I have known Lex for approximately twenty years. His passion for Jesus is, if anything, more infectious now than when I first met him. Spending this twenty minutes or so with him left me wanting to tell more people about Jesus. I suspect that if you pour yourself a coffee, pull up a chair, and join us, you will feel the same.

We spent some time together speaking about how he came to be an evangelist who travels to many countries sharing the good news alongside local churches. He said that his involvement with Jubilee Church Cape Town for many years (he is one of the elders there) has been vital for his ministry. Lex has a blog which focuses on church history. He is passionate about bringing reformed theology, a respect for the great events of church history, and a love for the unchanging gospel of the Bible together with evangelistic zeal, faith, and an expectation of the miraculous presence of Jesus. It’s a great recipe, in my opinion!

Lex Loizides — Interview With A Church-Based Evangelist from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

Richard Cunningham at New Word Alive from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

I interviewed my old friend, Richard, who is one of the main forces behind the event. We spoke about the vision for this conference, and he also revealed that next year Wayne Grudem will be one of the speakers.

Rob Horner on NWA Youth from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

Rob Horner serves in Vaughan Roberts' church in Oxford. He has a "proper" job as well. At New Word Alive he was in charge of the youth.

Vicky Lavy - International Ministries Head for CMF from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

Yesterday I shared an interview with Peter Saunders of the Christian Medical Fellowship. Today, hear VIcky Lavy speak about how Christian doctors and other health professionals are still needed to work as missionaries short or long-term.

Peter Saunders of the Christian Medical Fellowship from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

I first met Peter many years ago when I was editor of the CMF student journal. CMF works hard to advance the gospel in the medical sphere, and to work on important policy and ethical issues.

Wendy Virgo from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

Wendy is married to Terry Virgo, the leader of Newfrontiers. We spoke about what it's like traveling with Terry to hear him speaking about grace many times, about conferences, her impression of New Word Alive, about the Brighton Newfrontiers Conference, about Mark Driscoll and Wayne Grudem, and about her new book, "Influential Women." I wrote a summary of the interview for the on site paper which Terry has posted on his blog.

Kids Work At New Word Alive from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

When you are an adult at a conference like New Word Alive, it is easy to forget that there are several other programs going on in parallel. This video begins with some footage of the children having fun (filmed with parental permission) and continues with an interview with one of the leaders who was working with the 5's to 8's.

Interview with Vaughan Roberts from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

Vaughan has been rector at St. Ebbes, Oxford since 1998. We spoke about how a few years ago it would have been surprising to see the heads of the Proclamation Trust and Newfrontiers together. He described meeting Terry Virgo and discovering that they both liked the same books. He spoke about how we all do need to learn from each other since the caricatures we have are not entirely without a grain of truth.

We then spoke about the parasitical nature of liberalism. A liberal gospel never converts anyone. People are saved into a context that is serious about what the Bible says, but then they sometimes drift into liberalism. He said he is looking for those who value the authority of the Bible over system and human reason. For some people within the evangelical tradition, the Bible doesn’t drive their ministry.

Vaughan said that whilst a new believer might not fully appreciate how the cross saves us, when someone has looked into it and is saying "I do not accept penal substitutionary atonement," he believes they are departing from Scripture. Vaughan argues that this skews the gospel at so many levels. We have a problem, sin which leads to the wrath of God. The solution must match that. There is a simplicity and depth to the classic explanation of the gospel.

Interview With Liam Goligher from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

One of my favorite memories from this year's New Word Alive is meeting Liam Goligher. If you only want to watch one video from the event, watch this one. I am thrilled that this is the post I am sharing with you on my sixth blog anniversary (it was the 16th April 2003 when this journey began!)

Liam and I have spoken on the phone before, and from the first call I immediately knew that he was a real defender of the gospel. I heard him preach at NWA, and I was blown away. He has the full package: a thoughtful intelligent approach to the text, relevance, humor with biting illustrations, passion, and a big dose of that hard to measure thing called "anointing." His preaching brought the tangible presence of God and conviction. To be honest, and this is not an exaggeration, I think he is something of a British John Piper.

But it was only in meeting him face-to-face that I realized how much fun he is. We laughed a lot, as well as speaking about many important subjects. This included the need for preachers to let their sermon grip them personally and to pray for the work of the Holy Spirit, which must empower preaching. We also spoke about aspects of the gospel which are under attack and must be vigorously defended.

Liam also spoke about the need to remember to emphasize important aspects like the resurrection, which might not be under attack in the same way. We spoke about my book, and at one point he ribbed me mercilessly, but then was very kind about his own reaction to reading it.

Liam Goligher is the senior pastor of Duke Street Church, Richmond London, which is growing rapidly and currently has around 600 people who attend on a Sunday. Liam is on the committee which organizes New Word Alive, as well as being a regular conference speaker at other events. His preaching is available to listen to free online or to purchase on CD. He is currently preaching on Isaiah in the mornings and Revelation in the evenings.

Keith Getty - Writer of In Christ Alone from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

Keith and I spoke about music styles, working with Stuart Townend, with whom he wrote "In Christ Alone," and the role of worship songs in teaching theology, among other things.

Stuart Townend Interview from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

Filmed at New Word Alive 2009, this is an interview with leading song writer Stuart Townend, who is one half of the team that composed "In Christ Alone". Stuart and I had a lot of fun, and spoke a bit about what its like for us being at an event like this. We also spoke about worship, and music styles. He explained his interest in folk music, talking about how the melody is much more prominent than in other styles.

Nathan and Lou Fellingham of Phatfish from Adrian Warnock on Vimeo.

This is an interview with Nathan and Lou Fellingham of Phatfish filmed at New Word Alive 2009. Louise was in a cheeky mood and we had a good time talking about their forthcoming albumn, what its like to be a mum and a member of a band, and how they both found New Word Alive. For more information about this wonderful family band, see the Phatfish website where you can buy CDs of their music or my interview with Nathan from last year.

Hugh Palmer was kind enough to record the following interview with me and Tope Koleoso while he was with us last Sunday. It was a lot of fun, and we spoke about how he felt folowing in John Stott's shoes, the similarities and differences between All Souls and Jubilee Church, and how it is the gospel that allows us to unite. You can watch it online here or download the mp3.

Philippa Stroud is the Executive Director of the UK's Centre for Social Justice. She spent seventeen years in poverty-fighting projects and published a book on social injustice before her involvement in the CSJ. From 1987 to 1989 Philippa worked in Hong Kong and Macau among the addict community. From 1989 to 1996 she pioneered a four-stage residential support project in Bedford enabling homeless people to move off the streets and to become contributing members of the community. From 2001 to 2003 Philippa developed a project to care for the homeless, addicts, and those in debt in Birmingham. In 2003 she became a founder of the Centre for Social Justice. In 2005 Philippa became the Director of the Conservative Party’s Social Justice Policy Group focusing on rethinking the Party’s approach to the family, education, addiction, debt, and employment.

Philippa has been selected as the Conservative's candidate for Sutton and Cheam to be the Member of Parliament at the next election. You can see her campaign page, or join her Facebook group.

I have been fortunate enough to know Phillipa for a few years. She is in my wider circle of aquaintances. But recently I was able to sit down with her and ask her about her work in the political arena. I hope you enjoy watching this video as much as I enjoyed recording it.

This is the final session of my interview with John KpiKpi. In it we discuss a recent healing in which he was involved, and which may have been a raising from the dead. You can download the audio of the entire interview or watch part 5 of the video series below. Previous segments of this interview can be found at the following pages:

• John KpiKpi, Leader of Newfrontiers, West Africa
  
  
• John KpiKpi, Part 2, Multiculturalism
  
  
• John KpiKpi, Part 3, Multiculturalism Continued
  
  
• John KpiKpi, Part 4, Church Planting in Africa

I concluded my interview with Dave Stroud by asking him about the church he leads in London. You can download the mp3 of the entire interview or listen to the last part here:

I concluded my interview with Matt Giles with asking him about his excelent new song, The Grace of My God. You can listen to the audio of the whole interview or watch the other parts here.

This is the second and final part of my interview with Scott Thomas of the Acts 29 Network. You can download the audio of whole interview or watch the second part below. Part 1 can be seen here.

Scott speaks about how Acts 29 aims to help potential church planters.

Today I conclude my interview with Mark Driscoll. You can download the audio of the whole interview and watch the final segment below. The three previous segments can be viewed at the following pages:

• Video Interview - Mark Driscoll, Part 1 - Prophecy and Newfrontiers
  
  
• Video Interview - Mark Driscoll, Part 2 - A Prophecy for Newfrontiers and Worship
  
  
• Video Interview - Mark Driscoll, Part 3 - Impressions of the UK

During the course of this interview, Driscoll is very warm about Newfrontiers. If you are interested in finding out more about Newfrontiers, why not attend one of the Newfrontiers events in the USA, the UK, or other countries or visit the Newfrontiers website, or Terry Virgo's Blog.

Mark Driscoll also has a blog, hosted at The Resurgence, where you can find out more, as well as the Acts 29 Network and Mars Hill Church.

I continue my interview with Mark Driscoll by talking about his prophecy for Newfrontiers and his view of our worship.

I have not yet had a chance to finalize my notes from the Dwell Conference, so I thought I'd begin sharing the video content I have from my time in Brighton. Keep coming back for more interviews, and also for the notes still outstanding.

I begin my interview with Mark Driscoll by talking about his impressions of Newfrontiers and his view of prophecy.

This concludes my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. Today Terry provides insight into why he decided to work together with the New Word Alive conference. He also tells us how he chooses who to work with, and in particular, what led him to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference, which will begin on July 8th. (I will be live-blogging the conference.) The video of this segment of the interview can be viewed here.

The two previous segments of this interview with Terry and Wendy can be read at these pages:

• Terry and Wendy Virgo at New Word Alive
  
  
• Terry and Wendy Virgo on Itinerant Ministry

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Adrian
I can see from what you’re saying just how incredibly busy you must personally be overseeing all this. It just kind of brings me back to the fact that, yeah, you’re taking time out from your busy schedules to come here, so you must feel that this conference is pretty important and pretty crucial for, I guess, those outside of Newfrontiers. There aren’t that many Newfrontiers people here. Why would you come here? What’s so important about this specific conference this week?

Terry
I truly believe God wants to bring together a people who love Scripture, people who would flock to hear someone like Don Carson or John Piper, people who really regard Scripture highly.

Adrian
Very good. So, how do you determine, then, who you’re going to work with and who you’re not. Obviously you’re happy to work with these guys, and without going to names, I guess there must be others in UK that you’re not happy to work with. How do you determine that?

Terry
Most of my life has to be lived working out my commitment to Newfrontiers. That is where my loyalty lies. That’s where my duty lies. These are people who are expecting me to serve them, and I’m very happy to serve them. I’ve always felt that God said, “Now always keep a door open to the broader body of Christ. Don’t get shut in.” So for decades now, we’ve always had some involvement. So I get invitations and I have to choose here and there whether I will go. And this seemed a really brilliant place to come. I was honored to be invited, especially with a Carson and Piper here. So, yeah, I count it a huge privilege to be here. Also being a fairly substantial sizable conference, it means one can reach many people in a short time. After I spoke at the UCCF Forum, I had dozens, I think it would be true to say, letters from Christian Unions saying would I please come and speak at their CU. Well, I can’t do that. I can’t be driving all over England, speaking in CU meetings. But I can speak to a couple thousand students here in one week, so this is a really good economy of time, as well as an enjoyable thing to do.

Adrian
Okay. So I know, as an example, you’ve chosen to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference this year. And in the past you’ve chosen various people who some people, I think, were surprised about. How do you go about choosing them, and specifically Mark. What made you choose Mark for this year’s Brighton Conference?

Terry
I’ve been listening to Mark Driscoll over the last year or so, I guess. I’m deeply impressed with his biblical stance. I think he’s an unusually powerful preacher. He is also bitingly relevant to our generation and aware of the culture in which we live. I think he’s very unusual. He’s not only fighting for the truth in some sort of static way of just defining the doctrine. He reminds me of a kind of latter day Spurgeon. He’s very clear on doctrine. He’s very evangelistic, building a great church, it sounds, helping to plant churches in Acts 29—again like Spurgeon, who helped to get churches started all around London. You hear about people in Australia who were reading his sermons a week or so after he preached them in London as they printed them and sent them round the world. And now Driscoll’s been downloaded all over the world. He’s an unusual guy, very robust, like Spurgeon was, out of step somewhat, even with his group. But I love what I hear. I’ve yet to meet him, but I love what I hear.

Adrian
Great. Excellent. Well, we’ll look forward to another big conference in July. It seems like there’s conference after conference, doesn’t it? It’s great, I guess, to have people gathering round God’s Word and learning stuff. I mean, that’s what I find anyway. I like conferences because you keep going . . .

Terry
I think I love the local church the most, and I know that would be true of you.

Adrian
Yes!

Terry
That’s where we work out our lives. That’s where we grow. We can’t build our lives on conferences. But we have been associated with some very big ones over the years and know the huge impact, so I certainly don’t despise conferences, but I know that in the end we work out our lives in God in the local church.

Adrian
H-m-m-m. Very good, very good. Well, thanks very much, both of you, for joining us. It’s been a real delight, as always, and I guess we’ll leave it with that. Thank you.

Terry
Thank you, Adrian.

This is the second installment of my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo which began yesterday. That segment can be read here. The video version of this part of the interview can be seen here.


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Adrian
Wendy, I want to ask you something now because it’s been awhile since you’ve had a chance to get a word in edgewise—I suspect you might be used to that! (Laughter) How has it been for you with your husband—obviously in the younger years, away a lot—leaving you at home with the kids—five I think?

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
This is a very personal question, because my poor wife has the same problem.

Wendy
Oh, yes, she has five kids, too.

Adrian
And me traveling more for work, of course. But how did you cope being left alone, like she is right now, with five children and actually no car, I’m ashamed to admit.

Wendy
Oh, right. Well, when Terry was away, usually it was abroad, so I did have the use of the car, which was very helpful.

Adrian
Well, she usually does as well. This is, in fact, the first time since we went down to one car that we’ve been in this situation.

Wendy
Oh, right.

Adrian
Well, what about you? You were left at home; he was away . . .

Wendy
Well, our main focus is to build churches, which are really all one another in context, so we aren’t left alone, in fact. I was very much involved in church life and very beautifully loved and served by the church that I’ve been in now for twenty-five or six years. And, I didn’t actually feel that I was left alone. Obviously, I missed Terry a lot when he was away, but life was very busy and very full, and I never felt solitary, if you know what I mean.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

Wendy
And it has been great that as the children have grown up and now have their own homes (they’re all married now) that I can travel much more with Terry. I think it is a new season. Terry always used to travel with another guy or a group of guys because it was part of his training of them and part of introducing them to our values and helping them to see how an apostle works and how to work with an apostle, and developing a whole understanding of apostolic work. So, to take a group of guys with him was very helpful and instructive to all concerned. But now we have a number of men who would be in that position, like David Holden, Dave Devenish, and so on, who would also take groups of people with them, teams I would say. But as they have developed teamwork as well, they are now going off with their wives because their children are also grown up. So it’s becoming a bit of a pattern, I think.

Adrian
You’re very much involved, right in the thick of things, then?

Wendy
Probably not as much as say, some people like Dave Devenish, who goes into a place for several weeks or months at a time.

Adrian
And he’s taken his wife in those situations?

Wendy
Well, yes, that’s the thing. It’s quite a sacrifice, I think, at times. Tramping around places like Kazakhstan, places I can’t even pronounce. But, actually, Terry now will be going to Australia for three months at the end of this year, and that will be a new adventure for us.

Adrian
But you went to America for three years, didn’t you?

Wendy
Two years.

Adrian
Two years!

Wendy
Yes, yes. Actually that was a very positive time, too.

Adrian
Yes. So, I’m going to move back to Terry for a moment now because your wife just mentioned this funny “a” word—apostolic, apostle work. What about that? Because obviously there will be a lot of people who will, I guess, not really understand what that means for Newfrontiers.

Terry
Yes. I think it’s very important to say that we see different types of apostles, even in the Bible—Jesus the great apostle; the twelve, unique obviously, in the book of Revelation. But then you see in Ephesians 4—Jesus ascends on high and gives from his ascended position apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers—so there’s that ongoing ministry. He says this will be until the Church comes to fullness of stature, to a mature man. So, in a sense, this is an ongoing thing that God will continually give these varied ministries. So one isn’t looking for more Bible writers. I think very often we from the reformed tradition have thought—well, an apostle writes the Scripture and that’s his role. But, really, I don’t think that stands up to close inspection. Several of the twelve did not write Scripture. Several of the people who wrote Scripture were not apostles, so it’s not really the point. The point is more church planters. Paul says as a wise master builder, “I lay the foundation”—he traveled, he planted churches. We feel that’s really what we’re talking about—modern day church planters. People who pioneer new ground, establish eldership, establish churches, and a fathering, ongoing care for those churches, strongly built on relationship, so that we’re friends in the ministry, as Paul referred to people. Even at the end of Romans, in chapter 16, there are all these personal greetings to people. So we’re building very relationally. We’re building new churches, planting churches. And now various teams have been raised up doing apostolic work. [Ed: See post Apostles Are Meant For Today for more information.]

Adrian
Right. So I guess in summary what you’re talking about, for those people who have different vocabularies, is someone who can church plant and help establish churches. That’s obviously exciting. I mean, there are 500 churches in Newfrontiers now, aren’t there? Is that right?

Terry
It’s probably nearer 600 now.

Adrian
Wow! Last time I checked it was 400, so the number must be going up very quickly.

Terry
Yes, it is. I’ve been in touch today, just a moment ago, with Edward Buria in Kenya, where there are now some 130 churches, which he has helped start, and we served with him and are very much in touch with him at the moment with the political tensions there. And then we have churches in South Africa, and indeed, around the world. So when you add them all up around the world, it’s untold. It’s difficult to keep up because Edward plants so many churches in Kenya. But we’re also planting churches in West Africa, South Africa, and into Asia, and as Wendy was saying, Australia now, New Zealand. So we’re planting churches very widely.

Adrian
You didn’t mention anything about America, though.

Terry
Yes, we are. I’ve been to the USA, and in fact, we’ll be at the . . .we’ve been in March to the Leaders Conference, and then we’re going again in June to our midwest family camp [ONEBLAZE] held in Warrensburg [Missouri] just outside Kansas City, and then in August we’re going across to the West, where we have growing involvement in Oregon, and in Idaho and Montana—a number of churches that are reaching toward us. Quite a lot of these pastors are coming over. I understand thirty pastors are coming from the West to our Brighton Conference, Together on a Mission, in July, where there will be about 5,000 gathered there. But just from that part of America, we have thirty coming. So I would think there might be something in the region of sixty coming over from the US to our conference in the summer. [Ed: For more details see Newfrontiers events in the USA.]

Continued in part 3 . . .

Today I am going to share the written transcript of the first segment of a three-part interview with Terry Virgo and his wife, Wendy at the New Word Alive Conference in North Wales. The video of that segment can be seen here. I have also previously interviewed Terry here.

In this segment I ask them to tell us a little bit about what they do, what is Newfrontiers, and how Terry came to speak at the New Word Alive Conference this year.


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Adrian
Hi. I’m Adrian Warnock. I blog over at adrianwarnock.com and I’m part of the leadership team at Jubilee Church in London. I’m here at New Word Alive in North Wales, and am actually in Terry and Wendy Virgo’s chalet. Terry and Wendy very kindly agreed to join us for a short interview about the conference and whatever else we decide to talk about, I guess. So, thanks for joining us, Terry and Wendy.

Terry
Thanks, Adrian. Good to see you.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s great that you were able to find some time to chat with us, and to just be here at this conference. I just wonder, how have you found the conference so far?

Terry
Well, we’ve really enjoyed the opportunity for fellowship with a number of people we wouldn’t normally see. First of all, I’ve never met Don Carson, and it’s been magnificent to listen to him, and John Piper—inspiring again. It’s good to make new friends—people whose names I’ve known, like Wallace Benn. This is the first time I’ve got to meet him. It’s been an excellent time. Thank you.

Adrian
Good, thanks. And what about you, Wendy?

