adrianwarnock.com » Rob Rufus

2008 Top Posts Numbers 27 and 28

adrianwarnock — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:50:00 +0000

The 28th most popular post on this blog at the moment is one offering a discount on Logos Bible Software. If you want electronic Christian books and much more, do go visit and consider buying some.

In 27th place is my interview with Rob Rufus.

24th Most Read Post – Interview With Rob Rufus

adrianwarnock — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:06:00 +0000

No. 24 on the list of the most widely read posts among readers of my blog appeared on July 13, 2007, and provided an audio link to my interview with Rob Rufus.

Interviewing Rob at the end of the Together on a Mission 2007 Conference was memorable, and those who listened to the mp3 will know just how much laughter was a part of that conversation. In December 2007, the written transcript of this interview with Rob Rufus was published as a series on my blog. Any one of those segments can be read by clicking on the links here:

It was a real delight to sit with Rob Rufus and Tope Koleoso at the end of the conference for the following wide-ranging interview. I would strongly encourage you to listen to this, especially if you want to get more insight into what these apostolic families of churches look like in practice, or if you are just intrigued to learn more about the Holy Spirit.

You can download the mp3 or listen to it right here on the blog:

Review of the Blog – September to December 2007: John Owen and John Piper

adrianwarnock — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:36:00 +0000

During the months of September and October, I spent a lot of time quoting from a book Justin Taylor produced—a lightly edited John Owen. These can all be read on the category page for posts labeled “John Owen.” In November, I gave John Piper on N. T. Wright the same treatment.

I also wrote a post titled Blogging, Discernment, and a Book by Tim Challies which managed to provoke the Pyromaniacs, review Tim’s book, and muse about the best approach to blogging for Christians—all in the same post! It was not long after that when I made the important decision to remove comments from this site because I just wasn’t managing to find the time to moderate them properly. This was announced in Thanksgiving and Some Changes Around Here.

Terry Virgo hasn’t found out and stopped me yet, but I managed to let everyone into the Secret of Newfrontiers—if you want to know what that is, you will have to read the post. I was also able to share an interview with a man who has a unique perspective on our movement, having been in it for decades before officially leaving, while remaining our very good friend. I am, of course, talking about Greg Haslam, who is currently occupying D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones’ pulpit in Westminster Chapel, London.

It was very moving to be able to visit the Billy Graham Center in Wheaton, Illinois. I was also able to return to London in time to renew my acquaintance with Mark Dever, and to listen to him preach. Here are the posts:

In November I met Mark Driscoll in the flesh for the first time and shared the following posts about the meeting and his sermons there, as well as mentioning a couple of key ones from his home church:

In December I posted probably my most political post so far—”Time to Put a Stop to Brown?” It is fair to say that I assumed people would understand that I believed that, for better or worse, it is God who has given us this leader at this time. I should not have assumed that, nor should I have neglected to remind all of us of the need to pray for him. With Brown seemingly helpless against Cameron’s weekly accusations that the PM is dithering and indecisive, it sure looks like the leader of “The B Team” needs our prayers! For the sake of our nation, I hope something changes and soon.

My final interview of the year was actually a transcipt of an interview I had previously shared in audio form. The interviewee was Rob Rufus, and that was surely a good way to end what has been my most eventful year of blogging so far.

INTERVIEW – Rob Rufus: How apostles Work Today

adrianwarnock — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:00:00 +0000

Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we’ve never said, “We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!”—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same”—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and “cross pollinate.” It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

INTERVIEW – Rob Rufus on apostles Today

adrianwarnock — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:58:00 +0000

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we finished by talking a bit about the network of churches of which he is a part. We ended with Rob speaking about a team of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/ teachers. Today we begin by asking Rob what he means by “apostles.”

For more information about the concept of apostles today, see my post “apostles are meant for today,” the section of my interview with the leader of Newfrontiers which asks what Terry Virgo means by apostles today. For a response to our view from someone who respectfully disagrees, see when I ask Wayne Grudem about apostles today. Interestingly, some respected cessationists such as Liam Goligher argue that we need something similar to apostles, although presumably he would be less happy with calling them that. You will notice that I have used the word “apostles” with a small “a,” even when that is grammatically incorrect. That is because we like to distinguish between the original “Apostles,” who were in certain important ways unique, and other “apostles.”

