Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus on How To Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we've never said, "We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!"—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same"—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and "cross pollinate." It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we finished by talking a bit about the network of churches of which he is a part. We ended with Rob speaking about a team of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/ teachers. Today we begin by asking Rob what he means by “apostles.”

For more information about the concept of apostles today, see my post "apostles are meant for today," the section of my interview with the leader of Newfrontiers which asks what Terry Virgo means by apostles today. For a response to our view from someone who respectfully disagrees, see when I ask Wayne Grudem about apostles today. Interestingly, some respected cessationists such as Liam Goligher argue that we need something similar to apostles, although presumably he would be less happy with calling them that. You will notice that I have used the word "apostles" with a small "a," even when that is grammatically incorrect. That is because we like to distinguish between the original "Apostles," who were in certain important ways unique, and other "apostles."

Adrian
You used that word “apostolic,” and I’m very aware that some of my readers will wonder, “What do you mean by that?” Can you explain your perspective of what that means?

Rob Rufus
Yes, and I think that is a very good question, because people are asking that, and it really is something people want to have clarity on. Often people think apostles are those who write Scripture, and that if we’re claiming we’ve got apostles today, we claim that the canon of Scripture’s not closed. But as we know, it IS closed, and that [New Testament] Scripture was written only by apostles in the first century. So we have pre-ascension apostles in the Bible and post-ascension apostles. Anyone who believes the Bible is God’s inspired Word will realize there must be apostles around today—they’re not pre-ascension apostles. The pre-ascension apostles are the twelve apostles of the Lamb that were called primarily to be witnesses to the baptism of Jesus, his life, his resurrection. But after Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended on high (Ephesians 4) he gave some to be apostles. So there are post-ascension apostles as well, and he says they will be in the earth until the Church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ. We know the Church is not at the full measure of the stature of Christ currently, so we will need apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the equipping of the believers, the saints, for the work of the ministry until we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God and to the full measure of the stature of Christ. So apostles need to be “until.” That word “until” offers the key word.

Adrian
Yes, very good. I think it’s Matthew Henry who looks at that passage and says something like, “These gifts (or rather some of them) will continue until the end.” It’s an interesting approach, I guess. If the apostles stop, why doesn’t the pastor stop?

Rob Rufus
Exactly! Exactly!

Tope
Yes, absolutely. I think you put it very, very well, and in a very helpful way because, certainly I know that for us, just working as we see the Bible order these things functioning together with apostles in the midst and all the other gifts, it’s been an incredible help. Near the end, it does say he gives these as gifts. He must know that we need these gifts. There’s something very powerful there. Every time we align ourselves with the biblical order that God has put in place, goodness and blessing come out the other end. So we’re all learning this.

Rob Rufus
Very good, Tope! I agree. I agree. I think when people hear of apostles, they kind of think of some sort of hierarchy and almost a controlling dictator-type where apostles are self-appointed and really think they are the big bosses of the church, you know, but actually Paul says, “We, the apostles, come at the end of the line.” There is nothing dictatorial, although Paul was incredibly anointed in such power and theology and revelation, he came amongst the churches like a father—he said almost like a nursing mother to the Thessalonians. And he speaks about of his affection for them and his friendship for them, and the care for the churches. So there is a hierarchy there. But Paul wouldn’t even put the word “apostle” in front of his name. He always put it behind his name: “Paul, called to be an apostle.” He is saying “apostle” is not my title, it’s my job description. So you’ll never see the word “apostle” in front of Paul’s name, or any of the guy’s names. Even at home, I like to say to people, “Look, I’m Rob, called to be a pastor to you.” Pastor is my job description; it’s not my title. People say, “I’ve got to call you “Pastor Rob” because that’s a sign of respect.” And I say, “Well, then, I’ve got to call you Mechanic Henry. Or Housewife Jill." I don’t show you respect by calling your job description as your title. I think every sincere person who loves the Scriptures—we need to say the Bible plus nothing, the Bible minus nothing—and we build our theology, our church practice—not only our doctrine of Hebrews 6: faith, repentance, you know, all of the doctrine. But the government, the way church is governed, needs to come back to Scripture as well.

Adrian
Yes, and I think that’s so right. It seems like, I guess it’s almost like we have blind spots—where we want the Bible up to this point, but no further. I guess church history is a bit like that—you look back in church history and you see some of these guys in the past, and you think, “How could you see so much great stuff and not this?!”

Rob Rufus
Yes! Very good! Yes! Yes!

Tope
I think the real enemy just tries to blind us and stop us from seeing certain things and living in the good of certain things. But God is still on the throne and seeking to bring recovery to everything.

When you talk about Paul there, and his movement in church planting—you’ve moved now from South Africa and you find yourself . . . where do you find yourself these days? (Laughter)

Rob Rufus
Well, we planted a church in South Africa and led it for twelve years, handed it over, and then we re-located to Australia to help Dudley, who started the NCMI family of churches and apostolic team. We worked with him there for thirteen years. He actually handed the church over to me and he headed to the United States for awhile—for a number of years—so I led that church for seven years and then handed the church over to Tyrone Daniel, who is Dudley’s son. And then for three years we traveled full-time internationally equipping and training churches in evangelism, and signs and wonders, and doing crusades around the world. And then God spoke very clearly and said, “I want you to go plant a church in Hong Kong,”—which was a real challenge to me because I don’t speak Cantonese or Putonghua, which is Mandarin. But we very clearly heard the call to go. So we started with five people in Hong Kong—no one knew us, knew our history! But God has blessed us here. In three years we have seen local Chinese people saved and added, so we are enjoying it and beginning to move into the China mainland as well and help plant churches in the mainland.

