This concludes my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. Today Terry provides insight into why he decided to work together with the New Word Alive conference. He also tells us how he chooses who to work with, and in particular, what led him to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference, which will begin on July 8th. (I will be live-blogging the conference.) The video of this segment of the interview can be viewed here.

The two previous segments of this interview with Terry and Wendy can be read at these pages:

• Terry and Wendy Virgo at New Word Alive
  
  
• Terry and Wendy Virgo on Itinerant Ministry

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Adrian
I can see from what you’re saying just how incredibly busy you must personally be overseeing all this. It just kind of brings me back to the fact that, yeah, you’re taking time out from your busy schedules to come here, so you must feel that this conference is pretty important and pretty crucial for, I guess, those outside of Newfrontiers. There aren’t that many Newfrontiers people here. Why would you come here? What’s so important about this specific conference this week?

Terry
I truly believe God wants to bring together a people who love Scripture, people who would flock to hear someone like Don Carson or John Piper, people who really regard Scripture highly.

Adrian
Very good. So, how do you determine, then, who you’re going to work with and who you’re not. Obviously you’re happy to work with these guys, and without going to names, I guess there must be others in UK that you’re not happy to work with. How do you determine that?

Terry
Most of my life has to be lived working out my commitment to Newfrontiers. That is where my loyalty lies. That’s where my duty lies. These are people who are expecting me to serve them, and I’m very happy to serve them. I’ve always felt that God said, “Now always keep a door open to the broader body of Christ. Don’t get shut in.” So for decades now, we’ve always had some involvement. So I get invitations and I have to choose here and there whether I will go. And this seemed a really brilliant place to come. I was honored to be invited, especially with a Carson and Piper here. So, yeah, I count it a huge privilege to be here. Also being a fairly substantial sizable conference, it means one can reach many people in a short time. After I spoke at the UCCF Forum, I had dozens, I think it would be true to say, letters from Christian Unions saying would I please come and speak at their CU. Well, I can’t do that. I can’t be driving all over England, speaking in CU meetings. But I can speak to a couple thousand students here in one week, so this is a really good economy of time, as well as an enjoyable thing to do.

Adrian
Okay. So I know, as an example, you’ve chosen to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference this year. And in the past you’ve chosen various people who some people, I think, were surprised about. How do you go about choosing them, and specifically Mark. What made you choose Mark for this year’s Brighton Conference?

Terry
I’ve been listening to Mark Driscoll over the last year or so, I guess. I’m deeply impressed with his biblical stance. I think he’s an unusually powerful preacher. He is also bitingly relevant to our generation and aware of the culture in which we live. I think he’s very unusual. He’s not only fighting for the truth in some sort of static way of just defining the doctrine. He reminds me of a kind of latter day Spurgeon. He’s very clear on doctrine. He’s very evangelistic, building a great church, it sounds, helping to plant churches in Acts 29—again like Spurgeon, who helped to get churches started all around London. You hear about people in Australia who were reading his sermons a week or so after he preached them in London as they printed them and sent them round the world. And now Driscoll’s been downloaded all over the world. He’s an unusual guy, very robust, like Spurgeon was, out of step somewhat, even with his group. But I love what I hear. I’ve yet to meet him, but I love what I hear.

Adrian
Great. Excellent. Well, we’ll look forward to another big conference in July. It seems like there’s conference after conference, doesn’t it? It’s great, I guess, to have people gathering round God’s Word and learning stuff. I mean, that’s what I find anyway. I like conferences because you keep going . . .

Terry
I think I love the local church the most, and I know that would be true of you.

Adrian
Yes!

Terry
That’s where we work out our lives. That’s where we grow. We can’t build our lives on conferences. But we have been associated with some very big ones over the years and know the huge impact, so I certainly don’t despise conferences, but I know that in the end we work out our lives in God in the local church.

Adrian
H-m-m-m. Very good, very good. Well, thanks very much, both of you, for joining us. It’s been a real delight, as always, and I guess we’ll leave it with that. Thank you.

Terry
Thank you, Adrian.

This is the second installment of my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo which began yesterday. That segment can be read here. The video version of this part of the interview can be seen here.


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Adrian
Wendy, I want to ask you something now because it’s been awhile since you’ve had a chance to get a word in edgewise—I suspect you might be used to that! (Laughter) How has it been for you with your husband—obviously in the younger years, away a lot—leaving you at home with the kids—five I think?

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
This is a very personal question, because my poor wife has the same problem.

Wendy
Oh, yes, she has five kids, too.

Adrian
And me traveling more for work, of course. But how did you cope being left alone, like she is right now, with five children and actually no car, I’m ashamed to admit.

Wendy
Oh, right. Well, when Terry was away, usually it was abroad, so I did have the use of the car, which was very helpful.

Adrian
Well, she usually does as well. This is, in fact, the first time since we went down to one car that we’ve been in this situation.

Wendy
Oh, right.

Adrian
Well, what about you? You were left at home; he was away . . .

Wendy
Well, our main focus is to build churches, which are really all one another in context, so we aren’t left alone, in fact. I was very much involved in church life and very beautifully loved and served by the church that I’ve been in now for twenty-five or six years. And, I didn’t actually feel that I was left alone. Obviously, I missed Terry a lot when he was away, but life was very busy and very full, and I never felt solitary, if you know what I mean.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

Wendy
And it has been great that as the children have grown up and now have their own homes (they’re all married now) that I can travel much more with Terry. I think it is a new season. Terry always used to travel with another guy or a group of guys because it was part of his training of them and part of introducing them to our values and helping them to see how an apostle works and how to work with an apostle, and developing a whole understanding of apostolic work. So, to take a group of guys with him was very helpful and instructive to all concerned. But now we have a number of men who would be in that position, like David Holden, Dave Devenish, and so on, who would also take groups of people with them, teams I would say. But as they have developed teamwork as well, they are now going off with their wives because their children are also grown up. So it’s becoming a bit of a pattern, I think.

Adrian
You’re very much involved, right in the thick of things, then?

Wendy
Probably not as much as say, some people like Dave Devenish, who goes into a place for several weeks or months at a time.

Adrian
And he’s taken his wife in those situations?

Wendy
Well, yes, that’s the thing. It’s quite a sacrifice, I think, at times. Tramping around places like Kazakhstan, places I can’t even pronounce. But, actually, Terry now will be going to Australia for three months at the end of this year, and that will be a new adventure for us.

Adrian
But you went to America for three years, didn’t you?

Wendy
Two years.

Adrian
Two years!

Wendy
Yes, yes. Actually that was a very positive time, too.

Adrian
Yes. So, I’m going to move back to Terry for a moment now because your wife just mentioned this funny “a” word—apostolic, apostle work. What about that? Because obviously there will be a lot of people who will, I guess, not really understand what that means for Newfrontiers.

Terry
Yes. I think it’s very important to say that we see different types of apostles, even in the Bible—Jesus the great apostle; the twelve, unique obviously, in the book of Revelation. But then you see in Ephesians 4—Jesus ascends on high and gives from his ascended position apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers—so there’s that ongoing ministry. He says this will be until the Church comes to fullness of stature, to a mature man. So, in a sense, this is an ongoing thing that God will continually give these varied ministries. So one isn’t looking for more Bible writers. I think very often we from the reformed tradition have thought—well, an apostle writes the Scripture and that’s his role. But, really, I don’t think that stands up to close inspection. Several of the twelve did not write Scripture. Several of the people who wrote Scripture were not apostles, so it’s not really the point. The point is more church planters. Paul says as a wise master builder, “I lay the foundation”—he traveled, he planted churches. We feel that’s really what we’re talking about—modern day church planters. People who pioneer new ground, establish eldership, establish churches, and a fathering, ongoing care for those churches, strongly built on relationship, so that we’re friends in the ministry, as Paul referred to people. Even at the end of Romans, in chapter 16, there are all these personal greetings to people. So we’re building very relationally. We’re building new churches, planting churches. And now various teams have been raised up doing apostolic work. [Ed: See post Apostles Are Meant For Today for more information.]

Adrian
Right. So I guess in summary what you’re talking about, for those people who have different vocabularies, is someone who can church plant and help establish churches. That’s obviously exciting. I mean, there are 500 churches in Newfrontiers now, aren’t there? Is that right?

Terry
It’s probably nearer 600 now.

Adrian
Wow! Last time I checked it was 400, so the number must be going up very quickly.

Terry
Yes, it is. I’ve been in touch today, just a moment ago, with Edward Buria in Kenya, where there are now some 130 churches, which he has helped start, and we served with him and are very much in touch with him at the moment with the political tensions there. And then we have churches in South Africa, and indeed, around the world. So when you add them all up around the world, it’s untold. It’s difficult to keep up because Edward plants so many churches in Kenya. But we’re also planting churches in West Africa, South Africa, and into Asia, and as Wendy was saying, Australia now, New Zealand. So we’re planting churches very widely.

Adrian
You didn’t mention anything about America, though.

Terry
Yes, we are. I’ve been to the USA, and in fact, we’ll be at the . . .we’ve been in March to the Leaders Conference, and then we’re going again in June to our midwest family camp [ONEBLAZE] held in Warrensburg [Missouri] just outside Kansas City, and then in August we’re going across to the West, where we have growing involvement in Oregon, and in Idaho and Montana—a number of churches that are reaching toward us. Quite a lot of these pastors are coming over. I understand thirty pastors are coming from the West to our Brighton Conference, Together on a Mission, in July, where there will be about 5,000 gathered there. But just from that part of America, we have thirty coming. So I would think there might be something in the region of sixty coming over from the US to our conference in the summer. [Ed: For more details see Newfrontiers events in the USA.]

Continued in part 3 . . .

Today I am going to share the written transcript of the first segment of a three-part interview with Terry Virgo and his wife, Wendy at the New Word Alive Conference in North Wales. The video of that segment can be seen here. I have also previously interviewed Terry here.

In this segment I ask them to tell us a little bit about what they do, what is Newfrontiers, and how Terry came to speak at the New Word Alive Conference this year.


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Adrian
Hi. I’m Adrian Warnock. I blog over at adrianwarnock.com and I’m part of the leadership team at Jubilee Church in London. I’m here at New Word Alive in North Wales, and am actually in Terry and Wendy Virgo’s chalet. Terry and Wendy very kindly agreed to join us for a short interview about the conference and whatever else we decide to talk about, I guess. So, thanks for joining us, Terry and Wendy.

Terry
Thanks, Adrian. Good to see you.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s great that you were able to find some time to chat with us, and to just be here at this conference. I just wonder, how have you found the conference so far?

Terry
Well, we’ve really enjoyed the opportunity for fellowship with a number of people we wouldn’t normally see. First of all, I’ve never met Don Carson, and it’s been magnificent to listen to him, and John Piper—inspiring again. It’s good to make new friends—people whose names I’ve known, like Wallace Benn. This is the first time I’ve got to meet him. It’s been an excellent time. Thank you.

Adrian
Good, thanks. And what about you, Wendy?

Wendy
Yes. I wasn’t quite sure what I was coming to, but I was relieved to find it is set in an absolutely beautiful location. And also I have so enjoyed especially Don Carson’s and John Piper’s messages. I’ve really been blown away by their passionate delivery of theology.

Adrian
Yeah, it’s been great, hasn’t it? So, Terry, there will be a few people watching this [and reading it] who perhaps won't know who you are. I mean, I find that amazing; you probably don’t find that amazing. But people do watch this in the States, and also some other places. I wonder if you could, in your own words really, talk a little bit about what it is you do with your life when you’re not in a chalet in Wales.

Terry
Yes, which is pretty rare! I’m based in Brighton on the south coast of England, and I’m an elder of a church there called Church of Christ the King. From there, I travel out with Newfrontiers, which is a group of churches that works in about 40 nations now. In the UK we have about 220 churches, and then globally we’re pressing on towards 600 churches. So I travel a lot. Later this month we’ll be in Russia at a pastors and wives conference, and then we’ll be in the States in May and June, and we’ll be in France with our pastors and wives there from the Newfrontiers churches. So we travel quite a lot.

Adrian
You say “we.” Is that the two of you, or just you, or sometimes a mixture of both?

Terry
We have five children who are all now married and have left home. And we often travel together now.

Adrian
Oh, that's the "we."

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
So what does Wendy get up to, then, when she’s not holding your bags? Well, I hope he carries your bags Wendy!

Wendy
Yes, traveling does take up a lot of our time, but when I’m at home I love to be involved in things like Alpha Courses, although increasingly I’m not able to do that. But I do write for various Bible notes such as TWR and Day By Day, the Bible Reading Fellowship, Scripture Union obviously for as well. I speak at ladies’ days around the country, and I’m also engaged in writing a book at the moment.

Adrian
That’s very interesting. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Or are you sworn to secrecy on that?

Wendy
Well, yes, perhaps it is a little bit premature, but it’s about the effect that women can have in a Church for good or bad.

Adrian
Very good. That sounds really interesting. I look forward to reading that, no doubt, sometime in the future. Now you’re going to have to finish it as you’ve said it online.

Wendy
I know.

Adrian
(Laughing) There you go! So, obviously both of you are incredibly busy, traveling an awful lot, all around the place, looking after all these churches. What made you decide to accept the invitation to come here? I know you’ve been involved with UCCF for quite awhile as well, haven’t you? Is it some kind of advisory board you’re on with them, or . . .

Terry
Yes. The invitation came from UCCF. I’ve made a very good friend in Richard Cunningham. He’s a fine guy. I like him. He asked me to be involved with UCCF, and then having agreed to that, I was then invited to speak at their Leaders Forum a year or two back, and had a very happy time working through Romans and then leading Bible studies. And I’ve enjoyed the fellowship. I’m so glad that they have embraced us. We come from a charismatic perspective. Our church life is charismatic. UCCF has not been famously charismatic, but they’re making a statement of openness, and I’ve been received very warmly, both in their Forum, which I’m due to speak at again next year (2009), and then here as well. And so it’s an interesting coming together of people who love Scripture, love doctrine, love the truth of God. And it’s great to have Stuart Townend here, and Phatfish, who come from my home church. We're very proud of them. Stuart’s written some magnificant songs, as have Phatfish, and I know they are welcomed around the world. It’s great to be together with them here as well. So we’ve enjoyed that.

Adrian
Yeah, and we’re singing the same songs as well, aren’t we? It’s interesting. Those divisions, at least in terms of songs, just don’t seem to be there anymore, really, you know?

Terry
I was fascinated when I was invited to speak at the Keswick Convention, probably three years ago now, and again I felt as the worship took place before I spoke, I think three-quarters of the songs we sang had been written by people in my home church. I felt remarkably . . .

Adrian
What is it about the sea water down there? You guys seem to keep producing singers, don’t you?

Terry
Yes, we have some great songwriters . . .

Adrian
I guess that church is a sort of resource church, really, isn’t it? I guess that would be one way of describing it in terms of—you have all kinds of different people going out and serving in various different way from there, haven’t you?

Terry
I think David Fellingham originally was with us from the beginning when we started our church. We started with 38 people back in about 1980, and David joined us quite early on with tremendous musical skills and devotion to God. He started writing songs that became very famous. And then others joined us like Stuart Townend, Paul Oakley, then his other son, Nathan Fellingham, came through writing songs. Kate Simmonds. More recently Simon Brading. In fact, we’re starting a worship school again this coming autumn, and we trust people will want to book in and come for the monthly program that will take place through this coming year.

Adrian
That’s great. So I mean, coming here, I guess we’re joining hands with people who perhaps years ago we'd never have imagined we'd be joining hands with. I mean, would that be a fair way of describing it?

Terry
Yes, it’s true. For me, when I was first converted from a completely non-Christian background, my sister had joined All Souls Langham Place, and I first responded to the gospel publically there. So I met John Stott on that day. So my roots go back to an evangelical context. And while I was at college, I listened to Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. So one feels so at home with these truths. Then I had an experience of the Holy Spirit, opening up the gifts of the Spirit in our church life. Which means we're certainly not cessationists. We believe in the presence and the power of God. We’ve never abandoned these great evangelical truths which we greatly love and have always preached during this time of enjoying the presence of the Spirit as well—seeing people being healed, and prophecies, and things of that order. So that we can find a very happy combination of those things.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that people are sort of almost feeling that this is a new thing—this combination of reformed and charismatic. I guess it’s newly prominent. It’s something that’s been around, I guess what you’re saying, all along. Is that right?

Terry
Well, I think I’ve always held that position going back many years. Joel Edwards, who has been the Evangelical Alliance leader for some years, said he felt that we at Newfrontiers in England were fairly unique for being famously charismatic and famously reformed theologically. He thought we were unusual. But we’re friends right across the board, and I’m very grateful for that.

Adrian
Good. Thanks.

Continued in part 2 . . .

As we drew to the close of the first segment of my interview with John Lanferman yesterday we began to speak about reformed charismatic churches. Today I begin by asking him if he believes there is a hunger for such churches in the USA. You can also download the audio of this interview.

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Adrian
Yeah, that’s so important, isn’t it? So as you look out over the nation, do you feel that there is a hunger in the US for these kind of churches, a desire to see them?

John
Absolutely. I think especially an emerging generation, the 20’s and 30’s generation, pretty much in the US left the church. But we’re seeing a lot of these people coming back into the church. In our own church, that would be the largest demographic. And these are young people who really have a value of the foundations of the past, historical Christian faith would be important to them, but also a mixture of what the culture has created—a desire to experience something in the Spirit. They’re not afraid of that. So you have this desire to be rooted in something that’s stable—historical Christian faith—but at the same time, wanting to experience something of God in the Spirit. And are not afraid of spiritual manifestations; in fact, they’re hungry for that. Hungry to experience the very real presence of God for themselves in a very tangible way.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s interesting because a lot of people are talking about that kind of resurgence of reformed faith in the US in the 20’s and 30’s [age group]. It’s interesting to hear you saying that a lot of those guys are also looking for something quite experiential.

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
I guess people like John Piper are probably a major part of that, aren’t they? Because the way he preaches—it’s all about knowing God, and [having] a kind of relationship with God, and valuing God, rather than just purely as an intellectual thing.

John
Yes, and he’s taken some fairly strong stands. He actually is not a cessationist. He actually does believe . . .

Adrian
Most people are really surprised when they hear that. What? John Piper is not a cessationist? You’re kidding!

John
That’s true. And he has huge influence in our nation among the evangelical community. I think his welcoming in of people like C. J. Mahaney, and even embracing guys like Mark Driscoll . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . and just to see what’s happening there encourages me quite a great deal.

One of the negative things that’s happening in the US as well—you have the emerging church. On one end of it you have a very orthodox guy like Mark Driscoll, and a bit colorful as well. (Adrian laughing) While on the other end you have people who have a greater degree of relevancy, so doctrine and theology is kind of fluid, and they want to adapt that to culture, and so that leads to heresy. And that’s a frightening thing. But there’s a wing of that emerging church that is very much moving in that direction as well, as you probably well know. That’s a frightening thing in the US because there’s quite a large following of that group as well.

Adrian
That’s right. And I think some of those historic doctrines are being questioned . . .

John
They are!

Adrian
. . . in a way that you’d be surprised at. But that’s not unique to the US either. As you know, we’ve had some issues over here with that, particularly with regard to the atonement and things like that. I mean, is the atonement such a big issue in the US as it is over here in the UK, would you say?

John
It’s not with mainline evangelical groups, but I think with the emerging church, the people who are on one side of that very much—that’s one of the questions. And even the desire to be culturally relevant and accepting of alternative life styles has led people to make an adjustment as to how they approach that. And they won’t make categorical statements any more. So they’re standing on sand rather than the solid rock of the Book. So I think that’s a concern as well. These guys are fairly media savvy, and it’s a subtle thing . . . to find a way into churches.

Adrian
I think that’ right. With the advent of the media and the Internet, well, I know this only two well. It’s possible for people to hit above their weight. I mean, Here am I — just some guy in a church in London whose blog is read all around the world. And I think that happening with a lot of people, and you can have influence, either for good or not good, far above, actually, what you are accomplishing on the ground in that sense. Or over what you feel you should have influence.