Adrian
You used that word “apostolic,” and I’m very aware that some of my readers will wonder, “What do you mean by that?” Can you explain your perspective of what that means?

Rob Rufus
Yes, and I think that is a very good question, because people are asking that, and it really is something people want to have clarity on. Often people think apostles are those who write Scripture, and that if we’re claiming we’ve got apostles today, we claim that the canon of Scripture’s not closed. But as we know, it IS closed, and that [New Testament] Scripture was written only by apostles in the first century. So we have pre-ascension apostles in the Bible and post-ascension apostles. Anyone who believes the Bible is God’s inspired Word will realize there must be apostles around today—they’re not pre-ascension apostles. The pre-ascension apostles are the twelve apostles of the Lamb that were called primarily to be witnesses to the baptism of Jesus, his life, his resurrection. But after Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended on high (Ephesians 4) he gave some to be apostles. So there are post-ascension apostles as well, and he says they will be in the earth until the Church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ. We know the Church is not at the full measure of the stature of Christ currently, so we will need apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the equipping of the believers, the saints, for the work of the ministry until we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God and to the full measure of the stature of Christ. So apostles need to be “until.” That word “until” offers the key word.

Adrian
Yes, very good. I think it’s Matthew Henry who looks at that passage and says something like, “These gifts (or rather some of them) will continue until the end.” It’s an interesting approach, I guess. If the apostles stop, why doesn’t the pastor stop?

Rob Rufus
Exactly! Exactly!

Tope
Yes, absolutely. I think you put it very, very well, and in a very helpful way because, certainly I know that for us, just working as we see the Bible order these things functioning together with apostles in the midst and all the other gifts, it’s been an incredible help. Near the end, it does say he gives these as gifts. He must know that we need these gifts. There’s something very powerful there. Every time we align ourselves with the biblical order that God has put in place, goodness and blessing come out the other end. So we’re all learning this.

Rob Rufus
Very good, Tope! I agree. I agree. I think when people hear of apostles, they kind of think of some sort of hierarchy and almost a controlling dictator-type where apostles are self-appointed and really think they are the big bosses of the church, you know, but actually Paul says, “We, the apostles, come at the end of the line.” There is nothing dictatorial, although Paul was incredibly anointed in such power and theology and revelation, he came amongst the churches like a father—he said almost like a nursing mother to the Thessalonians. And he speaks about of his affection for them and his friendship for them, and the care for the churches. So there is a hierarchy there. But Paul wouldn’t even put the word “apostle” in front of his name. He always put it behind his name: “Paul, called to be an apostle.” He is saying “apostle” is not my title, it’s my job description. So you’ll never see the word “apostle” in front of Paul’s name, or any of the guy’s names. Even at home, I like to say to people, “Look, I’m Rob, called to be a pastor to you.” Pastor is my job description; it’s not my title. People say, “I’ve got to call you “Pastor Rob” because that’s a sign of respect.” And I say, “Well, then, I’ve got to call you Mechanic Henry. Or Housewife Jill.” I don’t show you respect by calling your job description as your title. I think every sincere person who loves the Scriptures—we need to say the Bible plus nothing, the Bible minus nothing—and we build our theology, our church practice—not only our doctrine of Hebrews 6: faith, repentance, you know, all of the doctrine. But the government, the way church is governed, needs to come back to Scripture as well.

Adrian
Yes, and I think that’s so right. It seems like, I guess it’s almost like we have blind spots—where we want the Bible up to this point, but no further. I guess church history is a bit like that—you look back in church history and you see some of these guys in the past, and you think, “How could you see so much great stuff and not this?!”

Rob Rufus
Yes! Very good! Yes! Yes!

Tope
I think the real enemy just tries to blind us and stop us from seeing certain things and living in the good of certain things. But God is still on the throne and seeking to bring recovery to everything.