Adrian
Praise God! That’s really great. So, within your family of churches, is that quite an unusual thing to go church planting? I mean, do you just have a few churches or what?

Rob Rufus
We’ve been going from probably the mid-80’s, so it is just over twenty years, and a number of guys and girls together on teams are relocating, planting churches internationally. And more and more we do want it to have a total indigenous flavour. We don’t want it to be—we’re not exporting South African culture that’s for sure! We want it to be Kingdom culture, so when the culture of the country we go to is consistent with the Kingdom culture, those elements of the culture, we say let’s celebrate that. But where the culture contradicts the culture of the Kingdom, then the Christians need to make the adjustments to conform to the culture of the Kingdom. So, yeah, there is that spearheading—more and more people going into different nations and planting, but we also kind of plant and parent. There are churches out there going—we really need to be connected with an apostolic team that can help us build foundation into the life of our churches We never own those churches, but work as friends with those churches through the invitation of the leaders— only through invitation of the leaders. There is no headquarters that says, “We own you and you’re just another statistic. If you don’t line up with us, then we’ll take your building, kick you out”—none of that! We don’t own any buildings. The local church is the highest governing authority; they own their buildings. We build friendship with them and relationship, so we also have had, over those twenty years, probably (we don’t know, you gotta be careful) I’m going to say some thousands of churches, but that represents throughout most of Africa, we have churches. In one year we had 500 churches planted in Malawi alone, but it just happens in Africa. It just happens. But in the Western world, no, we don’t have thousands; we’re talking hundreds in the Western world.

Continued in part 5 . . .

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we focused on Word and Spirit. Today I begin by asking Rob what steps readers who are intrigued by the charismatic experience should take.

Adrian
One of the things I find is that quite a few of the readers of my blog out there—they love the Word, they are Reformed folk—but they are a little bit bemused to discover that there are a ton of us [charismatics] who love the Word in the same way. Actually, a lot of them are quite drawn in, but they just don’t know quite how to make that connection. Perhaps they don’t live in a town where there’s a group they can go to. Maybe they’ve even been burnt by some of these “charismaniacs” we’ve talked about. What would you say to them? They’re sitting at home and are a bit intrigued, a bit fascinated. They want more, but know they haven’t really connected with the Spirit in that way.

Rob Rufus
Yes. Well, I would say—stay with the Scriptures. Never ever dilute or compromise your love for the Word of God! That is our foundation; that’s the bedrock. Then I would just invite the Holy Spirit to come, the Spirit of truth, because he breathed the Scriptures! They are God-breathed by the Spirit himself. Ask the Holy Spirit to come and just touch you and begin to lead you. And He will, because he really is faithful and wonderful. And then with technology today, this access to speakers around the world like the New Frontiers guys who talk about the Holy Spirit, but from a wonderful biblical place. I mean, I don’t think this fear today that the counterfeit, that the devil—and [the Bible] does warn in the last days there will be counterfeit signs, wonders, and miracles—but it doesn’t say that the ONLY signs, wonders, and miracles in the last day will be counterfeit. So if there is counterfeit, it means that the genuine will be there, and we need to find the genuine. We really need to find the genuine.

Adrian
Thanks for that. Just going back a minute then. There you were, coming—Calvinistic, charismatic, or if you prefer, Reformed Charismatic. (I always think the term “reformed charismatic” is funny because it makes it sound like we’re kind of an ex-charismatic group, doesn’t it?) (Section unclear because of loud laughter.) But you obviously did become part of a family of churches—you’re not part of New Frontiers, but you’re part of something—I think it’s New Covenant Ministries? Have I got that right?

Rob Rufus
Yes, New Covenant Ministries International.

Adrian
And I guess that’s a fairly similar group of churches to New Frontiers? Is that right? That’s my understanding.

Rob Rufus
Yes, very similar. We’ve got so much that is so close. Our DNA is so similar that I feel like I’m at home. I’ve got to realize, okay, yeah, I’m part of the family, you know. It just feels so similar.

Adrian
So, how did New Covenant Ministries International come about? Tell us a little bit about the history of that.

Rob Rufus
Sure. It was back in the early 1980’s when God was really moving in ways, I think, across the world, and particularly in South Africa (we were based in South Africa). My friend who actually mentored me, and fathered and birthed NCMI—his church grew explosively. And whatever happens, you know, whenever you have some success, pastors around the country want you to come and tell them about it.

Adrian
So who was that? What was his name?

