift and is therefore a modern-day apostle. Pointing at the crowd, he said, “This is good evidence” — meaning the movement of 600 plus churches represented in this room. Feel free to read one of my previous posts about modern day apostles if this all seems a bit strange to you.

Mark explained that the church exists because of Jesus’ desire to reach the ends of the earth. Paul was a leader under Jesus in this movement of Christ, and was responsible for the drive to the Gentiles. Paul completely ignored the rural areas and focused entirely on the cities. Mark strongly urged those of us in Newfrontiers to hear this if we want to grow faster.

If you plant a church in a rural area you will never reach the city. If you plant a church in the city you will also reach the rural areas. Everything hinges on the well-being of the cities. Cities are strategically important for two reasons. First, there are more people there, and second, culture emanates/flows from the city. City is upstream, and suburban and rural areas are downstream. The river flows one way. Culture does not come from the rural areas into the city. The only way to change culture is to transform the city.

Both Christian and non-Christian movements have always emanated from cities. It’s not the number of people, it’s the type of people. But today most cities are non-Christian and the rural areas are more Christian. So Christians become frustrated with the culture — films, music, books, art, etc. The only way to affect that is to be in the city. The key to actual change is to get upstream. We need to lead politicians, artists, musicians, etc. to Jesus. It’s not about getting a lot of people to make a difference. The degree of influence is not about the number of people, but their place upstream.

Christianity starts as an urban church planting movement. He described how he would go into a city and plant a church that could reproduce and plant out into the rural areas. Mark told us to pool our best leaders and resources into the key areas. Chief on that list is London. The world passes through London. Cities like Cape Town and Sydney and other such cities also need strong churches which will reproduce and plant more churches.

Early Christianity was a city-based movement. By 300 A.D. half of the cities of the empire were Christian while 90 per cent were still pagan. Pagan probably comes from a word which meant someone living on a farm. Urban church planting in strategic areas can become a center for a movement of its own. Multiple churches, multiple networks, multiple styles, but one mission—to obey the Great Commission.

Puritans were a movement. They were also very young—teens and 20′s. Methodism, the charismatic renewal—bigger than one denomination or network or one man. Young people tend to be at the center, at least early-on. By bringing in the students suggests that God was telling Terry, “I am planning more renewal.”

Spurgeon, Moody, Billy Graham, and others were all very young when called to ministry. What young people lack in wisdom they make up in zeal. If the older ones can make the transition from player to coach, they will do well.

Anglicanism isn’t having mass conversions right now because they are too busy fighting over who you can have sex with.

With a renewal movement going on, new churches are planted. New ways of doing things, new music, new styles, new ways of reaching out. Church planting requires new wineskins. The goal is not to plant churches, but to have converts such that it becomes necessary to plant churches.

Most movements are unaware of the scale of their influence.

Out of the movement comes supporting organizations—new songs, new books to write, etc.

Most movements come into being because of the coming of new technology. The Reformation was only possible because of the printing press. Evangelists like Billy Graham were only able to do what they did because of the newly invented amplified speaker systems, etc. The Internet is now spawning a new movement in form. We can preach the gospel to the nations with a click of a button.

Mark wants Newfrontiers to still exist when we are all dead, and to still be loving Jesus and planting churches.

Movements start as a simple organization that sees a need and a few friends club together. They come together to meet that need. God raises up a leader who the people recognize as the visible face, the one who God has called to lead them. The organization then grows and becomes a movement. Big interest is generated. More people come. The crowds grow. There is passion, purpose, mission, expansion. It can be fast and furious. Mistakes are made. Theology needs to be clarified. It can be a messy time, some people don’t fit.

During the time of growth there is pressure to become an institution. There no longer is courage, but rather a fear of failure. Founders and friends occupy all the positions of leadership. Those who have been there a long time have all the senior roles, and there is no room for the young. As soon as that happens the young guys leave to start another movement. The young guys of the past are in danger of becoming the old guys that they never used to like in the first place.

The question for every movement is — Will every seat always be filled by the founders and friends? Only this will stop it becoming an institution. Institutions guard previous change, they don’t pioneer new change. They stop listening to anyone outside of the network they’re in. They only read books by, sing songs by, listen to teaching by people from inside their movement. A movement needs humility and discernment to listen to people from outside the movement.

Driscoll was shocked to be here. He sees how willing Newfrontiers is to bring in people from outside of Newfrontiers, bringing a gift to us. You receive it and consider it. That is one of the key ways a movement can avoid becoming an institution.