John
Yes, absolutely, that’s true.

Adrian
I think it is a bit concerning, isn’t it? How some people are causing us to drift away from truth.

John
The thing that’s concerning about it is that—not [only] are they gifted and charismatic, but in actuality, there’s the element of Christianity about them. So you’re dealing with something different than people who are totally secular. So it’s a subtle thing. A lot of people are not very scripturally astute. It’s easy to be pulled along in that train.

Adrian
Don’t you think that it’s quite interesting when you look [at it] historically? A lot of these ideas have been tried before, haven’t they?

John
Yes, they have. And the thing is, they always end up on a dead-end street. They don’t have a long cycle. They come around, but ultimately God is very protective of his Church. He is very zealous for it. And the church that’s rooted in biblical value and persuasion continues on. I’m very encouraged in America about the uptick in church planting. I don’t know if you want to talk about that or not . . .

Adrian
Yeah, church planting is great, yeah.

John
In the US, over the last two decades, there has been a deterioration in people who are committed to regular church attendance. It’s averaged a 10 per cent decline in each of the last ten years—so 20 per cent less are now involved in church activities, or even actually community activities, than before. But now, groups like Acts 29, and on a much, much smaller scale, but I like to say, Sovereign Grace, and Newfrontiers, and various other church planting movements, Global Net—these groups that are coming to the forefront planting churches, training people, are based on orthodox Christian faith with a real sense of mission. So missional churches are emerging among us, and many of them are growing, seeing lots of people saved. So I actually—while we have these rather alarming trends, I see much to be very excited about in the US.

Adrian
Yes, oh yes. Just for the sake of those out there—I know some people sitting out there are thinking, “What exactly is a missional church, John?” How would you define that?

John
A church that understands that it exists for the express purpose of carrying the gospel to the next door neighbor, to the person in the next block, to the person in the next city, state, and nation, and they exist for the purpose of being carriers of the gospel. So they are involved, not only in proclamation, but they are involved in changing the whole culture of a community. They would be people who would be involved in cross-cultural evangelism. They would be people who would be involved in changing the social justice—be involved in that ministry to the poor—so they have a desire to see the whole community that they are involved with, the towns they are involved with, changed and made into a kingdom community. It’s people who understand, “We do not exist for ourselves, but we exist for them.” So the way we spend our money. the way we staff our churches, the way our churches feel, the way they operate, have that outward appeal. And it’s a God-centered approach to humanity rather than an inward, “What about me and my needs?” It’s a man-centered approach.

Adrian
That’s very good. So that’s really very much what’s on your heart as you go across the nation, isn’t it? I guess that’s what you’re saying—to see those kinds of churches multiplied.

John
Absolutely—if we can get outstanding churches in each of these 100 large cities, and out from that, begin to reproduce ourselves. Because I’m fanatical on reproducing churches. We must not just plant churches, but we [want to] see churches that view themselves as reproducing churches, multiply themselves, raise up leaders, give themselves away, spread out in the communities and the nations beyond.

Adrian
It’s just so exciting to see what God is doing in a nation, but also what he’s doing around the world, and to be able to link up with that. I guess we’re back to the conference in a way. Because that’s what this is all about, isn’t it? Together on a Mission.

John
Yes, it is. And I think what’s interesting is how we help each other. The different nations, different men, bring different things into the pool. I’m receiving from others. I’m receiving from my friends in Africa, or my friends in India, and so it’s even the in-between times when we’re kind of sharing ideas back and forth and getting on board how we can assist one another. Because it’s just not about our own little patch. It’s us owning the world together. It’s us saying, “We want to see the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ grow and expand to all the nations of the world. So, I have just as much a vital interest in what’s happening in Africa, or what’s happening in Europe, as I would even in our own place. Because we have to own the whole vision of God. I do know that I have a particular responsibility for a sphere.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But God has called us to work together. I think that’s the joy of what’s happening here in this conference, and who we are in Newfrontiers as well.

Adrian
Yeah. And I guess when we gather together like this, significant words can come as well, that shape us really.

John
It’s true. I think it’s in the worship that God is speaking to us. It’s in the preaching as well. But also in prophetic words that come to us. And you can just see the impact that’s happening across the room . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . guys coming together and buzzing about this, and what God is saying. So it’s quite helpful actually.

Adrian
If my readers are sitting there in America somewhere thinking, “You know what?” This all sounds great. I’d love to be in a church like that.” How would they find out more?

John
Well, they can come to our website, of course. Just type into the search engine Newfrontiers USA, and there, of course, they can find us, and where our churches are located. Of course, I would welcome any contact there in St. Louis where we are based.

Adrian
Excellent. Do you run any conferences, or anything like that, there in the USA?

John
Yes, we do. We have an annual Leadership Conference that’s hosted by us there in St. Louis. But we have also moved out regionally. Originally we were just a small cluster of churches in Missouri, but now we have established cluster churches in New England, and we’ve moved into the Pacific Northwest, and now we’ve moved into the Southeast as well. So we’ve established regional events because we are a family of churches, just not a fraternity of leaders. So churches come together there for envisioning, and leadership events happen, as well as 20’s conferences, and events for teenagers. Just this next week, we’re gathering several hundred teenagers, not just to go to a camp and somehow be refreshed and go back all enthusiastic for a couple of weeks, but actually to be involved in a mission and social action. We’re going to go out into the streets. We’re going to get with children in the neighborhoods. We’re going to begin to work into that community. So we have lots of events by which we’re bringing people together. There’s something that can happen when a group of churches come together that simply cannot happen with a church on its own. And there is just a combined strength of coming together around the singleness of vision and purpose that not only helps with what we do together, but actually helps when people go back to their own churches. They’ve caught something, see? And they take it back with them. So we have several events like that. And men’s conferences and ladies conferences that are happening throughout the nation. So immediately when I go back, we will have a One Blaze event, which is the teen event, in St. Louis. And from there, I’ll leave the next week and go up to New England, and we’ll have a big family camp out there where we gather the churches. We bring in international speakers, as well as myself, and we’re envisioned.

Adrian
Great. Sounds great. It’s just so exciting to hear about what God’s doing over there in the States. Thank you so much for joining us, John. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with my readers before we close?

John
I’m very much enthused about what God is going to be doing in the US, and what he is doing now. I’m thrilled when I see the moving of his Spirit in more prononced ways, as well as the value of the Word. I’m particularly encouraged about missional churches that are sprining up all across our nation. So, I wouldn’t want to end here just with some of the other things we’ve talked about—alarming trends, etc. I’d like to says that I’m actually more encouraged today than I’ve ever been in my life in regard to what God’s doing in raising up his Church in the US.

Adrian
Excellent! Praise God for that. We wish you all the success in the future, John, and I look forward to hearing more about what goes on in the years to come when you’ve reached those 100 cities.

John
Yes, thank you, Adrian.

Adrian

Praise God. Thank you.

Next week the main Newfrontiers International conference of the year starts. To whet your appetite, I thought I'd share the transcript of an interview I did at Together On A Mission 2007 with John Lanferman. The audio for this interview is also available here.

John oversees a team of leaders who serve the churches in the Newfrontiers—USA family. His primary focus is leadership training, church planting, and supporting churches in the States. John and his wife, Linda, are a part of Jubilee Church in St. Louis, Missouri. His blog is at http://johnlanferman.blogspot.com/.

If you can't make it to this year's TOAM conference, I will once again be live-blogging it right here. It's still not too late to arrange to listen to one of Mark Driscoll's other speaking engagements in the UK.


*************************
Adrian
Hi everyone. This is Adrian Warnock here again. I’m here at Together on a Mission, together with John Lanferman. John leads the work of Newfrontiers in the USA. I would like to ask him a little bit about the conference, and also his work overseas, because I’m aware that a lot of you are probably thinking, “Well, this Newfrontiers thing—it’s all well and good because it’s over in the UK” — where things are perhaps a little bit different. So, John, first of all, how are you enjoying the conference?

John
I think it’s magnificent. The preaching has been outstanding. The worship is amazing. God’s presence is here. He is speaking personally to people. He’s speaking to us as a family of churches as well. It’s wonderful to welcome 53 different nations into this setting.

Adrian
Yes, I think it’s so important to underline that, isn’t it, because people probably think, “Oh, it’s just a British thing,” when really it’s almost like a world conference, isn’t it?

John
Absolutely, it is. And just to make connection with people and find out what’s happening in their nations, and to see that we’re really on the same page as it relates to the kingdom of God. There’s not really a national distinction there when it comes to that.

Adrian
Yeah, I know. It’s been great. Some of the preachers have come from South Africa and . . .

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
You’ve got guys from Africa, other parts, all over, haven’t we here?

John
Yes, it’s wonderful.

Adrian
I guess really as well, this conference is perhaps a little bit different to some other conferences, isn’t it, in terms of the family feel. I don’t know how easily we can get that across to people who are at home reading the blog.

John
I think that’s the interesting thing. When you come together and you see people, and some of the people, of course, we know as well. But even in meeting new people, there’s a sense of community that seems to be automatic, and it’s just great to see people mixing it up, enjoying each other.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that’s right, because that doesn’t happen everywhere we go in conferences, does it?

John
No, I know some conferences that you may visit, and some I’ve visited in the US — I mean, you arrive. If you don’t know anyone or if you have a friend or two, you’re really not connected. There’s not a sense of togetherness on the mission . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
. . . and you break off, you go to lunch, or you go to your hotel room. There’s a sense of — you’re there to pick up information primarily and download information that maybe you can employ in your own situation.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But here it’s a totally different feel.

Adrian
That’s right. And there’s all these kind of little mini-meetings going on in all the breaks, isn’t there? I mean, the little breaks sort of get eaten up, don’t they?

John
All the time.

Adrian
(Laughing). And we’re sitting here and we’ve got what? I don’t know—another hour or so?—before the next session. And you squeeze in a meeting, don’t you?

John
That’s right, you do.

Adrian
But it’s good fun.

John
So it’s a pleasure, I think, as well, the in-between meeting times to connect relationally, talk to each other, find out what’s going on. It’s all part of the whole package.

Adrian
Yeah, exactly. John, I particularly wanted to chat with you because you head up the work of Newfrontiers in the USA, and so many of my readers are from that nation. So, are there many other Americans here at the conference?

John
Yes, there are several actually. We have four of our own local elders from St. Louis who are here, and some of our other staff members as well. But besides that, across the nation, we have representatives who lead churches that are here with us.

Adrian
So are there many Newfrontiers churches in the US?

John
Actually, there’s not at the time. We now have 23 churches in ten different states, but it was just a few years ago, like ten years ago, we had 7 churches in one state . . .

Adrian
Right.

John
. . . so these were churches that already had a history. Terry [Virgo] came over and spent a couple of years and left. It was in that setting, then, that we began to actually formulate who we were together, come together with a real sense of mission. We have churches that have a history, and we’ve been drawn together around Terry, and around the mission there, but obviously there are residual issues, so I think in the first few years there was a need for us to really come together to construct that all through, which we did, of course, and now we’re planting churches all across the nation.

Adrian
Okay, excellent. How do you decide where to go and plant a church?

John
I have, on my laptop, 100 cities, and I won’t be content until the top 100 cities in the U.S.—87 per cent of the nation’s population reside in these cities—so, one by one, we want to tick off these cities. When Newfrontiers started in the US, we were primarily a rural movement. We didn’t have any churches in any major cities. So, first of all, to come together around a mission and then begin to train leaders and set up training programs, to begin to envision people, and then see people move from the rural settings—although we’re very, very grateful; we’re still planting the rural settings—begin to make that big step into city centers. Kansas City was our first church plant; St. Louis (the one I led) was our second plant, and now we are in seven major cities. We’re in Seattle-Tacoma. We’re in Boston. We’re in Chicago. We’re in Nashville. We’re in Atlanta. We’re planting churches one by one into these major city centers, and we want these churches to become reproducing centers, so out from them churches are planted. So we have a fairly ambitious vision.

Adrian
Yeah, it sounds like it. So, what is it about a Newfrontiers church that is, say, different to other churches in the grand? Because I know some people might say, “Well, why bother planting churches? Surely we should just strengthen the ones that are there already.”

John
I think the thing that really draws us together is our sense of mission. Now there are other things, of course, that draw us together. Our very real value of Word and Spirit. We’re an interesting group because, in the US, you have evangelicals and people from various denominational persuasions. You have people who are charismatics. We’re a bit different because we are evangelical in that we are rooted in historic Christian faith. Most of our people would have a reformed theological perception. But we have a charismatic experience. And that’s quite unusual in the US. I think it sets us a bit apart from most other groups—not that there aren’t others that way—but it makes us different, I think, from what you would normally find in the US.

Adrian
Yeah. I sometimes have people writing to me, saying, “Is there a church like that in this place or in that place?” And I often wonder what other groups are there out there that are similar to Newfrontiers in some way. Are there other groups?

John
I would say Sovereign Grace would be similar to us. We’ve had good fellowship with that group. But there’s an interesting phenomenon that’s happening as well because in mainline evangelical circles, people that would have name recognition—guys like John Piper or Mark Driscoll—are, of course, well established in orthodox faith, but as well, are very open to and accepting and believing in certain charismatic expressions. So, it’s an interesting move that’s happening in the US in that regard.

Adrian
Yeah. So there’s a kind of—like what you’re saying—a coming together of the Word and the Spirit in a way.

John
I believe that’s exactly true. We do have other things. It’s a big country. The Christian television market, religious television market, and radio waves are fairly dominated by charismatics that would have a very experiential and often times a man-centered approach . . .

Adrian
Right.

John
. . . rather than a God-centered approach, which of course, is not helpful to be labeled in that particular camp because our root is indeed orthodox evangelical Christianity with a charismatic experience and expression.

Continued in part 2 . . .

I recently posted what I trust will be a series which will be about sermons that have changed my life. It is way too early for me to claim that this past Sunday's talk by my pastor and dear friend, Tope Koleoso, will be one of those. But I could do a lot worse than allow myself to be shaped by a talk like this. I have previously shared a list of talks Tope has given that are available online, but much as I loved those talks, I believe this may be the best sermon I have ever heard him preach.

I don't want to give too much away because I want to encourage you to listen to this talk. He weaved such well-remembered verses as "Go into all the world ...", "I am not ashamed of the gospel ..." "How will they hear ..." and "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few ..." into a compelling tapestry that felt fresh and deeply impacting without condemning. He acknowledged that it IS easier to mix with people who are in your own "tribe"— your Judea as it were.

He challenged us that if we are not going beyond that, if all our friends are still very similar to us, we haven't yet allowed the gospel to have its full impact on us. He laid down the challenge that the gospel has two calls to it. There is a call to come, to receive from God. But then there is a call to go. In that going we are called to worship God and to be a witness. He spoke of our mission to reach the world one person at a time. He also spoke of our message. He explained that our message was nothing more complicated than a person—Jesus. We are to teach his cross, his resurrection, the call to repentance, and a promise of forgiveness. Still, today some demand signs and wonders, and others clever reasoning and wisdom, but we preach Jesus and him crucified. Tope also spoke of our methods and our motivation of love. My favorite line in the whole talk was, "If you want Jesus to go with you, go and make disciples."

I was profoundly moved by this talk. What was also exciting is that, once again this Sunday, a number of people made a response to the gospel. We are in the middle of a prolonged season where we have been seeing such responses on a weekly basis. Please pray for us that such things continue, and that as a church this sermon may indeed help to turn our focus outward and that we will see many more genuinely saved. The message is available to download or listen to here:

If you are an avid C. J. Mahaney listener, you may well have heard of a series of talks he did many years ago on people in the Bible who God killed. In which case, I've got a real treat in store for you! But first, let me set the context.

I would like to share with you a few sermons over the coming weeks or months that have impacted me so much that I still remember them. I am convinced that the gentle "drip drip" effect of being continually exposed to good teaching over many years is as important as the moments of great impact and decision. But, by the nature of things, we don't remember those sermons!

Some messages do consciously shape us, however, creating a moment of transaction between us and God. Often we remember how we felt when we heard them as if it were yesterday, even years afterwards. This is one such talk. I would love to hear from others about sermons they remember as having transformed them in a similar way.

To set the scene, I was still a young boy. I had somehow persuaded my parents to let me go into the adults' meeting in a tent at Downs Bible Week, an early Newfrontiers conference.

Mahaney was a phenomenon even back then. He was funny, engaging, easy to understand, and truly passionate. He was speaking about the holiness of God, and by honing in on the people God killed, certainly got my attention. This was a side of God I hadn't really given much attention to.

This talk was very well received. In fact, you could have cut the air with a knife that night because of the sense of the presence of God in the room. It was one of the very few times in my life when I caught something of the smell of revival. That night I experienced for the first time a sense of the weighty presence of God in all his holiness that both attracted and terrified me. I knew then that this was what a revival would feel like. If I had known how seldom I would experience the same sensation in the ensuing years, I would not have wanted to leave that tent. Sometimes today I cry out to God that he would reveal himself in such a way again. When we pray for revival, I'm not entirely sure we know what we are praying for.

Judging by the heavy sense of conviction in the room, many of us were totally undone that night. I know that for me, I would never be able to treat God as flippantly or irreverently again. That night kindled in me a healthy respect for God which has never left me. The Bible both commands us to fear God, and then tells us not to be afraid of him. Or, as Newton puts it:

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
and grace my fears relieved.
One of my most enduring memories of that evening all those years ago was speaking to a member of our church who, with eyes brimming with tears, said that they felt they had just begun their Christian life all over again—if that were possible. There were many who felt the same way, wondering if they had ever been a Christian up until that point.

The sermon seemed as though it was lost to the sands of time. But in response to my appeal for old sermons, I like to imagine that someone was rummaging through their attic and finding an old tape. As a result, here it is! I think it's a VERY important talk and am glad I have been able to (with permission) unleash it on the world once again. You can download it here or listen online using the embedded player:



Here are some extracts from the talk—the first was in the context of talking about whether God's punishment of Adam's sin was excessive.

"I don't in any way believe that that was too harsh. He was warned. God made every provision ... When you sin, you forfeit any claim you had to human existence, because the purpose of his life and Eve's life, and our lives was to represent the holiness of God. I don't believe it's unjust for God to take away the gift of life that he gave freely if it wasn't used for the purpose for which he gave it. Because when we sin, what we are saying is—we are not just making a mistake—we are saying no to God's law; we are saying your law is not good; we're saying—God, your law does not cut it, I'm not under your authority; my judgment is superior to yours; I'm defying and opposing you, who in reality I owe everything to."

"The amazing thing is not that God has judged people in the Bible; it is that God has not judged everybody."

"I have seen some people teach on holiness and they almost seemed happy some people were going to hell."

"God does not delight in sending people to hell ... His judgment is not like our temper that flares up in an instant."

"As soon as that apple hit Adam's lips and Eve's lips, they should have been wasted immediately, but God was merciful . . . justice was delayed so that grace might enter history."

"The issue is not why does God punish sin, but why does he permit the ongoing rebellion of man?"

There was also an endearing moment, when in the midst of some hilarious Mahaney jokes, he turned to my mentor, Henry Tyler, who was on the stage beside him and said, "Henry, I don't think Martyn Lloyd-Jones would have approved of this exegesis, do you?" It was a funny and intimate moment that nicely offset the conviction and passion of much of the sermon. While I am not sure that Lloyd-Jones would have approved of the humor, I like to think he would definitely have approved of the life-transforming effect on one young boy, and I suspect many others sitting in that circus top tent on a racecourse at Plumsted that evening.

Do you remember this sermon or one of Mahaney's other ones on God killing people? What impact did it have on you?

********

This talk is reproduced with the permission of Newfrontiers. Visit their website for further free downloads from a variety of Newfrontiers events.

John Kpikpi is a friend of mine. I know and trust him. I also know and trust Terry who reported the following remarkable text message on his blog. A truly remarkable event.

On Thursday night (29th May 2008) I was watching the Florida outpouring of God TV. It went on till our time 12.30 a.m. Towards the end there were testimonies of the 15th person raised from the dead – one of which was reported by cell phone from Kenya!