Wendy
Yes. I wasn’t quite sure what I was coming to, but I was relieved to find it is set in an absolutely beautiful location. And also I have so enjoyed especially Don Carson’s and John Piper’s messages. I’ve really been blown away by their passionate delivery of theology.

Adrian
Yeah, it’s been great, hasn’t it? So, Terry, there will be a few people watching this [and reading it] who perhaps won't know who you are. I mean, I find that amazing; you probably don’t find that amazing. But people do watch this in the States, and also some other places. I wonder if you could, in your own words really, talk a little bit about what it is you do with your life when you’re not in a chalet in Wales.

Terry
Yes, which is pretty rare! I’m based in Brighton on the south coast of England, and I’m an elder of a church there called Church of Christ the King. From there, I travel out with Newfrontiers, which is a group of churches that works in about 40 nations now. In the UK we have about 220 churches, and then globally we’re pressing on towards 600 churches. So I travel a lot. Later this month we’ll be in Russia at a pastors and wives conference, and then we’ll be in the States in May and June, and we’ll be in France with our pastors and wives there from the Newfrontiers churches. So we travel quite a lot.

Adrian
You say “we.” Is that the two of you, or just you, or sometimes a mixture of both?

Terry
We have five children who are all now married and have left home. And we often travel together now.

Adrian
Oh, that's the "we."

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
So what does Wendy get up to, then, when she’s not holding your bags? Well, I hope he carries your bags Wendy!

Wendy
Yes, traveling does take up a lot of our time, but when I’m at home I love to be involved in things like Alpha Courses, although increasingly I’m not able to do that. But I do write for various Bible notes such as TWR and Day By Day, the Bible Reading Fellowship, Scripture Union obviously for as well. I speak at ladies’ days around the country, and I’m also engaged in writing a book at the moment.

Adrian
That’s very interesting. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Or are you sworn to secrecy on that?

Wendy
Well, yes, perhaps it is a little bit premature, but it’s about the effect that women can have in a Church for good or bad.

Adrian
Very good. That sounds really interesting. I look forward to reading that, no doubt, sometime in the future. Now you’re going to have to finish it as you’ve said it online.

Wendy
I know.

Adrian
(Laughing) There you go! So, obviously both of you are incredibly busy, traveling an awful lot, all around the place, looking after all these churches. What made you decide to accept the invitation to come here? I know you’ve been involved with UCCF for quite awhile as well, haven’t you? Is it some kind of advisory board you’re on with them, or . . .

Terry
Yes. The invitation came from UCCF. I’ve made a very good friend in Richard Cunningham. He’s a fine guy. I like him. He asked me to be involved with UCCF, and then having agreed to that, I was then invited to speak at their Leaders Forum a year or two back, and had a very happy time working through Romans and then leading Bible studies. And I’ve enjoyed the fellowship. I’m so glad that they have embraced us. We come from a charismatic perspective. Our church life is charismatic. UCCF has not been famously charismatic, but they’re making a statement of openness, and I’ve been received very warmly, both in their Forum, which I’m due to speak at again next year (2009), and then here as well. And so it’s an interesting coming together of people who love Scripture, love doctrine, love the truth of God. And it’s great to have Stuart Townend here, and Phatfish, who come from my home church. We're very proud of them. Stuart’s written some magnificant songs, as have Phatfish, and I know they are welcomed around the world. It’s great to be together with them here as well. So we’ve enjoyed that.

Adrian
Yeah, and we’re singing the same songs as well, aren’t we? It’s interesting. Those divisions, at least in terms of songs, just don’t seem to be there anymore, really, you know?

Terry
I was fascinated when I was invited to speak at the Keswick Convention, probably three years ago now, and again I felt as the worship took place before I spoke, I think three-quarters of the songs we sang had been written by people in my home church. I felt remarkably . . .

Adrian
What is it about the sea water down there? You guys seem to keep producing singers, don’t you?

Terry
Yes, we have some great songwriters . . .

Adrian
I guess that church is a sort of resource church, really, isn’t it? I guess that would be one way of describing it in terms of—you have all kinds of different people going out and serving in various different way from there, haven’t you?

Terry
I think David Fellingham originally was with us from the beginning when we started our church. We started with 38 people back in about 1980, and David joined us quite early on with tremendous musical skills and devotion to God. He started writing songs that became very famous. And then others joined us like Stuart Townend, Paul Oakley, then his other son, Nathan Fellingham, came through writing songs. Kate Simmonds. More recently Simon Brading. In fact, we’re starting a worship school again this coming autumn, and we trust people will want to book in and come for the monthly program that will take place through this coming year.

Adrian
That’s great. So I mean, coming here, I guess we’re joining hands with people who perhaps years ago we'd never have imagined we'd be joining hands with. I mean, would that be a fair way of describing it?

Terry
Yes, it’s true. For me, when I was first converted from a completely non-Christian background, my sister had joined All Souls Langham Place, and I first responded to the gospel publically there. So I met John Stott on that day. So my roots go back to an evangelical context. And while I was at college, I listened to Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. So one feels so at home with these truths. Then I had an experience of the Holy Spirit, opening up the gifts of the Spirit in our church life. Which means we're certainly not cessationists. We believe in the presence and the power of God. We’ve never abandoned these great evangelical truths which we greatly love and have always preached during this time of enjoying the presence of the Spirit as well—seeing people being healed, and prophecies, and things of that order. So that we can find a very happy combination of those things.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that people are sort of almost feeling that this is a new thing—this combination of reformed and charismatic. I guess it’s newly prominent. It’s something that’s been around, I guess what you’re saying, all along. Is that right?

Terry
Well, I think I’ve always held that position going back many years. Joel Edwards, who has been the Evangelical Alliance leader for some years, said he felt that we at Newfrontiers in England were fairly unique for being famously charismatic and famously reformed theologically. He thought we were unusual. But we’re friends right across the board, and I’m very grateful for that.

Adrian
Good. Thanks.

Continued in part 2 . . .

As we drew to the close of the first segment of my interview with John Lanferman yesterday we began to speak about reformed charismatic churches. Today I begin by asking him if he believes there is a hunger for such churches in the USA. You can also download the audio of this interview.

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Adrian
Yeah, that’s so important, isn’t it? So as you look out over the nation, do you feel that there is a hunger in the US for these kind of churches, a desire to see them?

John
Absolutely. I think especially an emerging generation, the 20’s and 30’s generation, pretty much in the US left the church. But we’re seeing a lot of these people coming back into the church. In our own church, that would be the largest demographic. And these are young people who really have a value of the foundations of the past, historical Christian faith would be important to them, but also a mixture of what the culture has created—a desire to experience something in the Spirit. They’re not afraid of that. So you have this desire to be rooted in something that’s stable—historical Christian faith—but at the same time, wanting to experience something of God in the Spirit. And are not afraid of spiritual manifestations; in fact, they’re hungry for that. Hungry to experience the very real presence of God for themselves in a very tangible way.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s interesting because a lot of people are talking about that kind of resurgence of reformed faith in the US in the 20’s and 30’s [age group]. It’s interesting to hear you saying that a lot of those guys are also looking for something quite experiential.

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
I guess people like John Piper are probably a major part of that, aren’t they? Because the way he preaches—it’s all about knowing God, and [having] a kind of relationship with God, and valuing God, rather than just purely as an intellectual thing.

John
Yes, and he’s taken some fairly strong stands. He actually is not a cessationist. He actually does believe . . .

Adrian
Most people are really surprised when they hear that. What? John Piper is not a cessationist? You’re kidding!

John
That’s true. And he has huge influence in our nation among the evangelical community. I think his welcoming in of people like C. J. Mahaney, and even embracing guys like Mark Driscoll . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . and just to see what’s happening there encourages me quite a great deal.

One of the negative things that’s happening in the US as well—you have the emerging church. On one end of it you have a very orthodox guy like Mark Driscoll, and a bit colorful as well. (Adrian laughing) While on the other end you have people who have a greater degree of relevancy, so doctrine and theology is kind of fluid, and they want to adapt that to culture, and so that leads to heresy. And that’s a frightening thing. But there’s a wing of that emerging church that is very much moving in that direction as well, as you probably well know. That’s a frightening thing in the US because there’s quite a large following of that group as well.

Adrian
That’s right. And I think some of those historic doctrines are being questioned . . .

John
They are!

Adrian
. . . in a way that you’d be surprised at. But that’s not unique to the US either. As you know, we’ve had some issues over here with that, particularly with regard to the atonement and things like that. I mean, is the atonement such a big issue in the US as it is over here in the UK, would you say?

John
It’s not with mainline evangelical groups, but I think with the emerging church, the people who are on one side of that very much—that’s one of the questions. And even the desire to be culturally relevant and accepting of alternative life styles has led people to make an adjustment as to how they approach that. And they won’t make categorical statements any more. So they’re standing on sand rather than the solid rock of the Book. So I think that’s a concern as well. These guys are fairly media savvy, and it’s a subtle thing . . . to find a way into churches.

Adrian
I think that’ right. With the advent of the media and the Internet, well, I know this only two well. It’s possible for people to hit above their weight. I mean, Here am I — just some guy in a church in London whose blog is read all around the world. And I think that happening with a lot of people, and you can have influence, either for good or not good, far above, actually, what you are accomplishing on the ground in that sense. Or over what you feel you should have influence.

John
Yes, absolutely, that’s true.

Adrian
I think it is a bit concerning, isn’t it? How some people are causing us to drift away from truth.

John
The thing that’s concerning about it is that—not [only] are they gifted and charismatic, but in actuality, there’s the element of Christianity about them. So you’re dealing with something different than people who are totally secular. So it’s a subtle thing. A lot of people are not very scripturally astute. It’s easy to be pulled along in that train.

Adrian
Don’t you think that it’s quite interesting when you look [at it] historically? A lot of these ideas have been tried before, haven’t they?

John
Yes, they have. And the thing is, they always end up on a dead-end street. They don’t have a long cycle. They come around, but ultimately God is very protective of his Church. He is very zealous for it. And the church that’s rooted in biblical value and persuasion continues on. I’m very encouraged in America about the uptick in church planting. I don’t know if you want to talk about that or not . . .

Adrian
Yeah, church planting is great, yeah.

John
In the US, over the last two decades, there has been a deterioration in people who are committed to regular church attendance. It’s averaged a 10 per cent decline in each of the last ten years—so 20 per cent less are now involved in church activities, or even actually community activities, than before. But now, groups like Acts 29, and on a much, much smaller scale, but I like to say, Sovereign Grace, and Newfrontiers, and various other church planting movements, Global Net—these groups that are coming to the forefront planting churches, training people, are based on orthodox Christian faith with a real sense of mission. So missional churches are emerging among us, and many of them are growing, seeing lots of people saved. So I actually—while we have these rather alarming trends, I see much to be very excited about in the US.

Adrian
Yes, oh yes. Just for the sake of those out there—I know some people sitting out there are thinking, “What exactly is a missional church, John?” How would you define that?

John
A church that understands that it exists for the express purpose of carrying the gospel to the next door neighbor, to the person in the next block, to the person in the next city, state, and nation, and they exist for the purpose of being carriers of the gospel. So they are involved, not only in proclamation, but they are involved in changing the whole culture of a community. They would be people who would be involved in cross-cultural evangelism. They would be people who would be involved in changing the social justice—be involved in that ministry to the poor—so they have a desire to see the whole community that they are involved with, the towns they are involved with, changed and made into a kingdom community. It’s people who understand, “We do not exist for ourselves, but we exist for them.” So the way we spend our money. the way we staff our churches, the way our churches feel, the way they operate, have that outward appeal. And it’s a God-centered approach to humanity rather than an inward, “What about me and my needs?” It’s a man-centered approach.

Adrian
That’s very good. So that’s really very much what’s on your heart as you go across the nation, isn’t it? I guess that’s what you’re saying—to see those kinds of churches multiplied.

John
Absolutely—if we can get outstanding churches in each of these 100 large cities, and out from that, begin to reproduce ourselves. Because I’m fanatical on reproducing churches. We must not just plant churches, but we [want to] see churches that view themselves as reproducing churches, multiply themselves, raise up leaders, give themselves away, spread out in the communities and the nations beyond.

Adrian
It’s just so exciting to see what God is doing in a nation, but also what he’s doing around the world, and to be able to link up with that. I guess we’re back to the conference in a way. Because that’s what this is all about, isn’t it? Together on a Mission.

John
Yes, it is. And I think what’s interesting is how we help each other. The different nations, different men, bring different things into the pool. I’m receiving from others. I’m receiving from my friends in Africa, or my friends in India, and so it’s even the in-between times when we’re kind of sharing ideas back and forth and getting on board how we can assist one another. Because it’s just not about our own little patch. It’s us owning the world together. It’s us saying, “We want to see the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ grow and expand to all the nations of the world. So, I have just as much a vital interest in what’s happening in Africa, or what’s happening in Europe, as I would even in our own place. Because we have to own the whole vision of God. I do know that I have a particular responsibility for a sphere.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But God has called us to work together. I think that’s the joy of what’s happening here in this conference, and who we are in Newfrontiers as well.

Adrian
Yeah. And I guess when we gather together like this, significant words can come as well, that shape us really.

John
It’s true. I think it’s in the worship that God is speaking to us. It’s in the preaching as well. But also in prophetic words that come to us. And you can just see the impact that’s happening across the room . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . guys coming together and buzzing about this, and what God is saying. So it’s quite helpful actually.

Adrian
If my readers are sitting there in America somewhere thinking, “You know what?” This all sounds great. I’d love to be in a church like that.” How would they find out more?

John
Well, they can come to our website, of course. Just type into the search engine Newfrontiers USA, and there, of course, they can find us, and where our churches are located. Of course, I would welcome any contact there in St. Louis where we are based.

Adrian
Excellent. Do you run any conferences, or anything like that, there in the USA?

John
Yes, we do. We have an annual Leadership Conference that’s hosted by us there in St. Louis. But we have also moved out regionally. Originally we were just a small cluster of churches in Missouri, but now we have established cluster churches in New England, and we’ve moved into the Pacific Northwest, and now we’ve moved into the Southeast as well. So we’ve established regional events because we are a family of churches, just not a fraternity of leaders. So churches come together there for envisioning, and leadership events happen, as well as 20’s conferences, and events for teenagers. Just this next week, we’re gathering several hundred teenagers, not just to go to a camp and somehow be refreshed and go back all enthusiastic for a couple of weeks, but actually to be involved in a mission and social action. We’re going to go out into the streets. We’re going to get with children in the neighborhoods. We’re going to begin to work into that community. So we have lots of events by which we’re bringing people together. There’s something that can happen when a group of churches come together that simply cannot happen with a church on its own. And there is just a combined strength of coming together around the singleness of vision and purpose that not only helps with what we do together, but actually helps when people go back to their own churches. They’ve caught something, see? And they take it back with them. So we have several events like that. And men’s conferences and ladies conferences that are happening throughout the nation. So immediately when I go back, we will have a One Blaze event, which is the teen event, in St. Louis. And from there, I’ll leave the next week and go up to New England, and we’ll have a big family camp out there where we gather the churches. We bring in international speakers, as well as myself, and we’re envisioned.

Adrian
Great. Sounds great. It’s just so exciting to hear about what God’s doing over there in the States. Thank you so much for joining us, John. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with my readers before we close?

John
I’m very much enthused about what God is going to be doing in the US, and what he is doing now. I’m thrilled when I see the moving of his Spirit in more prononced ways, as well as the value of the Word. I’m particularly encouraged about missional churches that are sprining up all across our nation. So, I wouldn’t want to end here just with some of the other things we’ve talked about—alarming trends, etc. I’d like to says that I’m actually more encouraged today than I’ve ever been in my life in regard to what God’s doing in raising up his Church in the US.

Adrian
Excellent! Praise God for that. We wish you all the success in the future, John, and I look forward to hearing more about what goes on in the years to come when you’ve reached those 100 cities.

John
Yes, thank you, Adrian.

Adrian

Praise God. Thank you.

Next week the main Newfrontiers International conference of the year starts. To whet your appetite, I thought I'd share the transcript of an interview I did at Together On A Mission 2007 with John Lanferman. The audio for this interview is also available here.

John oversees a team of leaders who serve the churches in the Newfrontiers—USA family. His primary focus is leadership training, church planting, and supporting churches in the States. John and his wife, Linda, are a part of Jubilee Church in St. Louis, Missouri. His blog is at http://johnlanferman.blogspot.com/.

If you can't make it to this year's TOAM conference, I will once again be live-blogging it right here. It's still not too late to arrange to listen to one of Mark Driscoll's other speaking engagements in the UK.


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Adrian
Hi everyone. This is Adrian Warnock here again. I’m here at Together on a Mission, together with John Lanferman. John leads the work of Newfrontiers in the USA. I would like to ask him a little bit about the conference, and also his work overseas, because I’m aware that a lot of you are probably thinking, “Well, this Newfrontiers thing—it’s all well and good because it’s over in the UK” — where things are perhaps a little bit different. So, John, first of all, how are you enjoying the conference?

John
I think it’s magnificent. The preaching has been outstanding. The worship is amazing. God’s presence is here. He is speaking personally to people. He’s speaking to us as a family of churches as well. It’s wonderful to welcome 53 different nations into this setting.

Adrian
Yes, I think it’s so important to underline that, isn’t it, because people probably think, “Oh, it’s just a British thing,” when really it’s almost like a world conference, isn’t it?

John
Absolutely, it is. And just to make connection with people and find out what’s happening in their nations, and to see that we’re really on the same page as it relates to the kingdom of God. There’s not really a national distinction there when it comes to that.

Adrian
Yeah, I know. It’s been great. Some of the preachers have come from South Africa and . . .

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
You’ve got guys from Africa, other parts, all over, haven’t we here?

John
Yes, it’s wonderful.

Adrian
I guess really as well, this conference is perhaps a little bit different to some other conferences, isn’t it, in terms of the family feel. I don’t know how easily we can get that across to people who are at home reading the blog.

John
I think that’s the interesting thing. When you come together and you see people, and some of the people, of course, we know as well. But even in meeting new people, there’s a sense of community that seems to be automatic, and it’s just great to see people mixing it up, enjoying each other.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that’s right, because that doesn’t happen everywhere we go in conferences, does it?

John
No, I know some conferences that you may visit, and some I’ve visited in the US — I mean, you arrive. If you don’t know anyone or if you have a friend or two, you’re really not connected. There’s not a sense of togetherness on the mission . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
. . . and you break off, you go to lunch, or you go to your hotel room. There’s a sense of — you’re there to pick up information primarily and download information that maybe you can employ in your own situation.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But here it’s a totally different feel.

Adrian
That’s right. And there’s all these kind of little mini-meetings going on in all the breaks, isn’t there? I mean, the little breaks sort of get eaten up, don’t they?

John
All the time.

Adrian
(Laughing). And we’re sitting here and we’ve got what? I don’t know—another hour or so?—before the next session. And you squeeze in a meeting, don’t you?

John
That’s right, you do.

Adrian
But it’s good fun.

John
So it’s a pleasure, I think, as well, the in-between meeting times to connect relationally, talk to each other, find out what’s going on. It’s all part of the whole package.

Adrian
Yeah, exactly. John, I particularly wanted to chat with you because you head up the work of Newfrontiers in the USA, and so many of my readers are from that nation. So, are there many other Americans here at the conference?

John
Yes, there are several actually. We have four of our own local elders from St. Louis who are here, and some of our other staff members as well. But besides that, across the nation, we have representatives who lead churches that are here with us.

Adrian
So are there many Newfrontiers churches in the US?

John
Actually, there’s not at the time. We now have 23 churches in ten different states, but it was just a few years ago, like ten years ago, we had 7 churches in one state . . .

Adrian
Right.

John
. . . so these were churches that already had a history. Terry [Virgo] came over and spent a couple of years and left. It was in that setting, then, that we began to actually formulate who we were together, come together with a real sense of mission. We have churches that have a history, and we’ve been drawn together around Terry, and around the mission there, but obviously there are residual issues, so I think in the first few years there was a need for us to really come together to construct that all through, which we did, of course, and now we’re planting churches all across the nation.

Adrian
Okay, excellent. How do you decide where to go and plant a church?

