For me, once I have prioritized my own personal inner life and relationship with God, then my dear family, a clear third place in my affections is given without a moment's doubt to my local church. Family does come before the church, but of course our church is like an extension of my family and we all love being a part of it. It is hard to believe that it was as long ago as 1995 that we first joined our current church.

This past year has been another amazing one for all of us at Jubilee London. Serving as part of the core team and a regular preacher in this vibrant, multicultural, growing church is one of the biggest privileges of my life. It is no wonder that so many of our leaders and people are saying things like, "I have no intention of leaving." I know, for us as a family, we currently believe that we will be here for at least twenty more years, and are thrilled at the prospect. Why would we want to go anywhere else?

Who could forget our international giving day or the day we turned our main service into church in the park, or for that matter, the day the whole church got an invitation to a wedding? (Sadly I missed both the last two of these events, with the latter happening while George was being born.) The memorable events went on—Alpha, new small groups, clusters of small groups meeting together, men's and women's days, and of course, lots of different kinds of food from all over the world. People becoming Christians, getting healed, and yes, a couple of them dying very well, still full of faith in the Jesus that has now welcomed them into heaven. These wonderful memories will go on and on, but they just keep growing as more keep getting added!

Over the course of the last year we were also thrilled to have a number of well-known preachers visit us. I am humbled that I am still asked to share God's Word with the congregation. I preached ten times this past year, and all the audio and notes are available on the pages of this blog as follows:

• How to Define Revival and be Revived Personally


• Reviving Prayer (1 Kings 17:1 to 2 Kings 2:14)


• The Reviving Power of God's Word (Psalm 119)


• Resurrection Hope—An Easter Sermon (1 Corinthians 15)


• Missional Bible Study (Psalm 119)


• Abraham—The First Missional Believer


• Jacob—The Missional Rebel


• Alive Together With Christ (Ephesians 2:1-10)


• The Christian's Warfare (Ephesians 6)


• The Risen Jesus (Revelation 1)

Many of you will never get to visit our church, although, of course, we would be happy to welcome any of you! But you can visit with us by listening to our messages available as a podcast or at Jubilee Church's website.

Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus on How To Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we've never said, "We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!"—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same"—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and "cross pollinate." It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

In this, the final segment of my interview with Greg Haslam, Greg discusses being reformed and charismatic, Terry Virgo's spiritual influence on the church in the UK, and the role of the organization Terry heads up, Newfrontiers.

If you missed any of the other four parts of this interview, you can read them here:

1. Greg Haslam on Filling Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Pulpit
   
   
2. Greg Haslam on Leaving Newfrontiers for Westminster Chapel
   
   
3. Greg Haslam on the Primacy of Preaching
   
   
4. Greg Haslam on Unity Versus Doctrinal Integrity

Adrian
You combine an interest in the charismatic and reformed doctrine. I know that many of my US readers still find that combination hard to comprehend. Do you find that people look at you strangely sometimes from both sides, or do you feel that, in the UK at least, the wider Church understands it nowadays?

Greg
I sense that this combination of “Word and Spirit” is no longer the issue it was for many. The heat and dust seems to have settled on the controversies of the 1960's to 1990's, and many have gone back to the Bible, seen good practice in many churches, and agreed, “You were right!” As I said previously, I am convinced many more will come to the same conclusion and we shall reach “unity in the faith” on this matter. People still look at me strangely, but probably for other reasons I need to do something about!

Adrian
It seems to me that Newfrontiers, and Terry Virgo in particular, seem to be a growing force in the UK church scene that seems to, in part, change the perception most people have of the charismatic. So, unlike in the US, if one says the word “charismatic,” people increasingly think of a Newfrontiers church they know. Do you think that is a valid perception?

Greg
Terry Virgo is one of the most important Christian leaders God has raised up in the last thirty years. No wonder amazing doors continue to open for him and his message to the Church! He is wise, humble, full of grace, and a man of astonishing faithfulness and vision. Significantly, he is an outstanding prophetic voice and a remarkable Bible teacher. He combines Word and Spirit in striking ways, teaching truth in depth and seeing miracles accompany it, and he has influenced thousands of people around the world to model the same authentic Christianity we read of in the book of Acts. We're told by Christ to judge teachers “by their fruits” (Matthew 7). I've seen what Terry and his associates have built first-hand. I have been part of it. It is very impressive. It is not marked by the boasting, hype, self-serving, and exploitation that other leaders and movements have floundered on. When I say “Charismatic” he and his movement is what I most think of. It's biblical and dynamic in equal measure. Why divorce what God always meant to be together?

Adrian
As someone with a slightly more detached status these days, how do you see Newfrontiers, or for that matter other similar groups developing in the future?

Greg
I see them interfacing, interlacing, and having an increasingly beneficial influence upon one another, thus fostering greater unity in the wider body of Christ. If that doesn't happen, we might rightly ask, “What was that all about then?”