Rob Rufus
It’s Dudley Daniel. He started traveling around South Africa and teaching about what made his church grow. Then God spoke to him one day on the plane and said, “It’s wonderful what you’re doing—you’re blessing pastors and that, but do you want to spend the rest of your life just blessing, or do you also want to help pastors build the Church?” Because blessings are short-lived, but if you build well, you can sustain the blessing. And God began to speak to Dudley about finding biblical patterns—what are the biblical wineskins? How were churches really governed in the New Testament? He began to see that there were some traditions that we had inherited that were not in line with Scripture, done by very sincere, good leaders. So he began to relate this to some friends. He threw his home open on a Monday, and pastors that were alone, looking for friendship, started coming and relating. And out of that came a kind of a motto that we developed: “Friendship before function.” We have a function into the earth, but we want to be friends; we want to do it with friends relationally, like Jesus did with his guys, his friends. (Too much laughter to hear what is being said here.) God showed us that we are the offspring of Abraham, and that we are (unclear) forces—we’re the heirs of the world. And that from the seed of Abraham God wanted to make the blessing to all nations! So the Great Commission really just complements the oath God took to Abraham—God took an oath that all nations would be blessed. When you take an oath, it’s—what’s the word I want to say?

Tope
Binding?

Rob Rufus
Yeah, binding. So God bound himself to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham. So if the Church balks on that, or hinders it, or stands against it, then God will precipitate a crisis, like he did with Jonah to get the Gospel to Nineveh. So we realized that God was calling us to go to the nations, and we built—with a national team of friends, we developed a mixture of prophetic, apostolic evangelists, teachers, pastors, etc.

Continued in part 4 . . .

As we drew to the close of part one of this interview with Rob Rufus we were emphasizing the need for charismatics to continue to value the Bible. Today we begin with a question my pastor, Tope Koleoso, asked. This is a lightly edited transcript of what was actually said.

Tope
I’ve got to say, I agree with you. Definitely for me in listening to all the sessions that you did, and for us as a church, having taken so many to this conference, and also as a pastor, having the privilege of speaking with other pastors—the response that I’ve been hearing back, certainly from my own perspective, has been that in the talks there has been a depth of theology, not just the push of an experience; there has been this depth of theology as the verses and the references have come out, but you have also told us of the experiences—what this would look like and what God can do. And beyond you describing this, we also saw what God did among us. So those two sides then—the Word and the Spirit—I would say we saw that, but I would say we also saw—I could put it this way—the Lion and the Lamb. There was a real confidence in the way I thought the talks came across, but also the gentility of getting to know the Person of the Holy Spirit. And I wondered—is this something that you’ve always had? Is it a style of preaching that you developed or what?

Rob Rufus
That’s an outstanding question, Tope. As I mentioned in the conference, before I became a Christian I was a Hare Krishna. I was practicing strict Hinduism very aesthetically. One of the things that attracted me to Christianity was that when I went to a meeting where the power of God was being manifested—where cripples were walking and deaf ears were opening and the power of God was there—it made me realize that Christianity can never be reduced just to a philosophy, but it has to declare that Jesus is alive; He is a risen living Saviour. So I came into the kingdom of heaven through seeing the supernatural—I was birthed in the miraculous. But then I had mentors that loved the Scriptures as well. We were kind of like charismatic Calvinists, in other words we had reformed theology of the sovereignty of God and the attributes of God and the awesomeness and the transcendence of God and the love for Scripture. But along with that was this recognition that Paul, one of the greatest apostles and one of the greatest theologians you could ever imagine—raised the dead. He moved in signs and wonders, the supernatural. So I think it’s fraudulent to say we are walking in a New Testament apostolic life if all we are is into the Spirit because that gets quite unusual and flaky and unhealthy after awhile. Or it’s fraudulent to say, “I’m apostolic; I’m into the Word of God, but we don’t have a demonstration of power. Paul had both, and I think that’s what good theology is. I mean, Jesus was the theologian of theologians, and he said to someone—you’re wrong because you don’t know the Scriptures AND the power of God. So he married the Word of God and the Scriptures together.

Adrian
Very good! Very good! So for you, growing up into that whole kind of charismatic Calvinist thing, you sort of laughed when you said it. Did you feel like you were a bit of an oddity? Were you aware there were others out there like that? Or was there just a small group of you and you felt a bit weird? Because that was our experience!

Rob Rufus
Adrian, that’s exactly how we felt! I got saved in 1977, I think, so it was the tail end of the hippie movement. We all had long hair and all of that stuff, and yet with the gifts of the Spirit in operation, we would do expository preaching right through the Bible. We would study books at a time—go through the book of Hebrews chapter by chapter.

Adrian
So your preaching wasn’t always like it was this week?

Rob Rufus
(Loud laughter) Of course not! I was inducted into Christianity through expository preaching, and that wasn’t me; it was my mentor.

Adrian
So you do that kind of expository preaching yourself?

Rob Rufus
I do occasionally. I have been in the church plant in Hong Kong for three years and I haven’t done a book yet in expository form. But we will. That is something I do. But in the middle of all that expository teaching, there were gifts of the Spirit—very passionate outreach and evangelism in the streets. So reformed denominations for whom I have great respect (I really do) who love the Scriptures—they couldn’t quite work us out. We were a bit of a strange case! We were charismatic Calvinists. And yet I feel like in today’s world, I think what’s happening is that a lot of committed evangelical people who love Jesus, who love the Scriptures, are suddenly to their relief, finding out that people who are full of the Spirit and know the supernatural power of God love the Scriptures as well. And I believe it’s giving them a sense that a bridging is taking place. I think, too, that those people who are moving in the power of God and love the Scriptures—we need to be humble and realize that evangelicals have a rich legacy that we can learn from, and I think we can enrich each other.

