This sermon is a good illustration of the difference between what Ed Stetzer calls an “aspirational charismatic” and one who pursues God for all he has for us today.  I urge you to watch it, and be stirred to enjoy what Jesus has purchased for us.  Downloads are available on the Jubilee site.

Terry Virgo recently preached for a weekend at Covenant Life Church, the church previously lead by C.J. Mahaney. Virgo preached his heart out about the Spirit-Filled church to a strong response. Virgo is no merely aspirational charismatic, and reports are that many received a touch from the Spirit after these sermons.

Wendy Virgo’s blog about her recent time with her husband, Bob Roberts, and some other key Christian leaders is well worth a read, here is an extract:

A few days ago I was travelling in a van with a bishop from Mombasa, a church leader from Cote d’Ivoire, a Christian Palestinian, a converted Muslim now church planter from Bangladesh, an Indian pastor from Tamil Nadu among others. The people in that car represented about 3 million Christians around the world.

What on earth do such giants talk about?  Food; family; language. There was a lot of laughter, tentative questions finding out a little about each other: in fact, the sort of inconsequential conversation that a diverse group might make anywhere in the world.   (How many children do you have? What do you like to eat?) These global leaders were drawn together by Bob Roberts, a Texan church planter from Dallas with a huge heart for mission, and it was a massive privilege to rub shoulders with them and for Terry to preach to them and a number of gathered church planters from across the USA . . .

Some live in danger of their lives; one had his house burned down; some had planted churches of tens of thousands; all had remarkable stories of how the love of Jesus had reached them and transformed their lives.  As they shared from the platform we heard moving testimonies, wise comments, and carefully worded opinions all delivered with humility and dignity. We were amazed by Dion Robert’s story of how his church has grown to 40,000 and his movement to 200,000; moved by Daniel’s search for truth in Vietnam; and not unsympathetic to Kenyan Joseph who refused to be confined to the required 20 mins and preached superbly on prayer for 55mins!

Terry and I were especially honoured to have lunch with Eddy and his wife Rosa from Jakarta in Indonesia. Eddy, embracing and utilizing all the Ephesians 4 ministries, has grown a massive cell church, in that vast city

Behind the Scenes with Giants | The Wendy House.

Ed Stetzer is a great friend to many movements.  I do not think that there is anyone who preachers today to a broader range of evangelicalism. One thing that makes that possible is that he is ever eager to understand what movements actually do stand for.  It was such a blessing having him preach at Jubilee Church London a while back.  It was a flying visit (though we did get to go round the Churchill museum with our wives!) and I think it was his first introduction to a Newfrontiers meeting. Now he has had a chance to worship with some of our American brothers, here are some of his thoughts:

I think it is fascinating to find a movement that is charismatic and Calvinist. Some Reformed movements say they are charismatic, but at Newfrontiers, they are not just “aspirational charismatics.” (I would say that many “new Calvinists” like to use the term “charistmatic” to refer to themselves, but they would not really fit the widely used description– they “aspire” to be, but are not really.) . . .

As I mentioned, these folks say they are charismatics and they worship and live as such. If you are interested in learning more, Terry Virgo has written a helpful book that will give you a picture of the the values of their churches. The Spirit Filled Church gives a fascinating picture of a family of churches that values Reformed theology, expository preaching, and charismatic theology. (My endorsement calls it a “must read” to understand this movement).

READ MORE AT Ed Stetzer – New Frontiers USA– Some Reflections on Calvinists and Charismatics.

As I write this Terry Virgo has just begun an extended trip to the USA and Mexico with his wife Wendy. Terry is clearly deeply committed to helping the global church, including in the USA. He is preaching every Sunday between now and 11th December, a schedule that a man half his age might struggle with. I was due to be at the Newfrontiers USA conference where Terry and Ed Stetzer will be speaking, but sadly have had to cancel being there.

I am sure Terry would appreciate our prayers, and if you live in the USA, why not check out his diary and see if you can attend one of the meetings he will be at. He will be in the Ozarks, St Louis, Kenosha, Texas (with Bob Roberts) and a bunch of other places. You really won’t be disappointed if you are able to get to one of the meetings!

The Reformed, Charismatic & Missional conference, put on by Acts29 and Newfrontiers was a great success this year.  The speakers for the weekend included Terry Virgo, Jeff Vanderstelt and Eliot Grudem.  Confluence author Bryan Mowrey got a chance to sit down with each of these leaders and ask some questions a lot of people have been asking.

In this video, Bryan speaks with Terry Virgo about roadblocks he has hit in helping people fully embrace charismatic gifts in life and leadership .

Thanks to http://www.confluenceblog.com/

During Adrian’s month away from the blog, he has hand-picked a selection of the most popular posts of the year so far to re-run. 

Today we feature, “The Spirit-Filled Church.” Adrian’s posts on Terry Virgo’s book the Spirit-Filled Church have been quite popular this year.  This book describes a biblical model for the church, and whether you agree with all of it or not you will benefit from reading.  Video interviews, a chapter extract and Adrian’s forward are all availalbe.

The Spirit-Filled Church

Terry Virgo is a leader I have been looking up to spiritually for more than three decades. The founding leader of a family of over eight hundred churches in sixty nations, he is a godly, humble man whose preaching has shaped many thousands of lives, including my own. Newfrontiers, is a unique movement, being reformed in doctrine, charismatic in experience, missional in outlook, and strongly rooted in relationships.

Terry’s book The Spirit-Filled Church forms an excellent introduction to the principles that have shaped his ministry.

The rest of this article is available through the following link:

The Spirit-Filled Church by Terry Virgo

Terry Virgo ‘s blog redesign launched today.  It looks really nice, pop over and check it out. There are interviews, sermons, blog posts, and a calendar of future events. Terry is coming to the USA for several weeks later in the year, you would do well to come and attend one of these events.

Terry explained that he felt God say to him that for this session he should “Just sit down and talk to them.” He explained that he had been looking at the last part of Hebrews, and it was good stuff but it wasn’t coming into a sermon form. He felt God said to him “what would you like to stay at this historic moment?” As Ginny prophesied tonight would be “a coming of age party” for Newfrontiers. So Terry wanted to highlight some things that really matter to him. What has been helping him over the decades?

1. Everything is God’s initiative. Its true historically, theologically. It is God who initiated. It is the Mission of God. We are not trying to draw God into our mission. He gives us the chance to get caught up in his mission. God came to us while we were helpless, dead, enemies of God. We weren’t seeking God. God knew you from before time, before he created anything. He chose us, we didn’t choose him. God’s free grace runs through our DNA as a movement. God came to us in amazing mercy. It has given us a sense of destiny. There is a purpose about my life. I didn’t stumble on this. God had an idea before he interrupted my life. God chose us in spite of who we are. “The grace of God upon my life is not dependent on me, on what I have done or deserved.” Terry spoke of a time recently where he was singing that song and couldn’t continue for laughing at the wonder of what God did with him, a backslidden Christian.  God has a purpose for us and he broke in. We should ask him, Lord I want to know what you have called me for.

2. God’s enabling and empowering. The coming on of the Holy Spirit was not just an academic issue for Terry, it was an issue of life and death. Even when he tried to live as a Christian and be a witness he couldn’t do it. Coming on of the Holy Spirit changes everything. He wanted to receive power. When the Spirit came upon someone, the next word is nearly always “and.” He comes on us not simply for ourselves. When power comes on us we are transformed. It changed everything for Terry at the age of 22. He wanted to serve God at that time. God’s Spirit changed things. When you believe in the coming of the Spirit you are wrestling with things like what PJ spoke of yesterday. Terry told his testimony about how he got filled and then shared the testimony with others. It leaves many enigmas and challenges. There are times when our hearts are aching because we don’t see more. But we need to spend more time with the Holy Spirit, get to know him, and experience more power. We need more of the Holy Spirit. We don’t dial down our engagement with the Holy Spirit in order to be more missional!

3. God’s commissioning We want to build on an apostolic and prophetic foundation. We want to build on genuinely sent ones. Not just theologically trained, but actually sent. God must commission. God came to Moses and said “I send you!” It is that call that is critical. Not pleasing men but pleasing God! Matthew Parris urged Christians to stop trying to reconcile their beliefs to this age! We answer to the one who called us. We don’t go with the trend. We stand for reformed theology, for charismatic ministry, for apostles and prophets, for complementary roles for men and women, for grace, etc. We believe God has said do it this way, we will not just copy those who say do it another way. We are answerable to him.
4. Being a servant. We just do what we are told. Doesn’t require explanations. If Jesus says fill the water-pots with water, if you are a servant you don’t have to have an explanation you just do it. The disciples got used to doing what they were told. At key points in the history of Newfrontiers Terry explained they have simply followed the prompting of God. Such as when they were told to stop Stonliegh or this conference. We go through a process, we don’t jump to conclusion. We hear it together. That’s all that’s needed if you are a servant. God is happy when he found David as it says he is “a man who will do my will.” We just trust him with things outside our control. We trust his ability to provide. God has promised that we would help millions of people. We are to be the servant of God. It is a massive honor to be his servant. The world is waiting to see a church that looks like it is answering to God. We are not meant to try to get nearer to the worlds tune. We must be out of step with the world, offering them something other than what is pulling the world down.
5. Faith. God wants him to trust him more than we do. God loves robust faith. Sometimes you look at a ministry that is successful and think, I don’t agree with some of what they say but God loves faith. God is doing phenomenal things in our day. We are little league. God is doing massive things today. The more the China church grows (and it is millions now) their economy is becoming stronger on the back of a protestant work ethic. Beware the danger of a passive Calvinism. Jesus challenged his followers when they couldn’t cast out a demon “its your little faith.” He didn’t say “it wasn’t the will of God.” He said it comes from prayer. We need to get out from cynicism.
6. Prayer is absolutely fundamental. “A move of God will last as long as it retains the Spirit of prayer that brought it to birth.” Prayer must be at the center. Make sure prayer be at the hub of what you do. Do you want to be like Jesus? He prayed a lot!
7. Gathering a team That has been wonderful. Friends, companions. What has he gained? Friendship at a deep level. Not just co-laborers. Partners. Koinonia. Partnership. Same vision. Complementary gifts. People who make up for his areas of lack. Vulnerability makes a team. That’s how it works. Not a lot of yes men. Not clones. “I am not wroth cloning I have a team because I need a team.” Couldn’t exist without drawing on these men and women that God has built around us. Prayer partners. Men of the Spirit. Prophetic conversations. Love one another, on the same page. Want to see what someone is hearing. Get before God together as a team. Love, trust, fellowship, men of the Spirit. Men who will disagree.