Adrian
One question no one seems to ask is what will Newfrontiers look like after Terry Virgo—not that he seems likely to go anywhere for some time to come! The Vineyard Movement seemed to struggle a little after the death of John Wimber. Do you think Newfrontiers will have a similar struggle in years to come?

Greg
Possibly. Under God, Terry has been the “father” of the movement in every respect. I don't know if an evident successor has emerged as yet. But Terry has never sought to hold things to himself. He has raised up like-minded leaders of stature. He has released them to “do their stuff” all over the world. He is not possessive. He believes in Church unity. He is a blessing to many outside Newfrontiers. Young leaders are emerging everywhere you look and church plants and adoptions increase by the week, with many Ephesians 4 ministries being released to serve them. I don't see this movement collapsing should Terry retire or be taken home. He has built too well. Only demonic attack, heresy, or some kind of character failure on the part of his followers could jeopardize all he has built, but many safeguards are in place to help prevent this.

Adrian
What do you think the wider Church will look like thirty years from now? Will existing denominations and groups of churches be intact? Will there still be the same arguments that divide us now?

Greg
I am pretty sure that intellectual, religious, social, and political persecution is emerging in our nation right now and will increase in the future. Arrests, imprisonment, and even martyrdoms could occur. Some loose unaffiliated churches and failed denominations will likely go to the wall. As the darkness deepens, it means that there is every possibility the light will become brighter. Christians will find each other, and find Christ more powerful among them, and then will find the courage to do and say the right things in spite of the pressure to panic or compromise. We can, and shall, make great progress in the conversion of dangerous false religionists, and among many who will be disillusioned with the failure of governments and other faiths to “give the goods.” Evolutionism, secularism, atheism, and religious syncretism will all be exposed for their lies. Truth will prevail and error cannot hold out forever.

Adrian
Well, Greg, it has been a pleasure to have you here. But before you go, do you have anything else you would like to say to my readers?

Greg
“Be who you is, ‘cos if you ain’t who you is, you is who you ain’t!”

Adrian
Thanks so much for joining us!

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Today we continue with the fourth part of my interview with Greg Haslam, pastor of Westminster Chapel in London (pictured here with his wife, Ruth). The previous three parts of this interview included an introduction to Greg and his ministry, on leaving Newfrontiers for Westminster Chapel, and Haslam on the primacy of preaching.

Adrian
Yesterday we spoke of the remarkable advance for church unity that your preaching conference represented. Despite the unity displayed in your conference and book, there were surely doctrinal differences that divided your collection of speakers, and even more issues that separate the rest of the Church. You obviously decided that you could work with a wide range of people. How do you weigh different issues on which you disagree, and decide which differences are important enough that you would not want to share a platform with someone?

Greg
Having a big heart for the unity God is looking for helps greatly (see John 17 and Ephesians 4:1-16). I suppose that order distinctions are helpful here: first-order truths and second-order truths. We cannot compromise the former, and we can learn to live with the latter. The first category includes the reality of an infinite-personal God, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the Holy Spirit, as well as the doctrines of salvation, atonement, regeneration, adoption, justification, sanctification, and glorification. The latter includes denominational differences, ecclesiology, styles of worship, church order, and eschatology. Meldenius' advice is good: “In all things essential, unity. In all things non-essential, liberty. In all things, charity.”

Adrian
What issues are facing the Church today where you feel you have to say you cannot work closely with someone who thinks differently to you?

Greg
Some of the things that most concern me are the ever present realities and influence of liberal theology and the attractions of Roman Catholicism in its worst forms. Recent controversies over penal substitution and the atonement are due to a rehash of 19th century liberalism as if this battle had never been fought before. I can be cordial with such people and make bridges so that the Gospel can be heard, but I wouldn't like to pretend or give the impression that our differences are minor, for they are not. I'm also alarmed by our frequent willingness to bed down with “the spirit of the age” and ignore the fact that this is the “Age of the Spirit.” We are never more relevant than when we obey the Holy Spirit's leadings and declare the Bible in all of its raw power.

Adrian
How should the Christian approach people who take these views?

Greg
In humility that we were once deceived about the truth ourselves, and charity that has a care and compassion for those who are presently misled. We needn't be humble or apologetic about the truth itself, though, nor muted in voicing what we really think. It is nasty and negative polemics we should avoid. But we should be very clear about where we stand on controversial issues.

Adrian
Given the doctrinal disputes and the press coverage about shrinking church attendance, are you depressed about the future of the Church in the UK?

Greg
No, I am not depressed about the future of the Church anywhere. Christ wins! The Church will still be here when everything else has gone. The best days of Church history lie ahead of us. Worldwide revivals will sweep the continents. Many have already happened or begun. This is the “Age of the Spirit,” and “The Holy Spirit will never allow the blasphemy to be voiced against his name that he was unable to convert the world!” (C. H. Spurgeon). I am at heart a great optimist where the Gospel and the work of God is concerned. Setbacks are never permanent, only temporary. Britain is in a state of apostasy at this time, and culpable for her rejection of history, the Bible, and the honor of Christ, and for her contempt for Christ's people. But this is no problem for God to remove and reverse. It's what I'm praying, preaching, and working for. “Of the increase of Christ's government and peace, there shall be no end” (Isaiah 9).