John
I have, on my laptop, 100 cities, and I won’t be content until the top 100 cities in the U.S.—87 per cent of the nation’s population reside in these cities—so, one by one, we want to tick off these cities. When Newfrontiers started in the US, we were primarily a rural movement. We didn’t have any churches in any major cities. So, first of all, to come together around a mission and then begin to train leaders and set up training programs, to begin to envision people, and then see people move from the rural settings—although we’re very, very grateful; we’re still planting the rural settings—begin to make that big step into city centers. Kansas City was our first church plant; St. Louis (the one I led) was our second plant, and now we are in seven major cities. We’re in Seattle-Tacoma. We’re in Boston. We’re in Chicago. We’re in Nashville. We’re in Atlanta. We’re planting churches one by one into these major city centers, and we want these churches to become reproducing centers, so out from them churches are planted. So we have a fairly ambitious vision.

Adrian
Yeah, it sounds like it. So, what is it about a Newfrontiers church that is, say, different to other churches in the grand? Because I know some people might say, “Well, why bother planting churches? Surely we should just strengthen the ones that are there already.”

John
I think the thing that really draws us together is our sense of mission. Now there are other things, of course, that draw us together. Our very real value of Word and Spirit. We’re an interesting group because, in the US, you have evangelicals and people from various denominational persuasions. You have people who are charismatics. We’re a bit different because we are evangelical in that we are rooted in historic Christian faith. Most of our people would have a reformed theological perception. But we have a charismatic experience. And that’s quite unusual in the US. I think it sets us a bit apart from most other groups—not that there aren’t others that way—but it makes us different, I think, from what you would normally find in the US.

Adrian
Yeah. I sometimes have people writing to me, saying, “Is there a church like that in this place or in that place?” And I often wonder what other groups are there out there that are similar to Newfrontiers in some way. Are there other groups?

John
I would say Sovereign Grace would be similar to us. We’ve had good fellowship with that group. But there’s an interesting phenomenon that’s happening as well because in mainline evangelical circles, people that would have name recognition—guys like John Piper or Mark Driscoll—are, of course, well established in orthodox faith, but as well, are very open to and accepting and believing in certain charismatic expressions. So, it’s an interesting move that’s happening in the US in that regard.

Adrian
Yeah. So there’s a kind of—like what you’re saying—a coming together of the Word and the Spirit in a way.

John
I believe that’s exactly true. We do have other things. It’s a big country. The Christian television market, religious television market, and radio waves are fairly dominated by charismatics that would have a very experiential and often times a man-centered approach . . .

Adrian
Right.

John
. . . rather than a God-centered approach, which of course, is not helpful to be labeled in that particular camp because our root is indeed orthodox evangelical Christianity with a charismatic experience and expression.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Today I wrap up my interview with John Piper in this last segment. It is based on the video version of the interview, which can be viewed here. John talks about preachers he listens to and describes the circumtances which led him to the pastorate of Bethlehem Baptist Church. The three previous parts to the interview can be read at the following pages:

• John Piper on New Word Alive
  
  
• John Piper on Passionate Preaching
  
  
• John Piper on Prayer and Bible Study

Adrian
We have just been talking about studying the Word, and obviously books, but I guess for most preachers, they like to listen to other preachers as well. I guess you’re probably no exception to that. So who have you got on your iPOD that you’re actually listening to?

John
I do have an iPOD. It happens to sit in my speaker base in my bedroom as kind of an alarm clock. But my computer is in my study, and my treadmill is in my study. That’s the only time I ever listen to preaching—when I’m running. So three times a week, for thirty minutes or so, I’m listening to other people speak. So I download them from the Web, usually. Who are the last ones I listened to? I listened to [Don] Carson. I listened to R. C. Sproul. I listened to Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Somebody gave me the whole series of MLJ on Romans. I listen to C. J. Mahaney. I listen to John Sailhammer on the Old Testament. I listen to Carl Trueman on, what’s the topic? I can’t remember. A little while back. Basically, I’m looking for two things—one, contemporary relevant issues that I might want to dig into, or model preaching. So, whoever at that point, and they’re not always the same people, the model preachers and the ones who are talking about the things I feel like I need to get to know about.

Adrian
Okay. You’re obviously deeply committed to preaching and to pastoring, and you’ve been at Bethlehem an awful long time. I wonder, first of all, how did you make that decision to join Bethlehem, and was it a lifetime commitment at that moment, or was that something that evolved? How did it then develop into a long-term thing?

John
I was teaching Bible and Greek for six years at Bethel College from 1974 to 1980. I had a sabbatical and I was working on Romans 9—the book on justification of God—the odyssey basically, Romans 9. And while I was doing that, the Lord, I believe, just kept saying through the words of that chapter, “I will be proclaimed and not just analyzed.” And I couldn’t resist it after awhile. Finally, I began to ask those who knew me best, “What would you think if I left academia and took the pastorate as a preaching pastor?” And they all said, “Do it.” So, in December of 1979, I gave my resignation and started looking for a church. I said, “I’d like to spend ten years here.” Well, they said, “Ten years would be good.” And ten years went by like that. And now it’s twenty-eight. And I have no intention of going anywhere else until I’m done.

Adrian
Do you think that kind of longevity is important for a pastor?

John
It’s important, at least in volatile urban settings. In other words, where there’s a lot of change in the people, there needs to be less change in the pastoral ministry. Where the people are stable, say in a small town that has very little coming and going, the stability lies very much in the people. In an urban setting of growth, with a lot of people in and a lot of people out, there’s no stability in the people. And if it isn’t in the staff and elders, then it’s not going to be anywhere. So the degree to which there is movement among the people, it seems to me to be good. And I think it’s healthy for the pastor himself to press on in preaching in a way that doesn’t redo the same stuff over and over again. I mean, after the first five years I thought to myself, “I would not want to do this anywhere again.” I mean, those first five years are hard. You’re figuring out everything; you’re rebuilding everything. You’re trying to make some changes. And to start all that over again instead of building on it would have felt very discouraging to me.

Adrian
So for you the pull of the church was a stronger pull than the pull of Bible college or seminary?

John
Yes, oh yes. And the reason in that day was because, in the college, I felt like, year in and year out, I had the same age group (18-22). They were culturally basically the same. Their questions were, every year, the same. They always revolved around Calvinism and free will and sovereignty, and whatever. And in the church you’ve got cradle to the grave. You’ve got ethnic and cultural differences. You’ve got people all over the spiritual map on their questions. You’ve got dying and birth. You’ve got weddings and funerals. The reality of the totality of life—what that said to me was — “If this is real, if this Book is real, it will relate to all of that instead of this little slice of humanity that comes to college.” And I just wanted to see the Word of God take root in a people.

Adrian
That’s really interesting. Would you say, then, that part of your development as a pastor and as preacher is just being there in the long-term and seeing that kind of development?

John
Absolutely. I had probably preached fifteen times in my life when I came to this church. I was 34 years old and I was a teacher. I taught Sunday School. I didn’t preach around. Most of my colleagues preached on the weekend in addition to teaching. I said, “I’m not going to do that. I’m going to be with my family in church, sitting with my children at my side and my wife, listening to the Word of God every weekend, and I’ll teach a Sunday School class.” So I had done a few weddings, and I had done a few little sermons here and there. But I was an absolute green preacher when I came to Bethlehem. So all of my development as a preacher has been through these 28 years in the same pulpit.

Adrian
Okay. So, you’re a busy guy because you’re a preacher there, you preach regularly. You go to all these conferences. And I’ve noticed you almost always bring, if not a completely brand new message, at least a newly reworked version of it, perhaps slightly different . . . How do you manage to find all that time? Or is it just that you prioritize that and don’t watch too much TV?

John
I don’t watch any television. I don’t have a television.

Adrian
That’s what it is probably.

John
That certainly helps. And I have a wonderful wife who tolerates a very absent husband, even when I’m home. I ask her—I’m always taking her temperature as we do our dates on Mondays and go out. “How we doing, Noel? Do you want to make any changes?” She’s just so incredibly flexible that I married the right woman. And ever since we’ve been married, I’ve always worked, both in the day and in the evening. I’ve raised four sons, and now I’m working on one daughter. And they’re all married, and they have sons, and they’re following the Lord. So I feel some deep, deep gratification about that. But I always took from 5:30 to 7:00, and that was their time. I ate with them and then we had play time. We were kicking the ball around in the backyard or we were building towers and knocking ‘em down — this is your time. And I went to all their ballgames. A pastor has his own time. He can do whatever he wants. So 3:30 in the afternoon, while other guys are working, I’m banging my fists at the soccer match, or you’d call it football, to make my son, Benjamin, run faster . . .

Adrian
You played soccer?

John
I didn’t — I watched it.

Adrian
But, no, still, I mean . . .

John
Oh, I love it. We try, we try! (Laughing.)

Adrian
You have David Beckham now, of course.

John
Well, he did score a goal the other day. I think it was headlines. One goal out of this billion dollar deal. So . . . where were we?

Adrian
We were talking about football playing . . . you were just talking about all the time . . . .

John
Oh, the time to do things, yeah. The point was that even though I work in the evenings (at 7:00 I’m back in my study or with a book in my hand or at some meeting) and Noel is doing her handwork, or working on her projects, and I’m working away. But, really, the key is — I’ve been in the church long enough that they let me do what I want to do. And we’ve got such diversification staffing, that I’m the preacher guy. They want me to feed this flock on the weekend, and they want me to provide vision for the staff. That’s my title — Pastor of Preaching and Vision. I’m here in Wales, and I’ll be back to preach next Sunday, and most of them won’t even know I was gone.

Adrian
Yeah, sure. You write books. What would be the three books that you’ve written that would be your most important books, in your opinion? Three most important books you’ve written, or three significant . . .

John
I will be interested to watch from heaven to see what the answer to that question will prove to be, because I don’t think my answer really has any authority. I don’t know. Don Carson told me he thought Pleasures of God was the most important thing I’ve done, so I think I would put that in the top three. I’m going to put Desiring God there just because it’s the seminal book from which everything else flowed. And after those two, God’s Passion for His Glory maybe. That’s my [Jonathan] Edwards—Edwards is half of that and I’m half of that. And because Edwards is so important, and that essay, The End for Which God Created the World, is so absolutely foundational to everything I do and what I think, that may be the other one.

Adrian
Great. Well look, thanks very much for joining us, John. It’s just been wonderful to have a few moments here just to pick your brains . . .

John
Yeah. I wish we had more time. Thank you very much!

Adrian
God bless.

Yesterday, in the second part of my interview with John Piper, he talked about passionate preaching. Today, John talks about prayer and Bible study, and in particular, his personal "rhythm" for this important discipline. The video of this part of the interview can be seen here.


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Adrian
So, what you’ve described — I suspect there may be many preachers out there saying, “Okay, I get what you’re saying, but how do I get to that place?” You mentioned prayer. I know prayer is important to you. You often talk about prayer in your books. Could you talk a little bit about what your own prayer life looks like? How you get, if you like, connected to God in that way you’re describing?

John
I’ll try without disobeying the Lord’s injunction in the Sermon on the Mount to go into your closet . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
I surely am not a model to hold up for prayer because I have models and I fall short of them. But, my life is a combination of private prayer, family prayer, corporate prayer at church—it’s a rhythm of those things. I try to be with the Lord every morning for an hour or so. The way it works for me is mingling together Word and prayer. I don’t read the Bible for twenty minutes and pray for twenty minutes, or forty and forty, whatever. It’s in and out and in and out. I learned that basically from George Mueller, who said he made the big mistake in his early Christian life of trying to pray for an extended period of time, and his mind inevitably went everywhere except toward the Lord, so he began by whispering up a one minute prayer for help, and then he took the Word and turned everything he’d read into prayer. He said I laid sixty things before the Lord this morning, and I laid them through the Word. And that’s pretty much the way I go about it.

When it comes to praying for things, besides what’s in the text, I pray in concentric circles. The most needy person I know is me. Therefore I pray about me first, because if I can’t be fixed, I won’t fix anybody. I won’t bless my wife or children or the Church. So I pray about this soul and my passion for God here, and then I move out to my wife and my children. I pray for them about whatever was in the text. Then I move out to my elders and my staff, and I name all the staff every day and our elders. And then I move out to the church, and move out to the city, and the nations. That’s the way I pray. And that can fill up a lot of time as God brings different things. I use helps. I have lists. I have lists of the names because I can’t even remember the names of 34 elders sometimes, and I have to say those. And then I use things like Operation World to pray for the nations. I keep it on my computer. I keep it in the book beside my old prayer bench at home.

By the way, I have a place of prayer. In my study there’s a little corner with a built wall, like this—it’s got a bench, it’s got books, it’s got a Bible. So I can kneel, it’s got a little rug. In 1975, so it’s now thirty-two years ago, I realized when I finished graduate school and owned my first home that this home should have a prayer place in it because otherwise, I think if you don’t have a place that’s designated that’s relatively secure, you tend to kind of sit on the couch, cross your legs, put some coffee beside you, and go to sleep, and call it prayer time. You don’t tend to do that if you have a place that’s just set aside for prayer.

Then there’s the family—my wife and I and my daughter—pray and have devotions in the morning. And then we do it in the evening. And then my wife and I pray before we go to bed at night, and read a little devotional called “Daily Life.” So that’s the rhythm—morning, evening, wife.

And then there are eight prayer meetings at our church, and I go to four of them plus the staff prayer meeting. They are thirty minute prayer meetings. That’s all they all. We don’t talk at all. We just sit down—bang! We start praying, and bang! Thirty minutes later we stop and go our separate ways. It’s very . . . and that way they last. I’ve been to one of these prayer meetings for probably over twenty years. The Friday morning 6:30 prayer meeting has been going on for twenty years and I hardly ever miss it, except when I’m on vacation, and there’s absolutely zero conversation, zero nonsense. It’s just you’re there; it’s 6:30, let us pray! It’s 7:00—bang! We’re done! Everybody disappears. And it’s really precious! It’s powerful!

So, those are my rhythms, personal, family, corporate, and lots of others sprinkled in. Paul said, “Pray without ceasing,” so I’m always crying for help. So, “Right now, Lord, help me in this interview!”

Adrian
(Laughing) Yeah! You and me both! So, you pray. Obviously you study the Word. And I suspect most of what you do is fairly standard on that. But do you have any particular hints about how to study the Bible that would help people maybe?

John
H-m-m-m. I’m not a good example there either. My life has kind of been taken out of my control in the last years. I feel like I’m governed by what other people want from me, pretty much, than what I want to do sometimes.

A combination of three things, I would think, is what a pastor would want. One is general reading. And there—what can you say? There’s a billion things to read. You let your own heart and good recommenders, good bloggers, tell you what’s good. And then you don’t waste your time reading what’s bad. Somebody else better read it first. Don’t read it first. And probably you should read something that’s 200 years old, 300 years old, because the new stuff is here today and gone tomorrow by and large. So READING.

Secondly, some more or less systematic way of growing in your knowledge of Scripture. The Bible says, “Grow in the knowledge of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,” so some regular reading and rigorous effort to broaden your understanding of the scope of Scripture.

The third is preparation for what you do. That’s where most of my effort is right now. I languish in the other two and I flourish here. I don’t begrudge myself that too much because what I have found (and this might be encouraging to any of the younger guys pondering what they’re going to do with their lives)—when I left academia—six years of teaching Bible college to do pastoral ministry, I thought, “I’m giving up all my summers (teachers have all their summers to study and write), I’m giving up a small amount of teaching and a large amount of writing opportunities—I’m giving that up for a life of pressure, and administration, and crises, and crunch, and just normal pastoral labors, so will I languish in my ability to see Scripture?”

Continued in part 4 . . .

Yesterday we began sharing the transcript of my interview with John Piper at New Word Alive. Today we continue with John Piper talking about passionate preaching. The video of today's segment can be seen here.

Adrian
People do talk about you, John, as having a real sort of passion about you. It’s almost like a zeal, I guess. In fact, particularly when you’re preaching, I certainly experience that, having actually only heard you for the first time in the flesh last night, and so many people afterwards were saying the same thing. I was just blown away by the passion, and also by a sense of the presence of God that you brought when you were preaching. I guess that’s probably the best way of describing it. Is that something that you’re aware of in some way for yourself? Is that something you can explain a bit as to why you feel that other people experience that? Is it something you feel yourself when you’re preaching as well? How did that come about? Because I know, for example, that Lig Duncan said that when he heard you preach at Together for the Gospel, he felt, “Boy, I’ve never preached before. I’ve never done it.” So what is it about you? Is there something special about you? Do you have some kind of secret you can share with the rest of us?

John
I don’t usually feel that way when I’m done preaching, okay? I talked to Don Carson one time, and I regard Don as a very effective communicator and a brilliant person. He mentioned to me that he regularly walks away from his events feeling that he’s blown it, which made me feel better, because I don’t think you can ever quite know what God’s doing. At the times that I have felt bleakest about the way I did what I was supposed to do, others have testified to being helped. And the times I felt liberated, free, engaged — Did anything happen in them rather than just in me? So, I’m very suspicious about the way I feel about my preaching. I doubt myself regularly that my assessment of what just happened is accurate. Which helps me and hurts me. It means I never feel very excited about what I’ve just done, and it means I don’t fall out the bottom because I say, “Well, God can do what he wants to do. You know, Balaam’s ass can accomplish what he wants, so he might use that, even though I felt terrible about it. So I’m a lousy judge when it comes to saying, “Was there a presence of God, or was there an anointing, or was there an effect?”

I just know that what I want is the gift of self-forgetfulness in what I would call a full engagement, a full passion, a full zeal with what’s there in the text, and the reality of God in and through the text. I want to see him, and know him, be engaged by him, be thrilled by him, say it with whatever effectiveness I can, and let the chips fall where they will. And that, as far as my own subjective awareness goes, that rises and falls. One Sunday I feel thrilled. I feel met. I feel carried. I feel helped. And others I don’t. But that doesn’t correlate necessarily with what God is doing in the people out there. So, to me, an effective, experienced sermon would be when I forget myself. I’m not thinking, “Oh, I’m doing well here,” or “I’m doing badly here,” or “That was an effective comment,” — anything like that ruins it for me. The gift is when you’re not outside yourself watching yourself. You’re so here—you’re so here that you’re not at all conscious—there’s no two of you, there’s just one of you, and God and the people, and a transaction is happening that’s a miracle. Because you can’t choose to forget yourself. The act of choosing to forget yourself is self-awareness. So it’s a gift. It’s a phenomenal precious gift in the moment. You pray for it ahead of time, and it may come for twenty minutes and then you lose it for ten, and you’re thinking about your hands, and you’re thinking about your notes, and you’re thinking about the faces out there, and it’s all discombobulated, and then it may be taken away in the moment, and you’re free to . . . you go, and you wake up ten minutes later and — What was THAT? You know? That was free!! So that’s what I’m after.

I think there are ways to cultivate what I’m talking about. It basically is cultivating God-centeredness. It’s cultivating prayer. It’s cultivating a serious engagement with the Word. It’s cultivating asking certain kinds of God-centered, Christ-exalting questions. There’s a focus and a preoccupation. And then my root Christian hedonism, I mean, my root philosophy of life — whether you are satisfied in God really does make a difference as to whether you can glorify God! That’s a huge thing! It’s a theoretical construct that I think is in the Bible, but it has a practical effect because I really believe that if you’re not passionate about God, you won’t glorify him as much. If you’re more passionate about football than God, you glorify football. If you’re more passionate about food or cooking or sex or money or work or the stock market than you are about God, then that’s what gets glorified. God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. That construct of reality has an effect on how you pray about your life and how you live you life.

Continued in part 3 . . .

Yesterday was Friday and therefore it was the day that we usually turn to Piper. I have not forgotten that tradition, nor, incidentally, have I forgotten Lloyd-Jones Monday—it's just that there has been a lot of other material to get out there, and I haven't wanted to do more than a post a day at the moment.

I actually have another project which I'm currently working on, and which I plan on telling you about in a few weeks or so. Believe it or not, thanks to spending some time planning and writing ahead, and also to the efforts of my transcriptionist and editor, Annette, this past few weeks have actually been quite light blogging work for me. Please pray for me that God would grant me unusual grace, inspiration, and self-discipline at this time.

Anyway, today I thought we would share the transcript of the first video segment from my New Word Alive interview with John Piper. The video can be seen at Piper on New Word Alive and Spring Harvest.