I was about to go to bed when a lady in our church phoned to say that her husband had stopped speaking and stopped responding to her, and asked me to come.

It was rather dire when I got there; we could not detect any breathing movements at all, and his body felt very cold to the touch. There was no pulse and his limbs were limp. Not being a medic I can’t claim he was dead but there was no evidence of life.

His three children were crying in another room while I set out to pray for him with his wife, obviously filled with faith from my time watching the TV.

After praying for a while I thought I noticed a slight movement below the thorax. I wondered whether my eyes were playing tricks on me so I rested my palm gently over the area – and felt it move. I asked his wife to feel the same place but she said she couldn’t feel anything. We continued to pray and I saw his collar bone move up and down!

We pressed on and then I could hear breathing noises. Then he began to snore and at this time his wife called him and he responded with a grunt! I felt it was time for me to leave and I went in and assured the children that their Dad was OK.

Was he raised from the dead? Well, I think if I hadn’t gone in with impartation from the Florida outpouring we would all have been wailing on Sunday; rather he came to stand with his wife before the church as a great testimony.

Hallelujah! I am hungry for more of this present outpouring.

John Kpikpi
2nd June 2008

UPDATE
The written transcript of the third part of the interview is now available. It can be read here.

Yesterday I continued my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. Wendy provided some insights into her life as Terry's wife and her travels with him. Terry defined what he means by "modern day apostles."

In this segment, Terry speaks more about why he decided to work together with the New Word Alive conference. He states, "I truly believe God wants to bring together people who love Scripture and those who love life in the Holy Spirit." We also talked about how he chooses who to work with, and in particular what led him to invite Mark Driscoll to this year's Brighton conference.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview is now available to read here.

Yesterday I began an interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. We talked a little about what they do and how Terry came to speak at New Word Alive.

Wendy begins this section of our interview talking about sharing in Terry's travels, and what it was like to be left behind with five children. Terry also explains briefly what he means by modern day apostles.



Continued in part 3 . . .

UPDATE
The written transcript of this interview is now available. It can be read here.

Today I share the first of a three-part interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo, recorded at New Word Alive. Terry and Wendy kindly invited me into their chalet as I was a bit cold from speaking with Don Carson outside.

In this segment we talked about what exactly they both do, what is Newfrontiers, and a bit about the relationships that led to Terry speaking at New Word Alive. I have previously interviewed Terry here.



Continued in part 2 . . .

Last week Terry shared a challenging quote about prayer. This kind of prayer that will NOT let God go, and will NOT settle for the status quo goes a long way to explaining the secret of Newfrontiers.

It's a good place to start as we commence a video interview with Terry this week. Perhaps we should take note how important prayer is to both Terry and the other two people I interviewed on video at New Word Alive - Don Carson and John Piper.

Here is the quote:

"Lose the importunity of prayer … lose the real conflict of will and will, lose the habit of wrestling and the hope of prevailing with God, make it mere walking with God in friendly talk; and precious as that is, yet you tend to lose the reality of prayer at last." (P. T. Forsyth).

Most of you will already know this, but Mark Driscoll is coming to the UK this July. I hope that as many of my readers as possible will be able to attend at least one of these events. I have been fortunate enough to interview Mark Driscoll by e-mail, and to have listened to him live, and am sure you will not be disappointed if you come.

Monday through Friday July 8-11
Newfrontiers Conference in Brighton
Driscoll will be preaching a number of sessions to the whole conference, and will also run a seminar series for elders. Join thousands of Christian leaders and those in their 20’s for vibrant worship and great preaching. Booking required.

Friday July 11
“Mark Driscoll Unleashed” at St James Clerkenwell, London
Hear Driscoll near Kings Cross at 8 PM. Booking not required.

Saturday July 12
Dwell Conference, London
An Acts 29 “Boot Camp” in miniature from 9:30 AM to 4:45 PM in central London. Booking required.

Sunday July 13
Mark Driscoll Preaching at Jubilee Church, London
10 AM — Hear Driscoll preach in a growing multicultural church in North London that happens to be my regular church. Join us at Enfield Cineworld near Enfield Town Overground Station, on the corner of the A10 and Southbury Road.

6:30 PM — Hear Driscoll back in Brighton at the Church of Christ the King.

I had the pleasure of interviewing Stuart Townend today. Stuart is based in Church of Christ the King, a Newfrontiers church in Brighton, UK, which is also home to Phatfish, Paul Oakley, and Terry Virgo.

Here is an abridged and adapted version of that interview. The entire interview can be accessed at the end of this post and is well worth listening to in its entirety. Stuart was a joy to interview and clearly passionate about worship and doctrine.

Adrian
How are you finding the conference?

Stuart
It's great, so far. There has been a good response. The standard of teaching has been world-class.

Adrian
Do tell us a bit more about your song, In Christ Alone.

Stuart
It was the first song Keith Getty and I wrote together. Keith is a fantastic melody writer. It was his music that inspired me to take my lyric writing seriously and convey the truths of the Scriptures in a poetic way to help people retain the truth. I have been humbled to see how it has been used. I get more comments on that song than all the rest put together. It was a timely song, written around the time 9-11 shook our foundations. To be able to sing at that time “No scheme of man can pluck me from his hand” was important.

Adrian
What makes a worship song good?

Stuart
Having focused on the cross of Christ, it’s important to ask, “What does that mean for me? What's the foundation of life?” It’s not just, “How does it make me feel?" Rather, it should be—"What is the unchanging truth about my life based on the unchanging truth about God and what he has done? What has God said about me or us or the Church?” Those things are unchanging truths that don't depend on whether I am having a good time or a bad time. They are about me, but they are really about God and what God has done in me. Worship is not just about singing songs that make me feel better. In the middle of whatever I am facing, God is with me. Worship should be exciting, but founded on the truth of the gospel. Our feelings are a by-product of the glorious truth we are celebrating.

Adrian
Do you think there is still as much disagreement among Christians over music as there previously was?

Stuart
I don't think there is. It’s a shame that some think lively worship has to be the modern stuff. People have been getting excited for centuries. But songs that were divisive have now been embraced. There are, however, some churches out there who are singing songs that contain theology that they actually wouldn't preach.

Adrian
Indeed! In Christ Alone has also caused some controversy, hasn't it?

Stuart
Yes, some people breach copyright law by changing a particular line. Some people will not use the song. But the problem with that is that some people are saying we shouldn't preach or sing about a core element of the gospel. I cannot make sense of the whole Bible without the concept of wrath.

Listen to the full interview by subscribing to my new podcast or download it here. For more information, visit Stuart Townend's website or read the interview Newfrontiers Magazine Online did with him in October of 2007. You can also legally download music, lyrics, and mp3's from Stuart Townend at the Kingsway website

I have just been listening to a message by my pastor, Tope Koleoso, who was recorded at a recent conference on building a multicultural church. I have become so used to what God has been doing these past couple of years at Jubilee that I sometimes need to remind myself that genuinely racially integrated churches are actually far from common. We truly have a lot to be grateful for. I really think you may well enjoy listening to Tope on this subject. The message can be downloaded or you can listen to it right here:



Other talks from the same conference are also available, as is a series of talks on 'gracism' preached at another multicultural church in South London.

Tope is a dynamic speaker, and most of the time does not focus on racial issues, preferring to simply get on with preaching the Bible to a church which happens to have different nationalities attending. If you want to hear more of him, you can visit the website of the church I attend where you will also find sermons by others, including myself. Tope has also preached at a number of other churches, and some of them have put his messages online:

• Tope Koleoso at City Hope Church, Bermondsey—"Celebrating Diversity: Move on From Integrating Multiculture to Love and Acceptance," 10th February 2008.
  
  
• Tope Koleoso at Christ Church, London—"Regaining Refreshing (Acts 3)," 15th April 2007.
  
  
• Tope Koleoso at Church of Christ the King, Brighton—"Godliness is Profitable For All Time" and "Pursuing the Wonderful God," December 2006.

I can't offer two conferences for the price of one, but I can—in one post—discuss two conferences which, for all the similarities of their names, do have some important differences. For a start, they are on opposite sides of the Atlantic, so booking into the wrong one would be a significant logistical headache! I am quite sure, however, that many will cross the "pond" to attend one of what I am calling the "Together" conferences. In fact. they don't happen at the same time, so it is very possible for you to attend BOTH if you want to, as at least one blogger I know is considering!

Both conferences have one important thing in common—they are filling up FAST and expect to be sell-outs, having to turn people away. Hotel rooms are disappearing even more rapidly for both events. Since I have now firmly booked my own place on the second one (sadly I can't make the first), I feel safe to remind you, my readers, that it is time to MOVE QUICKLY!



TOGETHER FOR THE GOSPEL (T4G)
Tuesday April 15 - Thursday April 17, 2008
Kentucky International Convention Center, Louisville, KY
BOOK HERE
It doesn't seem possible that it is now almost two years since this conference first burst onto the international stage. Representing a relationship-based coming together of much of what is best in various different evangelical traditions, this conference models something we would all do well to learn from. Speakers for T4G are Ligon Duncan, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, Mark Dever, R. C. Sproul, Albert Mohler, John Piper and C. J. Mahaney.



TOGETHER ON A MISSION (TOAM)
Tuesday July 8 - Friday 11, 2008
Brighton Conference Centre, UK
BOOK HERE
TOAM is the international leaders conference for a worldwide family of approximately 600 churches, although it is open to anyone. There will be 5000 delegates gathering from some 50 nations. Less a conference, more a family reunion, TOAM has a very different feel from any other conference I have ever attended. This year Mark Driscoll will be the main visiting speaker. Speakers for TOAM are Terry Virgo, Mark Driscoll, Stephen Van Rhyn, Dave Stroud, David Devenish, P-J Smyth, Dave Holden, Guy Miller, Wendy Virgo, Mick Taylor, Roger Smith, Steve Oliver, Jeremy Simpkins, John Groves, Greg Haslam, John Hosier, and Ray Lowe

No. 7 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on November 26, 2005, and endeavored to explain that curious phenomenon—a charismatic Calvinist or "reformed charismatic." There was a time when we were considered an oddity and people doubted our existence. Now, at least in England, reformed charismatics are on the ascendancy and many Christians are intrigued by us.

With the resurgence of interest in things reformed and charismatic, I thought I'd post a bit on what I feel is a "reformed charismatic." Simply put, reformed charismatics are those people who are trying to foster a convergence by taking the best that is available from both charismatics and reformed people. If, like me, you are convinced of the following points, you might be a reformed charismatic:

• Mark Dever and Rick Warren both have useful things to say to the Church.
  
  
• C. J. Mahaney is an acceptable person to preach from a pulpit normally filled by John MacArthur.
  
  
• You like reading blogs by Tim Challies and Phil Johnson, but also by the pneuma bloggers.
  
  
• You like the Alpha Course, and enjoy reading Spurgeon and Piper.
  
  
• You just don't see why there is such anger between certain charismatics and some of their reformed brothers. At the same time you still believe that there really is a truth to discover.
  
  
• You are in a reformed church, but secretly long for more of an experience of God. You are in a charismatic church, but secretly enjoy listening to preaching and reading books that teach substantial theology.

In a sense reformed charismatics are occupying the center ground. Like "new Labor," they advocate a third way. It is really possible, they say, to pursue a solid biblical knowledge and sound doctrine while experiencing the presence and the power of God in a real way today. The Word and the Spirit are not in conflict, but rather work together to cause us to know God.

The charismatics believe in a God who is alive and acts today. We believe in a God who wants a personal relationship with his followers, who hears prayers, who reveals himself, who pours out his love into our hearts, and who never changes and is the same God of the Bible today. We believe that receiving the Holy Spirit is a conscious real experience. We believe that this experience of the Spirit is one of the major ways that God gives us assurance that we are saved.

The reformed believe in the solas of the reformation, and in the classical evangelical position on the gospel. We believe that man is so dead in his sin and facing the wrath of God that he requires a work that entirely originates in God to deal with it.

Read more . . . What is a Reformed Charismatic?

No 12 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on May 15, 2005, and examined the events surrounding and subsequent to what came to be known as "The Toronto Blessing."

I published this post from an article I had written many years prior to May of 2005. In some ways it was this article that first stirred the "writing bug" in me. I surveyed the historical events associated with "The Toronto Blessing," and also looked at some biblical and church history data. Some of my reformed friends may be uncomfortable with the fact that I am willing to see good in what happened. No doubt some of my charismatic friends will be unhappy with the fact that I also accept that unhelpful excesses occurred in some places.

In addition to the sections I have republished here ("An Outpouring of the Holy Spirit? What On Earth is Going On?" and the "Origins of the Movement"), I also trace its spread to the UK, similar phenomena in history, what our response should be to these phenomena, and how to test similar movements. You can read my thoughts on those issues by clicking here or on the link provided at the bottom of this post.

I thought I would share with you—for history's sake and in its entirety—an article I wrote almost eleven years ago about the so-called "Toronto Blessing."

An Outpouring of the Holy Spirit? What on Earth is Going On?

In the months following May 1994, there was a sudden wave of bizarre phenomena in many churches in the UK, USA, and elsewhere in the world from a wide variety of backgrounds. Since then, the city of Toronto, Canada, has become closely associated with these events. Much attention has been drawn to all of this in both the secular and Christian press.

Phenomena widely reported with these events included falling over, laughing, crying, shaking, peculiar movements, cries, roars, intoxicating joy, and incoordination. While a dramatic transformation in the life of many of the people affected by these phenomena was observed, a large number of conversions was not reported and most people did not call this a revival.

The falling may, on occasion, have been sudden and violent. I am unaware of any cases of injury resulting. Giddiness was sometimes reported prior to the fall. There usually was not a total loss of consciousness, and most were able to hear, although they might not respond. A feeling of detachment was common—hours could go by and seem like minutes. An apparent spastic or flaccid paralysis was often present in individuals affected. Many reported impressions and visions imparted to them while on the floor. Some felt as if they were physically pinned to the floor and felt quite unable to move.

Likewise, shaking and other apparently involuntary movements took a wide variety of forms. These had to be seen to be believed, but included repetitive leaping to a great height, a heightened physiological tremor, twitching, and being thrown as though hit by an electric charge.

All of the above phenomena occurred in combination with the same individual. They sometimes followed prayer, with laying on of hands, or began spontaneously during worship, preaching, or alone at home. People became so intoxicated with joy that they had to be carried to their cars. Some were carried out rigid, others staggered as though drunk. It was very difficult to observe all of this without wondering, "What on earth is going on?"

A pattern emerged from study of the spread of the these phenomena. People, and especially church leaders, flocked to the affected churches to investigate. Even the skeptical found themselves being affected, much to their surprise. Upon their return home, often before assimilating what had happened, they found similar events breaking out in their own churches. The briefest of statements about God doing strange new things might be followed by a request for any who would like a fresh touch from God to stand. Often at this point an entire congregation would stand to its feet, and following a short prayer, a sudden outbreak of the above phenomena occurred. Those affected might not have even heard of the specific phenomena that had occurred elsewhere!

Origins of the Movement

The center of much of this attention, with 20,000 to 30,000 visitors from around the world in the first six months of 1994, was a tiny building at the end of a runway in Canada where the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church (now Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship) was meeting. John Wimber was the unofficial leader of the Vineyard Movement, of which this church was a member. This was one of several groups of charismatic or "new" churches worldwide. The Vineyard Movement was strongest in the USA, but certainly had churches elsewhere, including London.

Although the controversial John Wimber had seen many of these reported phenomena on a smaller scale in his conferences, he seemed to have had little to do directly with the birth of this movement. Indeed, Mr. Wimber subsequently died.

The first place where these phenomena occurred in the intensity and extent now so well known was actually not Toronto, but in the USA. In 1989, South African evangelist, Rodney Howard-Browne, complained that his meeting was being ruined when many people fell off their seats and began laughing. He soon became convinced that God was to blame. These events followed Howard-Browne and persisted after he had left, spreading rapidly. In April 1993, during meetings in Florida which were attended by 10,000 people, waves of laughter affected the congregation. Subsequently, widespread attention was drawn to these events. Approximately 2,200 people were baptized in water, and 800 new members were added to the host church by the middle of 1994. Another church in the area, whose initially reluctant pastor was suddenly struck to the floor with laughter, reported that by the middle of 1994 the church had grown from 800 to 1,500.

As a result of this meeting, Howard-Browne was invited to preach to 4,000 students later that year. He reported, "One night I was preaching on hell ... [laughter] just hit the whole place. The more I told the people what hell was like, the more they laughed. When I gave an altar call, they came forward by the hundreds to be saved."

The interesting thing has been that far from dying down after this evangelist left town, the phenomena continued and spread. The movement did not appear to be centered in a man, and in terms of its spread to the UK, Howard-Browne played a very limited role.

Since 1991, there has also been a separate outbreak in Argentina, where the phenomena seemed to be associated with a full-scale revival. In November 1993, John Arnott, the pastor of the Toronto Vineyard Church, traveled to Argentina and the United States to see what was happening. He met with another Vineyard pastor, Randy Clark of St. Louis, who had been prayed for by Rodney Howard-Browne and subsequently experienced similar effects in his own church.

On the 20th of January 1994, a meeting with Randy Clark took place in the Toronto Vineyard and the phenomena broke out. Very soon, news spread and the people started coming to investigate. From this church, other Vineyard churches and many other groups were affected.

Read more . . . "The Toronto Blessing" - When The Church Seemed To Be Going Mad

No. 14 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on June 28, 2007, and was the summary post of an interview with the father of the family of churches of which I am thrilled to be a part, and a man I respect like few others alive today. Terry Virgo is that rare true gift of God to the global Church, a man who will leave the worldwhile Church in a far better state than he found it. His influence extends far beyond the 500 churches which are a part of Newfrontiers to the many thousands of others who have been affected by his teaching.

If you want to keep in touch with Terry, please do add Terry Virgo's Blog to your reading list or keep visiting here, where his posts will appear in the Warnie Winners headline box from now on.

So far in this interview with Terry Virgo we have looked at his view of the wider church scene, the origins, and then the distinctives of Newfrontiers. Today we will examine his view of the future.

Terry, I would love to draw your attention now to the future. What do you think it holds for you and the family of churches you lead?

Within Newfrontiers it is essential that we prayerfully look for emerging apostles and not simply regional supervisors. I thank God for regional supervisors who help us to serve the Church, but it's essential that we make space for genuinely anointed apostles and let them find their own sphere. We must be flexible. I think that the Apostle Paul was called by God, developed his own apostolic sphere, and then received the right hand of fellowship from Peter and John who were Apostles before him. Paul came out of a different stable. He wasn't made an apostle by Peter and John; they acknowledged that he was one. We need to look for the same kind of development — we look for gifting and give it the right hand of fellowship rather than thinking that we can institutionally appoint people into that office.

How would that happen? How would you recognize that?

In South Africa the unexpected death of Simon Pettit, our senior leader, has forced the issue in an extraordinary way. God said to us that an oak tree had fallen, but not to be replaced by another one. Instead, saplings were growing and we were to discern who they were and encourage their growth. Now, what I have observed is that there are three or four guys who are gifted in raising up leaders, raising up churches, and overseeing churches. They have done it as a result of their own gifting. So, instead of trying to set up a South Africa structure, we aim to recognize gifting. So we want to say to different brothers, we see you emerging as apostles, we want to encourage you. But, we want to recognize that you have a gift rather than impose a structure on you.

I want to encourage those men to gather their own teams — to find their Timothys. We want to fan the flame of their gifting, exhort them to go for it, father them, but believe God for their apostolic gifting.

Historically, in what we call Newfrontiers, Terry Virgo was the only person regarded as an apostle since I fathered the movement and started the first churches. I was very reluctant to use the word at all for myself. People used to say to me, "Why don't you make other apostles?" I used to say, I don't know if I am one myself, let alone make anyone else one. We veered to the side of being very reluctant.