Once you have an institution, the next step is to become a museum. The remnant that is left behind exists solely to tell the story. In one generation a movement can transition to being an institution and then a museum.

Mark then outlined seven ways a movement can get off-track. He acknowledged that most of this was taken from Larry Osbourne.

Doctrinally
An example of this is Vineyard. It started well, but then drifted and compromised on ecclesiology, introduced women elders, etc. and became too loose. A movement can also become too tight. A healthy movement does not debate doctrines such as the atonement, the Bible, heaven, hell, etc., but should be free to discuss secondary issues. The key is to define what you need agreement on in order to be in the movement and what you can safely differ on.

Relationships
Mark has some concern for us here. People can love their circles of friendship so much that they are unwilling to break up their circles of leadership to make more room. It’s like Peter saying, “Let’s build tents.” Mission can become their friendship and not the Great Commission. It’s not that you shouldn’t have friends. But you tend to gravitate towards your friends. This affinity and love can exclude those who are new. This can be especially true in working teams. It might suddenly be time to break up a team for the mission. Again, Mark expressed a bit of concern for us over this.

There is a bit of relational resistance, and we should really be planting at least 70-100 churches a year from a base of 200 churches like Newfrontiers has in the UK. (Ed. There are another 400 or so worldwide.)

Organizationally
This is another concern Mark has for Newfrontiers. Everything is done initially through relationships and verbally. As time goes on, things must be written down, articulated, and defined. They move from the spoken to the written. If you are unwilling to make those adjustments you can become an institution. If the reason you don’t want policies, etc. is that you don’t want to become an institution, what you will become is a very poorly organized institution.

Organizational Pride
Some movements will not sing songs unless they have been written by them; they won’t read books that have not been written by them; nor will they listen to those from outside. Mark stated that he has no concern whatsoever about Newfrontiers on this front. There are times that every movement outgrows the counsel of their leadership and need wisdom from outside. He commends Newfrontiers for being so open to outsiders teaching them.

Chasing Potential Rather Than Calling
Movements can chase too many things at once. For example, Vineyard started as a church-planting movement and then became a renewal movement. They were involved in so many other groups that they didn’t really plant churches any more. Focus on the primary calling of the movement. Mark said that so far he hears that our primary goal is church planting, but 10 to12 churches a year is too few for a movement our size if we are truly pursuing this with all of our heart. He wondered what other things we were pursuing that were diverting our energies.

Movements Stagnate Because of Lack of Publishing
There is a need to do much, much more publishing. What is your doctrine of the Holy Spirit? What is your doctrine of church planting? What is your ecclesiology? Some of these things still need to be cleaned up. Actually he feels Newfrontiers is doing better than Acts 29 on some of these points. Websites, blogging, vodcasting, etc. More statements to safeguard the movement.

Mark warned us that the next point would be his most painful point, and he wasn’t wrong. By the time he had finished with us, I don’t think there was a dry eye in the hall.

Movements Get Off-Course Because They Fail to Simultaneously Honor the Founder and the Future
Some movements so honor the founder that they shipwreck the future. Some so honor the future that they shipwreck their founder. This is the defining issue for our movement. It will determine whether our movement a one-generation movement or many. At this moment do you believe that as a movement you would tend to honor your future or your founder? Which way do you feel Newfrontiers is heading?

For the first time in the history of a Newfrontiers conference, Mark proposed a vote. We don’t vote, but went along with it just this once. Of those who were bold enough to raise a hand, 80 percent said that they felt our tendency as a movement would be towards honoring our founding leader rather than running after the future.

Driscoll agreed with those who responded that we tend to honor our founder, and we should do so! We love Terry Virgo and we should honor him. Mark said that he was only just getting to know Terry, but that he also loves him. He is a great man. He truly loves Jesus, the Scriptures, his family,and Newfrontiers. And we love him. The question is, How can we best honor him? We can do that by making sure that Newfrontiers remains a movement with a future and builds on Terry’s life work.

Mark then explained that he felt that God had given him a prophetic word for us as a movement, and for Terry in particular. This was remarkable in a way because he had said repeatedly during the week that this was an area in which he was learning from us. In his own church he had said that although he believes in gifts, they don’t use them. For someone who said he had no real models of gifts, he was about to share one that packed a heavy punch.

Looking down at Terry, who was sitting on the front row watching, he said that God had said that Newfrontiers is like a daughter to you, Terry. You have birthed it, held it, guarded it, cared for it, tended to it, prayed for it, loved it. You have been an amazing father to them.