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Adrian
Hi! My name is Adrian Warnock and I’m here with John Piper. We’re here at New Word Alive. I can’t say the name of the town [Pwllheli], but it’s in North Wales in the UK, about six hours away from London. John has very kindly agreed to be interviewed here. But he’s also specifically asked that we would pray together before we start. So, John, let’s just share a word of prayer, shall we?

John
Father, we lean on you for words that would come to our mind that might be helpful or useful to other folks. So, for the sake of your name and for the good of others, we ask that you would cause us not to go down any rabbit trails that would be unhelpful, to waste our time, or spin our wheels. And we ask that you would guard us from error or pride or anything that would be dishonoring to Jesus or harmful to the Church. And so draw us into a conversation that will be edifying, I pray, and an honor to the Lord Jesus. We ask this is his name. Amen.

Adrian
Amen. Well, thanks for joining us, John.

John
My pleasure.

Adrian
Really, the whole purpose of these interviews is to try and get a bit of a glimpse of the man behind the preacher, as it were. So just to start with, I’d love to know how you came to the decision to be here. There seems to be a lot of you Americans coming over here—you’re here, Don Carson is here in the UK today at this conference as well, and later in the year Mark Driscoll’s going to be at a conference in Brighton [as well as some meetings in London]. Why do you guys keep coming?

John
There’s a narrow and a broader answer to that. Let’s go from the broader to the narrow. The broader answer would be—when I was here doing my sabbatical at Tyndale House in Cambridge, I got to know the folks who did the book, Pierced for Our Transgressions.

Adrian
Oh, yes!

John
They asked me to do the forward for it. And that got us into a conversation about the larger evangelical situation in Britain, and for whatever reason, I found myself very very akin to their cause in upholding the penal substitution of Christ—his work on the cross in our place as precious beyond words. I don’t know why, but they thought that my support would be helpful. Why that is—I’m just an ordinary American pastor and nobody over here knows me, I thought—so what’s the deal with doing the forward for this book or whatever? And I discovered that evidently my voice has (and this is ironic to say it here) I thought it had, up to this point, a kind of unifying effect because I’m contaminated with charismatic influence . . .

Adrian
(Laughing) I like that . . . !!

John
. . . and I’m reformed to the core—like I say I’m a seven-point Calvinist—that sort of thing. And so that’s an unusual combination. So I’ve been to the Leister Conference with the Banner of Truth books, I’ve been to the Brighton Conference with what, Newfrontiers?

Adrian
Yes, that’s right.

John
And I’ve been to FIEC, and I’ve been here now, and that seems to be broad. So evidently my role is to function as a kind of voice that can attract a broad array of evangelicals. [Ed: Piper has also spoken for the Proclamation Trust and other UCCF events.]

So that’s the bigger reason. I like serving that purpose, so if I can serve that purpose, I’ll come over. I didn’t know that, but I’m told that, and I’m pleased to help draw exegetically serious, Bible, gospel people, whether charismatic or not, together. I think that’s a wonderful calling. So that’s one.

The narrow one is that this event was born out of a tension at Spring Harvest over the whole issue of the nature of the atonement, and I think the place that this conference, New Word Alive, came down on—what Christ achieved for us and how he achieved it in bearing God’s wrath, absorbing it fully, removing it, propitiating it. That historic, traditional vision of what Christ did is exactly right and precious. So, when I was asked, “Would you come help us get this started?”—that question wouldn’t have made any sense to me without the broader piece, but given what I was being told about my voice, I thought, “Well, okay. If you think I can help, I’ll be happy to help, because I believe in the cause.” So those two things coming together—the broader function of my voice kind of spanning certain tensions in Britain, and this issue in particular—made this a very attractive event to me.

Adrian
Okay. Well, it’s been great to have you. What’s your impression of the event as a speaker, and also as a participant?

John
Well, I’ve only spoken once, and then I’ve attended one thing ahead of time, too. The responsiveness of the folks has been positive. Now I have to measure my words because British folks (laughter) are less responsive than what I’m used to!!

Adrian
Are you talking about the stiff upper lip here?

John
I don’t know what I’m . . . I don’t know what it is, but I mean, I’m looking around in here during that kind of worship and I’m expecting a great deal more engagement than I’m getting, so I just kind of adjust my expectations to the kind of human being I’m dealing with (Adrian laughing), and if I’m at a more, you know, lively place, I’ll expect that. Here I’m pleased to settle in with my expectations kind of in the middle, and it’s been good!

Adrian
I think it’s partly a cultural thing.

John
Oh, it’s absolutely cultural, there’s no doubt that it’s cultural. That’s what it is!

Adrian
Yeah, because I guess some people are more or less expressive in worship based on who they are.

John
Exactly. It’s partly genetic, partly cultural, partly religious and convictional.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

John
So those three factors together make you who you are. We’ll all that way.

Continued in part 2 . . .

This is the second part of a two-part interview with Don Carson, which began yesterday. That segment can be read here. I previously shared the video of this interview here.

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Adrian
So obviously from your own story, and also in your current role, you must have seen lots of people come through that path. Do you have any thoughts about how the Church can best develop its future leaders, or how, indeed, those people who might be beginning to feel similar stirrings to you, all those years ago—how do we turn somebody who is keen on God’s Word and might show some potential into a future preacher or future leader?

Don
It’s hard to answer that in just a few sentences. 2 Timothy 2:2 insists that senior people ought to be looking for junior people who will prove faithful in passing on the gospel yet one more round. And that means inevitably that they should not only challenge them as to what they are going to do with their lives, but provide them some venue for service, some test of gifts, some beginning ministry, supervise them, mentor them, challenge them. Not just say to them, “Go and give a talk here,” but work on the talk with them, listen to it, offer critique, make sure they are growing, give them things to read, put them in situations where they’re outside their comfort zone and have to bear witness to this sort of thing, see if they grow and are flourishing spiritually and mentally. And then with time, discerning people will begin to see if there really is potential there, and the individual himself may begin to see this as part of God’s gifting and calling. I do think we ought to be more proactive in tapping people, while still recognizing that finally the thing must be confirmed by God himself. Yet, nevertheless, if 2 Timothy 2 means what it says it means, then it seems to me we ought to be a little more proactive than we have sometimes been.

Adrian
Yeah, I guess that’s right. It’s interesting that so far you haven’t mentioned seminary at all in that. Do you see that as more “down the line” then? That it’s not just a question of pick someone, send them off to Bible college, and you’ve got an instant Church leader then?

Don
Well, a seminary can’t guarantee that. A seminary can contribute very powerfully some of the components that are there. As I said earlier, there are not many local churches that can give you a really good grounding in Church history, Greek and Hebrew, good exegesis, disciplined reading of the text, and so on. Not many. And the accumulation of a good number of former pastors and missionaries and so [forth] on one campus—you can pick their brains in all of these areas. That’s got to be really important. But some of it is learned on the street. In the Anglican system, that works out in curacies and so on, and ideally it works out in the independent system with assistant pastorates and so on. But even before they go, ideally they should have some exposure, some testing. And that might work through being a staff worker at UCCF or it might be in the context of a local church. But by and large, I’m not too keen on someone working, let’s say, in computer science flat out, and suddenly saying, “I’m called of God. Let’s go.” It’s usually a little more complicated than that.

Adrian
Right.

Don
And ideally, there needs to be at least some testing and growth within the context of a disciplined mentored ministry first.

Adrian
Yes, okay. Is there anything that you think that guys like you can do to help those pastors who, for whatever reason, haven’t been educated at a Bible college, and now they’re right in the midst of preaching every week. How do you see that? I know it’s difficult sometimes to say, “All right church, I’m off!”

Don
Yeah. There’s no automatic formula. There are some people who are so gifted by God that they can be self-taught and do an excellent job. Who is going to throw stones at a Martyn Lloyd-Jones? But it would also be wrong to think that Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the typical person. There are a vast majority of ordinary ministers who are going to do a lot better if they can have some time for disciplined study. But, on the other hand, if the force of circumstances makes that sort of thing impossible for fiscal or other reasons, then there are a lot of things that can be done. For a start, the English language, above all languages on the earth, is blessed by resources—books, magazines, both in print and now increasingly on the Net—the resources are fantastic actually. So what you need ultimately is some mentor or guide to steer you into the right sort of list, the right sort of priorities—You read this, then you read that, and then you read something else, and so on—and that, of course, was what Wesley did with his young men. He had a list of fifty books that he expected all of his trainee preachers to read and so on.

Adrian
Do you have a list like that yourself?

Don
I don’t have a personal list, but I’ve often created them for individuals in particular circumstances.

Adrian
You prefer to . . .

Don
To custom make it in some ways. But, increasingly, there are often courses online, too, and maybe weekend or night school courses that are available in a place that’s within driving distance. There are a lot of different patterns that are available today in one fashion or another.

Adrian
Sure.

Don
So, for those who are willing to be disciplined enough to take the time and really work at things, setting aside a day a week, or a day and a half a week, for something other than preparation for the next talk and visitation and all of that. Yeah, it’s possible to get quite a lot of upgrading in the context of your own study.

Adrian
Right, excellent. And I guess, even a conference like this is helpful to somebody to come and be exposed to teachers a bit more than they perhaps would in their local church.

Don
It’s part of it. There is a danger at these conferences. You hear a man with a gift of a John Piper, and you will inevitably come away blessed, and you’ve met with God, and that’s a great thing. But on the other hand, most of us are not going to be John Pipers. So it’s also possible to come away feeling a wee bit, in some sense, discouraged or threatened, or “I can never do that!” So it’s important to get the right thing from these conferences. At conferences, in the big marquees, the ordinary pastor does not normally have a voice. And I think that it is important to learn faithfulness in ministry, fully recognizing that most of us will be ordinary pastors . . .

Adrian
Very good!

Don
. . . and learn to be faithful in that frame of reference. Which, of course, is why I wrote the book on my dad. It wasn’t that I was trying to write a big critical biography. It’s not that. Get the right priorities, the foundations, in terms of faithfulness, what ministry means, what discouragement looks like, what suffering looks like, and so on, and the joy of the Lord within that matrix, or else you will have a romantic view of the ministry that is almost certainly going to lead to discouragement.

Adrian
I guess also there’s a lot of people here as well who will never be ministers.

Don
Yes, of course.

Adrian
What would you say to them?

Don
Well, in an event like this, it’s just like a different question in terms of training. At a place like this, the people are going to get somewhat different things out of it. The huge number of students are being exposed to teaching, Bible training, their own student tracks, and the encouragement of meeting with a whole lot of other students, and so on. Some come from small CUs, and just to have a thousand students together is itself a huge blessing. And some come from really small churches likewise, where to have about three or four thousand people singing at the same time and hearing the Word of God—all of that is itself a great encouragement. So there’s not only the content, there’s the sense that “This is the Church of the living God.” And God is calling out his people. They’re not to be discouraged. These are the foundations. This is right. And rejoicing in God in all of his context. It can be an enormous encouragement and anchor, and even vision for what could be for the future. For all of those things, too, we need to be thankful to God.

Adrian
Yes. So, for anyone who is watching this on the Net thinking, “Should I come to New Word Alive next year?” — what would you say to them?

Don
Well, I’m not a very good salesman. What I would say is that if you want to have a serious week of serious Bible teaching that is, nevertheless, full of corporate worship and meeting of new friends and an opportunity to pull aside and read and think, as well as listen and study and learn, I’m sure this would be a week well spent.

Adrian
Thanks very much for your time, Don. I know you’ve got to prepare for the next talk. Thank you for joining us.

Don
My privilege. Blessings on you.

I had the great privilege of talking to Don Carson in April at the New Word Alive Conference, when this interview was recorded. I have already shared the video of the interview here.

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Adrian
Hi! I’m Adrian Warnock. I blog at http://adrianwarnock.com/. and I’m also privileged to serve as part of the leadership team of Jubilee Church in London. I’m here at New Word Alive, together with Don Carson, who has kindly agreed to answer a few of my questions. Thank you for joining us, Don.

Don
My privilege.

Adrian
Excellent. So, Don, you’re obviously a busy man. You do all kinds of things—write books and lecture, and all the various things you do—and yet you, and John Piper, and later this year, Mark Driscoll, all sorts of American guys keep coming over here. Why do you think that is? Why do you come?

Don
The Church of Christ is world-wide at the end of the day, and partly because of Trinity’s reach, we serve many countries, and partly because of my own roots over here (I lived here for nine years, my wife is English), and partly because there is a camaraderie in the ministry itself. Not only do we come here, but there are a number of Brits who come to where we are, and then we might even meet up in Kuala Lumpur. That’s the way the Church is, increasingly. There’s a global reach, and we lean on each other, gain support from each other, and try to bring glory to Christ in different ways in different parts of the world.

Adrian
Fantastic. Well, we’re certainly glad you’re here. I have very much enjoyed listening to your talks. What’s your impression of the conference as a whole?

Don
The buzz I’m hearing (but I’m the outsider) is that people are really grateful for the Bible teaching, not only in the big sessions, but also in a lot of the seminars and so on. After John’s material last night, for example, on suffering, there was one woman in a wheelchair who said that she had found this one of the most encouraging things she had ever heard in her life, and the whole conference is worth it just for her, isn’t it?

Adrian
Yes!

Don
And then when you realize there are five thousand people who are receiving blessings from God from his Word in one way or another, it’s something for which to be incalculably grateful.

Adrian
Yes. I guess there’s no real substitute for gathering people to hear God’s Word, is there really?

Don
That’s right. That’s right.

Adrian
Whatever context it’s in. And it’s interesting because I’ve just been talking to John, who obviously gave up theological life to become a pastor. And I guess you’ve devoted your life to training pastors. Is that a fair way of describing it?

Don
Yes. I started off in pastoral ministry. He started off with theological . . .

Adrian
So you did it the other way around?

Don
I went the other way around. And there are dark moments when I wish I hadn’t. But you can’t second guess either yourself or God all the time. It’s not right. But about fifteen years ago I almost left Trinity to go to a church. It was a church near a major university and I wanted to do the sort of thing that John is doing. I had two or three senior men in the ministry, both already at that time in their early 70’s, descend on me and tell me in very authoritarian terms that I just must not do it because they were afraid that if I did I wouldn’t reserve enough time to do some of the writing I was doing.

Now whether that’s right or not, I don’t know. You offer yourself up to God and try to do what’s right. But I would say that the front line is the local church. And there is a sense in which seminary is a back-up slot. The front line is the local church, and the first impetus towards ministry and towards stamping people for what ministry ought to be should be within in the context of the local church. And then a good seminary, a good theological college, helps to provide the kind of training and further exposure to more technical knowledge, a grasp of the languages, and this sort of thing. Virtually no local church can provide that, and yet it’s really important for those who teach in such places, nevertheless, to be pastors first, because if they think of themselves of teachers and scholars first, then they tend to produce teachers and scholars. So there’s a stamping, not simply from the course material, but from your own values, what you dream about, what you think about. So, at our seminary, we always want to hire a certain percentage of faculty who wish they were in the pastoral ministry, or else quite frankly, we don’t want them. Now, they have to be academically competent and all the rest, but we don’t want people who just want to be in a seminary. We want people who in many ways would prefer to be in the local church. So, that’s as close as I can come to explaining where I’m at.

Adrian
Oh, that’s good. So, of all the many books that you’ve written, Don—this is again a question I asked John about his books—but of all the books that you’ve written, what would you say would be the most important two or three books—the ones that perhaps people should start with reading, let’s say?

Don
I have no idea how to answer that because people find books are important for different reasons. So for some people working through the front end of post-modernism, the 1996 book or whatever date it was, The Gagging of God, they found very helpful at the time. On the other hand, widely read by pastors was my John commentary, for example. I just don’t know how to answer that sort of question.

Adrian
I guess it’s what fits that person.

Don
That’s right. And as you say—What should they read first? Well, an awful lot depends on who they are. If they’re a lay person, [they] might start off with a book like Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount or something like that. I just don’t have a formulated answer for that. For pastors today who are in small churches and sometimes feel discouraged and wonder if their life is worth it, what I’d now recommend is the one that came out just a month or two ago called Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor. It’s short—only 160 pages— and it’s really on my dad. He was a quintessential, ordinary pastor in many ways. He never preached in another country. He never wrote a book. He was never a conference speaker or the like. Most of the congregations most of his life were 30 people. But he exemplified faithfulness in some pretty grueling circumstances. He nursed my mother through the Alzheimer’s years. He was a church planter cross-culturally moving from the English to the French side of Canada, and had a passion for faithfulness in all kinds of small ways. Yeah, it’s not so much a critical history as a collection of our memories of him and a lot of his diary entries and so on as he struggled with these kinds of things and tried to be faithful in small corners.

Adrian
I’m guessing that he was probably one of the main influences on you growing up and into ministry, was he?

Don
Not directly. When I left home I had no intention of going into the ministry. In some ways I was closer to my mother. Nevertheless, his pattern certainly has stamped me. But I started off in chemistry and mathematics. I had no intention of going into the ministry. That came about by other things. But, undoubtedly, in all kinds of subliminal ways I scarcely recognized, his pattern has affected me. But it wasn’t a kind of direct thing—“Oh, I want to be like Dad!” sort of thing. It wasn’t that at all.

Adrian
So who did influence you most to make that kind of jump from chemistry to theology?

Don
That wasn’t a single step either. I worked in a research lab in Ottawa for the federal government in air pollution. I discovered that the people in this lab—I had a good budget, I had a good project, I enjoyed what I was doing—but most of the people in the lab were either resenting it and waiting for retirement or, alternatively, chemistry was their god. And I didn’t fit in either camp. I was enjoying it, but at the same time another chap and I were trying to start a Sunday School in a new church in the upper valley, and that became more and more important to me as time went on. I remember a chorus that I learned as a boy playing out in my mind again and again:

By and by, when I look on his face,
Beautiful face, thorn-shadowed face;
By and by, when I look on his face,
I will wish I had given him more.

And in that autumn, I heard a sermon from a man—I think I’ve only ever heard him preach two or three times—a sermon on Ezekiel 22, where God says, “I sought for man to stand in the gap before me for my people, but I found none.” And God used that in a powerful way in my life so that I wanted to cry with my whole being, “Here am I, send me!” But none of that was planned.

Another earlier step was the minister of the church I was [attending] in Montreal said that he wanted me to be his assistant one summer. And I said he had confused me with a theological student—I was chemistry. I never did go and do it, but it was the first time I started thinking about it because some minister had tapped me on the shoulder and said I ought to be thinking about it. So there were many different things that God used providentially to woo me away from chemistry and science and towards vocational ministry.

Continued in part 2 . . .

In this final segment of my interview with Ed Stetzer, we speak about contextualization of the gospel and how to build truly multicultural churches.

The previous parts of this interview can be viewed here:

• Ed Stetzer—Warnie Award and Interview: What Does Missional Mean?
  
  
• Ed Stetzer on Church Planting
  
  
• Ed Stetzer Interview: Is Missional and Apostolic the Same Thing?
  
  
• Ed Stetzer Interview: How Can We All Be Missional?
  
  
• Ed Stetzer Interview: The Atonement and the Church Today
  
  
• Ed Stetzer Interview: Churches We Can Learn From
  
  
• Ed Stetzer Interview: Missional Preaching

In this section of our interview I begin by asking Ed if he thinks there is a particular type of preaching that is missional.

Today, we move on to speak about the atonement controversy and the state of the Church today.

In this segment of our interview we speak about how we can all become missional. This is a subject Ed takes up further in his new book, Compelled by Love: The Most Excellent Way to Missional Living.

As we continue, I cheekily asked Ed if he thinks missional and apostolic are synonymous. Interestingly, the word missionary is the Latin word used in the vulgate Bible to translate apostle from the Greek.

In the second part of this interview with Ed Stetzer we turned our attention to discussing church planting.

The following interview was recorded using iChat and, as I claim at the beginning, I don't believe you can achieve this kind of good quality with a PC over normal broadband lines across the Atlantic, at least as far as I know.

Ed, still being computer-challenged (i.e. he actually uses a Microsoft windoze machine!) therefore had to borrow a friend's Mac for this. As far as I'm aware, this is the first Christian iChat interview recorded and then shared online. If anyone knows of someone who has beat me to it, do let me know and I will correct my mistake here. To record, I used a program called Screen Flow, which actually does what it says it will do on the tin!