Continued in part 3 . . .

A few months ago it was my privilege to interview Rob Rufus. The audio version of that interview is available online, but thanks to two readers (Dan Bowden and a friend of Andrew Fountain) who both sent me transcripts of the MP3 lately, I am now able to publish the text version. It has only been lightly edited, so please do forgive us any grammatical errors that come from this being a conversation rather than careful writing. If you want to listen to the interview, the MP3 is available to download on the original post.

Adrian
The Together on a Mission conference has just ended, but I’m here, together with my pastor, Tope, and we’re here with Rob Rufus. Rob is going to talk to us a little bit about how the conference has been for him, and tell us a little bit more about his own church and his own family of churches, and just really share with us about that. So he’s kindly agreed to sit down—he’s probably a bit tired—but we’re going to have a good time, hopefully, this afternoon. So, Rob, first of all, how has this conference been for you?

Rob Rufus
I think it’s been very staggering and astonishing in a delightful way because what I experienced here was almost like the reward of the fruit of a number of years of New Frontiers preparing themselves, building a good wineskin. And by “wineskin” I mean the kind of authority structures we build the church with—biblical values and biblical vision. We are now positioned to really see God come in an amazing way. So I felt there was such a liberty and an openness to God’s visitation, to the supernatural of God, and I think a lot of that’s got to do with the understanding that the churches have on the theology of grace—the understanding of grace—and the security that we have in Christ. So, it’s been an incredibly enlarging time here; just the spirit of faith among the people, the sense of a global vision, and yet doing it together as a team, doing it together in a sense of partnership. So, for me, the overall sense of the ethos and the atmosphere was one of a group of people very zealous, very passionate, full of vision, yet who haven’t kissed their brains goodbye, well-grounded in good theology, sound doctrine, open to the power of the Holy Spirit, and real people who are really friendly with one another and enjoy one another’s company, and that’s been a delight.

Adrian
Excellent! Yeah, and it’s been great. Obviously, one of the features of this conference has been your own preaching, Rob. I just wonder for those who have not been at the conference, and perhaps have been following the blogs—how would you summarize your key message, just in a couple of sentences, of this conference—what you’d like people to take away, because, to be honest, taking notes hasn’t been that easy! (Loud laughter) Well, you could say that!

Rob Rufus
Yes, absolutely! I mean, I’m the worst person for writing notes myself, and then, of course, for people to be able to pick up notes, because I tend to be more spontaneous and impromptu. Probably what I’d like people to primarily take away in a few sentences is that, of course, God is turning up the supernatural—the volume of the demonstration of his power—not just for the sake of sensationalism for us to find ourselves popular or famous because of that, but because he wants to be glorified in the world, he wants to get the world’s attention. The primary essence I would like people to take away is that we don’t seek primarily the power of God, but we seek the person of God. We seek who he is, his glory. Because his power is what he does, but his glory and his presence is who he is, and that’s the only thing that will fulfill people—to know him personally. That sense of intimacy is such a delight; it gives us that fulfillment. Out of that he hides his power within his presence so you can live a supernatural life in a natural way because you’re not having to fast forty days to get the power—you can just walk with the person of God in intimacy and he releases his power out of that relationship with himself.

Adrian
Yes. I guess that some Christians sitting at home listening to this—I mean, I get readers on my blog from all kinds of different backgrounds—they’re going to listen to that and think, “What is this guy talking about? A relationship with God? I thought we just had a relationship with a Book!” What would you say to those kinds of people?

Rob Rufus
Well, it’s like—when I met my wife for the first time I was at university so I couldn’t spend time with her because the university was in a different city. So during the first six months, I could only see her every second or third weekend. We corresponded in those days—it was a long enough time ago it was by letters, not e-mails!—(loud laughter) and although her letters were perfumed and I loved reading her letters, I didn’t have a love relationship primarily with her letters, but with the author of the letters. So I longed to get to see the person who was writing the letter and meet her. So the Bible is, in a sense, perfumed with the presence of God—it’s God-breathed; it’s really his love letter to us. It’s an introduction for us to get to know the Author of the Book. That’s the delight!

Adrian
Yes, very good! So you are not one of those “charismaniacs” who want to throw out the Bible then, Rob?

Rob Rufus
Absolutely not, Adrian! That, I think, is the tragedy. Sadly the charismatics or Pentecostals (to some degree, not all!) have been known as a people who are kind of going on a binge of subjectivity. It’s all self-indulgent. You have got to have theological references to make sure that the supernatural experiences you are having are authentic because we do have the counterfeit in the world today; we do have deception in the world today. The Bible is the foundation that authenticates that we are having legitimate miraculous encounters with God.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Trevin Wax has interviewed Tom Wright. A manuscript and audio are both available. Of particular interest is the following short section from Wright on Piper. Would that all our theological sparring partners could speak this way about us

"Piper is in a different category. He graciously sent me an advance manuscript of his book which is critiquing me and invited my comments on it. I sent him a lengthy set of comments. I’ve only just got on email about two days ago the book in the revised form and I haven’t had a chance to look at it yet. So I cannot say whether he’s being fair or not at this stage.

But I do know that he has done his darndest to be fair and I honor that and I respect that. People have asked me if I’m going to write a response, and the answer is that I don’t know. I’m kind of busy right now. But I maybe should, sooner or later."