Adrian
I am glad to hear it! What are your hopes and dreams for the UK church in the next decade or so?

Greg
I long for several key things:

1. A recovery of the Gospel.
   
   
2. A renewed faith in the inspiration and authority of Scripture.
   
   
3. An increase in the honor of the Holy Spirit and his work to glorify Christ.
   
   
4. An increase in the number of healthy churches and church plants everywhere.
   
   
5. A respect and reception of Ephesians 4 ministries, increasing unity in the true Body of Christ.
   
   
6. Massive missional emphasis in the churches.
   
   
7. Genuine Holy Spirit reformation, renewal, restoration, and revival in the lives of the people of God . . . all fired by an “eschatology of victory,” not an “eschatology of escapology” which the Left Behind series of novels seems to have generated!

Continued in part five, "Greg Haslam on Being Reformed and Charismatic"

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Today I continue the interview with Greg Haslam which began yesterday in a post entitled “Greg Haslam on Filling Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Pulpit.”

Adrian
Yesterday you mentioned your previous church, which is a part of Newfrontiers. You still speak at Newfrontiers conferences, but your current church isn’t listed as a member. What exactly is your relationship with Newfrontiers, both personally and as a church?

Greg
Westminster Chapel has been a fairly unique and decidedly independent kind of place, with a significant influence on the wider church, primarily through the preaching and books of its ministers. It's probably time that this independence became inter-dependence on other streams and ministries. This is on my heart to achieve in the years ahead. These connections are likely to be varied since I've always been keen on unity in the church, and want to live out that conviction. This will mean friendships with all kinds of leaders and people, and openness to receive a wide diversity of ministry from outside as God leads.

Newfrontiers was always primarily about relationships rather than “names on a list” or being part of an organization. My relationships continue whenever time and opportunity permit. I value my dear friends in Newfrontiers, and still attend their Theology Forum, teach some of their leadership training courses, take part in the Brighton Leaders Conference, and preach at Newfrontiers churches whenever I can. The warmth of old friends is always incredible whenever I meet them!

I can't tell you how much I miss Newfrontiers! I relish any contact I have with Terry Virgo and other apostolic and prophetic guys. The Chapel hosts a monthly Newfrontiers London pastors’ gathering, which I attend whenever I can. The Chapel views Newfrontiers very positively indeed now, and we've had many of their leaders preach here. Yet I remain officially outside of that movement, in line with all God told me to do five years ago. This has led to many new and wonderful friendships with top leaders and great movements around the country, as well as opportunities to serve the wider body through church visits and ministry of the Word at major denominational and church-stream conferences. I am convinced that the wider body of Christ, including many evangelicals who ignored or allowed previous moves of the Holy Spirit to bypass them from the 1960's onwards, are going to be caught up in a new visitation of God—soon! I speak to this matter whenever I can, and I have just written two new books to help foster new openness to God in whatever way I can, and to help leaders to make sense of what God is going to do—A Radical Encounter with God (New Wine Press, October 2007) and Moving in the Prophetic (Monarch Publications, April 2008).

Continued in part three, "Greg Haslam On The Primacy of Preaching."

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

My buddy, Mark Moore, has asked us to pray for a friend of his who is a pastor facing persecution in India. See Mark's blog for the full story:

“One of our international pastors in Acts 29, Pastor Sudhakar in India, is facing tremendous persecution, having been drug out of his church on a Sunday morning and beaten by twenty men. He is now standing trial for "converting Hindus to Christianity."

In news that will shake the blogosphere, Justin Taylor has not only shown that he is with Sam Storms on these issues, he has exclusively revealed that Lig Duncan was not baptized as an infant! Anyone questioning his commitment to the Presbyterian cause would no doubt be told "It wasn't my fault my parents didn't baptize me!" which perhaps to a credobaptist is precisely the point! Anyway here is what Justin said:

Trusted sources tell Between Two Worlds that Ligon Duncan was not baptized as an infant, but was baptized as a believer! This certainly adds a wrinkle to the discussion, doesn't it? So shouldn't Dever accept Duncan both into membership and at the Lord's Table? Inquiring minds want to know!

I'm not sure why anyone would care what my position is, but I agree with old Piper, new Grudem, and unchanging Storms. I agree with Dever about membership and disagree with him regarding the Lord's Supper. And I think we'd all get along if we just followed the happy middlemen, Ted Christman and Vern Poythress!

The last four words of the above title are not new to me, but they are certainly resonating with me at the moment — "I Want It All!" Why should I have to choose, for example, between being enthusiastic about theology and being charismatic?