When you talk about Paul there, and his movement in church planting—you’ve moved now from South Africa and you find yourself . . . where do you find yourself these days? (Laughter)

Rob Rufus
Well, we planted a church in South Africa and led it for twelve years, handed it over, and then we re-located to Australia to help Dudley, who started the NCMI family of churches and apostolic team. We worked with him there for thirteen years. He actually handed the church over to me and he headed to the United States for awhile—for a number of years—so I led that church for seven years and then handed the church over to Tyrone Daniel, who is Dudley’s son. And then for three years we traveled full-time internationally equipping and training churches in evangelism, and signs and wonders, and doing crusades around the world. And then God spoke very clearly and said, “I want you to go plant a church in Hong Kong,”—which was a real challenge to me because I don’t speak Cantonese or Putonghua, which is Mandarin. But we very clearly heard the call to go. So we started with five people in Hong Kong—no one knew us, knew our history! But God has blessed us here. In three years we have seen local Chinese people saved and added, so we are enjoying it and beginning to move into the China mainland as well and help plant churches in the mainland.

Adrian
Praise God! That’s really great. So, within your family of churches, is that quite an unusual thing to go church planting? I mean, do you just have a few churches or what?

Rob Rufus
We’ve been going from probably the mid-80’s, so it is just over twenty years, and a number of guys and girls together on teams are relocating, planting churches internationally. And more and more we do want it to have a total indigenous flavour. We don’t want it to be—we’re not exporting South African culture that’s for sure! We want it to be Kingdom culture, so when the culture of the country we go to is consistent with the Kingdom culture, those elements of the culture, we say let’s celebrate that. But where the culture contradicts the culture of the Kingdom, then the Christians need to make the adjustments to conform to the culture of the Kingdom. So, yeah, there is that spearheading—more and more people going into different nations and planting, but we also kind of plant and parent. There are churches out there going—we really need to be connected with an apostolic team that can help us build foundation into the life of our churches We never own those churches, but work as friends with those churches through the invitation of the leaders— only through invitation of the leaders. There is no headquarters that says, “We own you and you’re just another statistic. If you don’t line up with us, then we’ll take your building, kick you out”—none of that! We don’t own any buildings. The local church is the highest governing authority; they own their buildings. We build friendship with them and relationship, so we also have had, over those twenty years, probably (we don’t know, you gotta be careful) I’m going to say some thousands of churches, but that represents throughout most of Africa, we have churches. In one year we had 500 churches planted in Malawi alone, but it just happens in Africa. It just happens. But in the Western world, no, we don’t have thousands; we’re talking hundreds in the Western world.

Continued in part 5 . . .

INTERVIEW – Rob Rufus: How to Explore the Charismatic

adrianwarnock — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:21:00 +0000

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we focused on Word and Spirit. Today I begin by asking Rob what steps readers who are intrigued by the charismatic experience should take.

Adrian
One of the things I find is that quite a few of the readers of my blog out there—they love the Word, they are Reformed folk—but they are a little bit bemused to discover that there are a ton of us [charismatics] who love the Word in the same way. Actually, a lot of them are quite drawn in, but they just don’t know quite how to make that connection. Perhaps they don’t live in a town where there’s a group they can go to. Maybe they’ve even been burnt by some of these “charismaniacs” we’ve talked about. What would you say to them? They’re sitting at home and are a bit intrigued, a bit fascinated. They want more, but know they haven’t really connected with the Spirit in that way.

Rob Rufus
Yes. Well, I would say—stay with the Scriptures. Never ever dilute or compromise your love for the Word of God! That is our foundation; that’s the bedrock. Then I would just invite the Holy Spirit to come, the Spirit of truth, because he breathed the Scriptures! They are God-breathed by the Spirit himself. Ask the Holy Spirit to come and just touch you and begin to lead you. And He will, because he really is faithful and wonderful. And then with technology today, this access to speakers around the world like the New Frontiers guys who talk about the Holy Spirit, but from a wonderful biblical place. I mean, I don’t think this fear today that the counterfeit, that the devil—and [the Bible] does warn in the last days there will be counterfeit signs, wonders, and miracles—but it doesn’t say that the ONLY signs, wonders, and miracles in the last day will be counterfeit. So if there is counterfeit, it means that the genuine will be there, and we need to find the genuine. We really need to find the genuine.