Submission isn’t saying yes all the time. Make your point, argue your case, at the end we say “We are in this together” and you all go. Comradeship where we discuss issues. Terry spoke about some of his team, and who will be continuing the work moving forwards taking more responsibility.

David Holdon who he had known since a boy, now a spiritual father. David Devenish who again he has known for decades, has become a phenomenal leader, teacher, travelling into the Muslim and Russian-speaking world. Colin Baron who is willing to travel thousands of miles to sit and talk to key players and unravel stuff. Often out of the light, behind the scene. Perceptive, sees round corners. Simon Pettit was a major contributor, with his passion, love for God, laughter before he died suddenly. David Stroud, who has become a statesman, in God, such leadership skills. Now more UK-based apostlic teams are emerging. Jeremy Simkins who has grown into a man of weight. Just seing all that has happened in the North has been encouraging said Terry, men rallying to Jeremy’s leadership and gift. Mike Betts coming through, young men wanting to be with him, his passion for God. Guy Miller, who has raised up churches in Portugal, Spain, India. God is raising up these ministries.

In Africa when Simon suddenly died, he had already handed his church over to Stephen Van Rhyn who is helping other churches there. PJ Smyth who has such evidence of the hand of God on him, and a great church coming to birth. Scott Marquis, who is hard to keep up with in his work in Southern Africa. Steve Oliver who met with God in Cape Town, planted out in South Africa and saw poor people who were raised up to become pastors. Suddenly called to Dubai. Such a strategic place. Edward Burio… you cant keep up with him! Handful of churches that have grown massively since. Transforming society. Working with the poor. A father to thousands. John KpiKpi who came to Brighton as a student, now working into 7 nations into West Africa. Teams coming out from one team. John Lanferman, overseeing the work in America from coast to coast, with churches being planted. Same values are there, and it keeps growing. Lee Yarboroguh, in Mexico, now a number of churches in Mexico. Right across the nations. There are many others who have been with us for many years. Men like Steve Tibbert, and others who serve.

Terry explained that tonight we are praying for the current snapshot like in a family.  It is recognizing what already is happening. But in the wings are many other young men coming through who are breaking through, he listed men like Matt Hatch, Joel Virgo, Tope Koleoso, and others.  There are growing ranks of them. It is about a transition from one team to many.  There will be more teams in the future. People will rally to one of these band of brothers.

The apostles will often meet together, for a season Terry will still join with them.  Gathering of equal interdependent apostles which Dave Devinish will facilitate. Some apostolic figures will travel between the teams. He sees that the men coming through in Newfrontiers are brilliant skillful men. They can carry the passion and drive. Terry felt he could be in danger of becoming the blunt edge, we need the sharpness of a new generation

Terry believes God has given him great promises for the future. He will still be traveling. Later this year he will be going to 5 places in the USA, where only 2 of them will be Newfrontiers. He is increasingly being invited into other worlds. Going wider.

God is opening doors all over the place. God has given us a voice. God has plenty for Terry and Wendy to get on with. The Newfrontiers Brighton office will close.  Terry Will be going to Kingston to help in a young church there. Will be travelling. Will be going in like a grandfather. Encouraging, the responsibility rolls into the hands of the new generation.  Recently one of his sons said to him its a bit like John the Baptist “You grow less and less, they grow more and more”
Terry said it immediately reminded him of an old prophecy given to him in his first church: “Young men prepare yourself for ministry in this place as Terry will grow less and less, you will grow more and more.” In the context, the prophecy was stating that  whe would go out from that church more and more. This is the same thing that is happening now.

At the end of the session Terry also especially honored Nigel Ring who has been so instrumental in building Newfrontiers into what it is today.  It is truly amazing what God has done through the friendship of these two men.  After all the whole thing started when a young Nigel Ring asked if his pastor friend could come and speak to some Christians in his lounge who were beginning to receive the Holy Spirit, and wonder what to do after being thrown out of an evangelical church.  My own parents started attending that church in Haywards Heath very early on.  So I have grown up watching what was a tiny group of people in Sussex grow into an army that spans the globe.  840 churches are now in Newfrontiers according to the latest figures.  What an impact.  What a wonderful way that God delights in using a few to bless the many.  As we now in effect see the beginning of many more apostolic spheres, what kind of a global impact can we all have together?  When you consider that there are of course so many other church groups that God is blessing as well that are nothing to do with Newfrontiers, you have to feel very positive about the future of the Church around the world.

Terry began by speaking about his own book, Spirit-Filled Church, having first made the point that there are also many books in the bookstore here that he recommends that are written by writers outside our movement.  Bob Roberts, Ed Stetzer, and many other names familiar to readers of the blog are represented here.

Terry preached on Hebrews 12 once more. You can download the audio, or read my notes here:

We saw yesterday what it means to get started in the race, and how to get rid of things that tie us down. But in the race we can get weary. Now we are told to consider him. It is a pondering.  Keep your eyes on him.  Christ genuinely is the answer.  Paul said we don’t preach ourselves, but Jesus preached himself all the time “come to me!”  He presented himself as the answer.  He inspires robust faith. Terry spoke about an old Chinese believer he once met who had suffered prison, but said, “nothing compares to the cross.”

Don’t forget the word that addresses you as sons. God sent Jesus to demonstrate what sonship looks like to us, and to bring many sons to glory.  He is looking for many people like Jesus. He will shape them, mould them, grow them.  We are not just sinners who found our way to heaven, we are sons of God!

He is working for our holiness.  God is looking to bring us through. When we feel pressure it is not because he has lost us from his gaze, it is proof that we belong. The true believer knows that God has his hand on him, that he is taking him through trials.  It is evidence of God’s love for us.

When the eagle stirs the nest she is very focused and has a goal.  She wants her young to fly. It is proof she has ambition for her young.  She wants them to catch the breeze.  God disciplines his sons, that’s the evidence of his love.

God says Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.  But look at his life, does he look like one specially loved? He has to run away from home, sleeps in the open air, falls in love, is given seven years later the wrong one.  Esau was rich without the hassles Jacob had.  But Jacob knows how to bless Pharaoh.  Jacob is put through all sorts of trials. You are to know that God who begun a work in you will complete it.  He uses things that happen to us.  The Bible teaches us, but experiences also get under our skin and into our inner person.

People might steal stuff.  They might steal your reputation, perhaps blog stuff about you things that are not true.  People suffer the loss. Disappointment, delay, things we don’t understand.  There is something in us that wants to know (see Adam and Eve’s temptation).  God lets things happen to you that make no sense at all.

He is doing these things because he loves us like a father.  God does it that we might share his holiness.  God has set an incredible goal for us.  What kind of privilege is that? We can get smug and think we have our doctrine straight.  But God keeps on disciplining us so that we continue to grow us.  We need shake up experiences that wake us up.  He does it to save us from pride.  The Bible says of the people of God that he led them through the wilderness to humble them.

King David was anointed, became the darling of Israel through his defeating the enemy, then finds himself hiding in a cave.  God cares about us. He wants us on course.  It is so that we don’t trust in ourselves but in him who raises from the dead.

Sometimes God breaks us to make us. Brokenness is not everything.  But the Bible does say that God will look at the one who is humble and contrite and trembles at his word.  Sometimes we have to be softened so we can more sensitively serve those you serve.  The psalmist says, “it was good for me that I was afflicted.”

People who suffer don’t automatically become holy. Some of them do, but some of them become bitter.  It is only those who are trained by the experience who benefit from it.  It is very possible to go through a tough time and not discern.  Some people shake off suffering, and didn’t learn a thing.  Don’t despise it.  Don’t miss the point.  Don’t faint.  Don’t regard it lightly.  Don’t say, “Oh, you don’t love me!”  Don’t go down the tube when God starts dealing with you.  Don’t allow a root of bitterness to grow up, spoiling many.

God sometimes uses people to humble us. We need to obtain grace.  God uses agents in our lives, we mustn’t focus on them.  We must ask God what are you teaching me?  Don’t let bitterness shape your character.  Instead obtain grace.  It is the only alternative.  There will be waves of difficulty.  You either let them pile up and become bitter or obtain grace and let them go.