I know what some of you are thinking as you've been reading my posts on the Together On a Mission conference. You're wondering why it is that someone who is so enthusiastic about what was obviously a very charismatic conference can also be deeply committed to defending and understanding biblical doctrine. I know it's hard for some of you to believe, but it really is the same me who wrote all those posts on the atonement who also was so deeply touched by this latest conference. For those of you who have never met one, I am indeed that rare breed — a Reformed Charismatic.

Too often, however, the temptation for me is to downplay one side of that equation or the other in order to appear "balanced." When I am with the charismatics, my reformed doctrine often appears alien to them, although in the UK, Newfrontiers offers a major exception to that with over 200 churches that are broadly reformed and charismatic. When I'm with the reformed, I'm tempted to soften my charismatic viewpoint and not speak too much of the things I have seen and experienced. Why is it that on this issue, as on so many others, the Church seems to be split in half? Why can't we be both radically reformed and radically charismatic? Why do we see a conflict and therefore try to play down both in order to be "balanced?" I don't want to be balanced, I want it all!

On the one hand there are those who care about theology enough to study God's Word in detail, weigh scripture against scripture, study great theological minds, and preach intellectually stimulating messages that would stretch even a PhD in Theology — which, incidentally, I am certainly not! Why is it that for the majority of us, if we want such a feast for our minds, we must sacrifice certain other things? Why are some leaders in the Church committed to theology almost exclusively? Is even great theology so captivating that it is the only need of the Church? I don't believe it can be, or God would have given us a Bible that was a systematic theology and not the one we have, which is essentially a collection of lots of stories with a few doctrinal portions.

Also, why is it that those who are most committed to following the Bible in everything also seem most committed to relegating a book like Acts to mere descriptive stories to tell our children? It's not even just the book of Acts; there are swathes of the New Testament that in some theologies become almost entirely irrelevant to us. That was for then, we are told. When I read passages like those found in the book of Acts, I find myself yearning for something more than I am experiencing currently, yearning for a dynamic sense of the supernatural presence of God, longing for God himself to surprise and astonish me by his dynamic actions. Why is it that so often I am left with the impression that we are being encouraged to merely learn about God rather than get to know him? Would I be satisfied if I had read hundreds of e-mails from my wife, but had never actually met her or seen her do anything?

On the other hand, I could find many so-called men of faith who have stories to tell of miraculous healings or of prophecies that have had a life-changing impact. Listening to them, especially if I suspend my natural British cynicism and reserve, I hear tales of powerful encounters with God. Sadly, however, theological truths don't seem to be emphasized at all by most of those committed to experiencing the supernatural presence of God. It is often even implied that it is all right for people to make glaring errors in their teaching or show little interest in what the Bible actually says.

Why is it that so many men who seem on first appearances to have such intimacy with God, such access to his power, such supernatural giftings, and such powerful prophecies, also have much less interest in the words that the Person they often describe as their best friend, the Holy Spirit, wrote 2000 years ago? Why is it that when listening to some of these men, the greatest miracle is no longer what happens in someone's life when they are saved, but rather the latest supernatural healing or encounter with God? Why do we put up with so much flakiness and even blatant deception from figures claiming to have an anointing of the Spirit? How has it got to the point that even hearing the word "faith" seems to raise antibodies in me and make me feel uncomfortable? Why, though, do I feel in honest moments that some of those people with whose theology I most disagree seem to have something that I haven't got, and that I want? Is it so wrong to want to learn more about faith and experience the supernatural acts of God without becoming flaky or doctrinally suspect? Is it not possible for me to both want and get it all?

This desire to "want it all" and have it all in extreme form rather than just a little of everything so as to become "balanced" is not confined to the issue of the truth of God's Word and the experience of the supernatural. There are so many other stalls in the modern marketplace that is the global Church of Jesus. I can see them all before me selling their wares, each of them sure they have the answer to the ills of the Church. How do I choose which one to follow? Can't I have it all? Can't I learn from each of them? Must I choose only one? Where is the person who will overturn all these market stalls and say, “You need a bit of everything — no, change that — you need A LOT of everything — you need it all!”

Let's consider those in the Church who understand the reason we are here on earth. They understand that we are here to enjoy God and bring glory to him by evangelizing the world and producing more worshippers. These guys have such enthusiasm that it is inspiring. Many are also so creative. They split into different tribes, however, sitting as it were at different stalls in the marketplace. There are those who believe in old-style tent crusades, those who want to fill stadiums again, those who knock on doors, those who tell strangers they are sinners, those who befriend sinners in order to evangelize them, those who run seeker sensitive services, those who speak of being missional and incarnating the Gospel, those who run Alpha, and those who preach a certain kind of evangelical "gospel" message every Sunday morning that has to include penal substitution. The different brands may disagree about the methods, but yet they all thrill me with their determination and commitment to see more people becoming Christians. Isn't there room for us to use some methods from almost all of these brands of evangelism?