As years have gone by we have probably swung too much the other way. We have used the word apostolic as an adjective in a very misty way. We have almost drifted into calling regional leaders apostles. The reality is that regional structures are very helpful, but not every person we have asked to oversee a region demonstrates apostolic gifting. If you formalise regions, you are in great danger of institutionalising so-called apostles. That will never work.

You can just see how the whole bishop structure emerged, can't you?

Yes, and you also get to think of apostles as being responsible for regions, which is almost totally the opposite of what an apostle is. An apostle is a sent one. He is not a maxi-pastor; he has to have freedom to go as that's in his heart, and cannot be over-structured.

I don't want to leave behind a structure which is a shell that uses the labels, but has nothing truly apostolic happening. We have to try to prepare for the next generation. I am pushing late sixties now. I am not going on forever. These are huge issues for us at the moment which we talk a lot about. In recent years we have discussed the implications of my death or retirement. We didn't think Simon would die before me; it was a huge shock. What happened in South Africa has forced the issue for us and been instructive at a time when we are also talking about it theologically and theoretically.

You can never guarantee that you will be saved from institutionalism, but we must do everything in our power to avoid it.

Read more . . . Terry Virgo on the Future

No. 24 on the list of the most widely read posts among readers of my blog appeared on July 13, 2007, and provided an audio link to my interview with Rob Rufus.

Interviewing Rob at the end of the Together on a Mission 2007 Conference was memorable, and those who listened to the mp3 will know just how much laughter was a part of that conversation. In December 2007, the written transcript of this interview with Rob Rufus was published as a series on my blog. Any one of those segments can be read by clicking on the links here:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus: How to Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today
  
  
• How apostles Work Today

It was a real delight to sit with Rob Rufus and Tope Koleoso at the end of the conference for the following wide-ranging interview. I would strongly encourage you to listen to this, especially if you want to get more insight into what these apostolic families of churches look like in practice, or if you are just intrigued to learn more about the Holy Spirit.

You can download the mp3 or listen to it right here on the blog:

During the months of September and October, I spent a lot of time quoting from a book Justin Taylor produced—a lightly edited John Owen. These can all be read on the category page for posts labeled "John Owen." In November, I gave John Piper on N. T. Wright the same treatment.

I also wrote a post titled Blogging, Discernment, and a Book by Tim Challies which managed to provoke the Pyromaniacs, review Tim's book, and muse about the best approach to blogging for Christians—all in the same post! It was not long after that when I made the important decision to remove comments from this site because I just wasn't managing to find the time to moderate them properly. This was announced in Thanksgiving and Some Changes Around Here.

Terry Virgo hasn't found out and stopped me yet, but I managed to let everyone into the Secret of Newfrontiers—if you want to know what that is, you will have to read the post. I was also able to share an interview with a man who has a unique perspective on our movement, having been in it for decades before officially leaving, while remaining our very good friend. I am, of course, talking about Greg Haslam, who is currently occupying D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones' pulpit in Westminster Chapel, London.

It was very moving to be able to visit the Billy Graham Center in Wheaton, Illinois. I was also able to return to London in time to renew my acquaintance with Mark Dever, and to listen to him preach. Here are the posts:

• Theology for All — Lessons for the Future by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Lessons for the Present by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Lessons From the Past by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Mark Dever in the UK
• Theology for All — An Interview with Mark Dever

In November I met Mark Driscoll in the flesh for the first time and shared the following posts about the meeting and his sermons there, as well as mentioning a couple of key ones from his home church:

• Driscoll on the Defeat of Shame and the Scotland MP3s
• Mark Driscoll at MenMakers in Scotland
• Mark Driscoll Preaches on the Atonement in Edinburgh, Scotland
• Mark Driscoll Apologizes For Not Being Humble
• Mark Driscoll Firm, But Kind, About Joel Osteen on Prosperity Teaching

In December I posted probably my most political post so far—"Time to Put a Stop to Brown?" It is fair to say that I assumed people would understand that I believed that, for better or worse, it is God who has given us this leader at this time. I should not have assumed that, nor should I have neglected to remind all of us of the need to pray for him. With Brown seemingly helpless against Cameron's weekly accusations that the PM is dithering and indecisive, it sure looks like the leader of "The B Team" needs our prayers! For the sake of our nation, I hope something changes and soon.

My final interview of the year was actually a transcipt of an interview I had previously shared in audio form. The interviewee was Rob Rufus, and that was surely a good way to end what has been my most eventful year of blogging so far.

Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus on How To Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we've never said, "We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!"—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same"—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and "cross pollinate." It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we finished by talking a bit about the network of churches of which he is a part. We ended with Rob speaking about a team of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/ teachers. Today we begin by asking Rob what he means by “apostles.”

For more information about the concept of apostles today, see my post "apostles are meant for today," the section of my interview with the leader of Newfrontiers which asks what Terry Virgo means by apostles today. For a response to our view from someone who respectfully disagrees, see when I ask Wayne Grudem about apostles today. Interestingly, some respected cessationists such as Liam Goligher argue that we need something similar to apostles, although presumably he would be less happy with calling them that. You will notice that I have used the word "apostles" with a small "a," even when that is grammatically incorrect. That is because we like to distinguish between the original "Apostles," who were in certain important ways unique, and other "apostles."

Adrian
You used that word “apostolic,” and I’m very aware that some of my readers will wonder, “What do you mean by that?” Can you explain your perspective of what that means?

Rob Rufus
Yes, and I think that is a very good question, because people are asking that, and it really is something people want to have clarity on. Often people think apostles are those who write Scripture, and that if we’re claiming we’ve got apostles today, we claim that the canon of Scripture’s not closed. But as we know, it IS closed, and that [New Testament] Scripture was written only by apostles in the first century. So we have pre-ascension apostles in the Bible and post-ascension apostles. Anyone who believes the Bible is God’s inspired Word will realize there must be apostles around today—they’re not pre-ascension apostles. The pre-ascension apostles are the twelve apostles of the Lamb that were called primarily to be witnesses to the baptism of Jesus, his life, his resurrection. But after Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended on high (Ephesians 4) he gave some to be apostles. So there are post-ascension apostles as well, and he says they will be in the earth until the Church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ. We know the Church is not at the full measure of the stature of Christ currently, so we will need apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the equipping of the believers, the saints, for the work of the ministry until we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God and to the full measure of the stature of Christ. So apostles need to be “until.” That word “until” offers the key word.

Adrian
Yes, very good. I think it’s Matthew Henry who looks at that passage and says something like, “These gifts (or rather some of them) will continue until the end.” It’s an interesting approach, I guess. If the apostles stop, why doesn’t the pastor stop?

Rob Rufus
Exactly! Exactly!

Tope
Yes, absolutely. I think you put it very, very well, and in a very helpful way because, certainly I know that for us, just working as we see the Bible order these things functioning together with apostles in the midst and all the other gifts, it’s been an incredible help. Near the end, it does say he gives these as gifts. He must know that we need these gifts. There’s something very powerful there. Every time we align ourselves with the biblical order that God has put in place, goodness and blessing come out the other end. So we’re all learning this.

Rob Rufus
Very good, Tope! I agree. I agree. I think when people hear of apostles, they kind of think of some sort of hierarchy and almost a controlling dictator-type where apostles are self-appointed and really think they are the big bosses of the church, you know, but actually Paul says, “We, the apostles, come at the end of the line.” There is nothing dictatorial, although Paul was incredibly anointed in such power and theology and revelation, he came amongst the churches like a father—he said almost like a nursing mother to the Thessalonians. And he speaks about of his affection for them and his friendship for them, and the care for the churches. So there is a hierarchy there. But Paul wouldn’t even put the word “apostle” in front of his name. He always put it behind his name: “Paul, called to be an apostle.” He is saying “apostle” is not my title, it’s my job description. So you’ll never see the word “apostle” in front of Paul’s name, or any of the guy’s names. Even at home, I like to say to people, “Look, I’m Rob, called to be a pastor to you.” Pastor is my job description; it’s not my title. People say, “I’ve got to call you “Pastor Rob” because that’s a sign of respect.” And I say, “Well, then, I’ve got to call you Mechanic Henry. Or Housewife Jill." I don’t show you respect by calling your job description as your title. I think every sincere person who loves the Scriptures—we need to say the Bible plus nothing, the Bible minus nothing—and we build our theology, our church practice—not only our doctrine of Hebrews 6: faith, repentance, you know, all of the doctrine. But the government, the way church is governed, needs to come back to Scripture as well.

Adrian
Yes, and I think that’s so right. It seems like, I guess it’s almost like we have blind spots—where we want the Bible up to this point, but no further. I guess church history is a bit like that—you look back in church history and you see some of these guys in the past, and you think, “How could you see so much great stuff and not this?!”

Rob Rufus
Yes! Very good! Yes! Yes!

Tope
I think the real enemy just tries to blind us and stop us from seeing certain things and living in the good of certain things. But God is still on the throne and seeking to bring recovery to everything.

When you talk about Paul there, and his movement in church planting—you’ve moved now from South Africa and you find yourself . . . where do you find yourself these days? (Laughter)

Rob Rufus
Well, we planted a church in South Africa and led it for twelve years, handed it over, and then we re-located to Australia to help Dudley, who started the NCMI family of churches and apostolic team. We worked with him there for thirteen years. He actually handed the church over to me and he headed to the United States for awhile—for a number of years—so I led that church for seven years and then handed the church over to Tyrone Daniel, who is Dudley’s son. And then for three years we traveled full-time internationally equipping and training churches in evangelism, and signs and wonders, and doing crusades around the world. And then God spoke very clearly and said, “I want you to go plant a church in Hong Kong,”—which was a real challenge to me because I don’t speak Cantonese or Putonghua, which is Mandarin. But we very clearly heard the call to go. So we started with five people in Hong Kong—no one knew us, knew our history! But God has blessed us here. In three years we have seen local Chinese people saved and added, so we are enjoying it and beginning to move into the China mainland as well and help plant churches in the mainland.

Adrian
Praise God! That’s really great. So, within your family of churches, is that quite an unusual thing to go church planting? I mean, do you just have a few churches or what?

Rob Rufus
We’ve been going from probably the mid-80’s, so it is just over twenty years, and a number of guys and girls together on teams are relocating, planting churches internationally. And more and more we do want it to have a total indigenous flavour. We don’t want it to be—we’re not exporting South African culture that’s for sure! We want it to be Kingdom culture, so when the culture of the country we go to is consistent with the Kingdom culture, those elements of the culture, we say let’s celebrate that. But where the culture contradicts the culture of the Kingdom, then the Christians need to make the adjustments to conform to the culture of the Kingdom. So, yeah, there is that spearheading—more and more people going into different nations and planting, but we also kind of plant and parent. There are churches out there going—we really need to be connected with an apostolic team that can help us build foundation into the life of our churches We never own those churches, but work as friends with those churches through the invitation of the leaders— only through invitation of the leaders. There is no headquarters that says, “We own you and you’re just another statistic. If you don’t line up with us, then we’ll take your building, kick you out”—none of that! We don’t own any buildings. The local church is the highest governing authority; they own their buildings. We build friendship with them and relationship, so we also have had, over those twenty years, probably (we don’t know, you gotta be careful) I’m going to say some thousands of churches, but that represents throughout most of Africa, we have churches. In one year we had 500 churches planted in Malawi alone, but it just happens in Africa. It just happens. But in the Western world, no, we don’t have thousands; we’re talking hundreds in the Western world.

Continued in part 5 . . .

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we focused on Word and Spirit. Today I begin by asking Rob what steps readers who are intrigued by the charismatic experience should take.

Adrian
One of the things I find is that quite a few of the readers of my blog out there—they love the Word, they are Reformed folk—but they are a little bit bemused to discover that there are a ton of us [charismatics] who love the Word in the same way. Actually, a lot of them are quite drawn in, but they just don’t know quite how to make that connection. Perhaps they don’t live in a town where there’s a group they can go to. Maybe they’ve even been burnt by some of these “charismaniacs” we’ve talked about. What would you say to them? They’re sitting at home and are a bit intrigued, a bit fascinated. They want more, but know they haven’t really connected with the Spirit in that way.

Rob Rufus
Yes. Well, I would say—stay with the Scriptures. Never ever dilute or compromise your love for the Word of God! That is our foundation; that’s the bedrock. Then I would just invite the Holy Spirit to come, the Spirit of truth, because he breathed the Scriptures! They are God-breathed by the Spirit himself. Ask the Holy Spirit to come and just touch you and begin to lead you. And He will, because he really is faithful and wonderful. And then with technology today, this access to speakers around the world like the New Frontiers guys who talk about the Holy Spirit, but from a wonderful biblical place. I mean, I don’t think this fear today that the counterfeit, that the devil—and [the Bible] does warn in the last days there will be counterfeit signs, wonders, and miracles—but it doesn’t say that the ONLY signs, wonders, and miracles in the last day will be counterfeit. So if there is counterfeit, it means that the genuine will be there, and we need to find the genuine. We really need to find the genuine.

Adrian
Thanks for that. Just going back a minute then. There you were, coming—Calvinistic, charismatic, or if you prefer, Reformed Charismatic. (I always think the term “reformed charismatic” is funny because it makes it sound like we’re kind of an ex-charismatic group, doesn’t it?) (Section unclear because of loud laughter.) But you obviously did become part of a family of churches—you’re not part of New Frontiers, but you’re part of something—I think it’s New Covenant Ministries? Have I got that right?

Rob Rufus
Yes, New Covenant Ministries International.

Adrian
And I guess that’s a fairly similar group of churches to New Frontiers? Is that right? That’s my understanding.

Rob Rufus
Yes, very similar. We’ve got so much that is so close. Our DNA is so similar that I feel like I’m at home. I’ve got to realize, okay, yeah, I’m part of the family, you know. It just feels so similar.

Adrian
So, how did New Covenant Ministries International come about? Tell us a little bit about the history of that.

Rob Rufus
Sure. It was back in the early 1980’s when God was really moving in ways, I think, across the world, and particularly in South Africa (we were based in South Africa). My friend who actually mentored me, and fathered and birthed NCMI—his church grew explosively. And whatever happens, you know, whenever you have some success, pastors around the country want you to come and tell them about it.

Adrian
So who was that? What was his name?

Rob Rufus
It’s Dudley Daniel. He started traveling around South Africa and teaching about what made his church grow. Then God spoke to him one day on the plane and said, “It’s wonderful what you’re doing—you’re blessing pastors and that, but do you want to spend the rest of your life just blessing, or do you also want to help pastors build the Church?” Because blessings are short-lived, but if you build well, you can sustain the blessing. And God began to speak to Dudley about finding biblical patterns—what are the biblical wineskins? How were churches really governed in the New Testament? He began to see that there were some traditions that we had inherited that were not in line with Scripture, done by very sincere, good leaders. So he began to relate this to some friends. He threw his home open on a Monday, and pastors that were alone, looking for friendship, started coming and relating. And out of that came a kind of a motto that we developed: “Friendship before function.” We have a function into the earth, but we want to be friends; we want to do it with friends relationally, like Jesus did with his guys, his friends. (Too much laughter to hear what is being said here.) God showed us that we are the offspring of Abraham, and that we are (unclear) forces—we’re the heirs of the world. And that from the seed of Abraham God wanted to make the blessing to all nations! So the Great Commission really just complements the oath God took to Abraham—God took an oath that all nations would be blessed. When you take an oath, it’s—what’s the word I want to say?

Tope
Binding?

Rob Rufus
Yeah, binding. So God bound himself to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham. So if the Church balks on that, or hinders it, or stands against it, then God will precipitate a crisis, like he did with Jonah to get the Gospel to Nineveh. So we realized that God was calling us to go to the nations, and we built—with a national team of friends, we developed a mixture of prophetic, apostolic evangelists, teachers, pastors, etc.

Continued in part 4 . . .

As we drew to the close of part one of this interview with Rob Rufus we were emphasizing the need for charismatics to continue to value the Bible. Today we begin with a question my pastor, Tope Koleoso, asked. This is a lightly edited transcript of what was actually said.

Tope
I’ve got to say, I agree with you. Definitely for me in listening to all the sessions that you did, and for us as a church, having taken so many to this conference, and also as a pastor, having the privilege of speaking with other pastors—the response that I’ve been hearing back, certainly from my own perspective, has been that in the talks there has been a depth of theology, not just the push of an experience; there has been this depth of theology as the verses and the references have come out, but you have also told us of the experiences—what this would look like and what God can do. And beyond you describing this, we also saw what God did among us. So those two sides then—the Word and the Spirit—I would say we saw that, but I would say we also saw—I could put it this way—the Lion and the Lamb. There was a real confidence in the way I thought the talks came across, but also the gentility of getting to know the Person of the Holy Spirit. And I wondered—is this something that you’ve always had? Is it a style of preaching that you developed or what?

Rob Rufus
That’s an outstanding question, Tope. As I mentioned in the conference, before I became a Christian I was a Hare Krishna. I was practicing strict Hinduism very aesthetically. One of the things that attracted me to Christianity was that when I went to a meeting where the power of God was being manifested—where cripples were walking and deaf ears were opening and the power of God was there—it made me realize that Christianity can never be reduced just to a philosophy, but it has to declare that Jesus is alive; He is a risen living Saviour. So I came into the kingdom of heaven through seeing the supernatural—I was birthed in the miraculous. But then I had mentors that loved the Scriptures as well. We were kind of like charismatic Calvinists, in other words we had reformed theology of the sovereignty of God and the attributes of God and the awesomeness and the transcendence of God and the love for Scripture. But along with that was this recognition that Paul, one of the greatest apostles and one of the greatest theologians you could ever imagine—raised the dead. He moved in signs and wonders, the supernatural. So I think it’s fraudulent to say we are walking in a New Testament apostolic life if all we are is into the Spirit because that gets quite unusual and flaky and unhealthy after awhile. Or it’s fraudulent to say, “I’m apostolic; I’m into the Word of God, but we don’t have a demonstration of power. Paul had both, and I think that’s what good theology is. I mean, Jesus was the theologian of theologians, and he said to someone—you’re wrong because you don’t know the Scriptures AND the power of God. So he married the Word of God and the Scriptures together.

Adrian
Very good! Very good! So for you, growing up into that whole kind of charismatic Calvinist thing, you sort of laughed when you said it. Did you feel like you were a bit of an oddity? Were you aware there were others out there like that? Or was there just a small group of you and you felt a bit weird? Because that was our experience!

Rob Rufus
Adrian, that’s exactly how we felt! I got saved in 1977, I think, so it was the tail end of the hippie movement. We all had long hair and all of that stuff, and yet with the gifts of the Spirit in operation, we would do expository preaching right through the Bible. We would study books at a time—go through the book of Hebrews chapter by chapter.

Adrian
So your preaching wasn’t always like it was this week?

Rob Rufus
(Loud laughter) Of course not! I was inducted into Christianity through expository preaching, and that wasn’t me; it was my mentor.

Adrian
So you do that kind of expository preaching yourself?

Rob Rufus
I do occasionally. I have been in the church plant in Hong Kong for three years and I haven’t done a book yet in expository form. But we will. That is something I do. But in the middle of all that expository teaching, there were gifts of the Spirit—very passionate outreach and evangelism in the streets. So reformed denominations for whom I have great respect (I really do) who love the Scriptures—they couldn’t quite work us out. We were a bit of a strange case! We were charismatic Calvinists. And yet I feel like in today’s world, I think what’s happening is that a lot of committed evangelical people who love Jesus, who love the Scriptures, are suddenly to their relief, finding out that people who are full of the Spirit and know the supernatural power of God love the Scriptures as well. And I believe it’s giving them a sense that a bridging is taking place. I think, too, that those people who are moving in the power of God and love the Scriptures—we need to be humble and realize that evangelicals have a rich legacy that we can learn from, and I think we can enrich each other.

Continued in part 3 . . .

A few months ago it was my privilege to interview Rob Rufus. The audio version of that interview is available online, but thanks to two readers (Dan Bowden and a friend of Andrew Fountain) who both sent me transcripts of the MP3 lately, I am now able to publish the text version. It has only been lightly edited, so please do forgive us any grammatical errors that come from this being a conversation rather than careful writing. If you want to listen to the interview, the MP3 is available to download on the original post.