Jesus learned obedience. How does the perfect one learn? It was through the things he suffered.  He learned to be a man, to stand where we stand.  He learned from people treating him shamefully.  He was perfected through the things that he suffered.

When bad things happen, sometimes even family members mistreat us badly.  We must get free of it. I don’t want to keep going over that letter. I want to let it go.  We need churches to be free from people who are carrying bitterness.  Don’t carry the hurt.  Maybe a leader bullied them before, now they respond to the new pastor badly.  You can mess up Gods great plan in your church.  Let God deal with you as a son so I can share your holiness.  Right to the end, Jesus said forgive them.  He wants many sons in glory.  He wants us all to be like that.  Obtain grace. Refuse bitterness.  Let God purge it out of your soul.

The word dialogues with you, addresses you, reasons with you.  It is saying “come on enter into understanding my son, my daughter, I love you, I am for you!”  “God is not getting even, he got even at the cross!” RT Kendall.  He never turns against you.  God is not trying to loose you.  God hasn’t forgotten you.  God is in control.  He is handling this.  God doesn’t want you to be lame.  Not godly to just dismiss people.  He wants to set you free from the way you are.  So that you can be healed.  If you are trained by it.  Gods goal was to fix it, but if we misinterpret then we will be weaker still.  You are the apple of his eye, his workmanship.  Learn, humble yourself.

Is there anything in your life where you are touchy? Maybe theres something in you that hurts.  You think people are getting at me again, they don’t understand me.  Loosen it up.  Let God deal with you. Face the pain, don’t have no-go areas.

Pursue peace with all men. It is an active word.  Strive for.  Make every effort.  Afterwards you will understand.  What is happening now you may not grasp.  But sorrow endures for the night and joy comes in the morning.  God is on your case.  If you don’t know the discipline of the Lord, it is then that you should be worried!  Those whom the Lord loves he disciplines.  He is looking after you.  Don’t be a grumbler.  Walk in freedom.  Don’t carry bitterness for another day, leave it here.  Obtain grace.  Pursue peace.  Make straight paths.  God wants to engage with you right now.

This morning Terry Virgo tweeted “Thanks @PastorMark for your courage & clarity in motivating us in Newfrontiers to move forward. Here we go!”  He was of course referring to the time Driscoll came and lobbed a few grenades in our direction.  Driscoll urged us to pray for Terry that he would know the right timing to hand over this movement.  He actually said “to a man, or men,” though most of us heard it as to a single man.  This week, Terry is handing over Newfrontiers but not to a single man, but rather to a group of men that are considered to be emerging as apostles.  Rather than a single sphere, this will now be a band of brothers, many of whom are in effect movement leaders in their own right.  Through this expansion, surely we will by God’s grace be enabled to increase the rate of church planting, which was one of Driscoll’s challenges to us.

Driscoll’s impact has been felt in another way.  He urged us to put more things in writing.  It was never going to be our style to write a statement of faith as such, but now there are a growing number of books that explain our values and practices. I cannot remember a time when so many new books by Newfrontiers writers have been made available.  A number of them are released this very week.  If you are someone who is peripherally aware of us, you could do worse than starting with reading Spirit-filled Church.

After another pumping time of worship, PJ was given the opportunity to share what has happened this past year. He explained that he has been told he is in remission from his cancer. It was an emotional moment as it was quite literally this time last year that we all heard of the diagnosis. He explained that he is currently feeling very well, and the only lasting effects are tiredness (he needs 10 hours sleep a night) and some damage to his leg after a DVT. He is praying for healing for that, but said that someone had told him it is good to lead with a limp.

Terry Virgo then, before preaching, recommended Dave Devenish’s book Fathering Leaders (which is one of the books I am able to offer a few free copies of this month). He explained our belief that apostles were not merely Scripture writers. Rather, there is a role that the church needs in every generation. He said, “I have never seen such a thorough biblical approach to the role of the apostle.”

It was not pre-planned that Hebrews would be a theme this week, but Terry and Scott felt led separately to preach on these two chapters. You can listen to this talk or read my notes here.

World mission is tough. It’s not a game. It’s the biggest battle in world history. Hebrews 11 has a succinct definition of faith, but the best way to demonstrate this is to put it on display. The phenomenal things that people did by faith. Chapter 12 is a turning point with the world “therefore.” What about a response. Romans 12:1 is another example of this turning point, where he says, in view of the previous 11 chapters. We come in after what God has done. We are not initiators we are responders to this phenomenal kindness that God has done for us.

We are surrounded by a cloud, a thick large crowd. It is watching what they have done that speaks to us. The Bible is not a philosophical book, nor a systematic theology. It is a book that tells the story of people who had a relationship with him. Here is God in life. Even for example, the God who sees is revealed to a woman who had been thrown out. There is story after story, and the testimony comes, believe him. The Bible stories aim to stimulate faith. God wants us to be affected by them.

It is not that they are watching us. It is that we are watching them. Witness in the Bible tends to mean “bearing witness.” They are telling. It is the same word as “martyr.” We are not the center. Those who have gone before have someone else they would rather be looking at! But it is as though they are telling us “we were stuck, and guess what the sea opened!” Moses is shouting at us “He is faithful!” Joshua is saying “when we shouted, the walls fell down.” They are telling us we are not alone. We are not the first to prove God! There is a huge number who are telling us to keep going!

As we run this race, it’s not a hundred yard dash. It is more like a marathon. A contest that lies before you. In preparation lay aside the weights. As the NIV puts it, “everything that hinders.” Get free from anything that entangles you. What stops me? What holds me back?

Paul asks in Gal 5:7, “who hindered you?” When Paul finished, the legalists came behind. False brothers spy out our freedom. Legalism stops you racing. It can hinder whole groups of churches. Shake it off.

There can also be a misapplication of grace. You can take the idea that you don’t have to get browny points with God. I can lie in bed instead of praying. There is a danger that laziness actually stops us running. Its as though you are entangled with your liberty. Everything is permissible, but not all things are profitable. We mustn’t be enslaved by anything. The new way of measuring things is will it help me in the race. There needs to be a ruthlessness. We must be overwhelmed by the grace of God. But we have another value system that effects us.

All kinds of things can trip you up. Even good things, like “honour your father and mother.” Jesus says to someone who wants to follow him but bury his father first. Jesus says “let the dead bury their dead. Follow me.” You might say “I am going” but then the family say “what about us?” Sometimes there are costs for families. Sometimes people then say, “we can’t go.” Hudson Taylor laid aside a Christian girlfriend who loved the Lord but not China. Rub shoulders with giants of the faith like that and let something of them rub off on you.

We are authentically together on a mission and it takes some commitment. We come in after the others who have gone before and we are in a family.

Lay aside the sin that can entangle you.

Hebrews does not say we are sinners. Paul says in his epistles that we are saints. We are now light. We are slaves of righteousness. We have changed our identity. Old has passed away. All has become new. God has done a phenomenal job on us. And yet, sin can so easily entangle us. It is not our world but it can take us out of the race. We live in a world that is against God. The world bombards us with it’s value system. We need to glory in the cross so the world is crucified to me. Don’t be like Demas who loved this present age. The flesh will tug at us. We have yet to be given new bodies. Don’t let sin reign. Don’t give it power. Put aside the works of the flesh. We can do it now! When we know what God has done for us, we can stop sinning. We have the authority to lay it aside. It is not too powerful for you! The power of sin has been broken.

Lay aside Satan’s accusations. Depression is the greatest battle. Despondency. “You wont make it, you are useless, call yourself a Chrsitian?” You either take it on board and say you are a wretch, or you say “no, it is written we overcome him by the blood of the lamb.” Jesus has made us righteous! Satan wants you to think you are a dead loss. Refuse it!

Don’t get taken out of the race. Be careful. We want to run to the end. I want to win.

There is one sin that the writer to the Hebrews is fighting against: unbelief. He describes it as an “evil heart of unbelief.”

Heb 3:10 says he was furious, 4:10 says “they will never go in.” Joshua took out 31 kings. The people in the land were terrified of them. God was angry with them when they refused to go forward. It is our faith that overcomes. God is not pleased with a false humility that says “we cant do anything for God.”

“Don’t draw back!” Lets believe God for nation after nation and city after city. God has called and commissioned us. Don’t be tripped up. Run the race. NIV says “race marked out for you.” There is a course determined for you. Every one of them has a different task. Noah built an ark, Moses crossed a sea. It is different for everyone. “God delights to deal singerly with us as though there was no one else to love.” R.T, Kendle.

Don’t say “its easier for him” he has a different race! Persevere do not slip into passive mode. Patience is not “OK, God will work it out at some time.” There is a delay. I thought it would happen quicker than this.

Don’t be sluggish. Be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Creation is straining to see the revelation of the sons of God. Its not “I guess God will do it one day.” Its not resignation God is looking for. Joseph kept believing, he didn’t let go of the promise. Keep your mind bright.

Elijah was able to say to the king, it wont rain till I say so. Then he tells the king it is coming, but has to pray it in. Had to pray five times. He kept believing. Every time he sent the boy he expected the cloud. Keep your spirit alive.