Oddly enough, I sat on a plane recently with someone who said he did this all the time for his leading video blog about technology, so I don't think it's the first time it has ever been done for a blog—just for a Christian one. Here, then, is part 1. You know the drill by now—more to come tomorrow. In fact, although each segment is short, there are quite a few coming, so sit back, make yourself a coffee or tea, and enjoy!

For more information about Ed, see EdStetzer.com, which is a fantastic blog to which I've just awarded a Warnie. Ed has also recently brought out a new book, which looks quite interesting.

In this, the fifth and final segment of my interview with Nathan Fellingham, we talk about what the future holds for Phatfish and for Lou Fellingham. The four previous segments can be found here:

• Phatfish's Nathan Fellingham
  
  
• Nathan Fellingham on Writing Songs for Worship
  
  
• Nathan Fellingham on the Theology of Worship Songs
  
  
• Nathan Fellingham on New Word Alive and Being a Reformed Charismatic

Adrian
So, where next for the Fellinghams, Phatfish, and everything else you’re involved in? I know you’ve got a few projects that are about to come online, I think.

Nathan
Yeah. There’s a few things really. The Guaranteed album is the latest Phatfish has put out, which we’re really excited about. It’s getting on—it’s nine months old now.

Adrian
Where can people get a hold of that?

Nathan
At the Phatfish website.

Adrian
I don’t think that one is on iTunes, is it?

Nathan
It’s not on iTunes, I don’t think, but you can order it from the site.

Adrian
What’s the URL?

Nathan
www.phatfish.net The other thing is, Lou . . .

Adrian
Can they order that from the US and get it shipped over? That kind of thing?

Nathan
Yes, you can certainly buy it on our website, but you pay through the nose a little bit if you’re paying in dollars at the moment. But we are working, hopefully, on new ways to get stuff over into the US.

The other thing is, Lou, my wife, she did a solo project a couple of years ago called Treasure. And she’s just recorded a new album called Promised Land, which will be out on May 23rd. (Editor's Note: It is now available for purchase online.)

And I’m starting something called Fishtank Creatives, which is going to be—essentially all that is is a name to cover these different things that we do. So, we’re out sometimes as Phatfish, sometimes as Lou Fellingham, Lou Fellingham Band, whatever. Sometimes it’s Stuart Townend’s Worship Band—you know. All these different things—it’s all us. It’s all the same heart, just slightly different expressions of different songs. So Fishtank Creatives created this design to kind of cover that whole thing.

Actually, just a little plug. In May, we’re going to be doing an iPod Touch giveaway. So go onto the phatfish.net or fishtankcreatives.com from May 1st onward, you’ll be able to enter a competition and get an iPod Touch with all of our albums, Lou’s new album, and videos—everything will be on that. And we’re going to be giving it away to whoever we draw out of the hat after they have answered the question correctly. So, there’s a little plug for that. (Editor's Note: Because of technical delays with the site, they're not quite ready, but hopefully they will be in the next several weeks, probably after July 1st.)

Adrian
Fantastic. I’ll head straight over there, I’m sure. Well, is there anything else? I think you do some worship training or something, don’t you? Is that coming up again?

Nathan
Yeah, we do. At Church of Christ the King (CCK), we’re going to be starting a worship school again in October. We have a “Working as a Band” CD. It’s like a very practical CD just on the subject of how a contemporary band can put worship songs together. It’s just some great, sort of basic, kind of practical stuff actually that can be very helpful for worship teams. You asked about “Working as a Band”—you can get that from phatfish.net as well. I think we’re going to be developing stuff in the months and years to come with worship training and what we’re doing at CCK, at the church. Yeah. There’s all sorts of stuff going on, definitely, so God’s doing some good stuff and we’re excited.

Adrian
Yeah. Thanks so much. I must say that I want to personally thank you for all that you do for the kingdom. Thanks for taking time out of your busy week this week.

Nathan
It’s been a pleasure.

In yesterday's segment Nathan and I discussed the importance of theology in worship songs. Today we move on to talk a little about the event we were both attending and his thoughts on being a reformed charismatic.

Adrian
We’re here at this New Word Alive event, and obviously have heard all sorts of teaching from some of these big names like John Piper, Don Carson, and others. I don’t know how much of it you’ve been able to get into with everything else you’re doing. Have you been in many of the sessions?

Nathan
Yeah. I’ve gone to all of Don Carson’s morning Bible readings so far, which I think have just been astounding—really, really good. Don’t ask me anything about it, but . . .

Adrian
No, no. I suppose what I was thinking—what I was going to ask you actually—when you come here from the context in Brighton, a lot of people think of charismatics as being kind of airheads. Are you coming here and thinking this is just totally alien to what we’re used to, or are you thinking, “Yeah, We’re learning stuff, but this is very consistent with our heart and where we’re at?” Where we’re from?"

Nathan
Yeah, I think theologically it feels very much in sync with where we’re at. I think in terms of people’s expressions of worship, I think it does feel a lot more conservative to what we’re used to. So, yeah, I think I would love for, in some ways, to be able to bring some fresh expression to the worship in a place like this. And Stuart’s the ideal guy for leading worship. Because of the songs that he writes, people warm to him very quickly, but he can also push things out a little bit and take people further on. That’s probably the biggest thing really—just how people express their worship. Obviously, people can express it in different ways, but there are some pretty strong words in the Psalms about exhorting us to praise and knowing a little bit about how the Hebrew people would have done that, with a lot of body movements and a lot of excitement. Obviously cultures are different, but I think there’s something in praising in a very kind of vocal and “full of energy” way that just seems right to me.

Adrian
Yeah, I guess so as well. I mean, the thing I’m feeling is that the people here are really deeply in love with Jesus, but maybe they express it in a slightly different way. Were you picking that up as well in the worship? I really felt like, in your gig for example, as the gig went on you could see that people were warming up and getting into it, and actually in their hearts, they were really really enjoying it.

Nathan
Yeah, I think so. We certainly feel very at home here. The feel of the site proved great.

Adrian
There’s no one swinging from the rafters yet, is there?

Nathan
No. That’s right, that’s right.

Adrian
Was it not “swinging from the chandeliers?”

Nathan
Yeah, yeah. No, there’s none of that! (Laughter) But, yeah, we don't feel at odds with anyone here, so it’s great.

Adrian
It’s actually really exciting to see in this event a marrying of the charismatics like us—nutters like you and me—and people who are not really from that background at all. To see everybody here together, respecting each other in that way, is quite cool.

Nathan
Yes, it’s wonderful. Yeah, very good, very good.

Adrian
Just a little bit about the whole charismatic thing. You seem to be quite unusual, to some people anyway. I mean, I’ve grown up with it and it’s quite normal for me, I guess, but this notion that we want to marry reformed theology with a sort of vibrant experience of the Holy Spirit. Do you want to talk more about what that means to you as an individual and to the band?

Nathan
Sure. Again, I think that Terry Virgo’s distinctive really is that he is reformed theology, but very charismatic. I know that’s what people always say about him. And in a sense, it’s Terry’s church, and groups of churches that I’ve grown up with. So, in some ways you only begin to learn what you are by hearing other people say it. “Oh, right. That’s what we are! I thought we were just getting on with it.”

Adrian
It’s a bit like if you were color blind, isn’t it, and you’ve never seen color. And then one day something happens and you can see color. And you’d say, “Oh, right! So that’s what it is!” Or the other way around. If you lost color and people started saying, “Hang on a minute . . . ”

Nathan
Yeah, for sure. It’s just what we have known, really. But we’ve seen a lot of diverse expressions of Christianity in our travels over our time, and been very comfortable with people who are even more nutterish than we are. We enjoy that from time-to-time and then . . .

Adrian
You go both ways. Sometimes they’re more nutty and sometimes they’re less nutty.

Nathan
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The whole spectrum of nuttiness where we fit. But, yeah, I think certainly seeing Terry’s passion for the Spirit, and for the gifts of the Spirit, and for charismatic worship, coupled with not a kind of flakiness in our theology, and not a kind of looseness with that, I think, is wonderful. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else.

Adrian
I think there’s one of your sort of more “bandy” songs, if you like, rather than worshipy songs, but I’m not sure where that distinction always lies. I’m not a musician at all. I’m just not quite sure. I used to play the guitar a little bit, but I never got . . . . It’s funny. I got to the stage where I knew all the chords, but I never could quite learn how to do the rhythm properly. I mean, I could do it in theory, but . . . And I was like—something’s got to give. So, in fact, it was really when I got married. My wife was like, “Adrian, this is very loud and not very helpful.” So I stopped practicing. But anyway, I just have no rhythm, you see. (Laughter)

What was I going on about? I’m losing it. It’s been too long. Oh, yes—the songs! One particular song, and we must finish soon. But there’s one particular song from your more bandy ones that really, I think, expresses that whole kind of Holy Spirit thing—it is that song called “Holy Spirit.”

Nathan
Yeah, yeah, yeah . . .

Adrian
I have to say, the first time I heard that I was actually listening to the CD that it’s on. I don’t remember what the name of the CD is—what’s the album it’s on?

Nathan
It’s Guaranteed.

Adrian
From Guaranteed, yes. And I was just in the car, and was actually just driving, listening to music in the background, and not really thinking about it, and that song came on. I had to stop the car. I was just in tears, overwhelmed and it’s like there was a hunger within me for more of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit’s power—that whole thing. I just wonder if you could share a bit more about that song. Where did it come from? What does it mean to you?

Nathan
Yeah. It was actually Mike, our keyboard player, who wrote the song. I think I had a little bit to do with some of the melody, but it was really his. The majority of the words were his. Yeah, I think it’s a great song because it has that refrain at the end—“Fill me up each day, Fill me each hour, Fill me with your love, Fill me with your power”—so something kind of simple and “Come Holy Spirity,” but the whole rest of the song is really talking about who the Holy Spirit is, what he does. It just goes into more depth. It’s kind of something I think might challenge us because we don’t sing that much about the Holy Spirit, and we kind of sometimes don’t really know that much about him. So he just had a real heart to write a song which was a bit more comprehensive. Actually, Matt Redman, listened to it once (I was in the car with him) and he said, “I think that’s the most comprehensive song on the Holy Spirit I’ve ever heard.” And I think it is quite unique in that way. You're not allowed to say 'quite unique' are you, so it IS unique. (Laughter) We did it at the concert here the other night. I was really keen to do it because I had some friends here who are kind of less charismatic. A friend of mine said to me, “After hearing that, it was like, it was not that any things have changed necessarily, but it’s like I can’t argue with any of the stuff that’s being said there. It’s just truth.” And then, again, the response at the end for us—“fill us up.” We need more of the Holy Spirit. So, yeah, it’s great. I think it’s a very important song, actually.

Continued in part 5 . . .

Yesterday in my interview with Nathan we spoke about writing songs for worship. Today we will move on to talk about the theological thinking behind the songs.

Adrian
It’s actually quite interesting, because already from talking to you, it’s like your songs are so obviously full of theology—I mean, that’s coming across just in talking to you—and I’ve always felt like that in listening to them. They’re also full of passion and kind of “real life” situations, I guess. And that combination, together with modern music, is actually quite rare. Where is that coming from? How do you have the sort of richness to be able to do that and still also be kind of “cool”?

Actually, by the way, I must just say [this]—I met some students last night (and actually you can listen on the blog), and just at the end of our chat (we were talking about the Piper talk last night), right at the end I said, “Oh, and by the way, I was in the Phatfish gig!” And they said, “Hey, that makes you really hip and young and with it,” and I was thinking “Great! That’s really cool!” So you’re still hip . . .

Nathan
Yeah, that does surprise me. I had no idea we were still hip. I thought we were old and “has been.”

Adrian
Clearly you’re not.

Nathan
That’s good, that’s good!

Adrian
Anyway, I forgot what I wanted to ask you now. Do you remember?

Nathan
It was kind of to do with how the richness of theology in songs and . . .

Adrian
Not with being hip . . .

Nathan
Yeah, and how we can still be hip . . . yeah!

Adrian
. . . and still be theological . . .

Nathan
I have no idea. No, I think we’ve just always been encouraged by the sort of church that we’re in, with guys like Terry Virgo, and my dad, and John Hosier—we’ve always been encouraged to put good theology into songs. It’s where my roots are; the sort of songs my dad used to write – such as putting Ephesians 1 to music. It’s just what I’ve grown up with. Just the thought of writing—I mean, occasionally songs don’t have to be as weighty, it’s not like they all have to be really weighty, but to not write any songs like that—it never even has come into my consciousness that that should be done. It’s just always been drummed into us that it’s important what we’re saying. Just the realization that people do go away singing songs, and therefore if we can put good truth into songs, then it’s only going to help the body of Christ, really.

As far as that marriage with being hip, I guess the thing is—just to clarify that I don’t particularly think I’m hip—I do have a desire to write good music as well. I don’t think great songs come about by just finding great theology and trying to put it to “any old tune will do.” Even if it’s a singable tune, I think I’m a believer in the marriage of truth and beauty. I think when you marry great truth with something that is beautiful in terms of music, that’s really when stuff can come alive and people can latch onto it, and the music actually serves as an extra thing to help get the truth home—that’s really my desire. So, in terms of the music, I am dedicated to learning my craft as a musician as well, so in terms of listening to bands, listening to good music that’s out there—that’s the quest for me. It’s also a quest to get my theology as great as possible, as well, to obviously say it all in the context of trying to love God more. It’s all part of what my life is, so when the two things can marry together and people can be, in some way, blessed by it, then, you know, I’m just thrilled as anything.

Adrian
Is there any specific way that you try and make sure that your theology is right in the songs. Is there anyone that you ask to help you who will check things out, or have you got degrees in theology, or what?

Nathan
(Laughter) No. Yes. I’d certainly, well yes . . .

Adrian
Yes to the degrees?

Nathan
Yeah, I have about three degrees! (Laughter) No, I have no degrees at all! Certainly I often run stuff off my dad. When I was first writing songs, I was in his house, so I would just run stuff by him and he would comment on stuff. I’ve sent, I’ve kind of run things past all sorts of people at different times, oddly enough. I think John Hosier, I’ve put stuff past before, and Joel Virgo. I even sent something to you once, didn’t I?

Adrian
You didn’t have to say that! (Laughter)

Nathan
No, I know, . . . I think over time you get a bit more confident in terms of what you’re saying, obviously, but I still feel like I’m drinking milk really when it comes to this—I feel like I’m just at the beginnings of a journey. I mean, sometimes I read through some of my songs and think, “Wow! God was really gracious to me in terms of being able to pen something almost beyond where my understanding is in some songs. I’m catching up still—you know, we’re all on that journey. If I’m unsure about something, then I definitely try to find somebody and just kick it past them. It’s an interesting thing for me. It’s not something that I take lightly.

Adrian
I guess what I’m hearing from that is that you’re very much a part of a theological family almost. Is that a good way of putting it? Within the church and all the people you know?

Nathan
Absolutely! Absolutely our church holds to teaching the Bible systemically and having good theology, holding it in very high esteem. So, yeah, it’s just part of the very fabric of who we are. So, yeah, for sure.

Continued in part 4 . . .

In yesterday's segment of my interview with Nathan, we ended by speaking about how many worship leaders have emerged from his home church, Church of Christ the King, popularly known simply as CCK. Today I ask him about writing songs for worship.

Adrian
The Brighton Newfrontiers church is an amazing resource, if you think about all of you as a group, not just Phatfish, but all the other guys you just mentioned. I mean, you guys write a lot of songs that are used in a lot of places, don’t you?

Nathan
Yeah . . . yes, for sure. Of course, Stuart Townend is probably the key guy in those terms. His songs have obviously gone around the world and are sung as much as anybody’s at the moment. Songs like In Christ Alone and The Power of the Cross seem to be right up there among the most-sung songs in the Christian world at the moment. I’ve had the privilege of being able to write a few that people have taken hold of as well, and Paul Oakley has written some really big songs which have gone ‘round the world. It’s a great privilege. We’re just grateful that we get the chance to do it, really.

Adrian
I know some people don’t pay that much attention to who writes songs, so could you just say (I know you’re probably too embarrassed) which songs that you’ve written are the ones that are most widely known? The one that comes to my mind (I think it’s one of yours) is There Is A Day That All Creation Is Waiting For. I just love that song—it goes on, doesn’t it . . . “A day of freedom and liberation for the world . . .when hurt and pain will cease,” and it talks about our light and momentary troubles achieving a glory for us. I just kept thinking of that song this week; I mean, you did sing it in your gig, but when John Piper was speaking about suffering—that’s the one that I immediately thought of. I must confess, I’m not one of these people who always pays much attention—so what other songs have you written that people sing more?

Nathan
There is a Day is probably the second biggest song I’ve ever written in terms of how far and wide it’s gone. Holy Holy is the song that has actually gone the furthest. The chorus is “Lift up his name with the sound of singing . . .”

It’s funny to me, really. I wrote it when I was about, I think, 17, and I wrote it really quickly. And ever since then I’ve been trying to better my skills, hone my skills, you know, be diligent in my skills, become a better song writer, and the one that I wrote really quickly when I was very young is the one that’s gone further and people know the best. So you just put that down to God’s sovereignty, really. Others I’ve written are one called Awake Awake O Zion, which has got around a bit, and Come Let Us Worship is one. And there’s probably about a hundred songs called that . . .

Adrian
Tell us a few more words of that one . . .

Nathan
The chorus is “You are God, and you’re worthy to be praised, and you’re good . . .” I mean, Stoneleigh was—that was kind of the era where songs probably got most profile. I usually write about one a year for Stoneleigh. To You King Jesus is another one. Jesus Christ the Holy One is another one. So, yeah, I’ve written quite a few. Some of them get better notice than others, but, yeah . . .

Adrian
What about the one, O God of Love, I Come To You. Is that yours?

Nathan
Yes, that is actually. It was predominantly my wife, Lou’s, but we wrote that together. But that one really was her kind of main theme, and I was just around to help shape it and form it a little bit. So, yeah, again, that one has gone out quite a long way.

Adrian
I heard of a bit of an interesting back story on that one, but I may not have heard it right, so what is the back story on that, if you don’t mind me asking.

Nathan
I’d quite like to hear yours, actually! (Laughter) I think it kind of came out at a time there was a young girl in our church who was diagnosed with cancer, and she did actually end up dying. It was obviously quite an intense season in our church—just going through that sort of thing as a body of people is a pretty intense thing. Everybody who was close to her talked about her love for God, and her peace, and how her face shone. It was incredibly moving, even though I didn’t really know her—you can’t help but be moved by it. I know Lou was moved by it. I think a lot of the words of that song came out of that—not just the frailty of our bodies, but the fact that God is always before us and behind us, and he knows our frame, and he knows how we’re made. So there was all that stuff. But the chorus actually just came out when Lou and I were leaders of a small group (or whatever they were called then—cell groups probably, I don’t know—like a youth one). We were just worshipping round one day, and Lou just started singing the chorus—which is quite a simple chorus—but started singing that out, and that song was kind of born there and then, really.

Adrian
That’s the one — How Good It Is To Be Loved by God — that one?

Nathan
Yeah, yeah.

Adrian
Oh, no — How Good It Is To Be Loved by You . . .

Nathan
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Adrian
See, I almost know the words . . .

Nathan
Yeah! I’m impressed! That’s good! (Laughter)

Adrian
Are there any other of those songs where there’s a back story that’s worth telling about? I mean, not just that it sprung into your head in the shower, but anything else that’s worth saying?