In this, the final segment of my interview with Greg Haslam, Greg discusses being reformed and charismatic, Terry Virgo's spiritual influence on the church in the UK, and the role of the organization Terry heads up, Newfrontiers.

If you missed any of the other four parts of this interview, you can read them here:

1. Greg Haslam on Filling Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Pulpit
   
   
2. Greg Haslam on Leaving Newfrontiers for Westminster Chapel
   
   
3. Greg Haslam on the Primacy of Preaching
   
   
4. Greg Haslam on Unity Versus Doctrinal Integrity

Adrian
You combine an interest in the charismatic and reformed doctrine. I know that many of my US readers still find that combination hard to comprehend. Do you find that people look at you strangely sometimes from both sides, or do you feel that, in the UK at least, the wider Church understands it nowadays?

Greg
I sense that this combination of “Word and Spirit” is no longer the issue it was for many. The heat and dust seems to have settled on the controversies of the 1960's to 1990's, and many have gone back to the Bible, seen good practice in many churches, and agreed, “You were right!” As I said previously, I am convinced many more will come to the same conclusion and we shall reach “unity in the faith” on this matter. People still look at me strangely, but probably for other reasons I need to do something about!

Adrian
It seems to me that Newfrontiers, and Terry Virgo in particular, seem to be a growing force in the UK church scene that seems to, in part, change the perception most people have of the charismatic. So, unlike in the US, if one says the word “charismatic,” people increasingly think of a Newfrontiers church they know. Do you think that is a valid perception?

Greg
Terry Virgo is one of the most important Christian leaders God has raised up in the last thirty years. No wonder amazing doors continue to open for him and his message to the Church! He is wise, humble, full of grace, and a man of astonishing faithfulness and vision. Significantly, he is an outstanding prophetic voice and a remarkable Bible teacher. He combines Word and Spirit in striking ways, teaching truth in depth and seeing miracles accompany it, and he has influenced thousands of people around the world to model the same authentic Christianity we read of in the book of Acts. We're told by Christ to judge teachers “by their fruits” (Matthew 7). I've seen what Terry and his associates have built first-hand. I have been part of it. It is very impressive. It is not marked by the boasting, hype, self-serving, and exploitation that other leaders and movements have floundered on. When I say “Charismatic” he and his movement is what I most think of. It's biblical and dynamic in equal measure. Why divorce what God always meant to be together?

Adrian
As someone with a slightly more detached status these days, how do you see Newfrontiers, or for that matter other similar groups developing in the future?

Greg
I see them interfacing, interlacing, and having an increasingly beneficial influence upon one another, thus fostering greater unity in the wider body of Christ. If that doesn't happen, we might rightly ask, “What was that all about then?”

Adrian
One question no one seems to ask is what will Newfrontiers look like after Terry Virgo—not that he seems likely to go anywhere for some time to come! The Vineyard Movement seemed to struggle a little after the death of John Wimber. Do you think Newfrontiers will have a similar struggle in years to come?

Greg
Possibly. Under God, Terry has been the “father” of the movement in every respect. I don't know if an evident successor has emerged as yet. But Terry has never sought to hold things to himself. He has raised up like-minded leaders of stature. He has released them to “do their stuff” all over the world. He is not possessive. He believes in Church unity. He is a blessing to many outside Newfrontiers. Young leaders are emerging everywhere you look and church plants and adoptions increase by the week, with many Ephesians 4 ministries being released to serve them. I don't see this movement collapsing should Terry retire or be taken home. He has built too well. Only demonic attack, heresy, or some kind of character failure on the part of his followers could jeopardize all he has built, but many safeguards are in place to help prevent this.

Adrian
What do you think the wider Church will look like thirty years from now? Will existing denominations and groups of churches be intact? Will there still be the same arguments that divide us now?

Greg
I am pretty sure that intellectual, religious, social, and political persecution is emerging in our nation right now and will increase in the future. Arrests, imprisonment, and even martyrdoms could occur. Some loose unaffiliated churches and failed denominations will likely go to the wall. As the darkness deepens, it means that there is every possibility the light will become brighter. Christians will find each other, and find Christ more powerful among them, and then will find the courage to do and say the right things in spite of the pressure to panic or compromise. We can, and shall, make great progress in the conversion of dangerous false religionists, and among many who will be disillusioned with the failure of governments and other faiths to “give the goods.” Evolutionism, secularism, atheism, and religious syncretism will all be exposed for their lies. Truth will prevail and error cannot hold out forever.

Adrian
Well, Greg, it has been a pleasure to have you here. But before you go, do you have anything else you would like to say to my readers?

Greg
“Be who you is, ‘cos if you ain’t who you is, you is who you ain’t!”

Adrian
Thanks so much for joining us!

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Today we continue with the fourth part of my interview with Greg Haslam, pastor of Westminster Chapel in London (pictured here with his wife, Ruth). The previous three parts of this interview included an introduction to Greg and his ministry, on leaving Newfrontiers for Westminster Chapel, and Haslam on the primacy of preaching.

Adrian
Yesterday we spoke of the remarkable advance for church unity that your preaching conference represented. Despite the unity displayed in your conference and book, there were surely doctrinal differences that divided your collection of speakers, and even more issues that separate the rest of the Church. You obviously decided that you could work with a wide range of people. How do you weigh different issues on which you disagree, and decide which differences are important enough that you would not want to share a platform with someone?