He felt God said that, while not in the immediate future, there will come a day when you will need to walk her down the aisle and marry her to a great man so she will have children.

Driscoll urged us to pray for Terry as he is to make that transition at some point in the future. God will tell him. Be ready for it when it comes. Regularly pray for him. He asked us to commit to pray daily about this point. He said we should ask that Terry would have absolute certainty when it is time to walk it down the aisle, certainty about which man or men he should entrust her to. He looked at the crowd and declared, “You think of it a lot, but speak of it very little, because you love Terry. And you don’t want to dishonor him.”

Driscoll also warned us that we must not swing towards being all about the future. But it is the epicenter of whether we will continue to be healthy or begin to die. Pray for Terry Virgo. Pray for him every day that God will reveal to him when and how and who so that this will remain a movement. London is full of museums. We don’t need another one. We don’t need some of you to be just telling the stories in thirty years’ time. We want the praises of Jesus to still be sung.

Rick Warren once spoke on movements. He said there are six phases of renewal:

It begins and ends with personal renewal.
You keep meeting with Jesus. He is alive! Be filled with the Spirit, meeting him in the Scriptures, be overwhelmed with the grace of God. Be scandalized with the gospel. Personal renewal, enthusiasm, joy.

Next there is relational renewal
Love of God in your heart is shared. Concern for the well-being of others. Captures something of your heart. Improves marriages, children. Circle of influence. Life of Jesus by the Spirit flowing through you to extend the grace of God to others. People show up early and stay late, and they are talking. They love to sing together because they are a people. This is what happens in Newfrontiers. Personal, which leads to relational, and shows up when we sing. Again Driscoll spoke of being impressed by our worship.

Missional renewal is the next phase
As we are connected to Jesus and love one another, our heart expands. We want new churches to get planted right now. We are people of God. The Word of God and the Spirit of God sustains us and we have to get that out.

Leads to cultural renewal
Be passionate about living as a city within the city. Cultural change in our churches will then spill out to the community. Infiltrates the culture of the cities. Culture here in Newfrontiers, according to Mark, is beautiful, but it needs to multiply.

Structural renewal then needed
The way we do things is going to need to change. More systems, more policies. 70-100 plants a year at least. The measure of life in this room should squeeze out many more than ten children a year!

Institutional renewal is the ultimate goal
Changing Christian organizations that are dead. Do not give up on churches, networks, museums, colleges, even Anglicanism. We could be a source of renewal. Pour life into a dead seminary, a dead church, etc. How refreshing it is to be around renewed people! This could be a gift to the whole body of Christ. In joy, giving them hope that change is possible. He said that for the entire time he has been with us, he has been happy, which is very unusual for him. He feels his spirit has been renewed through being here. We should pray for the dead and dying places where the light of the gospel is dimming or has been snuffed out altogether. Bring hope where there is hopelessness. In Acts 29, their church planters are from many different movements and denominations. It begins with Jesus and ends with everything. Young men, you need to step up. If he asks, Who are the young leaders here? don’t point to men years older than Driscoll.

One prayer is for a bunch of 20 year old guys with hope who will plant churches and preach the gospel with hope. Be looking at all times for men in their 20′s. They will be arrogant, foolish, impetuous, critical, disorganized, and they will be perfect for the task God has for them!

At the end of this talk, we did something that in my memory we have never done in the 30 years I have been attending Newfrontiers conferences — we all stood as one man in a standing ovation to this fatherly yet direct, loving yet firm, respectful yet critical, emotive yet rational, talk.

Terry Virgo then stood at the microphone and said that there have been times in our movement that were historic moments. He spoke about the way Kreingsak changed us in the past, and when Simon Petit spoke on the poor that also changed us. He said that he knew God told him to invite Mark Driscoll, but that when he did, he had no idea he would feel “taken apart” by him.

Terry then closed with a simple prayer in which he thanked God for his care for us as a movement. He also thanked God for Mark Driscoll, who he called one of God’s most remarkable servants. He thanked God for the high privilege of having Mark Driscoll on this platform, and spoke of how we really are a FAMILY on a journey, with a God who is continualy expressing his love for us.

Blogs have a bad reputation for spreading rumours without confirming the source. Every now and then I intend to give a right of reply to someone who feels they have been unfairly treated online (or indeed in the mainstream media). Today its Rick Warren’s turn. This press release and letter was sent to me via e-mail. I am open to receiving other similar things to consider for pubilcation.