Adrian
Thanks for that. Just going back a minute then. There you were, coming—Calvinistic, charismatic, or if you prefer, Reformed Charismatic. (I always think the term “reformed charismatic” is funny because it makes it sound like we’re kind of an ex-charismatic group, doesn’t it?) (Section unclear because of loud laughter.) But you obviously did become part of a family of churches—you’re not part of New Frontiers, but you’re part of something—I think it’s New Covenant Ministries? Have I got that right?

Rob Rufus
Yes, New Covenant Ministries International.

Adrian
And I guess that’s a fairly similar group of churches to New Frontiers? Is that right? That’s my understanding.

Rob Rufus
Yes, very similar. We’ve got so much that is so close. Our DNA is so similar that I feel like I’m at home. I’ve got to realize, okay, yeah, I’m part of the family, you know. It just feels so similar.

Adrian
So, how did New Covenant Ministries International come about? Tell us a little bit about the history of that.

Rob Rufus
Sure. It was back in the early 1980’s when God was really moving in ways, I think, across the world, and particularly in South Africa (we were based in South Africa). My friend who actually mentored me, and fathered and birthed NCMI—his church grew explosively. And whatever happens, you know, whenever you have some success, pastors around the country want you to come and tell them about it.

Adrian
So who was that? What was his name?

Rob Rufus
It’s Dudley Daniel. He started traveling around South Africa and teaching about what made his church grow. Then God spoke to him one day on the plane and said, “It’s wonderful what you’re doing—you’re blessing pastors and that, but do you want to spend the rest of your life just blessing, or do you also want to help pastors build the Church?” Because blessings are short-lived, but if you build well, you can sustain the blessing. And God began to speak to Dudley about finding biblical patterns—what are the biblical wineskins? How were churches really governed in the New Testament? He began to see that there were some traditions that we had inherited that were not in line with Scripture, done by very sincere, good leaders. So he began to relate this to some friends. He threw his home open on a Monday, and pastors that were alone, looking for friendship, started coming and relating. And out of that came a kind of a motto that we developed: “Friendship before function.” We have a function into the earth, but we want to be friends; we want to do it with friends relationally, like Jesus did with his guys, his friends. (Too much laughter to hear what is being said here.) God showed us that we are the offspring of Abraham, and that we are (unclear) forces—we’re the heirs of the world. And that from the seed of Abraham God wanted to make the blessing to all nations! So the Great Commission really just complements the oath God took to Abraham—God took an oath that all nations would be blessed. When you take an oath, it’s—what’s the word I want to say?

Tope
Binding?

Rob Rufus
Yeah, binding. So God bound himself to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham. So if the Church balks on that, or hinders it, or stands against it, then God will precipitate a crisis, like he did with Jonah to get the Gospel to Nineveh. So we realized that God was calling us to go to the nations, and we built—with a national team of friends, we developed a mixture of prophetic, apostolic evangelists, teachers, pastors, etc.

Continued in part 4 . . .

INTERVIEW – Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit

adrianwarnock — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:49:00 +0000

As we drew to the close of part one of this interview with Rob Rufus we were emphasizing the need for charismatics to continue to value the Bible. Today we begin with a question my pastor, Tope Koleoso, asked. This is a lightly edited transcript of what was actually said.

Tope
I’ve got to say, I agree with you. Definitely for me in listening to all the sessions that you did, and for us as a church, having taken so many to this conference, and also as a pastor, having the privilege of speaking with other pastors—the response that I’ve been hearing back, certainly from my own perspective, has been that in the talks there has been a depth of theology, not just the push of an experience; there has been this depth of theology as the verses and the references have come out, but you have also told us of the experiences—what this would look like and what God can do. And beyond you describing this, we also saw what God did among us. So those two sides then—the Word and the Spirit—I would say we saw that, but I would say we also saw—I could put it this way—the Lion and the Lamb. There was a real confidence in the way I thought the talks came across, but also the gentility of getting to know the Person of the Holy Spirit. And I wondered—is this something that you’ve always had? Is it a style of preaching that you developed or what?