Greg
Having a big heart for the unity God is looking for helps greatly (see John 17 and Ephesians 4:1-16). I suppose that order distinctions are helpful here: first-order truths and second-order truths. We cannot compromise the former, and we can learn to live with the latter. The first category includes the reality of an infinite-personal God, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the Holy Spirit, as well as the doctrines of salvation, atonement, regeneration, adoption, justification, sanctification, and glorification. The latter includes denominational differences, ecclesiology, styles of worship, church order, and eschatology. Meldenius' advice is good: “In all things essential, unity. In all things non-essential, liberty. In all things, charity.”

Adrian
What issues are facing the Church today where you feel you have to say you cannot work closely with someone who thinks differently to you?

Greg
Some of the things that most concern me are the ever present realities and influence of liberal theology and the attractions of Roman Catholicism in its worst forms. Recent controversies over penal substitution and the atonement are due to a rehash of 19th century liberalism as if this battle had never been fought before. I can be cordial with such people and make bridges so that the Gospel can be heard, but I wouldn't like to pretend or give the impression that our differences are minor, for they are not. I'm also alarmed by our frequent willingness to bed down with “the spirit of the age” and ignore the fact that this is the “Age of the Spirit.” We are never more relevant than when we obey the Holy Spirit's leadings and declare the Bible in all of its raw power.

Adrian
How should the Christian approach people who take these views?

Greg
In humility that we were once deceived about the truth ourselves, and charity that has a care and compassion for those who are presently misled. We needn't be humble or apologetic about the truth itself, though, nor muted in voicing what we really think. It is nasty and negative polemics we should avoid. But we should be very clear about where we stand on controversial issues.

Adrian
Given the doctrinal disputes and the press coverage about shrinking church attendance, are you depressed about the future of the Church in the UK?

Greg
No, I am not depressed about the future of the Church anywhere. Christ wins! The Church will still be here when everything else has gone. The best days of Church history lie ahead of us. Worldwide revivals will sweep the continents. Many have already happened or begun. This is the “Age of the Spirit,” and “The Holy Spirit will never allow the blasphemy to be voiced against his name that he was unable to convert the world!” (C. H. Spurgeon). I am at heart a great optimist where the Gospel and the work of God is concerned. Setbacks are never permanent, only temporary. Britain is in a state of apostasy at this time, and culpable for her rejection of history, the Bible, and the honor of Christ, and for her contempt for Christ's people. But this is no problem for God to remove and reverse. It's what I'm praying, preaching, and working for. “Of the increase of Christ's government and peace, there shall be no end” (Isaiah 9).

Adrian
I am glad to hear it! What are your hopes and dreams for the UK church in the next decade or so?

Greg
I long for several key things:

1. A recovery of the Gospel.
   
   
2. A renewed faith in the inspiration and authority of Scripture.
   
   
3. An increase in the honor of the Holy Spirit and his work to glorify Christ.
   
   
4. An increase in the number of healthy churches and church plants everywhere.
   
   
5. A respect and reception of Ephesians 4 ministries, increasing unity in the true Body of Christ.
   
   
6. Massive missional emphasis in the churches.
   
   
7. Genuine Holy Spirit reformation, renewal, restoration, and revival in the lives of the people of God . . . all fired by an “eschatology of victory,” not an “eschatology of escapology” which the Left Behind series of novels seems to have generated!

Continued in part five, "Greg Haslam on Being Reformed and Charismatic"

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Today I continue with part three of my interview with Greg Haslam. In part one, Greg told us a little about himself, and in part two he discussed his relationship to Newfrontiers and his move to Westminster Chapel.

Adrian
If Westminster Chapel has stood for anything over the years it is surely the primacy of preaching. Can you tell us a bit more about your own view of preaching and its importance?

Greg
I've said it all in the collection of fifty-two addresses from our Preachers' Conference, now published as Preach the Word! (Sovereign World 2006). Preaching is primary because, along with dependence on the work of the Holy Spirit, just about everything else that's good in the Church and in individual lives flows from it. Done well, through accurate explanation and application of the Scriptures in Spirit-empowered preaching, God's voice is heard, God's people obey him, and incredible life in the Spirit is the certain result. We live at a time of increasing Biblical illiteracy among even lively evangelical Christians. Sick churches are all too numerous. Christians are ignorant of their faith and often too cowardly to defend and share it with others. Preaching goes a long way to remedy these things.

I believe we need to see restored to the Church every “flavor” of word-ministry listed in Ephesians 4:11ff—apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral, and didactic—so that our people are theologically well-informed, compassionate, skilled, missional, cutting edge, and truly well-grounded. When we pray for revival we are primarily praying for preachers and a new visitation of the Holy Spirit. Preaching should disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed! It's not “any old style of preaching” we need; it is the living voice of Christ speaking his “now word” to his Church. This is why the prophetic dimension to good preaching is essential, whether the preacher is an evangelist, a pastor, a teacher, an apostle, or a prophet, and I believe in the present-day ministry of all five (see my chapter “Ephesians 4 ministries and Church Unity” in Preach the Word!).