I will cite the entire release and letter word for word without comment -
————————————–

ABOUT SYRIA

Dear Saddleback Family,

Tomorrow our team heads home from a three-nation P.E.A.C.E. plan tour of Germany, Syria, and Rwanda. Our trip began with a P.E.A.C.E. Plan briefing for 44 Christian missions organizations we’d gathered in Atlanta.

In hindsight, I wish we’d been better prepared for our visit to Syria. We would have handled some meetings differently, watched our words more closely, and been more aware of the agenda of their state press. We wanted to just slip in and out, but that’s nearly impossible for me to do anymore. It’s been a learning experience. Be sure to read the press release at the end of this note that gives you all the details.

Why did we go to Syria? The simple truth is that I was invited by my neighbor, Yassar. When we arrived, our first event was a home cooked meal with 20 of Yassar’s family. Then, we were shown many of the historical Christian sites in Syria: the road to Damascus where Paul was converted, Straight street where the Holy Spirit led Paul, the house where Ananias prayed for his healing, the wall where Paul was let down in a basket to escape the Romans, the tomb of John the Baptist and the oldest Christian church building in existence.

Next, my neighbor arranged for us to meet some key Christian leaders, Muslim leaders, and government leaders – including the president of Syria. Franklin Graham has had years of experience with Lebanon and Syria, so I asked him what to say to the Syrian President. Franklin told me, “Thank him for protecting the freedom of Christians and Jews to worship there.”

As we left, the official state-controlled Syrian news agency issued some press releases that sounded like I was a politician negotiating the Iraq war by praising the Syrian President and everything else in Syria! Of course, that’s ridiculous, but it created a stir among bloggers who tend to editorialize before verifying the truth. Does it seem ironic to you that people who distrust Syria are now believing Syrian press releases?

In our meeting with the president, I explained (as usual) the Saddleback P.E.A.C.E. Plan, and he gave us permission to send teams to Syria.

Friends, I am aware that inaccuracies, misquotes, and misperceived motivations get reported about me in the press daily. Most of the time, I just ignore them. Jesus said, “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.” (John 15:18 – NCV)

I love the paraphrase of Matthew 5:11-12 (Msg): “Count yourselves blessed every time people put you down or speak lies about you to discredit me. What it means is that the truth is too close for comfort and they are uncomfortable. You can be glad when that happens—for though they don’t like it, I do! And all heaven applauds. And know that you are in good company. My prophets and witnesses have always gotten into this kind of trouble.”

Just don’t believe everything you read on the Internet or hear in the media.

I love you all and I’m praying for this weekend’s FOR THE NEXT GENERATION OFFERING. I’m excited about getting back home to see you!

Pastor Rick

PRESS RELEASE
A. Larry Ross

Kigali, Rwanda, November 16 – Dr. Rick Warren, best-selling author of The Purpose Driven Life and founding pastor of Southern California’s Saddleback Church, concluded a four-day pastoral visit to Syria earlier this week as part of a three-nation pastoral training and PEACE Plan tour. The trip began last week in Germany, where more than 5,000 church leaders gathered to hear Dr. Warren give an overview of a plan to mobilize local churches to attack the global problems of poverty, disease, illiteracy, corruption and spiritual emptiness. Similar training with church leaders in Rwanda continues this week.

Contrary to reports by the official state-controlled Syrian news agency, Dr. Warren was in Syria to meet with and encourage the country’s key Christian leaders; dialogue with top Muslim leaders; and promote religious freedom. Leaders who met with Dr. Warren included the Patriarchs of the Greek Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church; the leader of the coalition of Evangelical Churches of Syria; and the pastor of the world’s oldest standing church dating back to 315 AD; and Mufti of the Arab Republic of Syria Sheikh Ahmad Badr Al-Din Hassoun.

Dr. Warren’s visit to Syria was neither official nor political, but rather came out of a promise to his Muslim neighbor in California. While discussing over their backyard fence Warren’s frequent international travel, the neighbor asked him to visit his home country of Syria, with its many sites sacred to Christians and church history that date back 2,000 years.

Many Americans don’t realize that both Christianity and Judaism are legal in Syria. In addition, the government provides free electricity and water to all churches; allows pastors to purchase a car tax-free (a tax break not given to Muslim imams); appoints pastors as Christian judges to handle Christian cases; and allows Christians to create their own civil law instead of having to follow Muslim law. Every Christian with whom Dr. Warren’s team met — including those in the city of Malula, where they represent two-thirds of the population — expressed gratitude for the government’s protection of their right to worship.