Adrian
The Together on a Mission conference has just ended, but I’m here, together with my pastor, Tope, and we’re here with Rob Rufus. Rob is going to talk to us a little bit about how the conference has been for him, and tell us a little bit more about his own church and his own family of churches, and just really share with us about that. So he’s kindly agreed to sit down—he’s probably a bit tired—but we’re going to have a good time, hopefully, this afternoon. So, Rob, first of all, how has this conference been for you?

Rob Rufus
I think it’s been very staggering and astonishing in a delightful way because what I experienced here was almost like the reward of the fruit of a number of years of New Frontiers preparing themselves, building a good wineskin. And by “wineskin” I mean the kind of authority structures we build the church with—biblical values and biblical vision. We are now positioned to really see God come in an amazing way. So I felt there was such a liberty and an openness to God’s visitation, to the supernatural of God, and I think a lot of that’s got to do with the understanding that the churches have on the theology of grace—the understanding of grace—and the security that we have in Christ. So, it’s been an incredibly enlarging time here; just the spirit of faith among the people, the sense of a global vision, and yet doing it together as a team, doing it together in a sense of partnership. So, for me, the overall sense of the ethos and the atmosphere was one of a group of people very zealous, very passionate, full of vision, yet who haven’t kissed their brains goodbye, well-grounded in good theology, sound doctrine, open to the power of the Holy Spirit, and real people who are really friendly with one another and enjoy one another’s company, and that’s been a delight.

Adrian
Excellent! Yeah, and it’s been great. Obviously, one of the features of this conference has been your own preaching, Rob. I just wonder for those who have not been at the conference, and perhaps have been following the blogs—how would you summarize your key message, just in a couple of sentences, of this conference—what you’d like people to take away, because, to be honest, taking notes hasn’t been that easy! (Loud laughter) Well, you could say that!

Rob Rufus
Yes, absolutely! I mean, I’m the worst person for writing notes myself, and then, of course, for people to be able to pick up notes, because I tend to be more spontaneous and impromptu. Probably what I’d like people to primarily take away in a few sentences is that, of course, God is turning up the supernatural—the volume of the demonstration of his power—not just for the sake of sensationalism for us to find ourselves popular or famous because of that, but because he wants to be glorified in the world, he wants to get the world’s attention. The primary essence I would like people to take away is that we don’t seek primarily the power of God, but we seek the person of God. We seek who he is, his glory. Because his power is what he does, but his glory and his presence is who he is, and that’s the only thing that will fulfill people—to know him personally. That sense of intimacy is such a delight; it gives us that fulfillment. Out of that he hides his power within his presence so you can live a supernatural life in a natural way because you’re not having to fast forty days to get the power—you can just walk with the person of God in intimacy and he releases his power out of that relationship with himself.

Adrian
Yes. I guess that some Christians sitting at home listening to this—I mean, I get readers on my blog from all kinds of different backgrounds—they’re going to listen to that and think, “What is this guy talking about? A relationship with God? I thought we just had a relationship with a Book!” What would you say to those kinds of people?

Rob Rufus
Well, it’s like—when I met my wife for the first time I was at university so I couldn’t spend time with her because the university was in a different city. So during the first six months, I could only see her every second or third weekend. We corresponded in those days—it was a long enough time ago it was by letters, not e-mails!—(loud laughter) and although her letters were perfumed and I loved reading her letters, I didn’t have a love relationship primarily with her letters, but with the author of the letters. So I longed to get to see the person who was writing the letter and meet her. So the Bible is, in a sense, perfumed with the presence of God—it’s God-breathed; it’s really his love letter to us. It’s an introduction for us to get to know the Author of the Book. That’s the delight!

Adrian
Yes, very good! So you are not one of those “charismaniacs” who want to throw out the Bible then, Rob?

Rob Rufus
Absolutely not, Adrian! That, I think, is the tragedy. Sadly the charismatics or Pentecostals (to some degree, not all!) have been known as a people who are kind of going on a binge of subjectivity. It’s all self-indulgent. You have got to have theological references to make sure that the supernatural experiences you are having are authentic because we do have the counterfeit in the world today; we do have deception in the world today. The Bible is the foundation that authenticates that we are having legitimate miraculous encounters with God.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Fred Sanders has a great post interacting with Thomas Goodwin's exalted view of Ephesians. Goodwin is not alone. In the "Introduction" to his series on Ephesians, Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote this:

"It is very difficult to speak of [Ephesians] in a controlled manner because of its greatness and because of its sublimity. Many have tried to describe it. One writer has described it as 'the crown and climax of Pauline theology'. Another has said that it is 'the distilled essence of the Christian religion, the most authoritative and most consummate compendium of our holy Christian faith'. What language! And it is by no means exaggerated.

. . . . the peculiar feature and characteristic of the Epistle to the Ephesians is that here the Apostle seems to be, as he puts it himself, in 'the heavenly places', and he is looking down at the great panorama of salvation and redemption . . . The result is that in this Epistle there is very little controversy; and that is so because his great concern here was to give to the Ephesians . . . a panoramic view of this wondrous and glorious work of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

. . . Luther says of the Epistle to the Romans that it is 'the most important document in the New Testament, the gospel in its purest expression', and in many ways I agree that there is no purer, plainer statement of the gospel than in the Epistle to the Romans. Accepting that as true, I would venture to add if the Epistle to the Romans is the purest expression of the gospel, the Epistle to the Ephesians is the sublimest and the most majestic expression of it. . . .There are statements and passages in this Epistle which really baffle description. The great Apostle piles epithet upon epithet, adjective upon adjective, and still he cannot express himself adequately. There are passages in [the] first chapter, and others in the third chapter, especially towards its end, where the Apostle is carried out above and beyond himself and loses and abandons himself in a great outburst of worship and praise and thanksgiving. I repeat, therefore, that there is nothing more sublime in the whole range of Scripture than this Epistle to the Ephesians.

D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. God's Ultimate Purpose—An Exposition of Ephesians 1, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1978, pp. 11-12.

It seems then that Lloyd-Jones ranked Ephesians very highly indeed. I suspect it is only his challenging views on 'sealing with the Spirit' that have stopped the Doctor's far shorter work on Ephesians from being as well known as his major work on Romans. I strongly urge every would-be preacher to do what I did decades ago and get yourself a copy and read through Ephesians with Martyn Lloyd-Jones as your guide.

Anyway, here is Fred:

[Goodwin] quotes Jerome’s comment that Ephesians is “like the heart in the midst of the body,” (quomodo cor animalis in medio est), and says that just as the heart is “the prime seat and fountain of spirits, and the fullest thereof,” Ephesians has everything important in it that you can find anywhere in Scripture. In fact, it has “more of the spirits, the quintessence of the mysteries of Christ,” than can be found anywhere else in the Bible.

And in case you don’t believe Goodwin or Jerome, Goodwin hazards the observation that Paul himself seemed to be aware that he’d written something especially specially special: In Ephesians 3:3, Paul says that a rich treasury of insight into the mystery of the gospel had been given to him, “as I said before.” Goodwin thinks “as I said before” means “up there, the last couple of chapters.”

If you are interested in finding out more about Ephesians, feel free to follow along with our church as we preach our way through this amazing book. Either subscribe to our podcast or visit Jubilee Church, London.

Just as it is not possible to really understand a car without knowing about its engine, you cannot understand Newfrontiers without knowing about the engine which lies under its hood. That engine is in very large part what happens several times a year when church leaders gather for a time of prayer and fasting. This past week it was truly awesome to gather with 750 others to devote ourselves to seeking God. In the context of prayer, prophetic words are shared and evaluated. We catch the heart of God for our next thrust forward. Family news is shared. And what news! We have now seen God work in such a way that there are over 200 churches in the UK. We also heard about fresh drives to plant churches in Paris, Rome, Berlin, Dublin, Porta, Amsterdam, and Valentia, among others. There are even some more churches looking at joining our growing family in the USA. In every continent of the world, Newfrontiers churches are growing and multiplying. With the work God is also doing in other groups, it is increasingly possible to believe that reformed, charismatic, grace-filled, relational churches will be planted all over the world.

To join a resounding chorus of praise to God and prayer for the success of all these endeavors was deeply moving. We also heard about how the churches of Zimbabwe with whom we are in touch are full of joy and faith despite the difficult circumstances they face. Who could not have been stirred by Terry Virgo's fresh challenge to us to rediscover the vital place of shepherding God's flock and focusing our best efforts on caring for churches even as they go out on a mission? Meeting with some of you my readers was also great fun.

The worship was very rousing. In particular, I felt my heart swell as we sang Jesus My Only Hope. I found myself thinking—if he is our only hope, what of those who have no hope? How can we not share him with them? As you can imagine, I was all the more thrilled therefore to witness baptisms this morning at our own church. He really is our only hope!

Words and music by Mark Altrogge
As recorded on Songs for the Cross-Centered Life

Lyrics

I come into Your presence
With nothing in my hands
I only bring thanksgiving
For Jesus, God and Man
I cast myself on mercy
I cast myself on love
I trust Your gracious promise
To wash me with Your blood.

I will not fear Your judgment
For me, no wrath I dread
For it was spent on Jesus
Poured out upon His head
When Satan’s accusations
Make my poor heart afraid
I hear my King declaring
“Father, that debt is paid.”

Jesus my only hope, my only plea
My righteousness, my Great High Priest
Who intercedes for me before the throne
Jesus, I trust in You alone.

© 2002 Sovereign Grace Praise (BMI).

In this, the final segment of my interview with Greg Haslam, Greg discusses being reformed and charismatic, Terry Virgo's spiritual influence on the church in the UK, and the role of the organization Terry heads up, Newfrontiers.

If you missed any of the other four parts of this interview, you can read them here:

1. Greg Haslam on Filling Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Pulpit
   
   
2. Greg Haslam on Leaving Newfrontiers for Westminster Chapel
   
   
3. Greg Haslam on the Primacy of Preaching
   
   
4. Greg Haslam on Unity Versus Doctrinal Integrity

Adrian
You combine an interest in the charismatic and reformed doctrine. I know that many of my US readers still find that combination hard to comprehend. Do you find that people look at you strangely sometimes from both sides, or do you feel that, in the UK at least, the wider Church understands it nowadays?

Greg
I sense that this combination of “Word and Spirit” is no longer the issue it was for many. The heat and dust seems to have settled on the controversies of the 1960's to 1990's, and many have gone back to the Bible, seen good practice in many churches, and agreed, “You were right!” As I said previously, I am convinced many more will come to the same conclusion and we shall reach “unity in the faith” on this matter. People still look at me strangely, but probably for other reasons I need to do something about!

Adrian
It seems to me that Newfrontiers, and Terry Virgo in particular, seem to be a growing force in the UK church scene that seems to, in part, change the perception most people have of the charismatic. So, unlike in the US, if one says the word “charismatic,” people increasingly think of a Newfrontiers church they know. Do you think that is a valid perception?

Greg
Terry Virgo is one of the most important Christian leaders God has raised up in the last thirty years. No wonder amazing doors continue to open for him and his message to the Church! He is wise, humble, full of grace, and a man of astonishing faithfulness and vision. Significantly, he is an outstanding prophetic voice and a remarkable Bible teacher. He combines Word and Spirit in striking ways, teaching truth in depth and seeing miracles accompany it, and he has influenced thousands of people around the world to model the same authentic Christianity we read of in the book of Acts. We're told by Christ to judge teachers “by their fruits” (Matthew 7). I've seen what Terry and his associates have built first-hand. I have been part of it. It is very impressive. It is not marked by the boasting, hype, self-serving, and exploitation that other leaders and movements have floundered on. When I say “Charismatic” he and his movement is what I most think of. It's biblical and dynamic in equal measure. Why divorce what God always meant to be together?

Adrian
As someone with a slightly more detached status these days, how do you see Newfrontiers, or for that matter other similar groups developing in the future?

Greg
I see them interfacing, interlacing, and having an increasingly beneficial influence upon one another, thus fostering greater unity in the wider body of Christ. If that doesn't happen, we might rightly ask, “What was that all about then?”

Adrian
One question no one seems to ask is what will Newfrontiers look like after Terry Virgo—not that he seems likely to go anywhere for some time to come! The Vineyard Movement seemed to struggle a little after the death of John Wimber. Do you think Newfrontiers will have a similar struggle in years to come?

Greg
Possibly. Under God, Terry has been the “father” of the movement in every respect. I don't know if an evident successor has emerged as yet. But Terry has never sought to hold things to himself. He has raised up like-minded leaders of stature. He has released them to “do their stuff” all over the world. He is not possessive. He believes in Church unity. He is a blessing to many outside Newfrontiers. Young leaders are emerging everywhere you look and church plants and adoptions increase by the week, with many Ephesians 4 ministries being released to serve them. I don't see this movement collapsing should Terry retire or be taken home. He has built too well. Only demonic attack, heresy, or some kind of character failure on the part of his followers could jeopardize all he has built, but many safeguards are in place to help prevent this.

Adrian
What do you think the wider Church will look like thirty years from now? Will existing denominations and groups of churches be intact? Will there still be the same arguments that divide us now?

Greg
I am pretty sure that intellectual, religious, social, and political persecution is emerging in our nation right now and will increase in the future. Arrests, imprisonment, and even martyrdoms could occur. Some loose unaffiliated churches and failed denominations will likely go to the wall. As the darkness deepens, it means that there is every possibility the light will become brighter. Christians will find each other, and find Christ more powerful among them, and then will find the courage to do and say the right things in spite of the pressure to panic or compromise. We can, and shall, make great progress in the conversion of dangerous false religionists, and among many who will be disillusioned with the failure of governments and other faiths to “give the goods.” Evolutionism, secularism, atheism, and religious syncretism will all be exposed for their lies. Truth will prevail and error cannot hold out forever.

Adrian
Well, Greg, it has been a pleasure to have you here. But before you go, do you have anything else you would like to say to my readers?

Greg
“Be who you is, ‘cos if you ain’t who you is, you is who you ain’t!”

Adrian
Thanks so much for joining us!

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Today I continue the interview with Greg Haslam which began yesterday in a post entitled “Greg Haslam on Filling Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Pulpit.”

Adrian
Yesterday you mentioned your previous church, which is a part of Newfrontiers. You still speak at Newfrontiers conferences, but your current church isn’t listed as a member. What exactly is your relationship with Newfrontiers, both personally and as a church?

Greg
Westminster Chapel has been a fairly unique and decidedly independent kind of place, with a significant influence on the wider church, primarily through the preaching and books of its ministers. It's probably time that this independence became inter-dependence on other streams and ministries. This is on my heart to achieve in the years ahead. These connections are likely to be varied since I've always been keen on unity in the church, and want to live out that conviction. This will mean friendships with all kinds of leaders and people, and openness to receive a wide diversity of ministry from outside as God leads.

Newfrontiers was always primarily about relationships rather than “names on a list” or being part of an organization. My relationships continue whenever time and opportunity permit. I value my dear friends in Newfrontiers, and still attend their Theology Forum, teach some of their leadership training courses, take part in the Brighton Leaders Conference, and preach at Newfrontiers churches whenever I can. The warmth of old friends is always incredible whenever I meet them!

I can't tell you how much I miss Newfrontiers! I relish any contact I have with Terry Virgo and other apostolic and prophetic guys. The Chapel hosts a monthly Newfrontiers London pastors’ gathering, which I attend whenever I can. The Chapel views Newfrontiers very positively indeed now, and we've had many of their leaders preach here. Yet I remain officially outside of that movement, in line with all God told me to do five years ago. This has led to many new and wonderful friendships with top leaders and great movements around the country, as well as opportunities to serve the wider body through church visits and ministry of the Word at major denominational and church-stream conferences. I am convinced that the wider body of Christ, including many evangelicals who ignored or allowed previous moves of the Holy Spirit to bypass them from the 1960's onwards, are going to be caught up in a new visitation of God—soon! I speak to this matter whenever I can, and I have just written two new books to help foster new openness to God in whatever way I can, and to help leaders to make sense of what God is going to do—A Radical Encounter with God (New Wine Press, October 2007) and Moving in the Prophetic (Monarch Publications, April 2008).

Continued in part three, "Greg Haslam On The Primacy of Preaching."

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Pentecostal/Charismatic Post-It Notes has put together a page of short quotes from last week's conference. Here are a few that stood out to me from his longer list:

• "For many of us we don’t flow in the prophetic because we don’t understand our sonship. We can read many books, but if we don’t get it settled that we are sons, then we will live as orphans for the rest of [our lives] waiting for the command of God rather than the heart of God. The prophetic is not about just hearing words, but about an encounter with a real Person." (Julian Adams)
  
  
• "It is ludicrous to believe in an intellectual way that Jesus Christ is raised from the dead alone — if he's alive, then he will speak and we will hear! He will act and we will see!" (Rob Rufus)
  
  
• "The true prophetic sees the future and brings the future into the now." (Rob Rufus)
  
  
• "It is ridiculous to try and fulfill a biblical vision without apostles and prophets!" (David Stroud)
  

My buddy, Pedro, kindly helped us with some of the live-blogging, and shared my hotel room. Here are his reflections on the conference.

"Attending the Together on A Mission conference was, to me, a carefully orchestrated privilege from God that I will cherish all my days.

Having so many people from 53 nations and various walks of life coming together all for the sake of Christ was awesome and very encouraging — indeed Jesus is alive. I have attended many conferences that have blessed me and have helped shape me, but TOAM07 was, for me, a command to arise and dig into those things that have been prepared for me from the foundation of the earth and that I will need to do by the grace of God.

During the worship, I stopped a couple of times to observe the lifted hands, the sea of heads, the expression of overwhelming joy on the faces of the people, and the dancing like David, king of Israel — a man after the heart of God — and I couldn’t [help] but see God in the midst of his people (2 Samuel 6:14). I danced like I have never danced. The spirit of worship was evidently upon the musicians and the choice of songs.

I traveled with two members of Jubilee Church, and the brotherly spirit was excellent. I shared a room with my dear friend, Adrian, and that was another conference of its own — it’s wonderful when God binds people together. How good it is when brethren dwell together in unity; it's like the anointing oil that runs down the beard of Aaron (Psalm 133). Enjoying sharing from the Word and our different experiences, we found ourselves going to bed when [other] people were planning to rise, yet we got to the conference strong and alert for Adrian to still conduct his interviews, as well as blog the conference.

Among other things I learned was to live one day at a time. This calls for faith and is needed now and in the days ahead more than ever before. The Word of God has ever been true, is true now, and will be true for all generations. Without a shadow of doubt, perilous times are coming, and are at hand. It is expedient that those who name the name of the Lord cry out till Jerusalem be made a praise on the earth, and reach out with compassion to those who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ — the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world — the only name given by which men can be saved.

Before leaving the conference, I had direction on how to do a couple of things differently in a very practical way, and truth be told, I believe I have received grace for the task because the teaching that came from those that ministered came with a lot of power (Acts 4:33). I feel very connected to the apostolic vision that the Scriptures set out clearly, and which Newfrontiers has received and is working tirelessly to fulfill.

In drawing to a close, I strongly believe that no one can fully comprehend the depth and breadth of what God in his infinite wisdom has birthed through that conference, but if Jesus tarries his coming much longer, the decade ahead will see, enjoy, and praise God for what many will be able to trace back to this conference."

I am thrilled to report that the majority of the main sessions, the Mobilise main sessions, and quite a few of the seminars and training tracks are now available to download for free.

Get over there now and start downloading, and keep checking back there for more as they continue to upload them!

Stephen van Rhyn
Stephen is the Lead Elder of Jubilee Community Church in Cape Town, South Africa. He is married to Anna and has two young boys, Josh and Ben, and one daughter, Bethany.

See also Andrew Fountain's notes from this talk, Leadership Lessons From Moses and Aaron.

Together On a Mission 2007 continues to have an impact as the talks are beginning to be made available on the Net. This talk from Stephen Van Rhyn (otherwise known as 'the other guy'!) is one of the first two made available online for which you can order a CD.