Nathan
Well, I think There is a Day is probably one I’d go back to. I was reading a book called the Discipline of Grace by Jerry Bridges. It’s not really a book about the second coming and our future in heaven, or anything like that, but there was obviously something that he put in there, a page that I read—that chorus literally just descended on me like—instantly. I can’t put it in any other way. It was like I got so excited by reading what I was reading (I can’t even remember what it was!) but I guess it was something related. But the chorus, “We will meet him in the air and we will be like him, and we will see him as he is . . .” and then that “Oh yeah!”—it was just genuinely what was in my heart. I remember I was in my bedroom. I slammed my fist down on the bed. That was genuinely what it was—it was like, “Oh YEAH!!” It so gripped me—so just from there I kind of started looking up some simple passages and, you know, I did the whole kind of following Scripture links to this one, and I’d follow it through my Bible and just came up with various lines, and really felt God’s grace in putting it together. A lot of people said to me, “It’s a great theological song.” You have some guys who really do know their stuff theologically, and it’s like, “Yeah, it’s just God’s grace!” I mean, in a sense, it’s just the Bible put to music. But just the flow of it seemed to land really well, and it seems to catch people. It actually gets used at funerals quite a lot as well. I have one story where loads of people got saved—I mean, not 100 percent to do with that song obviously—but that song playing a part in it, playing a part in somebody’s life who recently became a Christian and then actually died suddenly. The song was sung at his funeral, and the family and friends heard the gospel preached, and loads of people were saved. It’s just mind-blowing when you hear things like that and think a song that I’ve written—well, to just be able to play a small part in that is just awesome. It’s wonderful.

Continued in part 3 . . .

The following is an interview with Nathan Fellingham of the band Phatfish. More information about the band is available on Phatfish's website. The lead singer of the band, Lou Fellingham, also sings solo and has just released a new album, Promised Land.

I recorded this interview at New Word Alive and have already shared the audio, which is available here.

Adrian
This is Adrian Warnock here. I’m actually standing outside of the main marquee, right near the edge of the site, looking out over the beach. And the tide is out. I can see sand, and I can see sea, and I can see hills, and I can see clouds—and it’s sweet! But I’m also here with Nathan Fellingham. Nathan is from Phatfish,and there's all sorts of things he’s involved with—so I’m going to ask him a few questions about what they’re up to and about the event here. So, first of all, who are Phatfish?

Nathan
Well, Phatfish is a band that’s been together for about fourteen or fifteen years now. The backbone of that is myself and my brother, Luke, my wife, Louise, and Mike Sandeman. The other guy, Alan Rose, who was with us for about five years and actually left a few years ago, is now pastoring a church up in York, which is great for him. So we have, in recent years, been using various different musicians, depending on what the event is. We’re a band who is dedicated to serving God through our music—through writing songs that help express our worship and help encourage others to express their worship to God; sometimes songs which are teaching songs—songs that as you listen, hopefully, you can be edified and encouraged; essentially through putting a lot of Scripture to music; and just songs that talk about life, our own experiences, and how God is such integral part of our life. The way we outwork that really is through songs and through playing music.

Adrian
Sounds really cool. So whereabouts do you do this playing music? Do you do gigs or what?

Nathan
Yeah—a whole mixture of stuff. We do a lot of them. We don’t do as many Phatfish gigs as we did in years past. There were certainly seasons where we were out as much as we could doing a lot of youth clubs, youth events, town-wide events, Christian festivals, Christian conferences. But at the moment we’re probably most often at Christian conferences. Often we get asked to play for people like Stuart Townend or Kate Simmonds and others, kind of playing as their support band, I suppose, helping them to lead the worship. And on the back of that, often we get to do a few of our own songs and sometimes the occasional gig as well, which is under the Phatfish name. So, yeah, this year we’re actually playing here at New Word Alive at the moment, and we were at the Kingsway Children’s Ministry conference earlier on in the year. We’re going to be at the Brighton Leaders Conference, as well as New Day, and a couple of other Kingsway conferences at the end of the year. We’re going to be up at Keswick in July as well again, leading with Stuart Townend. So, yeah—a lot of conferences this year.

Adrian
I often jokingly say you should be called the band with many names because you’ve been the Stoneleigh Worship Band, haven’t you? The New Word Alive Worship Band, the Brighton Worship Band, Newfrontiers Worship Band, Church of Christ the King Worship Band. And, as you say, accompanying all these other guys. But I think I’m right in saying that a whole bunch of these people you’ve just mentioned are all in the same church, aren’t they? Is that right?

Nathan
Certainly Stuart Townend and another guy, Paul Oakley, are in our church, who a lot of people would know. Kate Simmonds, who we’ve played with, used to be at our church. She actually moved out with her husband and son, Matthew, to Sydney, Australia, to be with the Pete Brooks, who used to be the senior pastor at our church in Brighton. That’s probably about eighteen months ago now that they moved out. So, on top of that Simon Brading is obviously an up and coming very gifted worship leader who a lot of people would know, is also at our church. Yes, Brighton does seem to collect musicians and worship leaders, definitely. It seems to a bit of a hub for creativity for people like that.

Adrian
I think Matt Redman was there for a little while as well, wasn’t he?

Nathan
He had a brief sojourn there. Yeah, he was there for a while. We still have a great relationship with him. He’s just up the road, in a Church of England church.

Adrian
What is it with Brighton? Is it something in the sea water?

Nathan
I think so, yeah. (Laughter) I don’t know. I mean, my Dad, Dave Fellingham, has been one of the pastors, one of the elders, at the church there, really since it started. I think his kind of influence and his heart for worship and heart for creativity, I’m sure, has a part to play in that.

Certainly he was very encouraging to Stuart in the early days, and I’m sure, to Paul Oakley and to Kate Simmonds, and certainly to us as well. He definitely had a lot of the vision that started Phatfish. He really had a desire to have a band who could operate in the realm of leading worship, but also were comfortable in a pub, playing songs to a secular audience. I say that with quote marks, but you cant see that! [laughter] So, yeah, he really encouraged us to do that. I think certainly his influence would be big.

On top of that, I guess I do feel that God has something for us in Brighton. I feel like there is almost a bit of a mantle on us as a church to be people who are leading the way, I suppose, within our network of churches for sure, and I hope for God to do more things in the future based out of that. I look at what we have and think, “Yeah, there is a reason.” I do believe God is in it, and I do believe that he’s got a work to do with us with this collective of worship guys and creative guys in Brighton.

Continued in part 2 . . .

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview is now available to read here.

Yesterday I began an interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. We talked a little about what they do and how Terry came to speak at New Word Alive.

Wendy begins this section of our interview talking about sharing in Terry's travels, and what it was like to be left behind with five children. Terry also explains briefly what he means by modern day apostles.



Continued in part 3 . . .

UPDATE
The written transcript of this interview is now available. It can be read here.

Today I share the first of a three-part interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo, recorded at New Word Alive. Terry and Wendy kindly invited me into their chalet as I was a bit cold from speaking with Don Carson outside.

In this segment we talked about what exactly they both do, what is Newfrontiers, and a bit about the relationships that led to Terry speaking at New Word Alive. I have previously interviewed Terry here.



Continued in part 2 . . .

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview with John Piper is now available. It can be read here.

This is the fourth and final segment of my interview with John Piper. You can also watch these preceding segments:

• John Piper on New Word Alive and Spring Harvest
  
  
• John Piper on Passionate Preaching
  
  
• John Piper on Prayer and Bible Study

I began this section by asking John which preachers he listens to on his iPOD. He mentioned a number of names, and if you have the e-mail address for any of them, why not drop them a line and tell them you heard Piper has been listening to them! I doubt many things will bring more encouragement to them than knowing that John Piper has found their work helpful.

When I asked about why he chose to leave the seminary setting and become a pastor, he explained that after a period of time studying the Bible, he felt God was saying to him, “I will be proclaimed and not just analyzed.”

He also spoke about the need for long-term stability in a church’s leadership team. He spoke about how his wife supports his ministry. “She's just so incredibly flexible that I married the right woman.” He spoke about what the Piper family home looks like. We even spoke about soccer.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview with John Piper is now available. It can be read here.

So far John has addressed the UK church scene and preaching. In this section of our video interview I asked him about his prayer life, which he described as prayer mingled with the Word rather than separate sections of time for prayer alone and the Word alone. He talked about his Bible study, and how that discipline, along with so many other things in his life, sometimes feels as if it is driven by the expectations placed on him. His focus is currently on preparing for what he is going to do.

Unfortunately there is a small section at the end where we somehow lost the audio, but one of the technical whizzes over at UCCF managed to figure out what Piper was saying. His words at that point have been superimposed on the video picture. This interview continues tomorrow with the final segment.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview with John Piper is now available. You can read it here.

Yesterday I began speaking with John Piper about New Word Alive and why he comes to the UK. In this segment, I began by putting before John the notion that he has an unusual degree of passion and anointing when preaching. I even quoted Lig Duncan, who said that he wondered if he had ever really preached after hearing Piper's talk at the first Together for the Gospel conference. I asked him whether he was conscious of this, and if he had any explanation for it.

Piper began his answer by honestly stating, “I don’t usually feel that way when I am done preaching.” He spoke about how the sermons he is most unhappy with are sometimes the ones people feel most helped by. He spoke about the need for a ”self-forgetfulness in a full engagement with what is there in the text . . . and the reality of God in the text.”

He did say that there are ways to cultivate this. “It is cultivating God-centeredness, prayer, a serious engagement with the Word, and asking certain kinds of God-centered, Christ-exalting questions. There's a focus and a preoccupation. And then my root Christian hedonism, my root philosophy—whether you are satisfied in God really makes a difference about whether you can glorify God . . . If you are not passionate about God you won’t glorify him as much. If you are more passionate about football than God, you will glorify football.”

This whole segment is tantalizing, as is much of Piper's unusual ministry. It made me want to spend about three hours with Piper probing him further about all this. Sadly we did not have three hours, but we did have longer, and I continued my conversation in a video I will share tomorrow.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this video is now available and can be accessed here.

At the recent New Word Alive conference I was able to record a four-part interview with John Piper. John rarely gives interviews of any form, so it was a real privilege, and one that I hope you will enjoy.

Dr. Piper asked that we begin with prayer. His humble request of God that, for the sake of others, he would help us in our conversation was no mere lifeless routine. Here is a man who oozes the presence of God even when you are with him in such conversational moments. I found it challenging and stimulating to spend a little bit of time with him at the conference.

I began by asking him what brought him to this conference in Wales. He spoke of his surprise at realizing he seemed to have a broad appeal in the UK. He is welcomed to speak at a wide range of conferences from different backgrounds. He said that he was both “contaminated by the charismatic” and “a seven-point Calvinist.”

He described how he felt drawn to help in the process of realignment that is going on in UK evangelicalism at the moment. He spoke about the previous differences with Spring Harvest, which together with his discussions with the authors of Pierced For Our Transgressions, had made him especially keen to help the organizers of New Word Alive.

John said he was keen to do what he could to draw exegetically serious Bible, gospel people together—whether charismatic or not.

This interview will be continued tomorrow.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this interview is now available and can be read here.

In the second part of my interview with Don Carson we spoke about how to prepare people to serve as leaders and preachers in the Church. We spoke about the place of seminary, and about those who, like Martyn Lloyd-Jones, serve without spending time there. We also spoke about conferences, and the importance of recognizing that most of us are just going to be ordinary Christians. You can view part 1 here.

My video interview with John Piper will begin on Monday.

UPDATE
The written text of this interview is now available. You can access it here.

The following video was filmed at New Word Alive in April of this year, when I had the opportunity to speak with Don Carson. We spoke about his reasons for coming to the UK, about how he chose to leave the field of chemistry to become a pastor and then left pastoral ministry to train ministers in a seminary, the crucial importance of the local church, and his relationship with his father.

My interview will conclude tomorrow with part 2.




Jonathan Leeman has kindly transcribed some of the key points about seminaries and churches:

• "The front line is the local church, and there's a sense in which the seminary is a back up slot."
  
  
• "The first impetus toward ministry and toward stamping people for what ministry ought to be ought to be within the context of the local church."
  
  
• "A good seminary, a good theological college, helps to provide the kind of training, and further exposure, more technical knowledge, grasp of the language, this sort of thing, that virtually no local church can produce."
  
  
• "Yet it's really important for those who teach in such places, nevertheless, to be pastors first, because if they think of themselves as teachers and scholars first, then they tend to produce teachers and scholars. So there's a stamping not simply from the course materials, but from your own values, what you think about, what you dream about."
  
  
• "So at our seminary, we always hire a certain percentage of faculty who wish they were in the pastoral ministry or else, quite frankly, we don't want them. Now, they have to be academically competent and all the rest. But we don't want people who just want to be in a seminary.We want people who, in many ways, would prefer to be in the local church."

UPDATE- in 2009 I was also able to record a video interview with Hugh Palmer.

The following interview with Hugh Palmer took place at New Word Alive 2008. I have already published the audio version, which is available here.

Adrian
I’m here with Hugh Palmer.

Hugh
Hello!

Adrian
So, Hugh, can I just say first of all what a fantastic week this has been—to go from a standing start to . . . how many people are here?

Hugh
Pretty much 4,000.

Adrian
And it was all sold out within a matter of weeks, wasn’t it?

Hugh
Yes. The site was sold out, and then we sold the best part of a thousand event passes on top of that.

Adrian
Wonderful—that’s amazing! So, what are we going to do next year then?

Hugh
Well, next year we’re heading to Prestatyn, and we’ve got two weeks back-to-back in the run-up to Easter. It’s a similar size site—it takes about 3,000. So we need even more people there.

Adrian
What kinds of people should come? It’s not just for students, is it?

Hugh
No, it’s anyone and everyone! The first week is during university holidays, but not during school holidays, so obviously that will be one where the student track will run, but where anyone who isn’t limited by school holidays is welcome. There will be plenty for all who are there. Then, in the second week (the week running up to Easter itself), we’ll have the full children and youth program and all the usual range of Bible teaching.

Adrian
There are lots of different conferences that run. What would you say is unique about this one? Well . . . not so much unique, but what is the vision of this conference?

Hugh
Well, the vision of this conference is to understand firmly and clearly the biblical gospel of Jesus, and yet we want to include anyone who wants to stand with us. It’s been very exciting this year to see the huge range of churches represented here. It’s been an encouraging thing for us. Our vision is not just that it will be a good holiday week and that there will be good Bible teaching, but that this really would be a time that does serve the churches; that it equips and trains us; and also, sends us out with a vision for and ability to start to reach the world.

Adrian
That sounds pretty great. So, you really are looking for Christians from all sorts of persuasions and colors and backgrounds, are you?

Hugh
Anyone who wants to stand firmly on the biblical gospel of Jesus, we want to welcome to come with us, join with us, train and grow with us.

Adrian
That’s fantastic. And we’ve had people from as far a field as Newfrontiers and the Anglican church, like yourself, and all sorts of other different groupings as well, haven’t we this year—in the speakers and also in the participants?

Hugh
Yes, and there are people who still seem to be talking to each other at the end of the week!

Adrian
Yes. I don’t think I’ve seen any fisticuffs!

Hugh
No, we try to keep those out of sight! (Laughter)

Adrian
Well, Hugh, I’m sure you’re busy and need to get on with other things. Thanks for walking with me and just sharing a few thoughts. It’s been great. Possibly we’ll do this in more detail at some point in the future when we can do a proper Adrian Warnock interview with you. But for right now, thanks loads for these few minutes. I’ll let you get on with what you’re doing.

Hugh
Thanks, Adrian. Take care.

This is the final segment of my three-part interview with Wallace Benn, Bishop of Lewes and previous leader of Word Alive. Part one can be read here, and part two here.

In the concluding section, the Bishop talks about handing over the leadership duties to Hugh Palmer, and the role New Word Alive has in fostering continued cooperation between conviction evangelicals.

Adrian
Practically speaking, I know next year New Word Alive is moving on to two weeks and all that kind of stuff. Are you able to give us any insider tips about what it’s going to look like next year, or is that all still in the early stages?

Wallace Benn
No, because I’m no longer on the planning committee.

Adrian
Oh, I see. So you can’t . . .

Wallace Benn
No, there was a real hand-over. This year is a lovely opportunity for me, with great delight, to hand it over to my friend, Hugh Palmer. It really is out there, so I’m not on the steering committee. But I go on being, for as long as people want me to be, associated with and involved in New Word Alive, and am totally supportive up front in every way of their whole development.

Adrian
It’s nice to know, again, breaking down my caricatures, that there are evangelical bishops out there—in fact, there are several of you, aren’t there?

Wallace Benn
There are!

Adrian
You’re not alone, then.

Wallace Benn
Happily, there are!

Adrian
I know some people might be listening to this in America, and they may not necessarily have heard of Hugh, but Hugh (I think I might say this) is sort of filling John Stott’s shoes in a sense, isn’t he, at All Souls. Have I got that right?

Wallace Benn
Yes, well he’s the successor to the role that John Stott once held. There have been people there in-between—Richard Bewes, who is very well known, was the last rector of All Souls, so Hugh is the immediate successor of Richard Bewes . . .

Adrian
Right, got you. Okay.

Wallace Benn
. . . who, in turn . . . before him there was Michael Baughen, and before that John Stott.

Adrian
John Stott has just retired, I understand, hasn’t he, just this last year?

Wallace Benn
Yes he has. He’s retired from public ministry. He’s delightful as ever, and as sharp as anything, but not very mobile.

Adrian
Right, okay. There are some great names of evangelicals who have been around for years, and Stott was certainly one of them. I think Stott would have been happy to be here, don’t you?

Wallace Benn
Absolutely delighted, I’m sure! And my old professor and friend would also have been delighted to be here—Jim Packer—and people like Alec Motyer, another well-known stalwart in his generation of evangelicals.

Adrian
Yes, I’m sure that’s right. There is sort of a “handing over” of generations that is happening a little bit now. It will be interesting to see who rises to the fore, really, and obviously this is, again, another opportunity for some of those people to speak to large numbers of people.

Wallace Benn
I think the confessional evangelicals who are strong doctrinally on the big truths of the Bible will more and more find themselves pulling together and working together.

Adrian
I think you’re right.

Wallace Benn
And I think that’s a good thing in a way because we need one another.

Adrian
I think we do. And I think we can learn from one another, can’t we? It’s been great to see that in action here, with vibrant worship songs really sort of bouncing out from the stage, and then some hymns as well, of course, because we don’t neglect the hymns. I do believe in that. And then, obviously, solid biblical teaching. To see all that in one conference is great, isn’t it?

Wallace Benn
From your side of the church, the music of Townend and Getty has been fabulous in putting to music—very good music and singable music—really really well thought through doctrinal convictions and biblical convictions, and that’s a great gift to the whole Church. Increasingly, I think we need to be careful in different denominations that we just don’t build empires, because actually it’s God’s kingdom and not our own—it’s his Word that matters. So, in a world where we have a great missionary task to win the world for Christ, we need to work more together.

Adrian
Yes, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think it holds for people outside the Church as well, because there’s always that conception, “Oh, Christians! They’re all so divided, and they’re petty divisions. Some people might argue that about Christians. But I guess this week helps to show that, in a sense, that’s not right—that we can work with people across all sorts of boundaries.

Wallace Benn
There are secondary things here that we would disagree about, but none of them are important compared to the big truths of the Christian faith, and our total conviction that we need to live as Christians under the supreme authority of Bible.

Adrian
Yes. I think that’s absolutely right.

Wallace Benn
If you can prove to me from Scripture that something I hold to is wrong, I’m duty bound to change it. And I know you are, too.

Adrian
Yes!

Wallace Benn
So, that’s a great thing.

Adrian
And that’s the point, isn’t it? This is the thing for me. When I sat down with Tim Chester, as I mentoned earlier, we did dialogue. We had a bit of a debate going on, and I was bracing myself for what you do get when you talk to some people, which is just human reason, or it will be something to accommodate a culture. Do you know what I’m trying to say? Those issues we were talking about . . .

Wallace Benn
Yes.

Adrian
What was really striking was, as much as Tim and I might disagree, we were both coming at it from a conviction that we believed that this was what the Bible was saying. So we could agree to disagree in that sense because I respect somebody who follows their convictions because they believe they are biblical convictions. I might happen to think they’re wrong, but as long as they have that humble attitude about it, for me that’s good enough. And I’m sure . . . I don’t know if I’m expressing that very well.

Wallace Benn
No, no, that’s fine. I agree with that point.

Adrian
Do you think there will be other ways in which we will work together as well? Who knows? As you’re looking into the future, what sort of things do you think will come up? It’s a difficult one, I guess.