“Let there be no doubt about our support for President Bush, our troops in Iraq and the war on terror,” he told the Mufti. When asked if American opinion had turned against the Iraq war. Warren replied, “Yes –The New York Times reported that 80 percent of Americans indicated in Election Day exit polls they now oppose keeping troops in Iraq.” Later, Dr. Warren’s team was told by a Syrian official that it would be a mistake for American troops to immediately pull out.

Because Dr. Warren often meets with presidents of nations he visits, his neighbor also arranged a meeting with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Dr. Warren sought counsel in advance from Syrian experts in Washington, and was told that Syria’s state-controlled media would likely distribute press releases after the meeting, which they did.

“The Syrian government has long had a bad reputation in America, but if one considers a positive action like welcoming in thousands of Christian refugees from Iraq, or the protection of freedom to worship for Christians and Jews in Syria, it should not be ignored,” Dr. Warren said from Rwanda. He further explained that in terms of religious freedom, Syria is far more tolerant than places like Burma, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, and nations identified in the U.S. Commission Report on International Religious Freedom. “Muslims and Christians have lived side by side in Syria for more than a thousand years, often with mosques and churches built next to each other,” he added. “What can we learn from them?

“I believe it is a mistake to not talk to nations considered hostile — isolation and silence has never solved conflict anywhere, whether between spouses or between nations,” Dr. Warren concluded. He further shared his experience in Rwanda, a country that is experiencing peace after years of conflict by emphasizing reconciliation instead of retaliation. He noted that, as a pastor, he always urges couples in conflict to keep talking to each other — no matter how angry they are. As long as they keep talking, there is hope for a resolution; but if they refuse to even talk, divorce is inevitable.

Other issues Dr. Warren discussed with Syrian religious, academic and governmental leadership included the importance of civil dialogue among religions; possible student exchange and academic cooperation with Christian universities; and Saddleback Church’s “P.E.A.C.E. Plan” to train local churches to attack poverty, disease, corruption, illiteracy, and spiritual emptiness in cooperation with businesses and governments.

-End-

Tim has interviewed Richard Abanes who spent the second post supporting Rick Warren and the first exposing Harry Potter. Tim has experienced a reaction which has led to him posting on being accused of being a tool of the Devil. The other posts can be found from the one I linked to in the “Related Posts” box.

The kind of response Tim sadly got is why I am building up slowly to posting my thoughts on Rick Warren’s recent UK conference, as well as the fact that I want to mull it over beforehand.

Sadly though, part of the heat in the response may have been caused by some comments that Richard made about John MacArthur. Accusations flying around are not healthy and it seems from pyromaniacs response to this interview that bad editing from CNN may have contributed to this problem. It is sad when these kind of rows are happening.

Unfortunately it is all too easy to accuse popular preachers of things without doing ones research properly. People, we need to realise that popularity does not equal being a false teacher necessarily and in any case, where someone is trying to serve God we should try and learn to take the good from them!

Rick Warren shares his heart:

“I’m in the life change business. I’m in the transformation business. You know what motivates me? not size; in fact, I don’t even like big churches. I mean, my favorite size was 300 people. What motivates me is that I am addicted to changing lives. I love seeing lives changed and that is the untold story. Everybody tries to attribute the growth of churches to everything else but what makes them grow and it’s changed lives.

Now that’s what a mega-church is, so what’s an evangelical? Let’s just review. An evangelical believes the Bible is God’s Word, Jesus is who he claimed to be, salvation is only by grace in other words, you can’t earn your way to heaven and everybody needs to hear the good news; information, not coercion…..

[there is a popular myth that says] if a church is this big, it must be because of marketing. No, it’s because of changed lives. When peoples’ lives are changed you’d have to lock the doors to keep them out, because they want to go where their lives are changed……

The only guy I know who got this was a New York Times reporter who did an article on Saddleback a while back. And I like the way he said it. He said, “Marketing creates a message in order to sell a product. But Warren’s doing the exact opposite he’s creating products in order to push a message.” Well, it’s true. I plead guilty to that. But that’s not marketing, that’s taking the message and trying to get it out as many ways as possible instead of creating a message to sell your product.