He took us to Exodus 32. Stephen began by explaining that this story teaches us that leadership matters. There was a direct correlation between the spiritual health of the leader and the spiritual health of the people. What we do matters. When Jesus said the crowds were harassed and helpless, they had experienced tremendous healing where ALL were being healed. This was because the people had no leader. There is no leadership responsibility, however small, that is insignificant. The kingdom of God advances on delegated leadership.

The church advances as it multiplies leadership. We are called to plant growing vibrant churches, and if we are to achieve this, great senior leadership is not enough. We need depth — great leadership at every level.

Aaron was seduced by his own success. We need to remember that we all need help. Aaron forgot that he was there because of Moses, and fell into pride and deception. Proverbs 16:18 warns against pride.

Aaron abdicated his leadership. He tried to give the people what they wanted rather than seeking God. The people are leading and he simply implements the desires of the people. This attitude pervades the Church today — give people what they want, take a survey, etc. We should be courageously leading the people to do what is right in the sight of God. We need to love people enough to give them God's best even if that is not popular. We cannot simply aim to entertain people and give them what they want!

Aaron called for God's people to sacrifice the wrong things. They weren't just sacrificing jewelery; they were sacrificing the Word of God and the presence of God. The ten commandments had already been given.

The Church is often reduced to an echo of the culture rather than a prophetic voice. We should be a thermostat, not a thermometer. Matthew Paris seems to understand the Bible more than many in the Church! We need to be those who have a submissive attitude to the Bible.

The presence of God was to be withdrawn. Moses wouldn't settle for an angel. Christian maturity is an increased desperation for the presence of God. The gifts can mess up our carefully constructed worship services.

Stephen contrasts Aaron's response to being found out in sin with David's response. God can deal with sin, but wants us to own up to it. We cannot fool God. When we are honest we find a God who is slow to anger and delights to forgive us. We need to admit what we have done wrong to the God of grace.

Moses' response indicated five things from which we can learn:

1. Moses sought God.
   
   
2. He wasn't content with personal success at the expense of corporate failure — he didn't take the option of destroying the people of God.
   
   
3. He didn't stay static in the face of evil. One man can radically change a nation.
   
   
4. Moses called Aaron to account. Senior leadership cannot have an “anything goes” attitude. This saved him from destruction.
   
   
5. Moses led and lived for the glory of God.

This past weekend I had the joy of having Mr. and Mrs. Fountain stay in our family home. We had a lovely time with them, and it was an encourgaing time for all of us. We chatted for hours about our shared theology and blogging geekiness whilst Andree and Anne chatted about their shared interest in various crafts. We got to take them to Jubilee Church, and took Anne to some of the places her family came from.

Perhaps the greatest surprise to me was when Andrew said he wanted to turn the tables on me and interview me, and also Andree (for the first few minutes at least, before she slipped away!)

Visit Andrew Fountain interviews Adrian Warnock to listen to the interview.

Andrew also took a few shots of Andree and me:

The following video clip was shown on the last morning of the conference and gives a more professional overview than my own amateur footage.

Here's a round-up of good posts from other bloggers on the Together for a Mission conference. These will give you an overall impression of their thoughts and reactions to the conference.

Links to Andrew Fountain's excellent brief notes on each talk have been added to my reports of the messages, and as mp3 downloads become available, links will also be provided to allow you to easily get to the audio of each talk. In addition to the sessions I have covered here on my blog, Andrew also wrote notes on the following main sessions and seminars:

• David Holden: The Holy Spirit and Your Church
  
  
• Rob Rufus: Five Ways of Increasing in the Spirit of Faith
  
  
• Terry Virgo: The Holy Spirit and Your Church - Baptism in the Spirit
  
  
• Terry Virgo: God is Turning a New Page for His People

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The Simple Pastor - Refreshed and Recharged

"It was a great time, I just so enjoyed worshipping God with thousands of others . . . . It was great to hear teaching that has equipped me as a church leader and to be caught up in a bigger vision of what God is doing around the world."

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Andrew Cottingham lists some of the highlights and statistics of the conference and says, "Many conferences exist for themselves, i.e. the better they are, the more people will attend the next one. This one exists for what happens back home."

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 1

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 2

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 3

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Dave Bish made a flying visit to the conference, and wrote a long article responding to my report of Dave Stroud's talk as follows:

"Maybe I don't hear more because I don't ask much. Surely it's not that hard to follow God's commands like 'earnestly desire prophecy'? If God offers detail, it'd be nice to have it. And we might not always hear right, but I think that's why in Acts 16 Luke adds i'we concluded'/i — which implies some measure of testing went on. On the frontline of mission, it's not like it's a tough one to work out. End result: they went and preached Christ. God wants to build his church. He will build his chruch. I want to be part of that. It's fair to say Together on a Mission has got me thinking. And it's got me believing."

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Delighted (Ed's Fallible Thoughts) reports:

"The Holy Spirit was there in power and moving in people, in me, in ways He hasn't done really before, which was very exciting."

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The Best is Yet to Come also has a series of posts on the conference. Here are links to each article:

On the Way to Glory!

The Weight of His Glory

We Must Have Spirit-Filled Churches

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Blaney Bible Blog responds to the conference as follows:

" . . . here is a group that is committed heart and soul to a vision of recovering New Testament Christianity in all its glory and establishing churches that embody this across the globe. Although they didn't quite say it, they almost said that their aim was to complete the Great Commission by themselves! What's more, if they had said it, I would have believed them! They are focused on establishing apostolic bases throughout the world; not just the planting of a church, but of a resource church that will be the fountain head of a network—churches that will plant churches that will plant churches . . . "

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What was YOUR reaction to being at the conference, or to reading these posts?

If you were there and are getting withdrawals, or you couldn't make it and want to see or hear for yourself what Newfrontiers is all about, help is at hand! There are already two of the main sessions available on audio to download for FREE from the Newfrontiers site.

Also I found this fantasitic video introduction to the work of Newfrontiers over on YouTube. The video was only designed to be shown in Newfrontiers churches, so it begins with mentioning the forthcoming offering — please don't be put off by that as no one at Newfrontiers is wanting your money. The rest of the video gives a fantastic overview of the worldwide reach of Newfrontiers and its mission.

UPDATE
In January 2008, the following post was identified as the 24th most-read post here on my blog. The 25th most popular post was "25% Off Logos Bible Software by Libronix."

Interviewing Rob at the end of the Together on a Mission 2007 Conference was memorable, and those who listened to the mp3 will know just how much laughter was a part of the conversation. In December 2007, the written transcript of this interview with Rob Rufus was published on my blog and included the following segments:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus: How to Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today
  
  
• How apostles Work Today

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It was a real delight to sit with Rob Rufus and Tope Koleoso at the end of the conference for the following wide-ranging interview. I would strongly encourage you to listen to this, especially if you want to get more insight into what these apostolic families of churches look like in practice, or if you are just intrigued to learn more about the Holy Spirit.

You can download the mp3 or listen to it right here on the blog:

Terry Virgo
Terry is based at Church of Christ the King, Brighton, UK, and leads the Newfrontiers team. A well-known Bible teacher, Terry speaks at conferences around the world. He has written several books, including No Well-Worn Paths, Does the Future Have a Church?, God’s Lavish Grace, and his latest, The Tide is Turning.

See also Andrew Fountain's notes from this talk, The Folly of Achan.

There are a few traditions within the family of Newfrontiers. One of them is that the father of the movement, Terry Virgo, always closes the conference. I always look forward to these messages. He manages to blend an amazing expositional gift with a strong prophetic edge. Last year's message on leadership was simply outstanding, and I hope that if you haven't already listened to that message you will do so. Terry is much loved by our family, and if you haven't yet made his acquaintance, Terry Virgo's blog and website, as well as my interview with him, are great places to find out more about him.

Terry seemed quite emotional on the video summary of the conference, which they showed us before he came to speak. He said this had been one of the most glorious weeks we had ever had together, and he was not wrong. I feel personally that this week has touched me at least as much as any previous conference I have attended. I always get excited to think of the amazing impact that a conference like this can have around the world.

The reason Terry was drawn to the book of Joshua was because of a sense he had that God was moving us into a new era. Joshua 7 is an astonishing chapter, and in many ways parallels the book of Acts. Acts and Joshua are in many ways similar books with the people going forward into a new break-out of a community.

The army is not a faceless army of robots — rather, it is people who have strengths, weaknesses, and vulnerabilities. We don't want any of us to be missing as we press forward together. The story of Achan might seem a strange place to take a conference like this during the final session. But Terry explained that he had felt the strong leading of the Spirit to do so.

The previous chapter ended with elation and excitement. Joshua was now famous as an invincible leader with an invincible army. Joshua takes on board the perceptions of those who he had sent rather than wisely seeking God. Then there is a crushing defeat. God had said no one will be able to stand against them. Now suddenly, Joshua is vulnerable and swings like a pendulum to, “We are finished!” He felt there was no future for him. We can feel that. Fear grips us sometimes.

Joshua then begins to cry to God. He doesn't ask the generals how did you fight? He doesn't just look to the immediate. What is the big picture? Two different perspectives.

1. What is happening to the Israelites?
   
   The invasion of the land was the fulfilment of the promises to Abraham, which in turn are a reflection of the plan of God for Adam. It is like a great recovery. Similar to Eden, there is a "don't touch."
   
   
2. What is happening to the Canaanites?
   
   At the same time he is blessing Israel, God is also coming in to judge the land. God had said to Abraham that the evil of Canaan was not yet enough. At this time the sins had got to such a state that God was judging gross evil that had affected every aspect of life.

The story turns on the actions of one man. A double-minded man caused the whole problem. An independent assessment results in a secret agenda. One of the soldiers is not persuaded. He isn't single-purposed. He is finding what God finds unattractive to attract him. He saw. Be careful what you look at. You might say, “I couldn't help seeing.” The forbidden thing can seem delightful. Be careful of the lust of the eyes. We have a vulnerable spot. We can't help seeing, but there is a power that can come. Jesus said some brutal words — gouge out your eye. There is a danger in seeing.

David was a man after God's own heart. Everything about him was magnificent. But one day when he didn't go to battle he saw something. He is ruined. The path is to shame, disaster, and death. Achan wished he had never ever seen. If I hadn't gone there, I wouldn't have seen it. Why then do some of us choose to look? Why do some of us go to the place where you know you will see it? Why are some of us so stupid as to not just catch a glimpse, but we go back to look again? We live in an age where we can hardly help seeing, but don't go back there.

After he saw, he coveted. He allowed his imagination to captivate him. Obviously we tend to think of sexual sin in this area. But the Bible here is talking about riches. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation . . . which plunges men into destruction. (1 Timothy 6:9) It's not just having wealth, but the prestige, power, and independence that goes with it. Wealth means that you can tell the rest of the world to get lost. Lust conceives and gives birth to sin which gives birth to death.

So he saw, he coveted, then finally he took. He defied God's clear command. Like David, he took what he knew he should never have touched. Then, he finally hid. He wasn't fulfilled. Because it was forbidden, you can have it, but no one else is allowed to know. There is no abandonment and fulfilment of joy like we experienced last night during worship. Instead, they had to hide from the Lord.

Secret sin leads to relational problems. It ruins. Imagine what David must have felt looking in the eye of his general who he'd told to arrange the death of Uriah.

The wrath of God was coming. God looks at our planet today and says, “Enough of this!” In all the joy and light and break-out of the Church, there is also a revelation of the judgment of God. Which side are we on? The whole battle turns on a double-hearted double-minded person. Are we in this together?

HOW COULD THE DISASTER HAVE BEEN AVOIDED?

• Joshua should have avoided self-sufficiency. We need to be fearfully aware of our total dependence on God. Before Jericho, he knew he needed God. Suddenly he thought, “I can do this now.” God wants us to be listening. Beware the lure of independence.
  
  
• Achan completely forgot his identity and his purpose. Christianity is an essentially corporate experience. He is in step. Suddenly he gets another idea, and becomes out-of-step. He was not ruthlessly committed to God's perspective. God is angry against sin. “Who knows the power of his anger?” If we don't feel anger, then we are not in step with God's view of our society.

We are part of a body. God told us to make disciples. They did this by forming churches. The only way to become a mature disciple of Christ is to be part of a church. Church is not just for your social life, it's for your salvation. It kills the desire to sin. It is not all about your personal fulfilment. It is not all about us. We die to self and get baptized into an army, a body, a people. God does love us and has a wonderful plan for our lives, but he wants us to be part of a community to work it out. God doesn't want a faceless army.

A Christian is a member of Christ. Our fulfilment is found in him. Don't float. Find a group that takes church seriously. "Elder" isn't just a title. They are shepherds. They are here for us to be led. It is not that are characterized by the volunteering of self for the benefit of others is what God wants in his Church. We need to have a network of mutual care and support. Let's abandon the "my rights" concept. The Gospel is totally contrary to that. We need to make space for people and die to ourselves. Let's live for the people of God. We love the Church as Christ's bride, his treasure, his workmanship.

We are light. We are meant to shine in the places where we are. We used to be darkness. We are to go to all the world bringing in the light. We died with Christ. We were raised with him. We are seated in the heavenlies. We didn't get ourselves there. We are a new creation. We are righteous. Now let's live like it! Christ's wonderful life was credited to me. He has made us righteous as a gift. Now we must live it out. It's not so much about “don't touch, don't taste, don't handle.” Legalism doesn't produce righteousness. Now God sees us as righteous — now live it. We are no longer what we were. Martyn Lloyd-Jones says we need to talk to ourselves. He said, “If you don't preach to yourself, you are not a Christian.” We are light, what should we have to do with darkness?

The story ends with ruthless execution. It's a shocking ending for our ears. He was put to death. God said, “I won't have it.” We see the same thing happening in the midst of a NT revival. A couple lied to the Spirit, missed it, and were killed by God. There are people who have missed it, even in their middle years. Be ruthless. Seek the things above. Set your mind on things above. Put to death what belongs to your earthly body. We need a new body. In the meantime, we must take responsibility for our bodies. Put to death the things that lead to the wrath of God. Why do we play games with the things that mean the wrath of God is coming?

We must put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit. How do we do that?

• Engage with the Spirit. Get baptized with the spirit.
  
  
• Enjoy the Spirit. Don t just tick it off as something we have done. Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit. When you are enjoying him and his fellowship, it is much easier to resist temptation. Get full of Him.
  
  
• Have the energy of the Spirit. By his presence and power we share in the divine nature. Ephesians 5 is the Holy Spirit-filled life. Enjoy the life of God.
  
  
• Have the eschatology of the Spirit. He is the promise of the age to come. He is a foretaste of eternal glory. It's a down-payment. It's heaven coming down to where we are now. We are having a taste of the eternal glory. Darkness has nearly gone, the light is coming. Day is at hand. Don't live in the dark. We are the light of the world. Walk as children of the light. Don't play around with something less than that.

God poured out his wrath on Jesus so that he could pour out his love on us.

Be ruthless. Say I am not going there any more. I am blocking a channel. I am making myself accountable. Don't be fulfilled by sin, be ruthless instead. They killed Achan.

The opening verse of the next chapter turns the page and says, “Don't be frightened, remember who you are . . . now go and take Ai.” Let's be ruthless, and move on to victory.

I spoke with Tope, who is the lead elder of Jubilee Church, about his impression of this sermon. He replied as follows:

"With forceful passion, engaging delivery of truth, incredible urgency and raised voice, and utter conviction, Terry Virgo preached until he himself was consumed in the sermon, leaving us with an unadulturated view of the Word of God that left us all challenged and transformed, meek and strong, and grateful and amazed."

Sam Poe
Sam serves on the Newfrontiers apostolic team in the USA. He and his wife, Marlene, have travelled widely, serving churches in the USA and other nations. In recent years they have been particularly involved in working together with a number of churches in Russia and the Ukraine. Sam and Marlene are presently based in Tacoma, Washington, USA, where they are part of a new church plant. Sam is also serving other churches related to Newfrontiers in that region as part of the apostolic team.

Guy Miller
Guy Miller leads the Bournemouth Family Church, UK and leads apostolic teams that serve the Wessex Region with seventeen churches. He also overseas the work of 21 churches in the North and West of India, and two churches in Portugal. He is a passionate family man, married to Heather, with four children, and loves fishing.

Prophets in the New Testament are not meant to be lonely isolated people who suddenly appear with a message from God. Rather, we are called to live in community, in team life. We are family; we are in a real relationship. Prophets are meant to work together in team with each other, and also with the other ministries.

Biblical Base For Team

• Acts 11:27-28
  “Some prophets” — notice it's a team. Agabus was part of a prophetic team that came from the Jerusalem church.
  
  
• Acts 13:1-3
  Again it says "prophets" (plural) and "teachers" (plural). There was a team of leaders in the church, and when they were together, the Spirit began to speak. Acts 15 — at the Council of Jerusalem, at the conclusion, some key leaders were chosen to go back with Paul and Barnabus. Judas and Silas went and said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers.
  
  
• 1 Timothy 4:14
  The prophecy came amidst the body of elders. Prophetic ministry releases things in people.

The foundational basis for this “team-life” is our triune God. God lives throughout all eternity in wonderful and joyous community. Three magnificent persons, ONE living God. When someone says the word “God,” do you think of him that way? God really is three-in-one. We are called not only to teach trinitarian theology, but to live trinitarian ways. 1 John 1:3-4. We need to be in fellowship with the persons of God and then reach out to others. There is an overflowing joy in the Trinity.

“The being of the church should echo the dynamic of the relations between the three persons who together constitute the Deity.” (Gunton)

This should put an end to all isolated one-man-band ministry.

Some of the Benefits of Prophetic Team Ministry

• The joy of serving together — a relational side. The prophetic can be a bit intense; working in team helps us to avoid getting that way. It helps us to not take ourselves so seriously. There is a rest in it.
  
  
• There is a fuller flow of revelation. No one gets it all. If a team prophesies, the results will be more full-orbed.
  
  
• Immediate accountability. There can be an immediate weighing of words.
  
  
• It can help check eccentricities. Some prophetic guys seem to think the weirder we can get the better. Lone ministries have no one who asks them, “Why are you being so weird?”
  
  
• Avoidance of the “super-star” syndrome. We all need help. We must not get our personal identity wrapped up in our gifting. There is a risk of over-exposure and feeling almost like a prophesying machine. You can begin to feel used.
  
  
• Avoidance of personal control or the manipulation of others. Never prophecy to get someone to do what you want them to do! Often we don't understand what we are saying when we prophesy, rather than trying to get anybody to do anything. (2 Corinthians 4:2 — see the way The Message interprets that.) The word is out there and can be weighed rather than with secret manipulation.
  
  
• Helps create an atmosphere of humility and submission. 1 Corinthians 14:29-33. Sometimes you can get a revelation that you don't share because you have to stop. Wait your turn. Stop and give someone else a chance, i.e. make room for others. If someone works alone, it's easy to overlook the authority and oversight of the local church leadership. Elders are the door of a church and have authority.
  
  
• Helps train up younger prophetic ministries.

The Value of Prophets Being Teamed With Apostles

• In 2004 there was a whole seminar on this topic.
  
  
• These two foundational ministries need to work together. Every single local church needs that foundation laid in it. This is teamwork.
  
  
• 1 Thessalonians was written by Paul, Silas, and Timothy. There is a team at work. Paul leads the team, but Silas is a prophet.
  
  
• Apostolic wisdom, teaching, and strategy, coupled with immediate prophetic revelation bring strength and vibrancy to local churches.

In Conclusion

• Prophetic teamwork is of great value. It's the primary NT model for prophetic ministry.

This week I have been more conscious than usual of how very different we in Newfrontiers are from the church experience that many of my readers have had. I am conscious that sharing this amateur video clip might surprise some of you. You will see us praying, worshipping, and giving an offering, but doing each of these in a way quite unlike what you may have seen before. The Adrian who can enjoy being a part of all this really is the same Adrian who last week was battling for the doctrine of the atonement. That might surprise you, especially when you realise I am not really just a moderate charismatic, but someone who longs for a more and more vibrant experience of God. But then, if you are a long-term reader of this blog, you probably knew that already! I hope this set of photos and then video clips capture something of the heart of this conference. To be in a room full of people praying their hearts out, giving their money to our common mission, and then celebrating our glorious God was thrilling.