Looking away to Jesus. Don’t get besotted with the things in your face. Look to the human Jesus who was the pioneer and pefector. Focus on him. He brings faith to its conclusion. He walked into death. He was not spared by his Father. Jesus was handed over to brutal Roman soldiers who brutally crucified him. He perfected faith. It was shameful. Jesus went through all that. The loss of fellowship with the Father. He is on his own. He knows that God will not let his body stay in the grave. God cursed him. He took our curse. He despised the shame. He felt it was not worth thinking about. Jesus was looking forward to something. Isaiah 53-55 tells us there is a joy behind the black day. He had come for a glorious bride. He had set his eye on the prize. The prize was millions of believers reconciled to God. There is a new heavens and new earth coming. Everything will praise him. Redeemed will be there. The whole earth is like the temple in the OT. Nothing unclean will enter in. The worldly system has gone. The flesh has been replaced with new bodies, which do not tug you any more. The Devil? He is in the fire. A multitude of believers that no man can number. God knows all of us by name and knows our story. We are not a number to him! He will dwell with us. God among us. Jesus enthroned for ever with no election coming! He reigns for ever. HE didn’t regard the cross. We cannot conceive what he has in store for us. We cant imagine what it will be.

“The greatest labour of love that ever happened was possible because Jesus pursued the greatest imaginable joy, namely the joy of being exalted at God’s right hand in the fellowship of believers.”

There is too much at stake. Make the choices you need to do. We want there to be the glory of God filling the world. We want to see conferences like this all over the world. Keep your eye on Jesus. Consider what he did. Lets run this race, lets glorify him, lets be to him a praise and a joy.

What we do in our current lives is of eternal importance. As Newfrontiers we are just at the end of the beginning. We have barely started. We want to keep our eyes on him and glorify his name.

Adrian: So here’s the thing, you look at all of that, it’s all going fantastic. And there are points along the line where there’s been these transitional moments. Like Downs comes then you stop it. Then you have an advance. Stoneleigh comes along and 10 years in you stop it and advance. Now the Brighton conference, and thats now coming to an end. This is the last Brighton conference. But there’s other changes as well. But why would you kind of mess it up? When actually it’s worked so well? You and your friends and there’s a sense in which I know you are going to change the way you are going to relate to New Frontiers organisationally. You’re not disappearing are you? But can you just talk a little bit about that because a lot of people out there, I don’t know that they’re necessarily aware of what that looks like. Thinking both of those who are in New Frontiers who are watching this but also thinking of those who are maybe on the outside, thinking ‘how do you transition a movement’ because you don’t want to wait till you’ve died, I think is that the issue? Hopefully that’s a long way off.

Terry: (laughing) yeah, I would like to think that. I think that life changes, and if a thing is living, it changes. So, I’ve had the high privilege of having 5 children, which has been an immense joy. And you watch them change – they grow, they get married, they have children and everything transitions. That’s what life is like. You can’t hold a thing down, ’No! Stay a child, you were so beautiful as a baby’. It’s wonderful to see them grow. And then you meet Pastors and you see them grow into stature and you think ‘Wow, this is wonderful!’. So over the years you see things changes. Not that we are changing them, because there is life, it changes. And I love the seasons.

I love living in England because one of the things I love about England is that the four seasons are very clear. You can go to some nations where the seasons are a bit lost – it is hot all the year round, which is nice! But I think seasons are beautiful. And you see in England now, we’re into early summer and the trees have suddenly gone green, whereas a few months ago they were just branches and there were no leaves – and you think ‘this miracle of life, changing’. Well, I think, we’re seeing now, I’m seeing young men come through, who were young men coming along and now they’re stature.

It says in Psalm 46 ‘your sons will become fathers’. And I’ve seen that – I’ve seen sons become fathers. I’ve seen guys I remember when they were starting and now I see ‘Boy, look what he’s built. Look at these men who look to him’. And so for me, this transition into multiplication is saying ‘Look all these young guys, they’re all now in a place where they need to take responsibility – fly with that’. And so we’re not trying to preserve an organisation or a movement, Terry Virgo’s movement, ‘We need for find a replacement for Terry Virgo to look after this’. No, no, no! That would kill us! We’ve got life that’s pulsating through and we need to release all these ministries into their full potential. So that’s what we’re in the process of doing – releasing guys, acknowledging them, recognising them.

Now, happily, it would seem that they all still want to keep relating as a band of brothers in what we call ‘New Frontiers’. But they will now take the responsibility. It is already happening. It’s not like ‘Terry Virgo, should we plant a church in . . . ?’ I find out afterwards! It used not to be like that, by now, I hear after it’s happened. And I hear of churches here and other people taking fresh initiatives into China, Mongolia. I mean you name it, people are going. And I don’t initiate everything anymore. People are initiating, they’re doing their own training programs, they are planning their own church planting, they’re gathering their teams, they’re invading new cities. It is long since that I initiated everything. So we’re acknowledging what is happening, and blessing it and saying run with it. So I feel more and more that I’m a bit like a grandfather, rather than a father. I want to father the fathers. I want to keep encouraging these men who are moving to new responsibility. I’d love to be an encourager. I feel God’s given me a call also to reach over the wall, outside of New Frontiers, to make more and more contacts, which I feel God promised me some years ago would happen and I feel is happening increasingly. But also, just let these guys fly! So it’s really more like a natural thing. You know like a tree – a seed falls in the ground and it grows. It’s a living thing.

Adrian: Tope, did you want to say anything more about that? Or ask anything more about that whole transition thing?

Tope: Yeah.. I want to say, you make it sound like England has four seasons. We only have three! We have winter, we have autumn, we have spring. We don’t get summer here! So don’t believe everything….

Terry: We had it last month!!

Tope: Yeah, two days last month – the Lord was gracious to us! Every Sunday I wake up and say ‘Where is the Sun?’ Oh, there it is, Praise the Lord!

People like me, who had the privilege of stumbling into Newfrontiers. I got hold of a tape and I played it in my car and I got undone. And by God’s grace I got put back. It was one of your sermons. And some of the things we had in there, we never knew how to articulate by way of church life. We were glued into this thing by God. So this is a relationship. It wasn’t just mechanically put together. Because it is a relationship, it grows. And I have never felt restricted one bit being in New Frontiers. I have felt very free to say ‘Go do whatever God has put in your heart’. I know that this is where God has put me so it’s a joy for me and we all pray and commit the future in the hands of the Lord who started the whole thing in the first place.

Adrian: Great.

Terry: I’m so pleased to have been able to get the book together – the Spirit-filled Church – lately. I’ve been asked by guys a lot, especially our friends in America saying ‘We need a book.’ So many people asking questions, people like yourself said ‘I heard a tape, what are you actually saying, please.’ I had John Lanferman who heads up what we’re doing in St. Louis ‘Please do a book,please’. He was on to me. So I’m so glad that the ‘Spirit-filled Church’ is out there now, it’s gone off to a quick start. And I hope people now say, ‘Look, this is the sort of thing you’re saying’.

Tope: You’re going the States soon are you?

Terry: September, October, November. I’m out there for three months and then into Mexico in the end.

Adrian: Thank you so much Terry, for taking more of your time than we planned. We ought to feed you really. I did say we ought to feed you first!

Tope: It turns out Terry loves Thai. So if ever Terry is in town, work out the best Thai restaurant and take him there!

Adrian: Now I would like to take you right back actually… but sort of partly on route to that, my mum said something interesting today. It was through them, because I was very young, back in around 1978 when I met you first. And she said something really interesting. She said, ‘Back then it was just a tiny handful of people’. I think you were pastoring a church in Seaford and I think Haywards Heath was the very first church you’ve travelled to, if I remember correctly. There we were, a bunch of people had been thrown out of Evangelical churches, and my mum and dad who had come into the Holy Spirit through Capel Bible Week, I think it was. She said ‘you know… how Terry was back then when it was just a tiny handful of people’ Basically Terry and his friends… because you had known everyone, and how he is today, he is no different.’ And for a lot of people who have a big international ministry over a hundred churches, a big author and all that, there’s a sort of aura about them a kind of ‘I’ve achieved something.’ You seem to be devoid of that, you seem to have a humility, I guess, about you. And I know humility is a funny thing because you’re not going say ‘Yes, actually, I am humble’ because then you’ve lost it. But I’m sure that there’s been temptations not to be humble, with all these thousands of people gathering. I think someone once said ‘You should never believe your own press’. How have you maintained that humility of the years? Are there any keys that might help other people? Because even in a small church, the pastor is sometimes the head of a pyramid – everyone’s looking to them – it’s easy to get impressed with yourself if you’re not careful, I think.

Terry: I guess your final phrase holds a key! I’m not very impressed. I’m just not. And I think I live with me. And I have battles, all sorts of battles. But I don’t honestly find that’s one of them. I am not very impressed. And I also, when I first started, I did door-to-door evangelism for two years and I was very bad at it, and it was very lonely and it was gruelling. And I felt that God used that perhaps to show me my own total inadequacy. The end of those two years which were spent on a housing estate area – I mean it was torture. A lot of it was just very very hard. To get up in the morning, pray, and I was living in the home of people who were unsaved. Even if I go home, my parents were unsaved anyway! So there was no endorsement. And you go and knock doors and actually the Mormons were in town, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, it’s like ‘No. No’. And then you go back home and pray and then get up the next day you do it again. And so it was huge battle and I was aware of great weakness.