Really there are two kinds of mega-churches. They don’t grow the same way. Some grow by transferred growth and some grow by conversion. And anytime you see a mega-church that grows instantly it just kind of explodes and all of a sudden they go from zero to 5,000, that’s a church that’s growing by transfer growth, which means they’ve just become the hot act in town and everybody goes, “Let’s just all go over there. That’s the place to go so we’ll all go.” And as a pastor, I don’t consider that legitimate growth. Jesus said, “I’ll make you fishers of men.” This is like swapping fish in the aquarium. It’s like we pop them from one place to another, and they grow at the expense of other churches.

Saddleback is unique in that 78 percent of the members of our church had no religious background prior to joining the church. It is a church of conversion growth. We’ve baptized about 14,000 adults in the last eight years. So that means this is not a church that grew at the expense of other churches. “

CNN had an interview with Rick Warren in the aftermath of the Ashley Smith incident. I know that Warren has many detractors, but all I can say is I rejoice that the gospel message got out on CNN through him.

WARREN: “You know, this guy was acting in — when he started killing people, when Brian Nichols started killing people — when people lack hope, they do hopeless things. And I think this guy actually felt hopeless. And so, he was lashing out, not in a good way. Obviously, he took four lives and we’re sorry for that.

But what people are looking for is a reason for hope. And when Ashley explained to him, you know what, this is not what you’re meant to do, this is not what you’re meant to live for, he immediately resonated from it and actually called her — said you’re an angel sent from God. And the change was instant.

KING: Can he still have, in his situation, a purpose driven life?

WARREN: Absolutely. Now, there’s no doubt that the Bible teaches when someone commits a crime, that the government has the authority to punish people for it. And he may losses his life, he may get the death penalty. But before — as long as he’s alive here on earth, there will be a purpose for his life. And of course, that purpose now becomes greater — and in fact, I think that’s really what the message this week of Easter is, is that God can bring good out of bad.

That he turns crucifixions into resurrections. That he takes the mess of our life, and when we give him all the pieces, he can — God can put it together in a new way. And the message, I think there’s two messages out of this story. One of them is, that God can use anybody. Ashley will tell you, she’s just an ordinary person. She wasn’t some saint. She wasn’t some preacher or some theologian. God uses normal ordinary people in daily life. And if God only used perfect people, nothing would get done. Because none of us are perfect. We’ve all got our faults, mistakes in our backgrounds.

And I think, that’s the story that God uses us in spite of ourselves, in spite of ourselves, and in spite of weaknesses and faults. And I think the other thing is, that opportunities are all around us, but a lot of times we’re just unaware of it. Everybody wants to serve God in a great way. But in that chapter, I talk about, why don’t you just serve God in a little way and watch what he wants to do.

And she, obviously, she just went out for a pack of cigarettes. And as she went out, I’m sure she didn’t have any plan of being some kind of savior or super person. But she just went out for some cigarettes, and when she came back, the opportunity presented itself and she responded in love to this guy and he melted…….

KING: How do you like being, by the way — before we take a break and take calls — I understand that you’re on greeting cards now, quotes from “The Purpose-Driven Life” is in the select group of greetings cared that bookstores are putting it in the front. Are you now a commodity?

WARREN: Well, I hope not. I tell you this. Marketing is when you create a message in order to push a product, but what I’m doing is the exact opposite. I’m just looking for products to share a message, because I believe that the message is life-changing — and by the way, I didn’t come up with that distinction, that was said about me in the New York Times, that I’m creating ways to simply share the message, that God loves you, he has a plan and purpose for your life, Jesus Christ died for you, there is a reason for the things that happen in your life. And even the bad things, God can bring good out of bad.

That’s what Easter’s all about, and — the message isn’t really anything new, Larry. It’s been taught for 2,000 years in churches. If somebody wants to hear it, they don’t have to read my book, just go to church on Easter and hear it……..

CALLER: My question is for Mr. Warren. I love your book, No. 1. And also that, when you do get a chance to see Mr. Nichols, what will you say to him and what questions will you ask him?

WARREN: Well, the first thing I am going to ask him is, have you made your peace with God? Have you developed a relationship with Jesus Christ? Have you asked him for forgiveness for the things that you’ve done? And have you decided to try to make restitution in any way to those who you hurt, the lives that you took? That is the first and foremost thing, is to make sure, first, you’re right with God, and then second, that you’re right with other people as best that you can. Now, he obviously can’t completely recompense those who lost their loved ones, but he needs to do what he can to do that.

KING: You will not condemn him?