Please note: The sound on this video doesn't begin until the 6:34 point has been reached. From that point on, you can enjoy both sound and video.

Many decades ago Smith Wigglesworth shared the following prophecy about my nation. It was read out at the end of Dave Stroud's session earlier today. There was a very strong sense in the room that this prophecy about what would happen in the UK had been shown to be accurate in many ways in the events of the past few decades. There was, therefore, also an expectation that just maybe the end of that word which speaks about a major revival will also prove to be correct. A major revival was the hope of the Puritans and many others who have gone before. As I thought about these words, I was reminded of my trip at the weekend to the church where George Whitefield is buried. I felt that in the room today an incredible expectancy was birthed that just maybe God would move in revival power in our land sooner than we could dare to imagine.

THE GREAT REVIVAL
“During the next few decades there will be two distinct moves of the Holy Spirit across the Church in Great Britain. The first move will affect every church that is open to receive it and will be characterised by a restoration of the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The second move of the Holy Spirit will result in people leaving historic churches and planting new churches.

In the duration of each of these moves, the people who are involved will say, ‘This is the great revival.’ But the Lord says, ‘No, neither is this the great revival, but both are steps towards it.’

When the new church phase is on the wane, there will be evidenced in the churches something that has not been seen before: a coming together of those with an emphasis on the Word and those with an emphasis on the Spirit. When the Word and the Spirit come together, there will be the biggest movement of the Holy Spirit that the nation, and indeed, the world, has ever seen. It will mark the beginning of a revival that will eclipse anything that has been witnessed within these shores, even the Wesleyan and the Welsh revivals of former years. The outpouring of God’s Spirit will flow over from the United Kingdom to the mainland of Europe, and from there, will begin a missionary move to the ends of the earth.”

— Smith Wigglesworth, 1947

UPDATE
The written transcript of this interview is now available. It can be read at the following pages:

• John Lanferman of Newfrontiers USA
  
  
• John Lanferman on Reformed Charismatic Churches in the USA

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In case any of you think that Together On A Mission is just a UK conference, I decided to interview John Lanferman, who is the leader of Newfrontiers USA. There are, in fact, many here from a multitude of different nations.

This interview with John Lanferman was a lot of fun, and if you want to know what Newfrontiers is doing in the USA, then this interview is a great place to start. We also discussed the broader American church scene, and his understanding of just what a missional church is.

You can listen to that message right here or download it to your computer:

Rob Rufus
Rob was saved out of the Hare Krishna movement. He has been used to release the power of the Holy Spirit and to bring healings to many people. Rob planted and led Victory Faith Centre, South Africa for twelve years and then worked with Dudley Daniel at Coastlands Christian Centre in Adelaide, Australia. In 2005 he moved to Hong Kong to plant a church, which is growing rapidly.

Rob began his talk today by sharing his story, and how God brought it back to him as he was preparing for this talk. God demonstrates his love to us with his manifest presence. When he was living away from God, there was a time when he suddenly experienced the presence of God in such a way that it terrified him. Eventually he gave up running from Jesus. Then the presence came in such a way that he felt special and precious and valued by God. Since then, he says the pursuit of his life has been seeking the presence of God. Seeking the power of God leads to a life of utter unfulfilment.

We need to be sane, not religious. Some people who seem to move in the most power seem strange and almost insane. Jesus was not like that. He enjoyed being with people, would be in the middle of festivities. Jesus turned gallons of water into wine. Evangelicals have been trying to turn it back again for centuries. God wants us to be full of the abundant power of God. When we are filled with the glory of God we will be changed. This new ministry found in 2 Corinthians 3 is something fresh and delightful, bringing life. Liberty and freedom and grace come upon us and we are seen as perfect forever (Hebrews 10:14). We now carry the power of God in our frail bodies.

We can't live for the crowds, success, and miracles. We will never be satisfied with the power. We will only be satisfied with who God is, not just what God does. The presence of God thrills us and fulfils us. Enjoy the presence of God. Become a close friend of God. We need God-encounters to hear his voice, to experience him. In his presence there is always fullness of joy and pleasures forevermore.

Acts 9. Saul asked a question and answered it in the same verse: “Who are you, Lord?” Saul was saved on the Damascus road, but only filled with the Spirit when Ananias prayed for him. While Saul was persecuting, he (unbeknown to him) had already been set apart to be an Apostle. We are told he had been set apart from his mother's womb. When the glory comes, you are suddenly in the eternal realm. We are commanded to “Arise and shine, for your light has come!” Isaiah 60. We must take God out of the box in which we place him in our minds. He is eternally glorious and can do anything.

The Bible is full of signs and wonders. The best way to contradict counterfeit signs and wonders is to see the genuine wonders of God. The true prophetic sees the future and becomes the future in the now by coming into the cloud of the glory. What we are looking for is the powers of the age to come to break back into this current realm.

Once again this was a very difficult talk to take notes on. There was a strong sense of the presence of God in the room, and a desire to see more of God's glory manifest in our experience. This is a talk to listen to rather than read about. At the end of the message, a number of people testified to having been healed this week, mostly without anyone having prayed for them. It will be interesting to hear the confirmation of what God has been doing.

David Stroud
David Stroud leads ChristChurch, London, and the Newfrontiers UK team. He has been involved in leading churches for over fifteen years, and ChristChurch is the third church that he has planted. He is married to Philippa, who works as an adviser on issues of social justice in Westminster, and they have three children.

See also Andrew Fountain's notes from this talk: Being Sure of Who We Are as a People.

Dave Stroud spoke to us today about the identity markers of Newfrontiers.

We must be very clear on who God is and who he has made us to be. If we forget who we are, then we will not be able to handle the things that happen. Dave wanted to spend his session reminding us what holds us together as a movement. What underlines our confidence? What enables to respond with boldness? Dave took us to the first few verses of Acts 13 and the church of Antioch. At its height, one in three people of Antioch were believers. It was a church that sent people out for a century after these events.

FIVE THINGS THAT TIE US TOGETHER

1. We are a people of the Spirit.
   
   There were prophets in the church at Antioch. This happens when the Spirit is poured out. They know something of the closeness of God. When Paul and Barnabas went, if asked, they would have said, “God said to us!” We have experienced something of the presence of God that has drawn us together. We don't make decisions on the basis of strategic planning as in businesses. Big decisions in the NT church, and in our churches, are made because God spoke. For example, “The Spirit of Jesus wouldn't let them” go somewhere. We as Newfrontiers have always sought to be led by the Spirit of God. For example, a couple were considering moving to Dublin to start a Newfrontiers church. They believed that God was speaking to them and prayed that God would speak to their kids. The next morning their daughter came down and said, “Are we moving?” Their ten-year old daughter had a dream of a sundial in the garden, a porthole, and windows that were not windows in the roof. The parents said nothing, but took their children on a weekend trip to Dublin. They were walking and looked in the window of one estate agent, whereupon their daughter suddenly said, “Thats the house I saw in my dream!” Sure enough, they ended up buying that house, and it was exactly as their daughter described. John Wimber felt God say when he arrived in London, “Give me back MY church!” It doesn't belong to us. When the Spirit speaks, people go and become those they never thought they could be.
   
   
2. We are deeply dependent on Scripture.
   
   It wasn't just prophets, but teachers also. We bow to God's Word. We give ourselves to it and develop a habit. The world tells us to set ourselves free by deciding what is right. In some cultures people treat their neighbours with respect; in others they eat them, and it's all done on the basis of feelings. We cannot just take the Holy Spirit bit. We must let the Word get to us. We must submit to the Word. Teachers lift the Word for us corporately. We can't just make it up. We must keep coming back to being shaped by Scripture. We shape ourselves individually and corporately by The Book. Prophets and teachers work together. Two sides of the same coin. Word and Spirit together.
   
   
3. We believe that these Word and Spirit churches are to be multiplied all over the world.
   
   In Antioch they were living for an outbreak of the Spirit, globally not just locally. We need to take salvation to the ends of the earth. We cannot simply be focused on the nation where we live. We need a heart for the nations. Paul and Barnabas knew that at some point they had to go — there was a timing with God. They built a strong sending base where they were, and then they went and started churches. That is the biblical model for going to the nations. Churches are something that can reach people in decades. It's Spirit people founded on the Word going to the nations with clear annointed leadership.
   
   
4. We believe in the Ephesians 4 ministries.
   
   The terms of Ephesians 4 are not just useful terms; rather they are uniquely fitted to get the mission done. The Church functions well with this leadership. Imagine if a general replaced your head teacher at a primary school and ran it like an army! Imagine the army going into battle and the general is replaced with a conductor. In the same way, it is ridiculous to try and fulfil the biblical vision without apostles and prophets. That is the sort of leadership God has given. What Paul did is needed today. Apostles give to churches a sense of identity. Apostles will aggressively see the big picture and want to see nations filled with churches.
   
   
5. We are full of confidence.
   
   Why were Paul and Barnabus ready to take such a big step? It was because they knew that God would succeed. God will give us all we need so we can go. God will have a bride for himself. Even though that doesn't mean that everything we touch will succeed, knowing the eventual triumph of God's Word will strengthen our resolve, even when things are tough. As someone said, “Expect great things from God. Attempt great things for God.” We have the privilege of cooperating with God.

HOW DO WE RESPOND TO THIS?

• Don't get stuck in one place
  
  The world is too big! Sometimes a promotion from God requires us to physically move. For example, Elijah passed on the call of God to anoint a king to Elisha who himself handed it on. We have to hand on the promises we have for an area and pass them on. The vision is bigger than what we can accomplish. We must be open to the Lord. We must trust him to help those who are left behind.
  
  
• Stay connected to Apostles and Prophets
  
  Following anointed leadership gives benefits to ourselves. Leaders shape us and give us impetus. Apostles and prophets are given by God and have anointing given by him. Apostles create spheres and an anointing goes with it. Word and Spirit churches are not built by one leader. We are a family of Word and Spirit churches going to the nations under anointed leadership and full of confidence that God will fulfil his mission.

Here I am, sitting in a cinema next door to the conference center. Those of you who read regularly will realize that I'm feeling very at home, since the London church of which I'm a part also meets in a cinema. There is something about these venues that encourage you to shut out the world and close yourself in with God. I love the banked seating that enables you to see what is going on down below. That's another point — in an age when some churches elevate the role of the pastor too much, it somehow communicates something good when our leaders are standing beneath us rather than up on the stage. There is nothing wrong with stages, but it's possible for them to be misinterpreted as raising our leaders too high. If you have a large room and fill it with people, there are only two choices — either lift the leaders up on a stage or lift the people up on tiered seating. Anyway, back to the seminar.

Julian Adams
Julian is originally from Bay Community Church, Cape Town, South Africa, where he was an elder. He moved to the UK last August in response to God’s leading for him to be with Terry Virgo for a season and become part of Church of Christ the King, Brighton. Julian has an amazing prophetic gift and has travelled widely over the past few months serving the Newfrontiers churches in the UK.

Guy Miller
Guy Miller leads the Bournemouth Family Church, UK and leads apostolic teams that serve the Wessex Region with seventeen churches. He also overseas the work of 21 churches in the North and West of India and two churches in Portugal. He is a passionate family man, married to Heather with four children, and loves fishing.

Julian began by explaining that we need to raise the level of prophecy. We need to avoid the weird mystical things that go on in the world of prophecy. Our prophecy needs to be full of truth and must be weighed with a clear biblical understanding and application. We must be able to spot false prophetic ministry.

Guy then spoke about how Jesus has given to his Church power gifts to know him and extend his kingdom. Sometimes these gifts are trivialized and treated like wrapping paper, or they can be placed to one side and we are told we don't need them. There is sadly so much rubbish that goes on. It's no wonder that the Scripture warns us both to not put out the Spirit's fire and to test and weigh prophecy.

The roots of prophecy are found in the OT. Genesis 20:7. God spoke of Abraham as a prophet. But the one which is used as a normative one is Moses. Deuteronomy 18:14. Prophets in the OT are clearly people who are called and have a clear role among the people of God. The prophet's primary role is to bring a clear proclamation. There is a connection between the people of God and the living God. Prophets bring a living connection to God. Prediction is not primary, God is primary. The prophet brings the presence of God. Our God reigns.

Prediction is, however, a part of the prophetic movement. They see something over the horizon. The scope of the prophet is wide. Prophets see. Prayer is also a key part of the life of the prophet. These men knew where the power came from. The prophet himself was not the final judge of the validity of their own revelation. Fulfilment is not the supreme and genuine test of a prophet. False prophets can get it right sometimes. The true test is much more theological. The false prophet will draw people away from a true relationship with God. A true prophet will draw people into adoration and a closer relationship with God and the holiness that results.

Prophecy forms the greatest line of continuity between the Old and New Testaments. The last OT-style prophet was John the Baptist, who pointed to the One who was the fulfilment of all prophecy.

Shoots of prophecy. 1 Corinthians 14:1-5. The NT gift is something to be eagerly desired. Paul wanted everyone to prophecy. ALL. Men and women, young and old. We should be a prophetic community. Prophets are those who are recognized and move in a continuous way in this gift. The truth is that the Holy Spirit's gifts are gifts of a loving God to be used in love by God's loving people. How much do I love God? How much do I love these people? If you have a prophetic impulse, the motivation should be to share it — it should bring encouragement and maturity to the hearers.

This gift speaks to men for their strengthening. Prophecy is not adding in any way to the bible. It is under the bible. We judge it by the bible. The bible is like our map, we judge everything by it. Prophecy is like a compass which helps us know where we are on the map. We need the prophetic, and we must also be devoted to the scriptures.

How do we prophecy? We must be submitted to authority. We must be under the word of God, but also in the context of the local church. We must be submitted to the church's leaders. Prophecy should not lead to individualism, but rather it should be part of a loving community. Prophecy is clear, intelligible, scriptural, and truthful. There can definitely be too many prophecies in a meeting.

How does God speak? In visions. In words. Preaching can be prophetic. It can be through things we see in the world around us. We want this gift to not be in the isolated "Lone Ranger" world. We want to be a part of the community of God. The fruit of prophecy is edification — strengthening, encouragement, and comfort.

Edification — there must be a building process. We should feel closer to God and closer to our brothers and sisters.

Encouragement and comfort — there should be a courage transfusion that takes place.

Unbelievers falling down — prophecy is not always seeker-sensitive. They need to experience the power of God! Prophecy is intended to bring people to Jesus. Meeting with God. Let's not try and tame our meetings. We need the dynamic of the Spirit.

__________________________

Those of you who read my blog and who were there will know that I was singled out for some specific personal prophetic words during the ministry time. They impacted me so much that I didn't get the chance to jot down some of the things that were said. If you heard the words, do feel free to send me an e-mail with what you remember at adrian.warnock@gmail.com — but as they are, of course, personal, don't share them in my comment box or elsewhere on the web!

At Together On A Mission, we also have a conference within a conference for students and those in their 20's. It was a real pleasure to interview Tom Shaw, a friend of mine, who heads up that conference. You can listen to that message right here or download it to your computer:

Technical issues prevented us from publishing my friend Pedro's notes of the first day until now. Pedro said that of the meetings so far, he was pleased to see how well attended the conference had been, and he was very pleased to see the response of the people from different churches. He felt that there was a strong sense of the presence of God. During the session led by Rob Rufus, he was reminded of the beauty of serving God, and also the beauty of knowing that he is all powerful and wants us to hook up with his power. Here are Pedro's notes from the second session:

• Rob eagerly urged the people of God to live a day at a time—sufficient is the day's evil. We are entering days when ministers will enjoy serving the Lord by letting God carry their burdens through ministering to the Lord and he ministering to the people.
  
  
• We are in the days of strong prophecy, and prophecy creates potentials and connects us to God when we receive it. We need to be filled with the spirit of faith—is not only for the ministers or for special people; it is for all of God's people. It is important to note that we're not talking of intellectual faith that is rampant in our world today. That kind of faith is tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
  
  
• We are constantly confronted by two kingdoms—the kingdom of the earth and the kingdom of heaven, and we reflect the one of which we are most conscious. The spirit of faith is more important than the intellectual doctrine of faith. When we step out into the supernatural, we will receive opposition, but boldness will activate and encourage the spirit of faith—faith is not passive.
  
  
• The joy of the Lord is our strength, and it enables us to worship God without shame.

There was a slightly longer break between the last session and this one. I took advantage of the opportunity to doze. I didn't think I was heavily asleep, but a friend of mine said he knocked loudly on my door and called my name without getting any response! As a result of my sleep, I do feel a lot fresher and am now even more eager to hear from Dave Devenish, who will be preaching to us this evening.

David Devenish
Dave Devenish of Woodside Church Bedford UK now leads teams working with churches in the Ukraine, and other eastern European nations.

See also Andrew Fountain's notes from this talk: The Ephesus Mission - A Pattern for World Evangelism.

David is a unique gift of God to our family of churches. His voice and delivery are unique and his passionate love of the global work of God in and through His Church are impossible to miss. Dave took us to Acts 19. He gave his talk the title, “The Ephesus Mission — A Pattern For World Evangelization.”

We in Newfrontiers are all being mobilized to go on a mission together to the ends of the earth. The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. This promise of God is repeated in several places in the Scriptures. Devenish explained that this verse keeps him going through all the challenges of building churches around the world, and in some of the most challenging nations in which he works. The mission of God is that he will be glorified in all the earth. We are witnesses from God. What is my inheritance in your mission to this world?

Ephesus was a church with influence. God wants to build large churches that will make a difference. In Bedford we have around 1% of the population in a Newfrontiers church. In Ephesus God was made known in contrast to the false Gods — “These man-made gods are no gods at all!” The city and the province were filled, and there was also opposition.

We need to follow the same strategy we see in Ephesus, even if it takes a lot longer than three years. So what was Paul's strategy?

1. He established a base church that would become an Apostolic base. Paul planted key churches in cities and let them fill in around them. The Lord's message rang out from individual churches. Amazingly, back in Acts 16, Paul was kept from going to Asia. There was a need to act in line with God's prophetic timing. God's timing is critical. Paul did go briefly, and sent a pioneer couple who he left there in faith.
   
   
2. He insured that key values were established in the core group. When Paul arrived, he met some disciples, and realized something was wrong. An area of weakness in establishing a church is not making sure that the key people understand the core values. An example might be not setting some of the first converts free from fear. Suddenly the whole church can be full of fear. Paul was firm in his desire to plant a community of the Spirit. We need people to have the power of God to deal with everything they are going to face. The core group needs to know and understand what we are going to build.
   
   
3. Paul taught consistent teaching of Apostolic revelation daily. Standing in one hall and teaching led to a whole region hearing the Gospel. What was taught was so clear that everyone heard. Such commitment to teach and such hunger to receive will have such benefits. Dave has a body of doctrine that he teaches almost everywhere he goes; he shares what he believes is an Apostolic foundation for the church. There is a body of foundational truth that we have to teach in every church. There is a need also to grasp the big picture from Genesis to Revelation — the purposes of God revealed, fulfilled in Christ, and the part you play in fulfilling God's work in response to what Christ has done. God has started remaking the world. Christ is the seed of Abraham and through him every nation will be blessed. We have our part in bringing those blessings to the world. God's kingdom is being revealed in the son of David. Christ's reign has begun now. We are part of that kingdom — a new people from every nation who are all one in Christ.
   
   
4. Power Evangelism. Paul did no ordinary miracles! There was a tangible anointing. It is interesting to see that there was a transferable tangible thing that could even be imparted via handkerchiefs that had touched him. The ordinary things of Paul's trade were touched by God's power. God wants us to become more familiar with his anointing. Healings can happen suddenly and sovereignly by God without us doing anything to trigger them. Sometimes healing can happen when we, in faith, cry out to God to heal. Dave also had some stories to share of his own experience in this area.
   