What troubles me most about so many of these devoted evangelists and missionaries is that so few of them are also deeply devoted to and thrilled with the Church. Why does there seem to be a dichotomy between being "out there" reaching the world and building the community of God such that we love each other so much the world knows we are Jesus' disciples? Also, why does the message of the evangelist sometimes ring hollow in my ears and fail to inspire me like it should? Is there something wrong with me? Dare I even admit that there have been times in the past when I have felt I don't want to hear another "simple Gospel presentation" ever again? Why do the sermons I read in Acts sound so different to the vast majority of evangelistic messages I have ever heard? For that matter, if the Gospel is a handful of reductionistic propositions that we must preach on every occasion, and those few ideas are all that matters, why does so much of the Bible even exist? Much as I believe in penal substitution, it is not to be found in every verse of the Bible. Why are some evangelicals frightened to preach the whole counsel of God? Is it wrong to want to preach the message of the whole Bible?

Why is it, for that matter, that so many of us feel we lack practical wisdom of how to live our lives? I know I have felt like this many times in my life. How can it be that I can work through the Gospel from A to Z, listen to theologically-sound sermons, read the Bible, pray even, and do all the "right" things they tell me to, but somehow not know how to live? Why is it that the breed of practical living teachers are so rare in the Church that many feel they have to learn by watching programs like Nanny 911 because no Christian leader ever taught them how to raise their children? Why are there so few places in the Church to send someone who is struggling with a breaking marriage or with mounting debt? Why, when we find someone in the Church who is valiantly teaching us practical living tips that we should have learned from our parents do they so often sound no different to someone in the world? Where is the teaching that is biblically rooted, yet shows me how to run my life in the 21st century? Isn't the Bible supposed to teach me how to have a good marriage, hold down a job, be a parent, have friends? It's easy to condemn those preaching "self help" in the name of Jesus, but where are those teaching me how God wants to help me live wisely?

Again, why is it that as churches we are not all stirred to activism to help the poor? Adopting a village in Africa, helping HIV victims, befriending single mothers, housing drug addicts — the list goes on and on. Christians who really care, frankly, put me to shame. Why do I so shamefully neglect this? I know that I do give some money that is channeled to such projects by my church, but why do I feel I should be doing much more? Surely we should be demonstrating God's kingdom on earth for the world to see. And yet, why do some of the people who give themselves to this kind of work which is meant to demonstrate God's kingdom seem more like social workers than Christ's ambassadors? Why do we seem to allow the Gospel to be squeezed out of our attempts to help the poor?

I can go on — what of the worshippers? There are many people who love God, feel his presence, and "waste time" with him. Why do I find it so hard to squeeze contemplation into my busy life? Why should worship become an option that excludes other options? Why is meditation considered to be something for Buddhists when the Bible invented it? What about prayer — shouldn't it be more than merely reciting a shopping list of requests to some heavenly slot machine? Shouldn't it be something other than worrying out loud?

And what about a sense of belonging? Of a Church that loves each other and builds a community in this loveless world? Why are there some small churches that really are a family, and yet find it hard to grow? How can large churches retain the feeling that people are there for me and know me? How can we avoid merely having hundreds of superficial acquaintances and yet still feeling totally alone? How can we learn how to do things well for God without becoming just a commercial entity led only by the world's management techniques?

I guess this all leads to a feeling that there is something wrong with the Church. I suspect many of us feel that way as Christians. But what is it that is wrong? Is it, as some would say, "Well, the danger is an overemphasis on feelings, so here we preach the truth of the Bible — that is what we need most." That sounds so good until you hear someone else say something like, "What the Church really needs to do is to learn to care more — we have to love each other and then learn to love the world — that's the problem with the Church," or someone else says, "Your problem is that you know the Bible, but you don't know God — you people just have a form of godliness, but deny its power."

I don't just want balance, however, and certainly not if it means we end up missing EVERYTHING. I thank God that there are those who are attempting to be balanced and have a bit of all of these things. Yet, I am concerned that in an anxiety to be balanced, we end up being mediocre at all of these things. I suppose as individuals we will always be better at some of them than others, but as a healthy local church can't we have it all?

Social action needn't be the enemy of building a nice community, nor should singing be a chore to get through until the preaching starts. Do we really have to wince every time someone begins to prophesy for fear of what our visitors may think? We shouldn't have to be anxious, when preaching, that our people are being bored or that we are offending visitors. These things are not enemies of each other.

Why shouldn't we have churches that are every bit as concerned about doctrinal accuracy and knowledge as John MacArthur, that love relational intimacy with Jesus as much as John Arnott, see miraculous healings that are every bit as dynamic as the ones the tele-evangelists claim to have seen, are as full of vision and purpose as Rick Warren, as skilled in leadership as Bill Hybels, as humble and committed to spiritual maturity as C. J. Mahaney, as relevant to practical life as the author of any self-help book you can think of, that impact social needs in the model of Shaftsbury, tackle political issues like Wilberforce, preach with both the passion for souls of Spurgeon and the passion for God's glory of John Piper, that hear from God as clearly as any modern prophet, are as aggressively missional as Mark Driscoll, have the apostolic drive of Terry Virgo, and yet somehow still feel as comforting as my wife's homemade apple crumble with custard?