Rob Rufus
That’s an outstanding question, Tope. As I mentioned in the conference, before I became a Christian I was a Hare Krishna. I was practicing strict Hinduism very aesthetically. One of the things that attracted me to Christianity was that when I went to a meeting where the power of God was being manifested—where cripples were walking and deaf ears were opening and the power of God was there—it made me realize that Christianity can never be reduced just to a philosophy, but it has to declare that Jesus is alive; He is a risen living Saviour. So I came into the kingdom of heaven through seeing the supernatural—I was birthed in the miraculous. But then I had mentors that loved the Scriptures as well. We were kind of like charismatic Calvinists, in other words we had reformed theology of the sovereignty of God and the attributes of God and the awesomeness and the transcendence of God and the love for Scripture. But along with that was this recognition that Paul, one of the greatest apostles and one of the greatest theologians you could ever imagine—raised the dead. He moved in signs and wonders, the supernatural. So I think it’s fraudulent to say we are walking in a New Testament apostolic life if all we are is into the Spirit because that gets quite unusual and flaky and unhealthy after awhile. Or it’s fraudulent to say, “I’m apostolic; I’m into the Word of God, but we don’t have a demonstration of power. Paul had both, and I think that’s what good theology is. I mean, Jesus was the theologian of theologians, and he said to someone—you’re wrong because you don’t know the Scriptures AND the power of God. So he married the Word of God and the Scriptures together.

Adrian
Very good! Very good! So for you, growing up into that whole kind of charismatic Calvinist thing, you sort of laughed when you said it. Did you feel like you were a bit of an oddity? Were you aware there were others out there like that? Or was there just a small group of you and you felt a bit weird? Because that was our experience!

Rob Rufus
Adrian, that’s exactly how we felt! I got saved in 1977, I think, so it was the tail end of the hippie movement. We all had long hair and all of that stuff, and yet with the gifts of the Spirit in operation, we would do expository preaching right through the Bible. We would study books at a time—go through the book of Hebrews chapter by chapter.

Adrian
So your preaching wasn’t always like it was this week?

Rob Rufus
(Loud laughter) Of course not! I was inducted into Christianity through expository preaching, and that wasn’t me; it was my mentor.

Adrian
So you do that kind of expository preaching yourself?

Rob Rufus
I do occasionally. I have been in the church plant in Hong Kong for three years and I haven’t done a book yet in expository form. But we will. That is something I do. But in the middle of all that expository teaching, there were gifts of the Spirit—very passionate outreach and evangelism in the streets. So reformed denominations for whom I have great respect (I really do) who love the Scriptures—they couldn’t quite work us out. We were a bit of a strange case! We were charismatic Calvinists. And yet I feel like in today’s world, I think what’s happening is that a lot of committed evangelical people who love Jesus, who love the Scriptures, are suddenly to their relief, finding out that people who are full of the Spirit and know the supernatural power of God love the Scriptures as well. And I believe it’s giving them a sense that a bridging is taking place. I think, too, that those people who are moving in the power of God and love the Scriptures—we need to be humble and realize that evangelicals have a rich legacy that we can learn from, and I think we can enrich each other.

Continued in part 3 . . .

INTERVIEW – Preacher Rob Rufus

adrianwarnock — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:57:00 +0000

A few months ago it was my privilege to interview Rob Rufus. The audio version of that interview is available online, but thanks to two readers (Dan Bowden and a friend of Andrew Fountain) who both sent me transcripts of the MP3 lately, I am now able to publish the text version. It has only been lightly edited, so please do forgive us any grammatical errors that come from this being a conversation rather than careful writing. If you want to listen to the interview, the MP3 is available to download on the original post.

Adrian
The Together on a Mission conference has just ended, but I’m here, together with my pastor, Tope, and we’re here with Rob Rufus. Rob is going to talk to us a little bit about how the conference has been for him, and tell us a little bit more about his own church and his own family of churches, and just really share with us about that. So he’s kindly agreed to sit down—he’s probably a bit tired—but we’re going to have a good time, hopefully, this afternoon. So, Rob, first of all, how has this conference been for you?