Wallace Benn
I think it is a difficult one, but I think a lot will depend . . . locally on the ground, and certainly around where I live and work, there is increasing cooperation between conviction evangelicals. And it’s lovely to see, I think, and very thrilling to see. I think it’s been over the last four or five years, there has begun to develop the kind of new wine-side of the evangelical movement and the reformed side of the evangelical movement that are actually, on fundamental convictions, saying the same things and sharing the same convictions. Just as a convinced evangelical Anglican and a convinced evangelical Newfrontiers man are actually focused on the cross, and convinced about all the central truths of evangelical Christianity. And I love what John Stott said years ago—that he was a Christian first, an evangelical second, and an Anglican third. I mean, that’s right, isn’t it? The way we should . . .

Adrian
Yes. I think that’s right. Well, look, I don’t want to take too much of your time. I’m sure you have other things you need to go to, but thank you so much for joining us.

Wallace Benn
It’s been a great pleasure.

Adrian
I look forward to, no doubt, seeing you again, and perhaps meeting some of your other evangelical colleagues at various points.

Wallace Benn
Thanks for the conversation, Adrian.

This is the second part of a three-part interview I did with Bishop Wallace Benn at the New Word Alive conference last week. You can read part 1 here.

In this segment, the Bishop discusses his total commitment to the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement, and gives some reasons why PSA "is central to a proper understanding of the gospel."

Adrian
You just mentioned a high view of the cross. For those people who might not understand what all that means, would you mind unpacking that for a moment?

Wallace Benn
Those who founded Word Alive, and Word Alive through the years, and now New Word Alive, are totally committed to the penal substitutionary view of the atonement. That is, that Jesus died as our substitute and our sin-bearer—that you and I deserve to be on the cross.

One of the lovely things (I don’t know if you know this) in Mel Gibson’s film, The Passion of the Christ, he was asked whether he took any part in the film, having directed it. And he said, “Well, only one. It’s my hand that holds the nails that crucified Christ in the film.” That’s a profound and right insight—that he died, not just for the whole world, but he died for ME! And actually it was understanding that which was the means of my conversion.

So, not only did Jesus die as our sin-bearing substitute, but in so doing, he took the wrath of God against our sin. He actually took our place, and the righteous judgment of God against sin Jesus dealt with. Without that, you and I would be hopeless in a very literal sense—actually without any hope at all. So I have no sympathy whatsoever with people who want to water that down for entirely wrong reasons, in my opinion. I think that’s central to a proper understanding of the gospel.

Adrian
We certainly haven’t seen any watering down of that here, have we?

Wallace Benn
No, absolutely not!

Adrian
Speaker after speaker has been crystal clear.

Wallace Benn
I’m absolutely delighted to affirm it. It’s a great joy to me to see that done.

Adrian
Yes, I think that’s right. There is obviously a joining of hands of people who all feel the same way. It’s not a minority position at all, is it?

Wallace Benn
Not at all!

Adrian
When you have, for example, that list (I think your name is on it)—that list of people who affirmed that particular book, Pierced for Our Transgressions, it’s almost like a Who’s Who of Christianity. I know there were some people who didn’t affirm it, but the number of people who did, from all kinds of different backgrounds—you might say, "Surely those two groups aren’t even talking to each other!"— and yet they both would look up and say, “No, this is the gospel!”

Wallace Benn
It was a pleasure to be one of those whose name was associated with that magnificent book, truly. That’s great to see.

Adrian
Absolutely. And it’s not as though that’s the only book either, is it? There are a lot of books out there that say the same thing basically.

Wallace Benn
I’m an old student of J. I. Packer, who thirty years ago wrote a magnificent defense of the penal substitutionary idea of the atonement. That view of the cross is the classic evangelical view, and if we move away from it, we move away from the teaching of the Bible. We move away from the teaching of our forefathers in terms of an understanding of the gospel. There are many other things you can say about the cross—there isn’t only one thing you can say about the cross. But those of us who are here believe that penal substitution is the glue that holds all the other things together.

Adrian
That’s a lovely way of putting it actually, isn’t it?

Continued in part 3 . . .

While I was in Pwllheli at New Word Alive, I did an MP3 interview with Bishop Wallace Benn. I thought that I would share the full transcript here over the next few days.

Adrian
This is Adrian Warnock here, and right now I’m in the Refectory, so you can probably hear some of the hubbub as people finish their meals. I think I got the last dinner today, so it may die down as we continue here.

I’m here with the Bishop. I’m very grateful that he’s been able to join us. Would you like to introduce yourself a little bit for anyone who may not know who you are and what your role has been with this event.

Wallace Benn
I’m Wallace Benn. I’m the Bishop of Lewes—that’s the area of Bishop of East Sussex. I used to be Chairman of Word Alive, and I’m delighted to be involved in New Word Alive doing leadership seminars in the evening and some Bible teaching at the team event in the morning.

Adrian
I’ve just heard from Hugh Palmer his expression of what we want this week, and this conference, to be about. I’m just wondering what your own personal view of that would be in terms of—What are your hopes and dreams for moving forward? Are you going to carry on being involved in this, or what’s the deal for you?

Wallace Benn
Yes, I would love to carry on being involved. We’ll wait and see about that in terms of times and dates, etc., but I would love to be involved. I think the vision for New Word Alive is very much the same as the original vision for Word Alive, which was to have lively, relevant Bible teaching of a high quality for the whole family, including students, with lively modern worship, and to major on Bible teaching and the important doctrines of the Christian faith rather than some secondary issues that may divide the sects.

Adrian
For me, one of the excellent things about this week has been bringing people together from all sorts of different backgrounds. This is actually, believe it or not, and despite the fact that I’ve been a Christian for a long while, and I’ve met all kinds of different church leaders and interviewed them, you’re the first bishop I’ve ever actually met in the flesh in my entire Christian life. And I’ve never heard one preach either.

Wallace Benn
(Laughs) I don’t know whether that’s a singular mercy or a blessing!

Adrian
(Laughs) I don’t know either! I’ve met other people who I perhaps would not have met in another context because my background is actually Newfrontiers. I think that, for example, you’ve met Terry Virgo here for the first time as well?

Wallace Benn
Yes. Terry Virgo and I have been talking about doing something together. Where I’m based in Eastbourne, I work quite closely with some of the Newfrontiers leaders—Andy Johnson is a very good friend, and we’re working on something called “Bible by the Beach,” which is another different new project.

Adrian
It’s great, really, to see that. And someone said to me, Hugh Palmer, yourself, and guys like Terry and John Piper and Don Carson—they all are committed to the central tenets of the cross and the gospel, and in that sense the things that divide, if they do divide, are so much less important.

Wallace Benn
Absolutely! The original vision of Word Alive was to have a conference committed to a high view of the Bible and to the teaching of it in a high view way, and a high view of the cross, and the central truths of the Christian faith, and not to deviate from those things. It is wonderful to get together with like-minded brothers and sisters who share exactly the same kind of commitment. It’s a delight. It’s a new association to us.

Adrian
Yes, it is, it is!

Wallace Benn
I think there’s a lot of discovering of one another here. There are folks standing for the same things, who have the same passions.

Adrian
I think that’s right. I think it helps one to get rid of the caricatures. I mean, you’re not wearing a robe right now, Bishop!

Wallace Benn
No, no! (Laughter) Happily!

Adrian
Do you know what I mean? I know that’s a silly example, but seriously, I think we build up caricatures of each other, and of what we think other people stand for. And yet when you actually meet them in the flesh . . . I had a great chat with Tim Chester from Sheffield. His ecclesiology is obviously very different to mine, and I built up all kinds of images of what people who hold that kind of ecclesiology are obviously like. And then you meet someone like that, and you sit down and talk about the Bible, and you realize that actually here’s a guy who loves the Bible. For me, that’s the most important thing.

Wallace Benn
Absolutely! Absolutely.

Continued in part 2 . . .

My blogging buddy, Dave Bish, of The Bluefish Project yesterday hijacked my ipod recorder and turned the tables on me. He felt it was time somebody interviewed me. You can pop over to his site to listen.

UPDATE In April 2009 I also recorded a video interview with Stuart Townend.

I had the pleasure of interviewing Stuart Townend today. Stuart is based in Church of Christ the King, a Newfrontiers church in Brighton, UK, which is also home to Phatfish, Paul Oakley, and Terry Virgo.

Here is an abridged and adapted version of that interview. The entire interview can be accessed at the end of this post and is well worth listening to in its entirety. Stuart was a joy to interview and clearly passionate about worship and doctrine.

Adrian
How are you finding the conference?

Stuart
It's great, so far. There has been a good response. The standard of teaching has been world-class.

Adrian
Do tell us a bit more about your song, In Christ Alone.

Stuart
It was the first song Keith Getty and I wrote together. Keith is a fantastic melody writer. It was his music that inspired me to take my lyric writing seriously and convey the truths of the Scriptures in a poetic way to help people retain the truth. I have been humbled to see how it has been used. I get more comments on that song than all the rest put together. It was a timely song, written around the time 9-11 shook our foundations. To be able to sing at that time “No scheme of man can pluck me from his hand” was important.

Adrian
What makes a worship song good?

Stuart
Having focused on the cross of Christ, it’s important to ask, “What does that mean for me? What's the foundation of life?” It’s not just, “How does it make me feel?" Rather, it should be—"What is the unchanging truth about my life based on the unchanging truth about God and what he has done? What has God said about me or us or the Church?” Those things are unchanging truths that don't depend on whether I am having a good time or a bad time. They are about me, but they are really about God and what God has done in me. Worship is not just about singing songs that make me feel better. In the middle of whatever I am facing, God is with me. Worship should be exciting, but founded on the truth of the gospel. Our feelings are a by-product of the glorious truth we are celebrating.

Adrian
Do you think there is still as much disagreement among Christians over music as there previously was?

Stuart
I don't think there is. It’s a shame that some think lively worship has to be the modern stuff. People have been getting excited for centuries. But songs that were divisive have now been embraced. There are, however, some churches out there who are singing songs that contain theology that they actually wouldn't preach.

Adrian
Indeed! In Christ Alone has also caused some controversy, hasn't it?

Stuart
Yes, some people breach copyright law by changing a particular line. Some people will not use the song. But the problem with that is that some people are saying we shouldn't preach or sing about a core element of the gospel. I cannot make sense of the whole Bible without the concept of wrath.

Listen to the full interview by subscribing to my new podcast or download it here. For more information, visit Stuart Townend's website or read the interview Newfrontiers Magazine Online did with him in October of 2007. You can also legally download music, lyrics, and mp3's from Stuart Townend at the Kingsway website

Today I can finally reveal that No. 1 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on April 2, 2006, and was my interview with Mark Driscoll, the pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Washington.

Thanks to my friends at Crossway, a free copy of Mark Driscoll's new book, Vintage Jesus, will be winging its way to Vince, who e-mailed the correct answer, Hugh, who blogged it, Terry B, who guessed wrong, and Craig who deserves a prize for persistence.

Back in April 2006, I had only recently heard of Mark Driscoll. When we conducted this interview, he was already prompting quite a significant response online, and as the months progressed, he would become probably the most talked-about preacher on the Internet. Other recent and popular posts on my blog about Mark Driscoll include:

• Mark Driscoll, Terry Virgo, and Shepherding God's People
  
  
• Driscoll on the Defeat of Shame and the Scotland MP3s
  
  
• Mark Driscoll Preaches On the Atonement in Edinburgh, Scotland
  
  
• Mark Driscoll at Menmakers in Scotland
  
  
• Mark Driscoll Apologizes for Not Being Humble
  
  
• Mark Driscoll Firm, But Kind, About Joel Osteen on Prosperity Teaching
  
  
• Mark Driscoll in Christianity Today

I have also listed ways of obtaining Mark Driscoll's sermons online at "Audio Sermons: Mark Driscoll—The Charismatic With a Seat Belt."

It is an absolute pleasure to welcome to my blog, Mark Driscoll. Mark is known for having a prominent role in the early days of the Emergent movement, and for his rapidly growing Mars Hill Church. More recently, via his new venture, Resurgence, he has made an explosive entry into the Christian blog-world, which some have likened to none other than The Pyromaniac himself. More posts about Mark Driscoll are linked at the end of this article. You can also visit my interview with Wendy Alsup, a deacon at Mark Driscoll's church.

Adrian
So, Mark, tell us a bit about yourself and your ministry . . .

Mark
I was born in 1970 to a hard-working blue-collar construction worker dad. I was raised Irish Catholic, but did not know Jesus until God saved me while reading Romans in college at the age of 19. Shortly thereafter, God spoke to me, telling me to plant a church, train men, preach the Bible, and marry my girlfriend, who was a Christian I dearly loved. I married Grace at the age of 21, graduated with a degree in Speech at 22, moved back to my hometown of Seattle, and launched Mars Hill Church at the age of 25. Today I am the father of five children and remain one of the elders at Mars Hill Church.

Adrian
In my first post about you I said, "Mars Hill is one of those unique churches that is probably too emerging for some evangelicals to cope with, much too traditional for the emerging folks, too charismatic for the reformed folks, and too reformed for the average charismatic. It's a wonder anyone likes the church! Actually, the more I read of Mark the more he sounds like he is making his home in the same kind of center ground that my own church tries to occupy." Do you recognize that description of yourself—do you sometimes feel like something of a theological misfit?

Mark
I am a theological misfit and have learned to be okay with that. We are missional, which offends fundamentalists. We hold to the fundamentals, which offends the liberals. We are theologically charismatic, but not shake and bake holy rollers, which puts us in the middle of a big debate to be shot by both sides. We are reformed, but not old school, and don't baptize babies, don't hold to the regulative principle, and won't die on the hill of Limited Atonement, but hold a more unlimited/limited position, which upsets both sides of the debate. In the end, I hold to a high view of inerrant Scripture and am trying to be biblical, even when it makes a mess of my systematics.

Adrian
What other groups or individuals can you look at and say, "Yeah, they seem to have got it—I can follow them"? Who would you say have been your main influences?

Mark
I learn a lot from John Piper, D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, and Tim Keller. The dead guys I like tend to be Puritans and early church fathers. I also am a huge Spurgeon fan, and read every biography I can get on him. I love biographies and learn from the lives of Calvin, Luther, Aquinas, Augustine, Patrick, etc. . . .

Read more . . . Interview With Mark Driscoll

No. 6 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on December 18, 2006, and was a summary of the highlights of my interview with Dr. Wayne Grudem, a man who is certainly a wonderful gift to the global Church! Other segments of this interview would have made the top 30 in their own right, as would my review of Dr. Grudem's supreme Systematic Theology.

At times it looked like it would go on forever, but the Wayne Grudem interview is over. In this post I look back on the whole interview and its aftermath. If you haven't got time to read through the whole thing, this will give you an overview and help you select the parts you may want to read in more detail. I will also share some personal reflections of the interview - some of which, of course, directly resulted in the sudden change to my comment policy

Part 1 - Personal Matters

If there is one thing that stands out from this whole interview, it's the fact that egalitarians simply don't understand what complementarians like Wayne Grudem are saying. The assumption made by some people seems at least to me to be that anyone who believes in a husband leading and taking responsibility for his wife is effectively a woman-hater. I hope that particular view is indeed rare, but we need to do everything we can to ensure that we are communicating across the divides caused in part by us using words differently.

This quote sums up the man, Dr. Grudem, in my mind, and reveals that - far from being the troublemaker some people think he is - this is a man of deep love and humility. Bizarrely to me given the way I understand the word, some poeple even held this quote up as an example of Dr. Grudem "submitting" to his wife. In reality, it is a great example of him taking the responsibility for a decision that would help his wife and simultaneously hurt his career. Perhaps if this was what every husband meant by leading his wife, the whole feminist issue would evaporate:

"We moved to Phoenix Seminary in Arizona in 2001, primarily because of Margaret’s health. She had been experiencing chronic pain after an auto accident a number of years earlier, and we found that the pain was aggravated by cold and humidity. Well, the Chicago area is cold in the winter and humid in the summer! After a couple of trips to Arizona, which is hot and dry, we realized that Margaret felt much better there. So I phoned the academic dean at Phoenix Seminary and asked if there might possibly be a job opportunity there for me. It is a long and wonderful story of the Lord’s guidance and provision, but the result is that we have been here since June of 2001, Margaret has felt much better, and I also love the seminary where I am now teaching. So we are thankful for God’s blessings in many ways. I am thankful to the Lord that when we were making a decision about whether to move to Phoenix, on the very day we were talking and praying about it, I came to Ephesians 5:28 in my regular schedule of daily Bible reading, and the Lord used this verse strongly in my own decision process: “In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.” After reading that, I thought it was important for me to move for the sake of Margaret’s physical body, her physical health.

Part 2 - Systematic Theology and Controversy

Dr. Grudem's answer to my question about his book, Systematic Theology, further demonstrated his humility, but in other ways was also quite revealing. A big difference between men like Grudem and certain other theologians is that he believes it is his task to make complex theological truths understandable by ordinary "lay" people without theological degrees - people like me. I cannot agree more, as quite frankly, if a theologian cannot write about his ideas and the evidence he bases them on in a way that a person of reasonable education can understand, then there is something very wrong. I thank God for men like Grudem who can do just that.

"I am surprised, and thankful to God for the way the book seems to continue to be a blessing to people – and not just to pastors and seminary students, but lots of other Christians from all walks of life. As you know, I believe that God intended His Word to be understood, not just by specialists, but also by ordinary Christians. The “blessed man” in Psalm 1 is held up as an example for all of us: “His delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.” (Psalm 1:2)"

Read more . . . Dr. Wayne Grudem—Highlights and Reflections

No. 8 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on October 10, 2005, when I had the honor of interviewing C. J. Mahaney via e-mail.

C. J. has, in recent years, been introduced to a new audience because of his friendship with Mark Dever and Company. I have known of him since the 1980's, and loved to listen to him live at early Newfrontiers Bible Weeks.

In January 2008, C. J.began blogging at the Sovereign Grace Blog—C. J. Mahaney's View From the Cheap Seats and Other Stuff. The headlines from that blog will be appearing in my Warnie Winners Box from now on.

Adrian
It is my great pleasure to welcome to the blog one of my greatest heroes in the faith, C. J. Mahaney. C. J. is well-known as a preacher and the leader of Sovereign Grace Ministries. More recently he has been gaining fame in the world of blogs as the husband and father of the writers of GirlTalk. He is also the mentor of another well-known blogger and author, Josh Harris, who I have also interviewed.

Welcome to the world of the blogosphere, C. J. It was great of you to join us for this interview. I would like to talk to you today about your new book, Humility—True Greatness. First of all, what prompted such a book? Whose idea was it, and how was it born?

C. J.
Adrian, I'm honored to be interviewed! I can assure you the idea for this book was not mine! I didn't volunteer to write this book, and there were countless times while writing it that I had the following thought: "You idiot! Why did you agree to write this book?" I was approached by my publisher to write the book, and I was encouraged by my wife and friends. After some initial reluctance, I agreed to do it. I can assure you that writing about humility is a humbling experience.

Adrian
It seems from what you are saying and from my reading of the book that humility is actually something of a lifetime message for you. Am I right in that assessment? Do you believe that one of the biggest needs of the Church today is for leaders to emerge who have the authority to lead, but the humility to do so graciously? If so, how will this book and other resources help in producing such leaders?

C. J.
Adrian, you ask good questions and you ask a lot of questions! It is true that I have been studying both humility and pride for many years for the purpose of weakening pride in my own life and cultivating humility by the grace of God. And I think Scripture is clear about the priority of humility, not just for leaders, but for everyone who professes to love and serve the Savior. In Isaiah 66:2 we read the following astonishing statement:

This is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word."

Although God is aware of all things, he is searching for something in particular, something that acts like a magnet to capture his attention and invite his active involvement. And that something is humility. God is decisively drawn to the humble. It is my hope that this book will remind the reader of the priority of humility in the divine economy and the gracious promise of God "to give grace to the humble (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5).

Read more . . . Interview With C. J. Mahaney

No. 13 on the list of most read posts on this blog appeared on November 19, 2007, and was part of a series of posts on the debate between Bishop Tom Wright and John Piper over justification. Other parts of this series which would have made the top 30 in their own right include:

• John Piper, N. T. Wright, and Gracious Discernment
  
• John Piper: Is N. T. Wright Preaching Another Gospel?

The series is summarized here:

• Piper on Wright Conclusion: What is Justification?