WARREN: Well, Jesus came and said, I didn’t come to condemn the world, I came to save it. And I want to be like Jesus. And so if I’m going to condemn anybody, I am going to condemn myself, because I’m just as guilty of doing wrong things and hurting other people — maybe not murder, but Jesus said, you know, if you’ve hated people in your heart, that’s bad, too…………….

WARREN:……everybody’s heard the word “repent” and they don’t really understand what the word means. For a lot of people, when they think of the word repentance, they think of a guy with a sandwich sign that says, “turn or burn,” or, “you’re going to die and fry.”

But actually, repent is the Greek word, metanoia (ph), which means literally “to change your mind.” And it means that when I repent, I change my mind. First, I change my mind about God, I change my mind about myself, I change my mind about others, I change my mind about life. And a lot of people look at repentance as a negative thing, like I’m going to have to give up this, this, and this, and this, and like it’s something terrible.

You know, when I repented, Larry, years ago, I basically turned from hopelessness to hope, from darkness to light, from guilt to forgiveness, from loneliness to a family of God, from purposelessness to purpose, from having no meaning in my life to having meaning. It was the most positive change in my life.

And I think that when Ashley shared this idea, that you know what, even though you’ve gone through what you’ve done, and you’ve done these bad things, that no one is beyond the point of redemption. And I do truly believe that, that even the people who are listening to this program right now, some of them say, man, I’ve done it, I’ve done too many bad things, God’s fed up with me, God wouldn’t be interested in me. God wouldn’t pay me any attention because, you know, I missed that boat a long time ago. And I would say to those people, you’re dead wrong. You’re just dead wrong. There is no pit too deep that God’s love is not deeper still. And I would say that’s true for Brian Nichols, it’s true for me, and it’s true for everybody in the whole world. And that is what is the good news, is that it’s never too late. Never too late. That’s it.

“

Warren was also asked about Terri Schiavo:

“KING:What do you make of this whole Terri Schiavo matter? The courts have still kept the feeding tube in. The polls indicate the public supports the husband. Where do you stand in all this incredible matter?

WARREN: Yes, you know, Larry, the first place — any poll, you can make a poll say anything you want by the way you frame the question, you know that. I think if people know the real story about Terri — they think that she’s on life support. She’s not. They think she’s brain dead, she’s not.

This is a woman who is not dying, at least she wasn’t, until they started starving her. She’s in a vegetative state. That is not brain dead, and doctors will tell you person can live in a vegetative state 15, 20, 30 years. It’s unlikely that she would come out of it, but a lot of people do, and it does happen.

If I were in a vegetative state, I would hope the people that love me would keep feeding me with the possibility I might come back out of that state. She’s not on life support. This is not a matter — this is not a right to die issue, in my opinion. It is the fact that they were just feeding a person who is, right now, mentally handicapped, and I, personally, I fear the day, that if we start saying, well, you don’t have a right to live if you are mentally handicapped or you’re physically handicapped or emotionally handicapped, and you — we’ll just, you know, stop feeding you. This is starvation. It’s not pulling artificial life support, it’s saying, we’re just not going to feed you anymore. To me, that is an atrocity worthy of Nazism.

Rick Warren wrote one of two forwards in Dan Kimball’s book Emerging Church-vintage Christianity for New Generations. I am sure that Dan wouldn’t mind me repeating that he believed he was at the more more conservative end of the theological spectrum of the Emergent Church. So perhaps he isn’t a neo-liberal at all. Anyway, I intend to read his book and blog about it (although I suspect that if Nancy Pearcey’s arrives before I finished it I may go onto hers in the interim!)

Anyway Rick nails his colours to the mast quite clearly when he says the following

In ministry some things must never change whilst other things must be constantly changing. God’s five purposes for his church are nonnegotiable. If a church fails at worship, fellowship, discipleship ministry and evangelism it is no longer a church. Its just a social club. On the other hand the way or style in which we fulfill these eternal purposes must continually be adjusted and modified, because human culture is always changing….

As a pastor Ive watched churches adopt contemporary styles in worship programming architecture, music and other elements. Thats OK as long as the biblical message is unchanged…..

The only way to stay relevant is to anchor your ministry to unchanging truths and eternal purposes while being willing to continually adapt how you communicate those truths and purposes…..

Remember the world changes but the word doesn’t. To be effective in ministry we must learn to live with the tension between these two.”

Now, I have to confess that if those quotes are enough to make Rick Warren a neo-liberal then ironically enough I am one too. But then surely that means anyone who allows a guitar in church must be a liberal (yes I am sure that some of my fundementalist readers might agree!)