And I think, I don’t know, I’ve never been very impressed. I would go back and think ‘That was useless, I did it terribly’. And so I know that God’s been merciful. And I think also God has joined me to remarkable people. I’ve been so blessed by God over the years that extraordinarily gifted people have come alongside and we’ve done it together. So sometimes it’s possible to think ‘Terry Virgo did.’ I don’t feel that is how it’s worked really. I’ve met brilliant people and we’ve been joined in love. And people have done things and things have grown up organically. It’s not that Terry did it all. I happened to get my name, I guess, at the centre of the it all but it’s always been teamwork. There have been people without their contribution, this wouldn’t have happened. I’ve got a wonderful wife, I’ve been blessed with wonderful kids. And I think we do it together, don’t we? I mean, you’ve been around long enough. We do it together. It’s been a relational deal. I don’t think it’s ‘He went away, learned this and presented it’. I think we’ve learned together. And I’ve always known I need people. So you’ve mentioned Nigel Ring

Adrian: It was so lovely to see you dedicating your book to him. That was so wonderful. I know Wendy you’ve dedicated many of your books to.

Terry: Yeah, you know I felt to do that. I felt quite prompted to do that. You know, I always say this ‘I wouldn’t know how to cross the street without Nigel telling me.’ He’s just marvellous. And then I’ve had another Adrian – Adrian Willard. I mean just magnificent. And God has built around me extraordinarily gifted people. So I’ve benefitted hugely from that. So we’ve been a team. And when I moved to Brighton in ’79 to get involved with what was the ‘new church’ – Church of Christ the King. And we started the Bible weeks, I said to Nigel ‘Will you come with me, please?’ And he prayed about it for about 10 minutes, and he gave up his job, he and his wife Janita, moved home and moved about 3 streets from me and he’s been right there from the beginning. And so you know you just had great, great guys who from the beginning said ‘Yeah, I’m with you’. And it couldn’t have happened without that.

Adrian: I think the longevity of some of those relationships is so crucial. I was actually.. I suppose I shouldn’t have been surprised. But I was quite surprised, at the prayer and fasting, you threw on me, with about a 2 minute notice, to talk about your book because you didn’t want to, which is understandable. And one of the things I said there, I asked people ‘I was at the first Downs Bible week, how many others were there?’ And I was expecting just a tiny smattering of hands, really, because it was a long time ago. But it was really interesting to see that there was quite a bunch of people there who’ve been there with you long term, in the broader sense, but also, like you say, some of those relationships like Nigel, it’s not always true. A lot of guys still lose people along the way because they fall out.

Terry: We have been so blessed. You are absolutely right. I go to, what you referred to, our prayer and fasting days – I remember when we first started – three times a year we gather with the Pastors to pray. I remember when it was about 20 men. Now it is about 700! It has been over 800 sometimes! And I look around the room and I think ‘Loads of people here I don’t know’. But there’s loads of people I’ve known for years and years and they’re all Christian name terms. And to be honest the wonderful privilege is I can go out to Guadalajara In Mexico and I can speak to Aturo and Heimi, I’ve been going for decades. I can go to India to Mumbai and I can speak to Samir and Jackie and I just know these friends have been with us for decades. And it’s true – we’ve got longevity, we’ve got relationship that’s right in the heart of what God has done.

Adrian: I think you once said, and it might have been at Stoneleigh, that for you, all of this, when you look out at New Frontiers and all that has been involved, has really been you and your friends trying to serve God together. Is that right? Did I remember that right?

Terry: I really feel it, and you’ve probably got a better memory than I have. I mean, we are friends together, and it would break my heart to lose a friend. So I think we’ve lost one or two on the way and it’s been painful. But to be honest, we’ve had massive loyalty and people moving together for years and years now it’s been a joy.

Tope: I’ve got to ask you. You, are moving to London, and I live in London. You are very welcome to my city! But why are you moving to London?

Terry: Well, it’s fascinating. It’s something I never anticipated happening. I was born in Brighton and when I first left secular work, I really felt God gave me promises for Brighton. Quite amazing to be honest. I can show you whole Bibles with verses underlined and things written in the margin. And I really felt God was going to do something remarkable in Brighton. And I think he has! And I think that I never anticipated the way everything would develop. I’m now based in Church of Christ the King, Brighton, which we started back in about ’79 or ’80. And it’s been wonderful to watch the progress. And we would gather with about 1200 now on a normal Sunday. We’re going into different congregations, and a new generation of elders has come through – outstanding young men. And I have the privilege of seeing my son, Joel, leading that. You couldn’t ask for more privilege – it’s just such a joy! So they’re doing brilliantly, the works prospering and to be perfectly honest, over the last, I don’t know, few years maybe, I’ve felt I’m not sure I’m doing anything apostolic here. I’m involved all over the place, and I’m away a lot. I’m visiting our churches.. I’ll be going over to America and Mexico later this year, we’re in all sorts of nations, which I love doing. But when I’m home, I’d love to be more involved in a more cutting edge way, more pioneering, bit more hands-on. And the process of different things happened.

Another son of mine, Simon, is pastoring a church in Kingston, North London. And there’s about 100 of them meeting in a hall. I became aware that they had their eye on what was a Bingo hall – a 2000 seater. And how God prompted them to believe that they could buy it and they went and offered £1.5m for it. And my heart leapt and I thought ‘Wow, they’ve really got faith for something’. And to be honest there’s a prayer battle to win that property. And to be honest, we’ve been through such things in Brighton. The first building, that was a real prayer battle. Our second building, even bigger prayer battle – believing God for nearly £4m. I’ve been through those battles. And I felt my juices start flowing ‘Yes! I’d love to be involved with that’.

I’ve been there, they’re superb people and I was praying about it all and then I’ve had a number of specific Scriptures, people bringing prophetic impressions to me, it all flows together in a way that I feel, ‘No, that is God. I really feel God’s leading me’. So we’ve put our house on the market and we would love to move to Kingston as soon as possible, and throw in our lot. And I know I’ll keep travelling and Kingston isn’t far from London Heathrow or London Gatwick so we can keep travelling. But to be honest, this weekend has been quite key to me that I’ve been feeling ‘Kingston!’ and I do feel very focussed there. But someone said to me ‘It’s great you’re moving to London’ and recently I’ve spoken in a few South London churches and people have said ‘Oh, you’re coming to London’. Hasn’t quite registered to me. I think today and over the last couple of days and our praying together and praying about London, something’s happened in my Spirit, even over this weekend. And although Kingston will be where you’re focussed, I feel God’s doing something in my heart about London. And mingling with your people at the end this morning, I just loved the people. I loved these Londoners, I love their style, I love the way they’ve been. And I just felt ‘Hey, I’m not only coming to Kingston, joining of heart with you and other guys around.’ I believe there’s something in it, which I’ve yet to see to be honest. It’s like up-to-date, I’m talking about the last 24 hours, I feel Gods done something in my spirit about ‘come on, let’s believe for this vitally important city’, and that maybe there’s something more to do there.

Tope: I remember, actually, you tweeted recently that you listened to a sermon that you preached… how long ago was that?

Terry: Thirty years ago…yah.

Tope: And the voice was different.

Terry: That’s funny, yes, my son, my youngest son said to me ‘Have you heard your voice on this recording?’ So I said ‘What’s he talking about?’ So I turned it on and it’s strange how your own voice sounds so different thirty years ago. But I was talking about Joseph and just listening to it reminds you of how when the Holy Spirit began to be poured out across the denominations in what was called the Charismatic Movement was starting in the UK and hitherto was the Pentecostal group, which was outside, suddenly people started being filled with the Spirit and it really changed my perspective. And then not only was it an individual experience, I thought ‘No, it must change church – we need new wine skin’. But that wasn’t always received with great enthusiasm. It was contentious, people withstood it, people thought ‘No, no, no… you’re threatening the gospel’ or something. And so it was born in pain, to be honest. The move of the Spirit was born in pain. And I went through a lot of difficulties.

From having enjoyed Christian fellowship, suddenly I had this experience and problems. And others were – people were asked to leave their churches. Some people left their churches and some were pushed. And I found I was leading Bible weeks, as we called them – big summer camps – two or three thousand people and it grew over the years, and I felt God spoke to me about Joseph that he was a seer of visions and a dreamer of dreams. He was a charismatic. He was also a bit obnoxious and adolescent and he didn’t know how to handle it well. And I preached to our people and said ‘Maybe we have been like that, maybe we’ve not handled it well’.

Joseph had an authentic encounter with God but he was thrown out of his family as a result and they were jealous of him. He didn’t do well. He was thrown out. And I felt God spoke to me that Joseph was like the Charismatic Movement, as it were, and people were throwing us out. And then Joseph went through trials, would he resent them but it says he was a successful man, but he was in prison, but he was successful. He didn’t live in the past, he didn’t live in the future, he made it work. Then he had temptation – Potiphars wife, and he went through all kinds of testing. But then ultimately, he didn’t stop believing in his supernatural experience. And he’s in prison and he retained his confidence in God so that when in prison he was told ‘I’ve had a dream’ he didn’t say ‘I used to have dreams, look what, it’s got me into trouble, forget it. I used to believe in that.’ He said ‘Tell me your dream’ and I thought ‘Wow! He still believes in his ability to interpret, he believes in the supernatural’. And it was actually his confidence in the supernatural, and his ability to handle it that got him out of prison. And it brought him to Pharaoh and we all know the story. He was vindicated and he had a good heart. And he said to his brothers ‘You did it for evil, but God did it for good, and God sent me ahead.’