Am I being greedy to say "I want it all, and I wish I could become an extremist for all of these things at once?"

Sam Poe
Sam serves on the Newfrontiers apostolic team in the USA. He and his wife, Marlene, have travelled widely, serving churches in the USA and other nations. In recent years they have been particularly involved in working together with a number of churches in Russia and the Ukraine. Sam and Marlene are presently based in Tacoma, Washington, USA, where they are part of a new church plant. Sam is also serving other churches related to Newfrontiers in that region as part of the apostolic team.

Guy Miller
Guy Miller leads the Bournemouth Family Church, UK and leads apostolic teams that serve the Wessex Region with seventeen churches. He also overseas the work of 21 churches in the North and West of India, and two churches in Portugal. He is a passionate family man, married to Heather, with four children, and loves fishing.

Prophets in the New Testament are not meant to be lonely isolated people who suddenly appear with a message from God. Rather, we are called to live in community, in team life. We are family; we are in a real relationship. Prophets are meant to work together in team with each other, and also with the other ministries.

Biblical Base For Team

• Acts 11:27-28
  “Some prophets” — notice it's a team. Agabus was part of a prophetic team that came from the Jerusalem church.
  
  
• Acts 13:1-3
  Again it says "prophets" (plural) and "teachers" (plural). There was a team of leaders in the church, and when they were together, the Spirit began to speak. Acts 15 — at the Council of Jerusalem, at the conclusion, some key leaders were chosen to go back with Paul and Barnabus. Judas and Silas went and said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers.
  
  
• 1 Timothy 4:14
  The prophecy came amidst the body of elders. Prophetic ministry releases things in people.

The foundational basis for this “team-life” is our triune God. God lives throughout all eternity in wonderful and joyous community. Three magnificent persons, ONE living God. When someone says the word “God,” do you think of him that way? God really is three-in-one. We are called not only to teach trinitarian theology, but to live trinitarian ways. 1 John 1:3-4. We need to be in fellowship with the persons of God and then reach out to others. There is an overflowing joy in the Trinity.

“The being of the church should echo the dynamic of the relations between the three persons who together constitute the Deity.” (Gunton)

This should put an end to all isolated one-man-band ministry.

Some of the Benefits of Prophetic Team Ministry

• The joy of serving together — a relational side. The prophetic can be a bit intense; working in team helps us to avoid getting that way. It helps us to not take ourselves so seriously. There is a rest in it.
  
  
• There is a fuller flow of revelation. No one gets it all. If a team prophesies, the results will be more full-orbed.
  
  
• Immediate accountability. There can be an immediate weighing of words.
  
  
• It can help check eccentricities. Some prophetic guys seem to think the weirder we can get the better. Lone ministries have no one who asks them, “Why are you being so weird?”
  
  
• Avoidance of the “super-star” syndrome. We all need help. We must not get our personal identity wrapped up in our gifting. There is a risk of over-exposure and feeling almost like a prophesying machine. You can begin to feel used.
  
  
• Avoidance of personal control or the manipulation of others. Never prophecy to get someone to do what you want them to do! Often we don't understand what we are saying when we prophesy, rather than trying to get anybody to do anything. (2 Corinthians 4:2 — see the way The Message interprets that.) The word is out there and can be weighed rather than with secret manipulation.
  
  
• Helps create an atmosphere of humility and submission. 1 Corinthians 14:29-33. Sometimes you can get a revelation that you don't share because you have to stop. Wait your turn. Stop and give someone else a chance, i.e. make room for others. If someone works alone, it's easy to overlook the authority and oversight of the local church leadership. Elders are the door of a church and have authority.
  
  
• Helps train up younger prophetic ministries.

The Value of Prophets Being Teamed With Apostles

• In 2004 there was a whole seminar on this topic.
  
  
• These two foundational ministries need to work together. Every single local church needs that foundation laid in it. This is teamwork.
  
  
• 1 Thessalonians was written by Paul, Silas, and Timothy. There is a team at work. Paul leads the team, but Silas is a prophet.
  
  
• Apostolic wisdom, teaching, and strategy, coupled with immediate prophetic revelation bring strength and vibrancy to local churches.

In Conclusion

• Prophetic teamwork is of great value. It's the primary NT model for prophetic ministry.

David Stroud
David Stroud leads ChristChurch, London, and the Newfrontiers UK team. He has been involved in leading churches for over fifteen years, and ChristChurch is the third church that he has planted. He is married to Philippa, who works as an adviser on issues of social justice in Westminster, and they have three children.

See also Andrew Fountain's notes from this talk: Being Sure of Who We Are as a People.