Rob Rufus
I think it’s been very staggering and astonishing in a delightful way because what I experienced here was almost like the reward of the fruit of a number of years of New Frontiers preparing themselves, building a good wineskin. And by “wineskin” I mean the kind of authority structures we build the church with—biblical values and biblical vision. We are now positioned to really see God come in an amazing way. So I felt there was such a liberty and an openness to God’s visitation, to the supernatural of God, and I think a lot of that’s got to do with the understanding that the churches have on the theology of grace—the understanding of grace—and the security that we have in Christ. So, it’s been an incredibly enlarging time here; just the spirit of faith among the people, the sense of a global vision, and yet doing it together as a team, doing it together in a sense of partnership. So, for me, the overall sense of the ethos and the atmosphere was one of a group of people very zealous, very passionate, full of vision, yet who haven’t kissed their brains goodbye, well-grounded in good theology, sound doctrine, open to the power of the Holy Spirit, and real people who are really friendly with one another and enjoy one another’s company, and that’s been a delight.

Adrian
Excellent! Yeah, and it’s been great. Obviously, one of the features of this conference has been your own preaching, Rob. I just wonder for those who have not been at the conference, and perhaps have been following the blogs—how would you summarize your key message, just in a couple of sentences, of this conference—what you’d like people to take away, because, to be honest, taking notes hasn’t been that easy! (Loud laughter) Well, you could say that!

Rob Rufus
Yes, absolutely! I mean, I’m the worst person for writing notes myself, and then, of course, for people to be able to pick up notes, because I tend to be more spontaneous and impromptu. Probably what I’d like people to primarily take away in a few sentences is that, of course, God is turning up the supernatural—the volume of the demonstration of his power—not just for the sake of sensationalism for us to find ourselves popular or famous because of that, but because he wants to be glorified in the world, he wants to get the world’s attention. The primary essence I would like people to take away is that we don’t seek primarily the power of God, but we seek the person of God. We seek who he is, his glory. Because his power is what he does, but his glory and his presence is who he is, and that’s the only thing that will fulfill people—to know him personally. That sense of intimacy is such a delight; it gives us that fulfillment. Out of that he hides his power within his presence so you can live a supernatural life in a natural way because you’re not having to fast forty days to get the power—you can just walk with the person of God in intimacy and he releases his power out of that relationship with himself.

Adrian
Yes. I guess that some Christians sitting at home listening to this—I mean, I get readers on my blog from all kinds of different backgrounds—they’re going to listen to that and think, “What is this guy talking about? A relationship with God? I thought we just had a relationship with a Book!” What would you say to those kinds of people?

Rob Rufus
Well, it’s like—when I met my wife for the first time I was at university so I couldn’t spend time with her because the university was in a different city. So during the first six months, I could only see her every second or third weekend. We corresponded in those days—it was a long enough time ago it was by letters, not e-mails!—(loud laughter) and although her letters were perfumed and I loved reading her letters, I didn’t have a love relationship primarily with her letters, but with the author of the letters. So I longed to get to see the person who was writing the letter and meet her. So the Bible is, in a sense, perfumed with the presence of God—it’s God-breathed; it’s really his love letter to us. It’s an introduction for us to get to know the Author of the Book. That’s the delight!

Adrian
Yes, very good! So you are not one of those “charismaniacs” who want to throw out the Bible then, Rob?

Rob Rufus
Absolutely not, Adrian! That, I think, is the tragedy. Sadly the charismatics or Pentecostals (to some degree, not all!) have been known as a people who are kind of going on a binge of subjectivity. It’s all self-indulgent. You have got to have theological references to make sure that the supernatural experiences you are having are authentic because we do have the counterfeit in the world today; we do have deception in the world today. The Bible is the foundation that authenticates that we are having legitimate miraculous encounters with God.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Photography With a MacBook and iPhoto – Rob Rufus Photos

adrianwarnock — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:00:00 +0000

Observant readers of my blog will have noticed that I didn’t post any larger photos of Rob Rufus when I spoke about Together On A Mission and interviewed Rob Rufus. One reason for this was that the snapshots I took while we were together were ruined in my hurry as I had the camera on the wrong setting. As a result the color was all wrong and I thought they were beyond salvation.

Well, my MacBook and the wonderful iPhoto software came to the rescue. I have never been able to understand photography software (although Picasa from google was reasonably easy) and so was thrilled to see Tamasin and Henry master it in no time. They took one of the following two photos each and were able to repair them admirably. At moments like this a father is proud of his kids and a relatively new MacBook owner is proud of his laptop!

TOAM07 – Interview with Rob Rufus

adrianwarnock — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:55:00 +0000

UPDATE
In January 2008, the following post was identified as the 24th most-read post here on my blog. The 25th most popular post was “25% Off Logos Bible Software by Libronix.”