So Joseph has seen a sovereign God bigger than his painful experiences. And I thank God that I believe in the Sovereignty of God, I thank God that I have a reformed faith. I thank God that I believe He is sovereignly over the way things work out. And I thank God I believe in the supernatural – interpreting dreams and visions. And then there came the moment that he actually began to feed the world. And I would say, probably we have found, in the last few years, that calling on us big time – helping the poor, internationally in tough areas, nationally… nearly all the churches we work with have a ‘work with the poor’ ministry. It’s interesting that when Joseph began to feed Egypt that his brothers said ‘Hey there’s food in Egypt, let’s go down’. And I felt in studying it, it came alive to me, that it was actually when Joseph was true to his vision, he cared for the world and then his brothers came and he was restored to his brothers. And his attitude was fantastic – he was full of mercy and thrilled ‘We’re in this together’. He brought them in too and so I enjoy preaching that. And I think in the early days, people saying ‘Oh, you’re saying you’ve got something we haven’t got’, whereas I actually felt ‘I’m a bit like the 4 lepers. You know the 4 lepers, they’re going to die, they’re just nothing but they stumbled on, they stumbled on riches. It’s not like they are any better, but they stumbled on riches – ‘Hey! Look what we’ve found!’ And I felt we’ve found a life in the Spirit. Doesn’t mean we were better – we just stumbled on something that if we stayed true to it, it would enrich us. God has enriched us with his presence. And I’m so glad that we’re finding renewed fellowship with people who plainly they would say ‘I’m a cessationist, I don’t believe that, but I love the word and I love the way you love the word, can we engage some more, can we talk some more?’ So I’m thrilled that that sort of thing’s happening all over the place. So we’re having fresh opportunity to fellowship with people.

Adrian: So there’s a unity, I guess, around, I suppose two things, about seeing the blessing in a sort of ‘What’s happening here, the church is growing, people are becoming Christians?’ and yet perhaps also recognition of actually, at least of the core aspects in terms of the Gospel we believe the same thing. Not everybody does at the moment. I don’t know if you are sensing that. Are you sensing that people are going ‘Hey! I’m so thrilled that you’re basically teaching the same stuff as us’?

Terry: I believe that has been a huge part of it – that people that had initially not really been persuaded that the charismatic gifts are for today and were tending to leave us out. But gradually are realizing ‘Hey, actually we believe the same as us.’ And then people like Stuart Townend writing his great ‘In Christ Alone’ and actually he’s a member of my church! And these truths, yeah, he’s learned them with us – we’ve been preaching them for years!

Adrian: He’s been there since being a teenager hasn’t he?

Terry: Oh absolutely, yeah, I remember Stuart as a teenager. I mean, if you listen to the series on Joseph, you’ll find the first talk you’ll find it’s 75% about how God, it’s all reformed, how God chose him. It’s all talking about how He chose one and not the other. How it’s God’s authority. That’s there right from the beginning.

Tope: Are these talks online?

Terry: Yes, they’re online.

Adrian: They’re on your podcast aren’t they? On your site.

Adrian: As you look out over the Church, globally, if you like, outside of New Frontiers for the moment, just looking at the whole, well outside, in the sense of encompassing it, how is your hope for the future? Do you feel the church is doing well? Do you feel it’s not doing so well? Are there things that worry you? Are there things that thrill you?

Terry: I mean I think it’s so patchy, I am encouraged by these recent developments. Very encouraged that God is leading us across the paths of very good, godly people who we love, and whose books we keep saying to our people ‘read these books, read these books’. And we love the teaching that they bring. We also have the charismatic dimension, which we can integrate. And that encourages me a lot. And that’s happening globally, coz we are involved in many, many nations. And in some places we are seeing quite rapid growth. In other places you feel ‘God there is so much to do’. And one thinks of England – morally lost, confused, you know the Bible phrase ‘Don’t know their right hand from their left’? England is spiritually in such decline. And then if you think beyond England and look across to continental Europe and the Christians there look to England as though we’re enjoying something remarkable.

Adrian: Yeah, a bit like we look at America or Africa and places like that.

Terry: Yeah, yeah, and you think ‘Wow, the need!’ In France, and Spain and Italy, it’s huge. So yeah, there is much to discourage when you think, ‘Wow, the gospel, we need a revival, we need the presence of God, we need great Biblical churches’. And so yeah, there is much that can hurt your heart. But then there is also new life! And the young! I am so thrilled about summer camp when we’ll get 7000 teenagers and they’re listening to Bible teaching and they’re worshipping and they are saying ‘Where will I go?’ and the call ‘Who is going to go to the nations?’ So just this morning, talking to one of the young girls here in this church the end saying ‘I’m going off to another nation’ and so on. Yeah, that’s in our ranks. Many young people in our ranks are saying ‘I want to go and plant a church across the nations’. So that’s very encouraging. You have to keep encouraging your own heart. And I think it comes back to what you were asking earlier – yeah, there are many things that can disappoint – you know it’s painful when people misunderstand you, so you have to encourage your own heart every day. And as George Mueller said ‘That’s my chief duty – to make sure my heart is happy in God every day’. So you mustn’t let the discouragements get to you. You need to encourage your heart every day so you can face the pressures and so you can keep going in the grace of God.

Here is the video and transcript of the second part of my recent interview with Terry Virgo.

Adrian: We’ve spoken so far about the first 300 session that was painting the big picture of what the Church should be like. I have to admit I got to the end of that session and I thought ‘What could he possibly speak on in the second?’ It was almost like you had covered everything in one hour! But I loved the way you opened the second. You just stood up and said something like this: “To have a Spirit-filled Church, you need Spirit-filled people.” Maybe lets talk a bit about that. Tope what was your take-home message from that second session?

Tope: You know… I thought the second session was extremely helpful, even if you are a Spirit-filled believer and a Spirit-filled church. If you’re a leader, you need somebody to almost help you step by step explain why it is you believe this thing that you believe. Where they are in the Scriptures, with personal experience massaged into the sermon so that you could identify, and I tell you this, to help you explain to your people… and the importance of it in your own life – that’s how this thing works. So it was very practical. It was not wishy-washy. It was based in the Scriptures – I just loved it so much.

I loved the way you started it: Spirit-filled church, you need this. Because I think sometimes we ask the wrong question first. So it was a great session. I tell you something, I said to Terry “Do you need your notes, are they in the car?” And he said “No, I’m fine.” These are not just doctrines memorised as sermons being brought out – it’s a life being lived. And so it was easy to just talk about it and we were all just enraptured by the whole thing.

Terry: I certainly love to speak about how I can see Biblically the place of the coming upon of the Spirit. And I think when Jesus said it to his follower they were from a Jewish background – they knew Old Testament characters who had known the Spirit coming up them and transforming their lives. I’m sad when people say ‘at conversion the whole thing is done’, because what about that ‘coming upon’? How come Gideon got so transformed? How come Elisha said ‘if I don’t have that power, how can I do what you did?’ That to me is such a real tangible thing. How could these scared fishermen turn the world upside down if they didn’t have the same power that rested on Jesus? So just to interpret a few New Testament verses ‘I’ve got it all’, it manifestly doesn’t work.

And I think we’ve got to see the difference between what I would call a ‘contemporary’ church and a ‘charismatic’ church. So I think some people would say ‘Oh, we’re a charismatic’. But what do you mean? ‘We have modern songs, we have guitars, we have overhead – we are charismatic’. No, no no! We are talking about people filled with the presence of God, which yes, does affect the way we worship, but we’re not simply talking about a charismatic style of meeting, we’re talking about a meeting deeply rooted in the word. And so we would preach the word for an hour and so we really go through the truth all the time. But we are also looking for the presence of God and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which we need to teach people. In the main I find Christians are shy, they’re not always pushing themselves so they need to be encouraged into engagement with the Spirit – but how do I do that? How does this gift work? We need to lovingly shepherd people into life in the Spirit and understanding that all of this comes under the Word of God. We’re not going to run away, we test all things by Scripture. But we’re gathering to the presence of God. So we anticipate He will make His presence known.

Adrian: I tell you what I love most is this whole thing of the corporate and the individual coming together. I think often those are so separate. And so I know one thing you mentioned that you would like to have had a bit longer to talk about if you had was about the prayer life – and particularly the prayer life of the leader. I know this is something that people have often asked you about and I know you sometimes don’t like to say too much. But can you just talk a little bit about what you, over the years, what personally it’s been like for you? How have you walked with God faithfully all these years? I think it was Driscoll who said about you that you still like God. When not everybody does, apparently, according to him.

Terry: I’m glad, really, that you combined reference to corporate prayer and personal prayer. I think there is a strong inter-link. And I’ve been encouraged that although the book has only been out a little while I’ve had letters from people saying ‘you’re chapter on leading a church in prayer has been so impacting’. So I’m encouraged.

I thank God I was saved from a non-Christian background but I joined a Baptist church where the pastor was a man of prayer. He was a man of the word and he was a man of prayer and he was a man for missions. Now probably we do church almost exactly different to the way he did church. So at our meetings and so on he wanted me to wear a clerical collar – I mean a very different world, but prayer – that man taught me to pray. Loving the Bible – that man taught me ‘Love the Bible, that’s the authority’. Mission – world mission. I learnt so much kind of subliminally although the outward way I’ve done it completely different. But those values – so I learnt to pray. I feel that over the years I’ve had that influence from godly men and from the early years. So it was fundamental to me right from the beginning that prayer was the key. I read a lot of missionary biographies – Hudson Taylor is a huge hero of mine. J. O. Fraser, and George Muller, the man from Bristol – I love reading stories of men who prayed and just seeing the power of it. And really, J.O. Fraser was just pragmatic – he said, like a business, ‘I’ve found a line that works so I’m going to give my best energies to it.’ I mean that’s just pragmatism – it works!