Adrian
What do you feel about the state of preaching in the Church as a whole today? Are you encouraged or discouraged?

Greg
Mostly discouraged. Sermons seem to represent some form or expression of “Christianity Lite.” They are short, trendy, adrift from the serious handling of Scripture, apologetic, flirting with post-modernism, fearful of any note of authority, caught up with the “spirit of the age,” often “politically correct,” and mostly ineffective. We tend to sound like the “Court prophets” of Israel in the pay of the king, rather than those who have “been in the counsel of the Most High” and then dare to speak what we have seen and heard! Preaching should convey a sense of awe and fear in the presence of a transcendent God — not just God all-matey but God Almighty!

It was due to my growing perception of the perilous state of preaching in the UK that I gathered nineteen of the best preachers this country has to offer in order to speak at the eight-month conference Preach the Word! in 2003-2004. The result more than met my expectations, and the 650 delegates who enthusiastically attended seemed to share my opinion!

I took less than an hour to plan the contents. I wrote over fifty themes we should address and then picked about twenty top guys to address them. All but two accepted, and what a brilliant job they did! We had outstanding pastors, evangelists, prophets, teachers, and apostles. I basically urged them not to go to their graves along with all of their best secrets! They came up with the goods and shared brilliantly their best insights into preaching and how to do it well. The speakers included many personal heroes like John Stott, Terry Virgo, David Pawson, and Jeff Lucas. In fact, most of them are my much admired friends. I receive testimonies regularly, from home and overseas, as to just how effective this material has proved to be. The event was a true Word and Spirit gathering, and all of our lives were changed by it.

Adrian
How did you manage to bring together such a wide variety of preachers for this conference and book? Did you find that you all agreed about preaching, or did you have a wide range of differing perspectives to discuss?

Greg
They were nearly all extremely enthusiastic and willing to do this. They ranged from fairly conservative evangelicals, through radical charismatics. There were Anglicans, Free Churches, Charismatics, and Restorationists. Some were Arminian, others Calvinistic in theology, and all points in-between. Between them all, there was an accumulation of hundreds of years of experience in leading and preaching ministry (perhaps thousands of years!). They all got on well together, and the atmosphere of each day was terrific. They had differing emphases, but all honored God and the Bible, and all were convinced about the importance and centrality of preaching. The wide range of perspectives present was what made this conference somewhat unique and so invaluable. It fostered the kind of unity I believe in. And some people changed their prejudices, and their minds, on some controversial issues as a result.

Adrian
Can you tell us a bit more about the main message of your book and why my readers should go out and buy it?

Greg
The main message is this: “We need better preaching, biblical preaching, Holy Spirit anointed preaching, effective preaching, with signs following. And here are some big clues as to how this can happen.” What more could you ask?

Continued in part four, "Greg Haslam On Unity Versus Doctrinal Integrity."

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Today I continue the interview with Greg Haslam which began yesterday in a post entitled “Greg Haslam on Filling Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Pulpit.”

Adrian
Yesterday you mentioned your previous church, which is a part of Newfrontiers. You still speak at Newfrontiers conferences, but your current church isn’t listed as a member. What exactly is your relationship with Newfrontiers, both personally and as a church?

Greg
Westminster Chapel has been a fairly unique and decidedly independent kind of place, with a significant influence on the wider church, primarily through the preaching and books of its ministers. It's probably time that this independence became inter-dependence on other streams and ministries. This is on my heart to achieve in the years ahead. These connections are likely to be varied since I've always been keen on unity in the church, and want to live out that conviction. This will mean friendships with all kinds of leaders and people, and openness to receive a wide diversity of ministry from outside as God leads.

Newfrontiers was always primarily about relationships rather than “names on a list” or being part of an organization. My relationships continue whenever time and opportunity permit. I value my dear friends in Newfrontiers, and still attend their Theology Forum, teach some of their leadership training courses, take part in the Brighton Leaders Conference, and preach at Newfrontiers churches whenever I can. The warmth of old friends is always incredible whenever I meet them!

I can't tell you how much I miss Newfrontiers! I relish any contact I have with Terry Virgo and other apostolic and prophetic guys. The Chapel hosts a monthly Newfrontiers London pastors’ gathering, which I attend whenever I can. The Chapel views Newfrontiers very positively indeed now, and we've had many of their leaders preach here. Yet I remain officially outside of that movement, in line with all God told me to do five years ago. This has led to many new and wonderful friendships with top leaders and great movements around the country, as well as opportunities to serve the wider body through church visits and ministry of the Word at major denominational and church-stream conferences. I am convinced that the wider body of Christ, including many evangelicals who ignored or allowed previous moves of the Holy Spirit to bypass them from the 1960's onwards, are going to be caught up in a new visitation of God—soon! I speak to this matter whenever I can, and I have just written two new books to help foster new openness to God in whatever way I can, and to help leaders to make sense of what God is going to do—A Radical Encounter with God (New Wine Press, October 2007) and Moving in the Prophetic (Monarch Publications, April 2008).

Continued in part three, "Greg Haslam On The Primacy of Preaching."

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

It is a pleasure to welcome to my blog, Greg Haslam, who is the current successor to Martyn Lloyd-Jones at Westminster Chapel in London.

Adrian
To begin with Greg, can you tell us a bit about yourself?