Dave Stroud spoke to us today about the identity markers of Newfrontiers.

We must be very clear on who God is and who he has made us to be. If we forget who we are, then we will not be able to handle the things that happen. Dave wanted to spend his session reminding us what holds us together as a movement. What underlines our confidence? What enables to respond with boldness? Dave took us to the first few verses of Acts 13 and the church of Antioch. At its height, one in three people of Antioch were believers. It was a church that sent people out for a century after these events.

FIVE THINGS THAT TIE US TOGETHER

1. We are a people of the Spirit.
   
   There were prophets in the church at Antioch. This happens when the Spirit is poured out. They know something of the closeness of God. When Paul and Barnabas went, if asked, they would have said, “God said to us!” We have experienced something of the presence of God that has drawn us together. We don't make decisions on the basis of strategic planning as in businesses. Big decisions in the NT church, and in our churches, are made because God spoke. For example, “The Spirit of Jesus wouldn't let them” go somewhere. We as Newfrontiers have always sought to be led by the Spirit of God. For example, a couple were considering moving to Dublin to start a Newfrontiers church. They believed that God was speaking to them and prayed that God would speak to their kids. The next morning their daughter came down and said, “Are we moving?” Their ten-year old daughter had a dream of a sundial in the garden, a porthole, and windows that were not windows in the roof. The parents said nothing, but took their children on a weekend trip to Dublin. They were walking and looked in the window of one estate agent, whereupon their daughter suddenly said, “Thats the house I saw in my dream!” Sure enough, they ended up buying that house, and it was exactly as their daughter described. John Wimber felt God say when he arrived in London, “Give me back MY church!” It doesn't belong to us. When the Spirit speaks, people go and become those they never thought they could be.
   
   
2. We are deeply dependent on Scripture.
   
   It wasn't just prophets, but teachers also. We bow to God's Word. We give ourselves to it and develop a habit. The world tells us to set ourselves free by deciding what is right. In some cultures people treat their neighbours with respect; in others they eat them, and it's all done on the basis of feelings. We cannot just take the Holy Spirit bit. We must let the Word get to us. We must submit to the Word. Teachers lift the Word for us corporately. We can't just make it up. We must keep coming back to being shaped by Scripture. We shape ourselves individually and corporately by The Book. Prophets and teachers work together. Two sides of the same coin. Word and Spirit together.
   
   
3. We believe that these Word and Spirit churches are to be multiplied all over the world.
   
   In Antioch they were living for an outbreak of the Spirit, globally not just locally. We need to take salvation to the ends of the earth. We cannot simply be focused on the nation where we live. We need a heart for the nations. Paul and Barnabas knew that at some point they had to go — there was a timing with God. They built a strong sending base where they were, and then they went and started churches. That is the biblical model for going to the nations. Churches are something that can reach people in decades. It's Spirit people founded on the Word going to the nations with clear annointed leadership.
   
   
4. We believe in the Ephesians 4 ministries.
   
   The terms of Ephesians 4 are not just useful terms; rather they are uniquely fitted to get the mission done. The Church functions well with this leadership. Imagine if a general replaced your head teacher at a primary school and ran it like an army! Imagine the army going into battle and the general is replaced with a conductor. In the same way, it is ridiculous to try and fulfil the biblical vision without apostles and prophets. That is the sort of leadership God has given. What Paul did is needed today. Apostles give to churches a sense of identity. Apostles will aggressively see the big picture and want to see nations filled with churches.
   
   
5. We are full of confidence.
   
   Why were Paul and Barnabus ready to take such a big step? It was because they knew that God would succeed. God will give us all we need so we can go. God will have a bride for himself. Even though that doesn't mean that everything we touch will succeed, knowing the eventual triumph of God's Word will strengthen our resolve, even when things are tough. As someone said, “Expect great things from God. Attempt great things for God.” We have the privilege of cooperating with God.

HOW DO WE RESPOND TO THIS?

• Don't get stuck in one place
  
  The world is too big! Sometimes a promotion from God requires us to physically move. For example, Elijah passed on the call of God to anoint a king to Elisha who himself handed it on. We have to hand on the promises we have for an area and pass them on. The vision is bigger than what we can accomplish. We must be open to the Lord. We must trust him to help those who are left behind.
  
  
• Stay connected to Apostles and Prophets
  
  Following anointed leadership gives benefits to ourselves. Leaders shape us and give us impetus. Apostles and prophets are given by God and have anointing given by him. Apostles create spheres and an anointing goes with it. Word and Spirit churches are not built by one leader. We are a family of Word and Spirit churches going to the nations under anointed leadership and full of confidence that God will fulfil his mission.