The post is republished here in its entirety:

Trevin Wax has interviewed Tom Wright. A manuscript and audio are both available. Of particular interest is the following short section from Wright on Piper. Would that all our theological sparring partners could speak this way about us!

"Piper is in a different category. He graciously sent me an advance manuscript of his book which is critiquing me and invited my comments on it. I sent him a lengthy set of comments. I’ve only just got on email about two days ago the book in the revised form and I haven’t had a chance to look at it yet. So I cannot say whether he’s being fair or not at this stage.

But I do know that he has done his darndest to be fair and I honor that and I respect that. People have asked me if I’m going to write a response, and the answer is that I don’t know. I’m kind of busy right now. But I maybe should, sooner or later."

No. 14 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on June 28, 2007, and was the summary post of an interview with the father of the family of churches of which I am thrilled to be a part, and a man I respect like few others alive today. Terry Virgo is that rare true gift of God to the global Church, a man who will leave the worldwhile Church in a far better state than he found it. His influence extends far beyond the 500 churches which are a part of Newfrontiers to the many thousands of others who have been affected by his teaching.

If you want to keep in touch with Terry, please do add Terry Virgo's Blog to your reading list or keep visiting here, where his posts will appear in the Warnie Winners headline box from now on.

So far in this interview with Terry Virgo we have looked at his view of the wider church scene, the origins, and then the distinctives of Newfrontiers. Today we will examine his view of the future.

Terry, I would love to draw your attention now to the future. What do you think it holds for you and the family of churches you lead?

Within Newfrontiers it is essential that we prayerfully look for emerging apostles and not simply regional supervisors. I thank God for regional supervisors who help us to serve the Church, but it's essential that we make space for genuinely anointed apostles and let them find their own sphere. We must be flexible. I think that the Apostle Paul was called by God, developed his own apostolic sphere, and then received the right hand of fellowship from Peter and John who were Apostles before him. Paul came out of a different stable. He wasn't made an apostle by Peter and John; they acknowledged that he was one. We need to look for the same kind of development — we look for gifting and give it the right hand of fellowship rather than thinking that we can institutionally appoint people into that office.

How would that happen? How would you recognize that?

In South Africa the unexpected death of Simon Pettit, our senior leader, has forced the issue in an extraordinary way. God said to us that an oak tree had fallen, but not to be replaced by another one. Instead, saplings were growing and we were to discern who they were and encourage their growth. Now, what I have observed is that there are three or four guys who are gifted in raising up leaders, raising up churches, and overseeing churches. They have done it as a result of their own gifting. So, instead of trying to set up a South Africa structure, we aim to recognize gifting. So we want to say to different brothers, we see you emerging as apostles, we want to encourage you. But, we want to recognize that you have a gift rather than impose a structure on you.

I want to encourage those men to gather their own teams — to find their Timothys. We want to fan the flame of their gifting, exhort them to go for it, father them, but believe God for their apostolic gifting.

Historically, in what we call Newfrontiers, Terry Virgo was the only person regarded as an apostle since I fathered the movement and started the first churches. I was very reluctant to use the word at all for myself. People used to say to me, "Why don't you make other apostles?" I used to say, I don't know if I am one myself, let alone make anyone else one. We veered to the side of being very reluctant.

As years have gone by we have probably swung too much the other way. We have used the word apostolic as an adjective in a very misty way. We have almost drifted into calling regional leaders apostles. The reality is that regional structures are very helpful, but not every person we have asked to oversee a region demonstrates apostolic gifting. If you formalise regions, you are in great danger of institutionalising so-called apostles. That will never work.

You can just see how the whole bishop structure emerged, can't you?

Yes, and you also get to think of apostles as being responsible for regions, which is almost totally the opposite of what an apostle is. An apostle is a sent one. He is not a maxi-pastor; he has to have freedom to go as that's in his heart, and cannot be over-structured.

I don't want to leave behind a structure which is a shell that uses the labels, but has nothing truly apostolic happening. We have to try to prepare for the next generation. I am pushing late sixties now. I am not going on forever. These are huge issues for us at the moment which we talk a lot about. In recent years we have discussed the implications of my death or retirement. We didn't think Simon would die before me; it was a huge shock. What happened in South Africa has forced the issue for us and been instructive at a time when we are also talking about it theologically and theoretically.

You can never guarantee that you will be saved from institutionalism, but we must do everything in our power to avoid it.

Read more . . . Terry Virgo on the Future

No. 17 on the list of the most-read posts on this blog appeared on April 12, 2006, and was my interview with Dr. Sam Storms. Sam is a well-known Calvinistic charismatic speaker. He writes popular books which express a very similar theology to that of John Piper in an accessible way. His latest book, Signs of the Spirit, is an interpretation of Jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections, and another book, scheduled to be released by Crossway in February, is entitled "The Hope of Glory—100 Daily Meditations on Colossians." It was good to be able to ask Sam some questions via e-mail.

Adrian
It's a delight to welcome Sam Storms of Enjoying God Ministries to the blog today. Sam, to begin with, would you tell us a little bit about yourself, your family, and your ministry?

Sam
Thanks, Adrian. I'm honored that you would want to interview me. I'm 55 years old and have been married to my incredible wife, Ann, for nearly 34 years. I'm a bit surprised you didn't ask the question that so many others have, so I'll come right to the point: Yes, I did propose to her on our first date! I certainly don't recommend that for anyone else. But after 34 wonderful years of marriage, it worked for us (or maybe it worked in spite of that rather impetuous proposal).

I have two daughters. Melanie is 27 and lives in Kansas City with her husband and two sons. What that means is that, much to my surprise, I'm old enough to be married to a grandmother! My other daughter, Joanna, is 21 and is in her third year at Wheaton College, where I taught Theology from 2000 through 2004.

I left Wheaton in 2004 and established Enjoying God Ministries so that I could have more liberty in what I study, write, and teach. I loved Wheaton. Although Wheaton is mainstream evangelical and not even remotely charismatic, they were incredibly kind and generous to me. I had the opportunity to stay there another two years, but felt the Lord was leading us to leave. I describe in some detail in my book, Convergence, how we were led to Wheaton and again back to Kansas City.

Enjoying God Ministries is primarily designed to be a resource to pastors, Christians, and churches everywhere. I've put virtually everything I've ever written on the website (except for books still in print), free for anyone to download and use as they please. I'm traveling extensively and trying to write as much as I can. Crossway will be publishing my revised and expanded book, Chosen for Life: A Defense of Divine Election, later this year. So I'm staying exceedingly busy, to say the least.

Adrian
Can you tell us a bit more about how you came to become a Christian, and how you got into ministry?

Sam
I was raised in a very conservative Southern Baptist home. We lived in Oklahoma and Texas until I moved to Kansas City in 1993. My parents led me to Christ when I was about nine years old. But honestly, I can't recall a time when I didn't know Jesus as my Savior. I know there was a time, but I was immersed in the life and faith of my family and the church from as far back as I can remember.

I had a very distinct and powerful "call" into ministry when I was ten years old. For awhile, in my late teens, I thought I might pursue a career as a professional golfer, but even then I envisioned some form of ministry being tied up in it. My golf career came to a fitting end when I realized that I had too little talent and too much of a bad temper!

Adrian
Who, would you say, has had the biggest influence on you?

Sam
My parents and my sister, first and foremost. I had a wonderful Christian home and family. In terms of spiritual development, two men in particular had a powerful impact on me. Russ McKnight, a lay elder in a church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, profoundly influenced me beginning in my college years. He was the first person to introduce the Reformed faith to me and put up with my Arminianism very patiently. He, more than anyone else, is the reason I'm a Calvinist. Dr. S. Lewis Johnson, who was professor of New Testament, and later Systematic Theology, at both Dallas Theological Seminary and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, had the greatest impact on my overall theological development. But more than that, he provided me with a model of godly excellence in all of life.

As for those still living who've influenced me, certainly John Piper would be at the top of the list. John's personal friendship and theological orientation have been an indescribable blessing. In fact, I'm answering this question as I sit in the airport on my way to preach for him at Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis. John and I first met at a Jonathan Edwards conference in Wheaton back in 1984.

Others whom God has used in my life would include Mike Bickle, Jack Deere, and Wayne Grudem, primarily when it comes to my rejection of cessationism and my broader experience of the Holy Spirit.

As for the distant dead, Jonathan Edwards towers above all others. But there have been others. Calvin, Luther, Owen, the 19th century Princeton theologian, Charles Hodge, 19th century theologian, William G. T. Shedd (I consumed his multi-volume, Theology, while in seminary), and B. B. Warfield. More recently I'd have to point to Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

Read more . . . Interview With Dr. Sam Storms

No. 19 on the list of the most widely read posts on this blog appeared on January 17, 2006, and was a lengthy chat I had with Justin Taylor. Few editors are as well-known as Justin. He has expertise in editing others' writings, highlighting interesting posts around the blogosphere, and creating his own work. He is now an integral part of the Crossway Books team. He is also someone I am pleased to be able to call a friend.

Adrian
It is a real pleasure to be able to welcome to the blog, Justin Taylor, who is known to some as John Piper's right hand man. First off, Justin, perhaps you can tell us all a little bit about yourself and how you came to be working with John Piper.

Justin
Adrian, it's a pleasure to chat with you. Before I answer, let me first express my gratitude for your work in the blogosphere in producing thoughtful edifying material, as well as your work in encouraging and connecting with other bloggers.

About myself? At the risk of boring your readers, I was raised in a Christian family. I first prayed the sinner's prayer at age 4. Then I prayed it again at ages 5, 6, 7, 8, etc. I consider my decisive conversion to be after my freshman year in high school, when I truly understood the nature of Christ's finished work on my behalf.

When I went off to college four years later, I took a humanities course with a professor who would later become my advisor. I was captivated and frustrated with the first lecture—which was a passionate plea for the idea that a belief in moral absolutes was the source of great evil in the world!

I soon became a Study of Religion major, and almost lost my faith in the process. I had never really encountered intellectual arguments against Christianity, and they were now flying at me fast and furious. After one particularly vigorous discussion, based on the implications of Gordon Kaufman's Theology for a Nuclear Age, I remember being pretty shaken. I had no interest in believing a Christianity that wasn't true. Walking back from class, I sat down and leaned against a large tree, staring at the stars and expressing my doubts and confusion to God. God was very kind and merciful to me, and in that moment granted me a sense of peace and assurance. From that point on, I continued with my questions, but I knew that only a fool could deny his Creator.

Thus began an interest for me in apologetics and theology. During the summer break following my freshman year, my friend Matt Perman (now the Internet and radio director at Desiring God) was writing me long letters seeking to persuade me that Calvinism was biblical. In the mail he sent me a tape by John Piper on definite atonement. I was intrigued by the message because Piper was clear, winsome, and intellectually challenging. (My general view of pastors at that time was one of well-meaning anti-intellectuals.) I began listening to more and more Piper tapes.

Our public University of Northern Iowa had about 13,0000 students. By my junior year, 1,000 students a week were attending a weekly Christian meeting. And the interesting thing is that John Piper, along with corollaries like Calvinism and Christian hedonism, became one of the main topics of conversation among the Christian student body.

I made a couple of trips to Bethlehem Baptist Church (just a few hours drive away) to hear Piper preach. One Sunday I was there with my brother. I said to him at one point, "I'd love to just come here for a year or two and hear him preach—even if I had to clean toilets as an excuse to hear the sermons!" I inquired as to whether Bethlehem did apprenticeships, and it turned out that The Bethlehem Institute, a two-year, seminary-level apprenticeship program, was being planned at that time.

When I graduated from UNI in 1998, I applied for TBI. I was the first applicant. Not knowing if any more would apply, I was accepted! So I did an apprenticeship from 1998-2000. And one of my jobs during that time was as a janitor at Bethlehem—cleaning toilets! (I'll let the debate rage in the comments section as to whether my previous utterance in this regard was prophetic!)

In 2000, I was planning to go to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville to complete my MDiv. Piper's editor was asked to take over a church, and thus the job opened up. Desiring God prevailed upon me to stay for just one year. At the end of one year, we had a moving van lined up to take us to Southern. But DG prevailed again, and I've been at DG ever since. In mid-January, however, we'll be moving to Wheaton, Illinois, where I will take a job at Crossway Books as the Managing Editor for the forthcoming ESV Study Bible.

Adrian
You may have seen some discussion about discipleship on my blog following a post by Tim Challies about being jealous of Josh Harris. That inspired my interview with Josh Harris, which focused on his relationship with C. J. Mahaney. I guess it was also part of my motivation behind asking you today. Do you get the impression that your relationship with John is similar to the relationship Josh has with C. J.?

Justin
I'm not sure there are very many people in the world who have a relationship like C. J. and Josh have! One of the differences is that C. J. was specifically grooming and mentoring Josh to step into C. J.'s pastoral role, whereas I was first a student of John's, and then his employee. So our relationship of necessity has looked quite a bit different. John has been a wonderful mentor, friend, and counselor to me. No one has taught me more about the centrality of God in Christ and his supremacy over all things for his glory and the good of his people.

The question most people ask me about John is whether or not he's the real deal. I can say with absolute confidence that he is. What you see is what you get. He lives modestly (he doesn't personally receive a single penny from his book royalties), he is teachable, he is humble, and he goes hard after God. It has been such a privilege and joy to study under him and to work for him these past seven years.

Read more . . . Adrian Interviews Justin Taylor

Photo of Justin Taylor courtesy of Tony S. Reinke, The Shepherd's Scrapbook. Used by permission.

No. 21 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on January 30, 2006, and was my first meeting with Mark Dever. Mark is a great man of God, and was very much the initiator of the set of relationships now described as Together for the Gospel. I interviewed him for a second time in a post entitled "Theology for All—An Interview with Mark Dever," and posted notes from a series of talks he gave in London in September of 2007.

One of the highlights of the year for me has been meeting Mark Dever—so much so that several weeks after this meeting I published a post entitled, "Is Mark Dever an apostle?"

He graciously made space in his schedule for me to interview him face-to-face in spite of the fact that I was unable to hear him preach during his visit to the UK. I had previously reviewed his book, Deliberate Church, so this opporunity to meet the man filled me with eager anticipation. I have also enjoyed his new group blog, Together for the Gospel, which he writes together with C. J. Mahaney, Al Mohler, and Ligon Duncan.

On meeting him, it immediately became clear just how much Mark is a relational guy. At first it felt as if he was the one interviewing me, along with my pastor and friend, Tope! He showed such an interest in our church and in our history that I almost forgot why I was there. He was interested in us as people, and we spent a significant amount of time chatting about church leadership, preaching, and friendships that cross denominational boundaries.

He is a man of humor—when I confessed that of the four guys running Together for the Gospel, Lig was the only one I didn't really know, he laughed and accused Lig of being the "pope of evangelicalism." He rattled off a list of Lig's credentials and jobs, and then finished up by saying something like this:

"It's no wonder you don't know him—after all, he's a Presbyterian! There's a bit of a jump between charismatics and Presbyterians, so he would be the one furthest away from you. And besides, there aren't too many Presbyterians in the UK anyway! Baptists are like cousins to charismatics, and C.J.—well, if you're in Newfrontiers, he must be like an apostolic uncle to you!"

I was impressed that he was aware of the relationship between Newfrontiers and Sovereign Grace, and for that matter, that he had even heard of us—our family of churches is not very large in the US.

I did, however, protest that I know of at least one famous American Presbyterian—David Wayne—and we chatted about how friendships that cross genuine differences of opinion are invaluable to our learning and development as Christians.

Mark was eager to point out that he had learned a lot from the three other guys despite the fact that he is utterly convinced that Lig, in particular, is living in sin over his view of baptism! We had a good laugh about that. I explained to him what I felt was my trump argument—one I had put to David Wayne when we had discussed it online. The argument essentially goes like this. If the Baptist is wrong and the paedobaptist is right, what is the worst possible outcome? Unless you believe in baptismal regeneration and that babies who die unbaptized go to hell, then the worst outcome is that we are unnecessarily delaying baptism for people and as a by-product giving them a chance to remember it happening to them! On the other hand, if we are right and the paedobaptist is wrong, then, as Mark put it, they are in sin and preventing people from obeying a simple and direct command in Scripture. Mark smiled and said, "I used exactly that argument with Lig!"

Read more . . . Adrian Interviews Mark Dever

No. 22 on the list of most widely-read posts on this blog appeared on November 8, 2006, and was the last segment of my seven-part interview with Dr. Albert Mohler.

Dr. Mohler is a phenomenon who, by God's grace, accomplishes more than ten ordinary men could possibly hope to do!

It is a real pleasure to welcome to my blog again today, Dr. Albert Mohler. Dr. Mohler should need no introduction to most of my readers, but I include a link to his biography for any who need to know more, as well as a link to my Together for the Gospel Conference Round Up Post.

This interview is being serialised over several days. So far I have published parts one, two, three, four, five, and six. Today we conclude the interview and discuss one of the most controversial things Dr. Mohler said at Together For the Gospel.

A full version of the interview can be downloaded here.

Adrian

One of the striking things that you said at the conference was that you wanted to put SBTS out of business—what exactly did you mean by that, and what do you think the rest of the board would make of you being successful in that quest?

Dr. Mohler

There is always the danger that my statement will be taken out of context! I do not mean to say that Southern Seminary should cease to exist in the very near future. I emphatically believe that the best and most proper place for the education and preparation of pastors is in the local church. We should be ashamed that churches fail miserably in their responsibility to train future pastors. Established pastors should be ashamed if they are not pouring themselves into the lives of young men whom God has called into the teaching and leadership ministry of the church.

I do believe that there is a role for formal theological education, but we should not be seen as an agency that is assigned the task of training ministers by franchise. I want to assist churches and to assist pastors in training pastors. But, after fourteen years of service in this capacity, I am absolutely certain that the finest theological seminary on earth is absolutely incompetent at replicating the actual life of a gospel congregation. I want to train a generation of pastors who will train pastors, and I want to help them in that task.

Adrian

What would this concept of a seminary in every church look like?

Dr. Mohler

Well, the concept of a seminary in every church would look pretty much like what I just described. As a matter of fact, I think it would look pretty much like what we see in the New Testament, and especially in the relationship between Paul and Timothy. Paul poured himself into Timothy, exhorted him, taught him, corrected him, and entrusted significant ministry to him. Undoubtedly, Paul served as his mentor and model in preaching and teaching and in the leadership functions of ministry. This is what I hope to see develop in healthy gospel churches—a group of young "Timothys" studying under the directed leadership and teaching of a senior pastor. I want to help those churches and those pastors by providing a program of theological education that assists them, working in partnership.

Read more . . . Albert Mohler: Radio Host and Theologian

No. 23 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on January 25, 2007, and was the concluding segment of a conversation I had with Wendy Alsup, a deacon at Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Washington. It was very interesting to get the inside story on what it is like to be a female deacon working at Mark Driscoll's church.

It is a pleasure to welcome to my blog today, Wendy Alsup, who is a member of Mars Hill Church Seattle—led by Mark Driscoll. Wendy is a mother of two, and Deacon in charge of Women's Theology and Training. There has been a lot of controversy about Mark Driscoll in the blogosphere, so I thought it would be great to get an insider's look at what it is like to be a member of the church he leads. For more information see my interview with Mark Driscoll, his blog or the new look Mars Hill Church website – their video section is especially cool. In part 1 we focused on finding out a bit more about Wendy and the church she attends. In part 2 we looked at what Mars Hill does to maintain a sense of community. Part 3 looked at the church’s emphasis on theology. Today I conclude by asking Wendy more about what ministry looks like at Mars Hill.

Adrian
Clearly it sounds like the Bible is highly valued at Mars Hill. It is often said that many churches seem almost as though they have chosen between being a "Word" church or being a "Spirit" church—do you feel that is true in the case of your church?

Wendy
H-m-m-m-m . . . that's curious. That is a very unbiblical concept. When Christ first instructs on the Spirit's coming, he says the Spirit will not speak his own, but will bring to remembrance the teachings of Christ. So the evidence that the Spirit is at work is that Christ, the Logos, is lifted up—which means a true "Spirit" church must be a "Word" church. I think the Spirit is working mightily at Mars Hill because I see Christ's name lifted up and lives transformed, and I know that only happens through the Spirit's quickening.

Adrian