I am all for the church adapting and being “all things to all men” BUT like Warren suggests I would anchor myself on certain truths that will be unchanging unless and until I become convinved that the bible says something different to what I have believed.

Jolly Bogger has an excelent post answering these questions -

My blogging partner, Adrian Warnock has taken up a series of posts on what he calls “neo-liberalism.” It took me a little looking to figure out exactly what he was talking about, but it appeared that he is dealing with the UK’s version of the emerging church movement. In a private e-mail he confirmed that he is defining neo-liberalism as an attempt to accomodate the gospel to post-modernism, whereas liberalism was an attempt to accomodate the gospel to modernism.

That’s a pretty fair definition as far as I am concerned, but I would like to expand on it a bit. First of all let me acknowledge that, for the emergent/postmodern folks, our use of terms like liberal, neo-liberal, conservative and whatnot demonstrate our captivity to modernism with it’s fixation on labels and neat little categorizations. The postmodern/emergent movement is seeking to transcend the divisions of the church that have come as a result of modernism’s fixation on such things………

Machen defined liberalism not so much by it’s positions on particular points of doctrine, but by it’s anti-doctrinal basis. What made liberalism liberal was it’s insistence that the essence of Christianity was not to be found in doctrines or historical realities, but in practice. Hence, Christianity was not based on the historicity of the life, death and resurrection of Christ, a particular view of the atonement, or trust in the truthfulness of certain historical realities, it was based upon practicing a certain kind of lifestyle. It was the lifestyle that bore the name “Christian.” The liberals were the first to be concerned with “Christian values” and lifestyles. For them, it didn’t matter as much whether or not you believed that Christ literally rose from the dead, what mattered was whether or not you practiced the Christian ethic of love by following their particular social agendas…….

Liberalism cut Christianity off at it’s root in denying the doctrinal nature of the gospel. But fundamentalism cut Christianity off at it’s fruit, by denying the importance of Christian practice……

Christianity is first and foremost a theologically driven thing. Liberalism said that Christianity is first and foremost a sociologically driven thing.

Liberalism lets sociology shape theology, whereas Christianity says that theology must shape sociology…..

So in that respect, any movment that emphasizes that sociology must shape theology has liberal tendencies. So, whereas classic liberalism had its heyday in the 19th and 20th centuries, it is not improper, as Adrian has done, to speak of a new liberalism today – neo-liberalism………

So, I think Adrian is not wrong to use the term neo-liberal in reference to these folks. But I would also like to throw a bone to them and say that their critiques of evangelicalism are often spot on. Though I disagree with almost 100% of the solutions to the problems he offers, I do think that Brian McLaren has accurately identified many of the problems in the church today. What I don’t see from Brian or others is a rigorous theological examination of these things, rather the same kind of sociologically driven mindset that will end up repeating the errors of those they criticize.

In betweeen these excelent quotes Jollyblogger cites an article that he read which called Rick Warren a neo-liberal despite his holding to many of the biblical doctrines commonly denied. I would be very interested to see that article or any other mention of the term neo-liberal in a theological (rather than political) sense prior to my coining the term on my blog.

At the time I coined the phrase, I seriously doubted I was being genuinely original and unless Jollyblogger was mistaken and Warren was accused of being a “post-liberal” then I guess I will have to concede I didn’t invent the term!

I didnt mean it as a term of abuse in any case, and I hope that some may decide they are happy to wear it with pride!

Incidently I am not so sure that Rick Warren falls into this category – and would be interested if this issue of him being driven by sociology could be expanded.

Maybe I will be thrown out of the Reformed Aggregator for saying this but I really liked Warren’s Purpose Driven Church book and have recently picked up the PDL book again.

We may have found one of the rare things that Jollyblogger and I disagree on!

Well, I have dug out my Rick Warren book- the purpose driven life and decided it was time to start reading it again. Many of my friends have been helped by this book, and I will be reading it to learn whatever I can. I very much liked Rick’s previous book on the church, and do believe that his five “purposes” are biblical. (see my post what did the church ever do for me? for more on my take on these)

So chapter one (I am not promising to read a chapter every day, but I will not read more than one in a given day- hope Rick will forgive me!). This is basic but essential stuff. We are put on earth not to fullfill ourselves (too often even a pre-occupation with my personal salvation can be too self-obsessed), but rather to fulfil God’s purpose for us. It really isn’t all about me.

Rick Warren urges us: “put a verb in every one of your sermon points”