At Together On A Mission, we also have a conference within a conference for students and those in their 20's. It was a real pleasure to interview Tom Shaw, a friend of mine, who heads up that conference. You can listen to that message right here or download it to your computer:

Over at Pure Church there is a good article about how we should talk to children about race. It is well worth a read. I have included the headlines here:

1. Talk with your children about ethnicity (the nations) rather than "race."
   
   
2. Talk about ethnicity in a way that magnifies the power and wisdom of God. We should be amazed more often than we are (excuse me for projecting my dullness onto you!) at the sheer power and wisdom of God who can create "difference" and "same" in His creation ...
   
   
3. Talk about the need of all men for the Savior. Not only are we alike in our humanity, but we are therefore alike in our sin, guilt, shame, and need for divine rescue. We are far more alike than we are different ...
   
   
4. Talk about the Gospel and the Church as the plan of God to demonstrate unity across such diversity and to display His wisdom.

It doesn't seem that long ago that Terry Virgo preached at the church I attend, and it blessed us so much — listening to him always seems to do that to me. It was great to be able download and listen to a sermon this evening entitled Becoming a Member of the Body, preached earlier this month by Terry Virgo at Christ Church London, which meets in a central London theatre.

He preached on Ephesians 4, boldly dealing with the controversial issue of the continuation of "Ephesians Four Ministries," but the entire message was packed full of fantastic material that challenged his hearers to play an active role in the church. It is well worth listening to in its entirety. This sermon, along with the one Terry preached for us, makes a great introduction to his teaching. You can download this new sermon from the Christ Church site, or listen to it online here using the following player:


Luke Wood has served us well by sharing the following quotes from Terry Virgo's sermon:

"So the church is vital in God's programme — it should be vital in every Christian's life, [in] our experience of church life."

"It's important for us, too, to realise that [al]though we're meeting in a theatre here, and we're very relaxed, and we don't have clergy and laity, and we don't have 'priest and people,' and we could look as if we're really rather novel — maybe reactionary, maybe just trying to be relevant to our generation and just do[ing] it different[ly] . . . actually, those are none of the motivations that stir us. We're happy to be here, we're happy to be relevant to our generation, we're certainly wanting to be contemporary to this generation, but our endeavour is to be as biblical as is at all possible. We want to really take the Scriptures [seriously] because we believe that's God's way of building [His] church, that's God's way of touching our generation and fulfilling His purpopse amongst us. So yes, we may look rather different in a place like this, but we are building, as far as we know how, seriously from a biblical base. We're trying to get it right because there we believe God will bless."

"Is this church properly founded? That's an apostolic work. Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3, 'When I came to you, as a wise master builder' — the Greek word gives us our word architect, someone who sees the whole plan — 'I laid a foundation.' Now there he's talking about one local church. He did his apostolic work making sure it was properly founded. So that was . . . the role of [the] apostles and that work will continue until Jesus comes — the necessity of churches being properly founded ..."

"Jesus ascended on high: it doesn't say He gave some priests, He gave some clergymen — it doesn't say that, it's not in the Bible. It says He gave some apostles to make sure churches are properly founded on their identity in Christ ... establishing the community, giving them a sense of identity, purpose, and meaning ... establishing bodies of Christ if you like, in town after town after town. Places where Jesus was manifest in phenomenal glory again and again and again. That's part of our calling as a family of churches, from generation to generation. Let's plant church after church where the presence of Christ can be known in that particular place."

"The book of Ephesians probably is the one that most emphasizes the place of the church. It's interesting that Jesus said to His disciples 'Go and make disciples of all the nations,' and the strategy they immediately took on board was to go and plant local churches. That was the way they saw that they were going to fulfil that commission to make disciples. That was the way they chose to do it."

"And so we're very much in line with that biblical arrangement, that you go and plant churches, you go and gather people together. That's the way we fulfil the commission of the Lord Jesus to 'Go and make disciples of all the nations.' It's very important, then, that you're built into a local body and, of course, Ephesians highlights the place of the church in several ways. It talks about a temple, not of concrete or stones, but of living people that are built together as a context for the presence of God. It talks about the church as a bride in Ephesians 5 — that relationship of intimacy ... and then it speaks of the church also, by implication, as an army. It says we're soldiers, we're to put on the armour, we're to fight. And then in this particular chapter in Ephesians 4 it talks of us as a body together."

Terry Virgo's website also has a growing collection of his sermon audios available.

This is going to my last post before the weekend. This is because tonight I have Josh Claybourn and his mates coming to stay, and then tomorrow evening we go on our church weekend away. I will probably have to spend the vast majority of the weekend with my foot up resting my knee. As I am wanting to go back to work sometime next week, I'm hoping that it will go OK from a knee point-of-view, and be a great time. I guess it will be a good test.

Basically that's all folks — until Monday or Tuesday — when we'll get back to the atonement series.

Before I go, I wanted to point you to a post from Luke Wood on how parachurch and church can work together on a university campus. I'm not sure if some of the same flash points exist in the American student scene or not, but I'm glad Luke has addressed some of these things. I'm also glad that in many places the church and Christian unions are beginning to understand each other better and work together.