Interviewing Rob at the end of the Together on a Mission 2007 Conference was memorable, and those who listened to the mp3 will know just how much laughter was a part of the conversation. In December 2007, the written transcript of this interview with Rob Rufus was published on my blog and included the following segments:

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It was a real delight to sit with Rob Rufus and Tope Koleoso at the end of the conference for the following wide-ranging interview. I would strongly encourage you to listen to this, especially if you want to get more insight into what these apostolic families of churches look like in practice, or if you are just intrigued to learn more about the Holy Spirit.

You can download the mp3 or listen to it right here on the blog:

TOAM07 – Session 8: Rob Rufus on the Glory of God

adrianwarnock — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:41:00 +0000

Rob Rufus
Rob was saved out of the Hare Krishna movement. He has been used to release the power of the Holy Spirit and to bring healings to many people. Rob planted and led Victory Faith Centre, South Africa for twelve years and then worked with Dudley Daniel at Coastlands Christian Centre in Adelaide, Australia. In 2005 he moved to Hong Kong to plant a church, which is growing rapidly.

Rob began his talk today by sharing his story, and how God brought it back to him as he was preparing for this talk. God demonstrates his love to us with his manifest presence. When he was living away from God, there was a time when he suddenly experienced the presence of God in such a way that it terrified him. Eventually he gave up running from Jesus. Then the presence came in such a way that he felt special and precious and valued by God. Since then, he says the pursuit of his life has been seeking the presence of God. Seeking the power of God leads to a life of utter unfulfilment.

We need to be sane, not religious. Some people who seem to move in the most power seem strange and almost insane. Jesus was not like that. He enjoyed being with people, would be in the middle of festivities. Jesus turned gallons of water into wine. Evangelicals have been trying to turn it back again for centuries. God wants us to be full of the abundant power of God. When we are filled with the glory of God we will be changed. This new ministry found in 2 Corinthians 3 is something fresh and delightful, bringing life. Liberty and freedom and grace come upon us and we are seen as perfect forever (Hebrews 10:14). We now carry the power of God in our frail bodies.

We can’t live for the crowds, success, and miracles. We will never be satisfied with the power. We will only be satisfied with who God is, not just what God does. The presence of God thrills us and fulfils us. Enjoy the presence of God. Become a close friend of God. We need God-encounters to hear his voice, to experience him. In his presence there is always fullness of joy and pleasures forevermore.

Acts 9. Saul asked a question and answered it in the same verse: “Who are you, Lord?” Saul was saved on the Damascus road, but only filled with the Spirit when Ananias prayed for him. While Saul was persecuting, he (unbeknown to him) had already been set apart to be an Apostle. We are told he had been set apart from his mother’s womb. When the glory comes, you are suddenly in the eternal realm. We are commanded to “Arise and shine, for your light has come!” Isaiah 60. We must take God out of the box in which we place him in our minds. He is eternally glorious and can do anything.

The Bible is full of signs and wonders. The best way to contradict counterfeit signs and wonders is to see the genuine wonders of God. The true prophetic sees the future and becomes the future in the now by coming into the cloud of the glory. What we are looking for is the powers of the age to come to break back into this current realm.

Once again this was a very difficult talk to take notes on. There was a strong sense of the presence of God in the room, and a desire to see more of God’s glory manifest in our experience. This is a talk to listen to rather than read about. At the end of the message, a number of people testified to having been healed this week, mostly without anyone having prayed for them. It will be interesting to hear the confirmation of what God has been doing.