And then you read about Praying Hyde and Jim Simbala in Brooklyn and you just feel like ‘I want to pray and I want to get a church that prays’ – gather people to pray together. So it’s been a motivation for me, it would be a motivation for me to pray each morning. Tope and I had just a wonderful time this morning, just praying, I don’t know, for an hour or two just enjoying the presence of God. Just wonderful! And with a Bible there, I’ve just been nourished by some truths in the word and just began to share and ‘woah let’s pray’. And the sense of God being there – some people say ‘Oh, only two or three turned up… let me just pray for a little while’. I think ‘Two or three – it’s wonderful!’ God’s here. So to pray is just really heart and soul of everything for me.

This is the first in a multi-part series of interview clips that I filmed with Terry Virgo when he was in London with us. You will enjoy, and for those without broadband, a transcript of the video will also be shared.

Edited Transcript:

Adrian: Hi I’m Adrian Warnock and I’m here with Terry Virgo and Tope Koleoso. It’s a pleasure to have you both here. Terry, I came under your ministry back in 1978 or something ridiculous like that, and I’ve known Tope since 1995. So I’ve known you both a long time and it’s wonderful to have you both in the same room.

Terry, you’ve been with us for ‘300’ and also today at Jubilee so I thought I would just ask both of you how that came about? How do you decide what to do? You must have a lot of calls on your time, how do you prioritize things and what you felt coming amongst us, really?

Terry: Thanks Adrian, it’s great to be here. I’ve enjoyed my weekend enormously. We work relationally. Most of the time we work with people we know. I know Tope well, I know what he’s doing and I’m delighted that he’s gathering leaders. I count it always a huge privilege to speak to leaders. I’m grateful that they are willing to spend time on a busy Saturday and take out time. So it was good, thrilling to be with them. I know you’ve already been having these meetings with some excellent speakers – John Piper, Jack Hayford, so it’s a privilege to be invited. I was glad to be here. I’ve enjoyed and I felt I was able to serve. I was happy to speak about the Spirit-filled church, which I have just written a book on. So it was great to be on that theme, which I know has stirred me and I feel strongly about that.

Then it was great to be with the church today. I’ve especially enjoyed the church – terrific family, multinational, very friendly and warm. It’s hard to move away because people are so responsive. So it’s been a wonderful weekend.

Adrian: When Jack Hayford was with us he said “You look out on Jubilee, you see the world.”

Terry: Yes.

Adrian: Tope, how’s it been for you as a Pastor of this church, having Terry here?

Tope: Terry is a father to me its been good to have him amongst us. The church by God’s grace has been growing pretty well, so it is always good that new people can come and get caught up in this. Having Terry here is just wonderful, it’s a joy. It really is a joy and we get lots of time together. As people travel around so much everybody’s in their world and when you have those moments together, it’s just great. Yesterday to just have him speak…and the talk, a lot of it was hung on this question – it was like God asking “What house will you build for me?” And just the way when he started, the way it came at me, it was like actually… it was like God asking this! And our tendency as leaders is to ask “what kind of church do I want?” Wrong question! What house does HE want? And then we begin to find out what are the components that He says these things must be there. And to have that spelt out – it was just a challenge actually.

Adrian: I’ve been around a long time and I’ve heard you talk a lot. But I think I’ve never heard a vision for the Church portrayed as clearly as it was in that first session yesterday. I obviously was going “Yes, yes, yes!” and in a sense it was stuff that I’ve heard before but that is encouraging – when someone comes in you think “Well, that is kind of what we are trying to build.” At the same time it was fresh, it was compelling. And I think since we relate obviously with others from elsewhere, and that’s a good thing, sometimes you can almost begin to back-peddle about your own values and think ‘well, this is perhaps not a gospel issue’ I mean ‘These guys are doing it differently but they’re going to Heaven’ and so we almost back away. But I felt for me personally, yesterday, just a renewed sense of ‘Hey! Actually, what we do, we don’t do just because it’s the way we’ve always done it or because it’s New Frontiers – it’s Bible stuff!’ And that was where I was coming from. How did that vision come about for you?

Terry: I guess over a period of time, to be perfectly honest. I think when I was introduced to an experience of the Holy Spirit, which revolutionized my Christianity it was like knocking over the first domino. In view of that, well, then that must be reviewed, and that must be reviewed. So it took me back to the Scriptures again to investigate. I thought ‘Why do we do that then, because the Scripture says this?’ So yesterday we looked at Acts 13, at the Antioch church, which surely must be some kind of a model. And Stephen as he is preaching, comes up with that statement in his long apology and says “Solomon says, ‘What kind of house will you build for me?’” And then you find that the people associated with Stephen flee through persecution, they come to Antioch and they build a house and you get a revelation there in Acts 13 what that house was like. And so we’re asked what were the ingredients? And so we looked at those various ingredients of the prophetic, the teaching role, the involvement of Barnabas, the multinational, and the mission. There’s so many aspects just in a few verses, really.

So over the years, these values have been more and more impressed on us and we’ve started, what I would call really, a new wine skin to embrace the fresh touch of God’s presence with us, but loving the truths that we’ve always believed.

Adrian: Yes, it’s a funny thing isn’t it? Sometimes people say ‘hang on a minute, you talk about Biblical truth!’ You’ve been reformed since the 70’s, 60’s and beyond, it isn’t a new thing being a reformed Charismatic, of course it isn’t. And there’s a lot of people that would share that sort of love of the Scriptures, and yet my perception has always been that some people don’t really want to look at what the Bible says the church should be like. They just say ‘We believe the Bible, we love the Gospel, we love the doctrines’ and yet they kind of leave the church as it was, the way they inherited it. Do you think that’s a fair assessment? You’re friends with some of these guys aren’t you?

Terry: Yes, I do. I have great friends right across the body of Christ. I think that great men, in all kinds of worlds, will preach for personal obedience. And preach stunning sermons about ‘Let’s obey God’ but the application is so often just to the individual. You know… ‘are you obeying God in the workplace, in your home?’ etc. I think we also need to obey God corporately about how we do church. And I think often that application is left aside. So I feel that no, we need corporate obedience about how you do church. And so I feel that results in reformation of church. So it’s not just charismatic life – it’s what does the New Testament church look like? And I think it is very relevant to our generation that has come out of, kind of, Christendom background. We’re more like living in a day like Pauls day where people have all kinds of gods. They don’t have Christian background. So we need to be relevant, we need to be vibrant to touch our generation with the gospel and a church life that is impacting. It’s not good endorsing simply ‘Oh we’ve always done it this way.’ Because this generation is not interested in ‘how you always did it’. They need to hear a gospel that is relevant to them today in a setting that they can identify with and the presence of God is fundamental to that.

Here is the video, downloads and my notes from Terry Virgo’s second session at this month’s 300 Leaders event:

Downloads: mp3, video

In his first session, Terry spoke about the Spirit-filled church. This requires Spirit-filled people. We need to help people come into understanding, so they will be clear. Terry will almost always explain the Bible to people before praying for them to receive.

Acts 1:4.

V8 is called the key to understanding the book of Acts. The disciples had fallen short in terms of understanding, and loyalty, having run away. How did this group turn the world upside down? “You shall receive power” was the key.

The idea of the Spirit coming upon people was not new to them. They knew about Gideon hiding in his cave, and God coming to him and clothing him with power. Samuel poured oil on David and the Spirit came on him. Samson was a normal guy empowered by the Spirit. They asked him, where do you get your power? You don’t ask Arnie where he gets his power because of his muscles. But for Samson it wasn’t muscles, it was other than him. It was a mystery. Elisha is desperate to have the same Spirit that Elijah has. Joshua is given of the same Spirit from Moses. It happened throughout the history. Jesus was himself clothed with power at age 30. He moved with the power of the Spirit.

Many modern day Christians are unclear about how they fit with that. Can we anticipate the power coming on us? Many of us feel so powerless.

Many tell us we receive the Spirit at conversion. Others would say there is another experience. Terry saw years ago that Stott and Lloyd-Jones disagreed on this and thought, how can I understand this? But he found himself getting more and more thirsty. So he found a Pentecostal and asked for prayer.

The Bible tells us that the men who had been with Jesus for three years needed to be empowered. Some say but they were unique. But after them, we also see what happens to others in Acts. Some say but you don’t get doctrine from narrative. But the Bible tells us that ALL Scripture is profitable for instruction. The gospels are looking forward to Jesus baptising with the Spirit. The epistles look back and take for granted that they had been baptised both with water and the Spirit. We need the book of Acts to tell us what happened.

In Acts 8 we are told that the people believe and were baptised in response to Philip. They are converted. Peter and John came from Jerusalem and it was only then that the Holy Spirit fell on them. Their testimony would be “I was saved when Phillip preached, sometime later the Apostles came and laid hands on me then the Spirit came.”

In Acts 9 Saul was converted on the Damascus road, and was called a brother by Ananias, but it was through Ananias that he received the Spirit. Paul would have said, “I was saved then three days later I was filled with the Spirit.”

In Acts 10 faith arises in the hearts of gentiles at the house of Cornelius as they hear the gospel, and the Spirit fell on them.