Greg
I am a 'scouser,' born in Liverpool in 1953, who lived in a rough area of the city called Bootle (where the kids played 'tic' with hatchets). I came from a broken home, with much sadness due to my parents' marital breakdown and eventual divorce when we children were still very young. It was persistent school friends who later told me fully about Christ. I attended a Billy Graham big-screen Gospel crusade relay to Liverpool on June 30, 1967, and after a big emotional struggle with doubt and many fears that Christ would not have me (the scars of rejection were still there from the break-up of my parents’ marriage and the lack of a father's love), I came to faith in Christ that night. That was 40 years ago! My whole world and life-direction dramatically changed, and interest in theology was stirred soon after with input from my new Baptist church radical youth leaders. Two years later, at the Keswick Convention, listening to a fairly young John Stott on II Timothy (four hours of amazing teaching), I felt the call to become a preacher. This started, remarkably, within twelve months of that Keswick convention in that I was invited to preach at an independent Methodist church and became a regular on their circuit as a ‘the boy preacher’ on a Honda 50!

Not long after, I met and married my wife, Ruth, and we now have three amazing adult sons who are all serving Christ. The eldest two, James and Andrew, are marred (a doctor and a pastor) and the third, Joshua, is studying Philosophy at UCL. We have one gorgeous granddaughter from James and Emily. Andrew has just started work at the Chapel leading our 18’s to 30's ministry.

I studied Theology and History at Durham and the London Theological Seminary (Dr. Lloyd-Jones' new venture in ministerial training), and I became pastor of Winchester Family Church (later to be part of Newfrontiers) at age 27. I stayed there for twenty-one years until my move to Westminster Chapel in 2002. My interests include all kinds of books (of course!), movies (especially gritty westerns, war movies, and thrillers), good food, good music, philosophy and culture, apologetics, writing, speaking, and motorcycling.

Adrian
How did you come to be preaching in one of the world’s most famous pulpits? What was the journey like? What is it like to be the successor to men like Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones and Dr. R. T. Kendall?

Greg
My journey as a pastor in Winchester (1980—2002) was a hard learning curve which included making the transition from hard-line Reformed theology that either ignored the Holy Spirit to a criminal degree or resisted him; through my own experience of baptism in the Spirit, desperation for change in the church I pastored, a fresh vision of what church can and ought to be; to the embrace of a full-blown Word and Spirit theology and ecclesiology, along with an optimistic post-millennial eschatology and a restorationist/revivalist view of the Gospel of God's kingdom with its total world and life view.

Westminster Chapel's fame worldwide is deservedly based upon its ministers' loyalty to Scripture and faithful declaration of it, an influence that has spanned the world throughout the 20th century. My predecessor, Dr. R. T. Kendall, wrote to me in late 2000. He was looking for a successor who was 'a preacher, Reformed, open to the Spirit, and pastoral in heart' (PROP for short!). He was convinced I was the man. I was very happy where I was in Winchester, but I dared not ignore the 'call' that was coming to me to consider a move. I instantly felt that God's hand was upon this. Unfortunately, key figures in the Chapel were not all convinced! There was resistance to having a Newfrontiers man there. The exploration process took a whole year. That year, God gave me over fifty personal prophecies that made it clear I would be going there, mostly from men who knew nothing about what was afoot. I also experienced some very special days 'preaching with a view' at the Chapel. I guessed God knew that I would need this level of divine affirmation! I was eventually called. This meant that with great sadness for both myself and my wife, we had to leave Newfrontiers to do this as the Lord had told me that this was ‘For the sake of my wider kingdom purposes in London and beyond.' It's been an amazing five or so years since!

I've always worked hard, but this job has taken over my life! I preach more than ever, write, travel significantly, and have faced the challenge of trying to build a New Testament style church in what has historically been known as a 'preaching center'. Building a true Gospel-centered community of Word and Spirit authenticity has never been easy in commuter-congregation, metropolitan churches, but the task is God's will for this church. We have seen many new people join us and great changes in the feel, direction, joy, and sense of Holy Spirit-filled community among us. People have been saved and lives transformed. Many young people have joined us, bringing the average down by perhaps 25-30 years less.

Adrian
Most people still associate the pulpit of your church with men like R. T. Kendall and Martyn Lloyd-Jones, who preceded you. What does it feel like to try and fill their shoes?

Greg
I've never tried! I believe they wore different sized shoes to me! My shoes are the only ones I'm called to wear. I have to avoid imitation and be true to the man God made me to be. The advice of a black preacher to trainee preachers comes to mind: "Be who you is, ‘cos if you ain't who you is, then you is who you ain't!" I abhor artificial imitation of others in their style and content. God doesn't clone preachers, and each of us is a unique creation with a unique voice. So I try to remain secure in the style and approach I take. I am second to none in my love for and admiration of my predecessors, and I am discovering just how great Dr. George Campbell-Morgan was, too! I have read nearly all of Lloyd-Jones and Kendall's books and owe them a huge debt, but I know they would be the first to advise me to 'Just be yourself!'—and that's what I intend to be. I am presently hearing much from God about his vision for the Chapel's future. I think both the Doctor and RT would be very pleased, because I'm convinced that something like it is what they both wanted, but never saw.

Continued in part two, "Greg Haslam On Leaving Newfrontiers for Westminster Chapel."

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.