TOAM07 – Session 2: Rob Rufus

adrianwarnock — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:50:00 +0000

Technical issues prevented us from publishing my friend Pedro’s notes of the first day until now. Pedro said that of the meetings so far, he was pleased to see how well attended the conference had been, and he was very pleased to see the response of the people from different churches. He felt that there was a strong sense of the presence of God. During the session led by Rob Rufus, he was reminded of the beauty of serving God, and also the beauty of knowing that he is all powerful and wants us to hook up with his power. Here are Pedro’s notes from the second session:

Rob eagerly urged the people of God to live a day at a time—sufficient is the day’s evil. We are entering days when ministers will enjoy serving the Lord by letting God carry their burdens through ministering to the Lord and he ministering to the people.
We are in the days of strong prophecy, and prophecy creates potentials and connects us to God when we receive it. We need to be filled with the spirit of faith—is not only for the ministers or for special people; it is for all of God’s people. It is important to note that we’re not talking of intellectual faith that is rampant in our world today. That kind of faith is tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
We are constantly confronted by two kingdoms—the kingdom of the earth and the kingdom of heaven, and we reflect the one of which we are most conscious. The spirit of faith is more important than the intellectual doctrine of faith. When we step out into the supernatural, we will receive opposition, but boldness will activate and encourage the spirit of faith—faith is not passive.
The joy of the Lord is our strength, and it enables us to worship God without shame.

TOAM07 – Session 5: Rob Rufus on Faith and Healing

adrianwarnock — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:58:00 +0000

Here we are with session five, which is the second one I have attended. I already feel like I’m at home. I love conferences, and especially conferences with this worldwide family I’m so thrilled to be part of. These conferences have been a part of my life for several decades. I wish I could bring all of you, my dear readers, here. These notes aim to give you something of a feel for the event. But I’m not sure I can communicate it properly. There are some things that writing can’t communicate. For example, meeting Andy Cottingham in a break and seeing how affected he was, I knew that what he had said in his post could not in any way have communicated the strongly passionate and emotional state he was in!

Rob Rufus
Rob was saved out of the Hare Krishna movement. He has been used to release the power of the Holy Spirit and to bring healings to many people. Rob planted and led Victory Faith Centre, South Africa for twelve years and then worked with Dudley Daniel at Coastlands Christian Centre in Adelaide, Australia. In 2005 he moved to Hong Kong to plant a church, which is growing rapidly.

See also Andrew Fountain’s notes from this talk: The Spirit of Faith.

Rob Rufus began by explaining that he was changing his plans as he had felt prompted to change track. He launched straight into explaining that faith is not faith in faith, but faith in God. He recapped that he had spoken about a primitive faith that was in the early church. Rob Rufus explained that faith is contagious and courageous. Faith in others provokes you to take initiave yourself. Faith should produce humility, boldness, and obedience. Unbelief causes fear, pride, and rebellion.

Rob also admitted that it is difficult to take notes from his talks, so I apologise up front for the fact that I will not be able to reflect the full-orbed content of this talk. At least it will be available to download for free soon!

Rob was eager to dispel the myth that God only responds to our prayers and that he does nothing unless we pray. This is quite simply not true, for whose prayer did God answer when he created the universe! God really is sovereign and has his own initiative, although he does choose to respond to us at times. Jesus went wherever he felt God was leading him. Our faith is not running the universe. Spurgeon said something like the serenity of God is not an excuse for our laziness; it is a couch for our restfulness.

We must realise that living by faith does not mean that nothing bad will ever happen to us or our children. Paul was a mighty man of faith, but terrible troubles hit him, which he called “light and momentary troubles.”

We should be honest with God. Tell him, “I don’t have faith for that.” God doesn’t just give grace for the humble, he gives faith to the humble. We shouldn’t say it’s not God’s will to heal today just because of our inability to pray for healing. The disciples couldn’t heal a boy, then Jesus came and did so. Jesus himself said, “All things are possible for those who believe.” We are weak and need God to help us. “Lord, I believe, help my unbelief.”

We need to learn to exercise the spirit of faith. We have to take steps of boldness. Peter got out of the boat and, yes, he sank, but it’s better to die trying to walk on the water than to stay safe in the religious boat of doing nothing. Rob told several stories from his own experience of when God both had and had not healed people for whom he had prayed. He felt the exercise of faith which had led to nothing had somehow increased his faith to later pray and see healings result. He also spoke of times when God had sovereignly healed people in their church who had not been prayed for. Teaching God’s Word produces faith. Words of knowledge can give specific faith for a specific case of healing.

Acts 6. Miracle faith is also activated through impartation. The apostles appointed those who were possibly the first deacons. After they had been prayed for, and hands had been laid on them, signs and wonders followed. Rob told us, “Don’t fight against the sovereignty of God, but don’t fight against the initiative of faith.”