In Acts 19 Paul asks “did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” Then they believe, get baptised, then he lays hands on them and the Spirit fell on them.

In all of these verses we see a second step, though it can happen on the same day. Many say when you become a Christian you have automatically received. But in Acts this is not the case. With that teaching tends to come an idea that we will gradually grow into being filled with the Spirit. Most people don’t claim to be full of the Spirit. But the Bible says “Have you received?” They would have said after being laid hands on “Yeh!” No idea of a gradual growth. Lloyd-Jones used to challenge people “where is it all?”

There is also a teaching that says years later, when you empty out God fills up. There is an idea of maturity, surrender to God. But that is not really what the Bible says about being filled with the Spirit. You don’t have to be mature first! It is like a general saying “go out and fight, and if you do really well next time we will give you a gun!” No, Jesus says get filled before you go out. Also the Pentecostal concept used to say that you had to “tarry.” People sometimes would say I have gone to tarrying meetings for years and just be waiting in meetings to speak in tongues. But that is not what the Scripture says. After Pentecost no one was ever told to do that! Peter and John didn’t tell the Samaritans to wait, they laid hands on him and they received.

John Wimber taught the release of the Spirt, saying you received it at conversion and later it is released in you. It is not spoken about in the Bible. They didn’t say “you obviously have everything, now wait and you will be released.” It is not release from within, it is falling upon!

The key verse is in John 7:37. It gives us the key about not having to tarry, and what our expectation should be. Jesus cries out “if anyone is thirsty let him come to me and drink.” It doesn’t say the Spirit was not yet given because they were not yet holy enough. Rather because Jesus was not glorified yet. Peter basically exposits this verse on the day of Pentecost. He declares that the Jesus who died, rose again and was glorified has now poured out the Spirit. The Spirit is freely given. We can receive the Spirit. If someone says to you “I don’t think I am worthy” “No you are not! You will never be!” It is a free gift.

Laying on of hands is Biblical, but not in every case. Not necessary. The promise is to you! Come and drink! Come and receive! Give people expectation. We receive the Spirit through hearing with faith. The first thing is “if anyone is thirsty” That is the only pre-requisite. It is possible to get complacent about it. God will sometimes break your heart and you will say “I can’t bear this any more!” It doesn’t say if anyone is curious let him come. It says if you are thirsty, COME to me. Not come to a man. It is biblical to lay on hands, but don’t look to the man who is praying for you, look to Jesus! We come to Him and drink! Rivers of living water comes from within.

Speaking in tongues is frequently associated with receiving the Spirit. We cannot say more than that. When Terry lays hands on people he expects people usually to speak in tongues. Sometimes people don’t receive tongues because a million voices in their head tell them they are making it up. But there is a relaxing and allowing the Spirit to fall on us that is needed. There is a transformation that comes when the Spirit is on us. A boldness to witness.

We must teach people and give them understanding. We must explain that God doesn’t speak in tongues, it is something we do. If you dont speak in tongues you wont speak in tongues. We take the initiative in faith. It is like the widow who is told to gather her vessels. She doesn’t pray over them saying “come oil” she pours the vessel and the oil comes. Peter is told to come. He doesn’t sit waiting, he gets up and walks. It was only as he stepped off the boat that he entered another dimension. Your mind is unfruitful when you speak in tongues. Dont try and analyse it. Wesley said “O for a Thousand tongues to sing” Your spirit is praying. Paul said he thanked God he spoke in tongues more than anyone.

Don’t just explain it. Preach to them so their faith is rising.

Come and drink. The promise is to you. It is free. We are not merely aiming to build a contemporary church. We are aiming to build churches where the Holy Spirit is there in power. We are aiming to build Spirit-filled churches. There is an ongoing filling. Acts 4 the apostles are filled again. In Ephesians 5 we are told to be being filled with the Spirit. Enjoy the presence of the Spirit. Be a Spirit-filled community. We come together to be filled again and again. Jesus promised us he would not leave us as orphans. He is with us. On the day of Pentecost Peter could have shouted out “he is back!”

This is the second part of a set of notes on Terry Virgo’s first session at 300 Leaders.  I have previously shared the video and downloads for the whole talk.

3. There was Barnabus. He had been sent. The Apostles were staying in Jerusalem. People have written about whether that was right or wrong. But they heard about another church coming to birth. Barnabas was sent as an apostolic delegate. He was known by the Apostles, and he represented them. It was rather like Timothy later on. Receive him, like you would receive me.

So this church is touched by apostolic ministry. It is in touch with apostolic revelation and gifting. There is a big debate about whether apostles continue today. Some say there were 12. There were several catagories: Hebrews 3 speaks of Jesus the Apostle. He was the one and only. He was sent with authority which is the root of the meaning. In John’s gospel Jesus keeps saying he was sent. Then there are the 12 who Jesus chose. They are unique. A band of apostles that the church is built on. But there are other apostles. Paul, James, Barnabus, (Acts 14:14 doesnt distinguish between Barnabus and Saul). In Acts 13 they were prophets and teachers, now they are apostles. They were sent by God. Some have argued that Paul should have been one of the 12 but Paul doesn’t say that.

Ephesians 4 says Jesus ascended and gave. From heaven. Barnabus gets called. We don’t know for sure that Barnabus ever saw Jesus after the resurrection. Apostles don’t just write epistles so we don’t need them any more. Only a handful of them wrote Scriptures. Some who weren’t apostles wrote Scripture eg Luke. Apostles were not Bible writers only.

There is a job that apostles do. It is to do with foundations. Paul is a wise master builder (architect). He laid a foundation in a local church. It is not just that philosophically we are all built on a foundation. Rather, each local church has a time when that foundation was laid. The universal church was built on the foundation of the initial apostles. The local church is also built on the foundation laid by the apostles. Sometimes a church came to birth like this one in Antioch, getting before the apostles. The apostles then quickly send either an apostle or a delegate of an apostle to make sure the church is being built correctly.

We are looking for a rainbow of ministries as seen in Ephesians 4. Lloyd-Jones believed that only Pastors and Teachers continued and that evangelists had ceased. Some people will allow for evangelists to continue, or perhaps prophets. Some will refer to people who have died as an apostle or a prophet. I believe God has given a blueprint for the church, why should we reinvent another one. We have tried democracy, we have tried ecclesiastical heirachy, why not use the Bible model we see in Ephesians 4?

4. The list of names continues. Barnabaus was a Cypriot, Simeon was a black African, Lucius is also black, Manian was brought up with Herod. He was raised with the kings son. Like he went to school with Harry or William! He mingled with some pretty high people. And Saul who is a Hebrew of Hebrews. A pretty mixed leadership team. What a strange group. What is this? It is the Antioch church getting away from Jerusalem into a gentile world and saying “What kind of house will you build?”

It is a house that is so different than what had come before. There is continuity: we are Abraham’s children. We feel a sense of unity. But we are something fresh and new. God is creating one new man out of Jew and gentile. It is energised by the Holy Sprit. Very different in education, social background. What gives them unity? It is because they are first called Christians there. What do they have in common? It is Jesus. Not just a definition of doctrine, or an agreement of creeds.

When Peter goes to Cornelius and the pagan Roman starts to speak in tongues, the fire had lept across the chasm. It is only that experience of the Spirit that joined them together. The unity of the Spirit is not just a catchphrase. He has got the same as us. The Spirit-filled church is a phenomenon. It is different to what was before. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. We are allowed to eat Pork and still get to heaven! The restrictions are lifted. There is liberty. We are in Israel’s messiah. We are one. Jesus let women listen to his teaching which was outrageous. Neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free. The early church would have had many slaves in it. Paul tells his friend to receive his runaway slave back as his brother. The twelve were all Jews, but he had a zealot who’s goal was to kill Romans, and a tax collector who collaborated with them to raise money. They sold their souls and were hated. What did they have in common? Only that they loved Jesus. He is the cornerstone where we find one another. The church is a phenomenal manifestation to the world of the way to break through racial hatred, sexual discrimination, social class war.

5. They were worshipping the Lord. Leaders together. Elders come together with a long agenda. Here is a leadership that said “lets worship.” God does stuff. They are ministering to the Lord. Bathed in worship. Not a business meeting. We are besotted with God. Lets raise churches that are besotted with God. We must model prayer and worship as leadership teams to our churches.

6. The Spirit said set apart. A house which is pre-occupied with world mission. A house that doesn’t think it strange that two of its key leaders go off to do something else. It is a global commission. Jesus said go and make disciples. The disciples went and planted churches. That is how people are discipled. A church is a group of disciples. We are called to world mission. Sometimes leaders will go and start again. Church is not a static thing. We are joined in mission. It is not that someone in our ranks goes to a mission society. The Bible doesn’t say they went and set up mission centres. They went to plant churches. Roland Allen urged us to found churches. His book was a radical call that came out more than a hundred years ago. We need churches that are in partnership with each other. Churches that extend God’s mission together. Fellowship is not a religious word, it is partnership in a shared purpose and action.

What kind of house will you build for him? The church at Antioch is a wonderful model. Came away from the Jerusalem base to start over again. Prophets were there, but tested by the Word, Apostolic involvement, great diversity. God’s church is a breathtaking phenomenon. They were worshippers, they fasted and prayed. They were involved in world mission. They saw the church as God’s agent in making Jesus famous throughout the world.

We do not want to just talk about the Spirit-filled church, we cry to God to multiply many of them.