   
5. They confronted the culture and worldview. The strongholds of a culture need to be addressed. There was a very dramatic example of that in this chapter. Ephesus had a large number of gods, so someone tried to adopt Jesus as just another one. The demons knew not only who Jesus was, but who Paul was. Demonic strongholds had to be confronted. Church life in the West panders to consumerism or business management efficiency without really challenging our culture with the Gospel. When the people saw the power of God manifest, they dealt with the manifestations of their magical culture. They repented of the hidden things. Often people can believe on a fragment of truth and a felt need, but there are things that then need to be confronted.
   
   
6. Paul models relational servant leadership. Paul calls on the elders to imitate the way he led them. Paul had a relational style of leadership. He wasn't just on platforms, but house-to-house. There was much weeping when Paul told them he wouldn't see them again.
   
   
7. Paul endured massive opposition and pressure. Paul spoke of the hardships he suffered in the province of Asia in his letter to the Corinthians. It led almost to despair. We can't underestimate what a challenge it is to go into a place where there are no believers.
   
   
8. He prepared for future advance. While revival was happening, he was planning to move on. He knew he had to move on. The savage wolves were the elders' responsibility — he wouldn't stay because he had to move on. Apostles are not the senior managers of a region; they are called by God to train leaders to establish the Church and then move on.

The kingdom of God needs to come to every area of our world and every type of people. God is calling us to be on a mission together. Let's follow this way.

Here we are with session five, which is the second one I have attended. I already feel like I'm at home. I love conferences, and especially conferences with this worldwide family I'm so thrilled to be part of. These conferences have been a part of my life for several decades. I wish I could bring all of you, my dear readers, here. These notes aim to give you something of a feel for the event. But I'm not sure I can communicate it properly. There are some things that writing can't communicate. For example, meeting Andy Cottingham in a break and seeing how affected he was, I knew that what he had said in his post could not in any way have communicated the strongly passionate and emotional state he was in!

Rob Rufus
Rob was saved out of the Hare Krishna movement. He has been used to release the power of the Holy Spirit and to bring healings to many people. Rob planted and led Victory Faith Centre, South Africa for twelve years and then worked with Dudley Daniel at Coastlands Christian Centre in Adelaide, Australia. In 2005 he moved to Hong Kong to plant a church, which is growing rapidly.

See also Andrew Fountain's notes from this talk: The Spirit of Faith.

Rob Rufus began by explaining that he was changing his plans as he had felt prompted to change track. He launched straight into explaining that faith is not faith in faith, but faith in God. He recapped that he had spoken about a primitive faith that was in the early church. Rob Rufus explained that faith is contagious and courageous. Faith in others provokes you to take initiave yourself. Faith should produce humility, boldness, and obedience. Unbelief causes fear, pride, and rebellion.

Rob also admitted that it is difficult to take notes from his talks, so I apologise up front for the fact that I will not be able to reflect the full-orbed content of this talk. At least it will be available to download for free soon!

Rob was eager to dispel the myth that God only responds to our prayers and that he does nothing unless we pray. This is quite simply not true, for whose prayer did God answer when he created the universe! God really is sovereign and has his own initiative, although he does choose to respond to us at times. Jesus went wherever he felt God was leading him. Our faith is not running the universe. Spurgeon said something like the serenity of God is not an excuse for our laziness; it is a couch for our restfulness.

We must realise that living by faith does not mean that nothing bad will ever happen to us or our children. Paul was a mighty man of faith, but terrible troubles hit him, which he called “light and momentary troubles.”

We should be honest with God. Tell him, “I don't have faith for that.” God doesn't just give grace for the humble, he gives faith to the humble. We shouldn't say it's not God's will to heal today just because of our inability to pray for healing. The disciples couldn't heal a boy, then Jesus came and did so. Jesus himself said, “All things are possible for those who believe.” We are weak and need God to help us. “Lord, I believe, help my unbelief.”

We need to learn to exercise the spirit of faith. We have to take steps of boldness. Peter got out of the boat and, yes, he sank, but it's better to die trying to walk on the water than to stay safe in the religious boat of doing nothing. Rob told several stories from his own experience of when God both had and had not healed people for whom he had prayed. He felt the exercise of faith which had led to nothing had somehow increased his faith to later pray and see healings result. He also spoke of times when God had sovereignly healed people in their church who had not been prayed for. Teaching God's Word produces faith. Words of knowledge can give specific faith for a specific case of healing.

Acts 6. Miracle faith is also activated through impartation. The apostles appointed those who were possibly the first deacons. After they had been prayed for, and hands had been laid on them, signs and wonders followed. Rob told us, "Don't fight against the sovereignty of God, but don't fight against the initiative of faith."

A number of logistical and technical challenges have been conspiring against live-blogging here over the last day or so — hopefully those are now resolved and normal service can return. I am glad that Andrew Fountain has been posting — I hope you are enjoying his posts. I am thrilled to have now been able to make it here — last night at one stage it looked as though storms would prevent me from getting here this morning, but in the providence of God — here I am!

We have just had a great time of worship. It focused around the cross and that phrase in Isaiah 53: “He crushed him”! There was also a sense of commissioning from the risen Christ to go out into the world with a mission inspired by the cross.

P-J Smyth
Married to Ashleigh with three sons — Jack, Ben and Sam — P-J leads Godfirst Church in Johannesburg, which is now two and a half years old. P-J is involved with helping plant new churches around Johannesburg and Southern Africa. His book, The World Needs More Elders, is helping many churches accelerate their development of leaders.

See also Andrew Fountain's notes on this talk: Joshua Part 2 - A New Phase in the Kingdom.

P-J Smyth spoke first today. He asked us to turn to Joshua 13:1 — the exact halfway point of the book. He began by explaining that this verse acts as a junction between two phases of the book. The first phase is all about being together and fighting battles together — a “we” phase.

Phase 2 begins when Joshua was old and much ground had been taken. “You are very old and there is still much to do.” Now there is a change, it's no longer all together. It's time to distribute it. Divide up the land. Pass the ball. The shift is to have trust in others. The purpose is to both hold what was taken already and to push on to more. Each of us has our own inheritance within our joint inheritance. We also have our own individual responsibility within what God has given us all to do together.

The second-half phase is critical to any ministry. This applies to small groups, eldership teams, a church itself, church movements. If we maintain things too tightly, we can drift into "headquarter-ism," passivity, or frustration. But it is not about unhealthy individualism, either.

Tips from the book. In chapter 13, we see everybody got an allotment. In verse 14, we see that the Levites did not have an inheritance of land, but the offerings. God is their inheritance. They did have a clear role, but a different one to the others. It was not as visible. They did not have clear territories. It wasn't easy to pin down. There is a role in not having a role!

Caleb, an older man in chapter 14:7, was, in contrast, very specific. “Now, give me my mountain.” ME is okay as long as it is part of the WE. He had waited for forty years because of the corporate need. He loved the together, refusing to do it alone for all those years. There is a time for individual response and a time to move together. Are you still in pursuit of your mountain? Or are you tired of waiting?

Chapter 15:17ff is a younger lady — Caleb's daughter. She asks for a special favour. We can go to the Father direct. God has an inheritance for each of us. She wasn't just grateful for what she had, but asked for more. We need to be very cheeky in what we ask for! Simon Pettit used to pray, “Lord, you say we don't have because we don't ask. Well, here we are asking .....”

Judah couldn't do it. Perhaps they should have asked for help. Or maybe it's just one of those sovereign things that are associated with living in a fallen world. We will have some disappointments. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be discouraged. We need to be looking forward, longing for heaven. We need battle experience.

The tribe of Joseph in chapter 17:14ff responded by reminding Joshua how blessed they were. In verse 15, Joshua says “go for it.” They replied to that by saying we need more, and reminding him of the strength of the people. Suddenly they seem weak, and so Joshua encourages them further. The “me moment” is really scary, but we must press on through. Joseph seemed to think the others should clear the land for it. Joshua didn't offer to clear the land for them. Sometimes it's just us and God. Don't do too much for them, rather let them do it. Allow their gift to make room for them. But do prophecy and speak faith and life.

Each of us has a specific role. Don't look at others and say, “Why can't I be like that?”

Simeon and Judah in 19:1. Joshua gave from Judah to Simeon as they had more than they needed. All have an inheritance, but for some it seems like it's part of someone else's. Some of us are "number two" type leaders. It's still your inheritance in the Lord, but wrapped up in another's. We need to learn to be content with that. Be delighted with people like Titus.

In chapter 22, we see those who had served others and were told it is now time to return to what is yours. Civil war nearly arises. There is an investigation, and they said that they were concerned that in the future they would be told they were not part of it. We need to take initiative, and sometimes others might even think we are rebels. Leaders at every level need to rise up. Sometimes, like David, we will be called proud and conceited. It is not a question of being motivated by our own glory; rather it is the glory of God. We can't go much further without each of us being all we are meant to be in God. We need to take responsibility to hold land and take land. Let's rise to the challenge. We must each play our part submitted to the leadership and the whole vision. We are still together, but each having a part to play in fulfilling the promises God has given us and the vision God gives us.

I have now arrived in Brighton from the United States and will be reporting shortly on my impressions of the Together on a Mission conference. In the meantime, I'd like to share reports from other blogs as they appear.

The first is from andycottingham.com. Andy reports that there are 5,000 attending from 50 nations. He confirms Andrew Fountain's impression that yesterday's sessions were outstanding:

"I could discuss the excellent teaching from Stephen van Rhyn (I used to share an office with Stephen in Cape Town) or Rob Rufus from Hong Kong. Terry Virgo was magnificent teaching from Joshua 1. I don’t need to tell you about these guys as you can download the talks for FREE from the Newfrontiers webs site - give it a few days, most of the talks haven’t happened yet.

I would rather, then, talk about why this is such an enjoyable experience. Newfrontiers conferences are more like family gatherings. The title, "Together on a Mission," is no corporate catch-line. It really feels like doing something great with your friends.

Having been part of all this for decades now and having served in various nations, the thrill of being with so many genuine friends working hard for the vision of a glorious church and to see the ends of the earth reached is truly wonderful."

Read the complete report.

My friend, Andrew Fountain, is live-blogging from the Newfrontiers Together on a Mission leadership conference being held in Brighton. His reports will be uploaded to his site, in Christ: Andrew Fountain's blog. As he is able to gain Internet access, he will upload his impressions.

Andrew reports, "So far we have had sessions from Stephen van Rhyn, Rob Rufus, and Terry Virgo. All three of them were excellent . . ."

His first report (M03) is on Terry Virgo's session, taken from Joshua 1:1-9. Terry recounts how he was drawn to this passage as he prepared:

• He feels God is turning a new page for Newfrontiers.
  
• He uses many ways of communicating this to us, some of them quite unusual.
  
• God loves our new initiatives, but when HE does something new, it is altogether different.
  

It Requires Fresh Faith

• Joshua is going to have to start this new era by doing a miracle.
  
• Our God is fundamentally a supernatural God. If we are going to work with him we have to be part of this.
  
• God says “Behold I have given you Jericho” — but they have not taken the city yet!
  
• Our training programs often focus on providing information, but it is more important to provide a call to faith.
  

UPDATE
Andrew has now uploaded two more sessions from day 1 of the conference. Here is a brief introduction:

Report on S02 — Rob Rufus: The Spirit of Faith

• The Joy of the Lord is our strength. Why will the trees of the field clap their hands? The whole of creation is waiting for the sons of God to come into their joy, and that is when they clap their hands—they are waiting for us to “get it”!
  
• Joy always brings noise!
  
• But all of us have had faith failures. We measure ourselves by some unfair standard when we read the history books about the great men of faith.
  
• Religious traditions are blockages that hinder our faith.

Report on TT2-1: Terry Virgo — The Holy Spirit and your Church: Baptism in the Spirit

• Presence of the Spirit is of massive importance.
  
  • The manifestation of his presence, not just singing good songs.

Acts 1:8 — They would receive power when the Holy Spirit came

• When we are helping people to enter into the Baptism of the Spirit, it is very important that they be theological comfortable with it.
  
  • There is no point in praying for people who don’t believe in it!
    
  • Never just pray for them. Even if they are blessed at the time, they may experience a backlash of doubt afterwards.
    
  • The more you are assured from Scripture, the better.
  
  
• When Jesus said “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you” they had an O.T. background for understanding this.

As I write this, Together On A Mission has started. Perhaps like me, at the moment you can't be there and wish you could be. (I am looking forward to getting there soon though!). Perhaps you are there and enjoying it so much you are thinking that next year you would like to go to two Chrisitan conferences. If so, my friends at New Word Alive can help you out.

With a line-up of confirmed speakers next April — Terry Virgo, Don Carson and John Piper — I hope to be able to attend with my whole family. The conference is for all ages and will take place in Wales. Bookings open today, and I suspect you may need to move quickly to be sure of a place.

They have also launched today New Word Alive Blog which could be a fun way to keep track of goings on.

This year I have decided (as I explained yesterday) to share the live-blogging with a dear friend of mine. If I am something of a veteran of Newfrontiers conferences, he is going to his very first. He will be covering the first three sessions, and sharing his own impressions of the week as it goes by.

I thought I would introduce him to you by sharing a video clip. I obviously need to learn not to shoot these next to a busy road as the sound is a bit noisy sadly. It is meant to be a fun video and was actually shot by my son, Henry. In the background you may notice the cinema complex in which our church meets.

I am thrilled to be able to bring you live-blogging from this year's Together On A Mission Conference, which will run from the 10-13 July. This year the conference is fuller than it has ever been before, and will apparently be running an overflow venue.

One of the strengths of Tim Challies' live-blogging of Christian conferences is the perspective he brings to many of these conferences as a visitor. For me, TOAM is practically my second home. I have been going to Newfrontiers conferences since 1979, and have missed very few of the conferences held since then.

This year I introduce a new feature to my live-blogging coverage — a special guest blogger to share the load and provide the perspective of someone who is attending his very first Newfrontiers conference.

I will introduce you to my guest blogger tomorrow. In the providence of God, I will now not be able to attend the first day of the conference, so my friend will bring you coverage of the first three sessions, in addition to giving us some newcomer insights throughout the rest of the week.

If you are going to be at the conference, or will be doing some blogging yourself, why not leave a comment here, or link to this post to help us track who is writing about the conference. We will be providing link posts to round up some of the response to this conference around the blogosphere.

Over on Terry Virgo's Blog, he has written a post entitled apostles today. This complements some of the interesting things he had to say on this subject in the recent interview here on my blog. If you haven't read that interview yet, it can be found in the following posts:

• INTERVIEW — Terry Virgo: Leader of Newfrontiers
  
  
• INTERVIEW — Terry Virgo on The Early Days
  
  
• INTERVIEW — Terry Virgo on the Distinctives of Newfrontiers
  
  
• INTERVIEW — Terry Virgo on the Future
  

Here is an extract from Terry's blog post. He promises to write more about this in the days to come. In the meantime, you might want to have a look at an old post of mine "Apostles Are Meant For Today."

"As a Charismatic and a Bible-loving Christian, I believe that when Jesus ascended he gave gifts to his church. Exalted to the right hand of God, he received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and poured out not only the Pentecostal blessing described in Acts 2:33 but also gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4:11) to help equip his church and bring it to maturity.

These variously named gifts obviously differ in their function and relevance. It doesn’t say ‘he ascended and gave priests’ or ‘he ascended and gave clergymen.’ He gave diverse and distinct gifts. The evangelist differs from the prophet. The apostle differs from the pastor. Otherwise these titles are redundant—a waste of space.

If the inspired Scriptures distinguish between varieties of ministries and clearly imply that we need this diversity of gifting to bring about God’s ultimate intention, why do so many Bible-believing Christians and churches ignore the obvious implications?

For instance, the apostles of the New Testament had a distinct task from the evangelists or pastors, and it wasn’t, as so many of our evangelical brothers suggest, simply to write Scriptures! The apostle Barnabas (Acts 14:14) wrote no Scripture nor did most of the Twelve, while Luke, nowhere described as an apostle, wrote much of the New Testament.

What was the work of an apostle? Surely he was pre-eminently a church founder, giving clear identity to the new communities of believers that began to multiply around the Mediterranean as described in the book of Acts. Perhaps Paul’s most succinct description of himself as an apostle is found in 1 Corinthians 3:10 where he claimed to be ‘a wise master builder’ who had laid the foundation of the Corinthian church."

— Terry Virgo

On the first day of my interview with Terry Virgo we spoke about his ministry and his view of the wider evangelical scene. Yesterday, we began to speak about how newfrontiers began, and how Terry was led to a radical view that apostolic ministry was never intended to stop when the Bible was completed. Today we will begin by examining in more detail what that looks like in practice.

Terry, can you tell us a bit more about what are the distinctives of a group like Newfrontiers?

In addition to the classical evangelical doctrines rooted in the final authority of Scripture, I would emphasize that we have a strong belief in the importance of local church autonomy, but also the importance of being involved in world mission with other churches. We do believe in the ongoing role of apostles and all Ephesians 4 gifts. We do recognize that of course the original twelve Apostles were unique, and that the cannon of Scripture is complete. We do see the need however, today, for master builders in helping to establish foundations in local churches and for fathers in the faith.

Some people say now we have Epistles we don't need apostles. Although we firmly embrace the authority of the Scriptures, we believe that a local church is built on people and on relationships. We need not only pastors and teachers, but also properly functioning apostles, prophets and evangelists, all rooted in local churches and serving translocally.

This must sound very unusual to some of my readers - are there others out there who hold similar views?

We are seeing some who do function in a similar way though with some variation and different emphases. Each group seems to have a different flavour. We feel we are a bit unique in the emphasis on both the charismatic and yet also reformed theology which we hold dear. Often reformed teachers have tended to be cessationist and often Charismatics have tended to be Arminians - so we have been unusual.

Do you see that starting to change at the moment?

I don't see it changing on a wide scale. We are still a strange phenomenon in this way according to Joel Edwards, the leader of the UK Evangelical Alliance. We do have excellent fellowship with Sovereign Grace Ministries led by CJ Mahaney and certainly we have a great deal in common with them.

So is Reformed Doctrine in the newfrontiers statement of faith?

Anyone in newfrontiers would know how much we treasure these doctrines. I am not sure that someone would feel they couldn't join us if they were not reformed. We have never said you have to be reformed to belong. But it is widely known and understood outside our circles that we are reformed and charismatic. That's how people see us. I have often said that I don't know how people who don't fully believe in the sovereignty of God can sleep peacefully at night.

We don't in fact have a statement of faith, because I wouldn't want to be defining in a kind of way that can put people in a kind of prison. I have met many people who belong to movements which have clearly articulated statements of faith and practice but they don't personally embrace everything that the movement says. They say, 'I belong but I don't believe everything in it.'

We happily embrace the classic creeds and statements of faith without getting into tight definitions of detail, which can put people into a prison.

I can't see that the early Church as described in the Bible had a systematic theology kind of statement of their faith. Obviously Apostolic doctrine was fundamental. The Apostle Paul taught doctrine, and they devoted themselves to the Apostles doctrine. But the very concept of a statement of faith seems somehow foreign to the atmosphere of the Bible and the early church.

I am sure many of my readers would be very interested to know how you maintain doctrinal unity in this environment - I think it is fair to say that within Newfrontiers there is a remarkable degree of agreement about doctrine among the various churches.

We tend to work relationally. Obviously we have our training programmes for pastors and do work with a content of theology. We do indeed have a unity of values which we embrace. So I encourage people to read books like Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology and get a good grasp of doctrine and constantly recommend helpful books such as those reviewed on my blog.

But you will find for example when you come to Wayne's chapter on the church a great variety of possibilities are presented even within that theology. I think that one doesn't want to lead with too much detail in that kind of way. I just don't feel it's the atmosphere of the Bible.

So to take that further, Terry, what would be essential to believe to be a part of newfrontiers?

We would embrace the final authority of Scripture and that the Bible teaches, for instance, baptism of believers by immersion and we would say without that you could not be part of Newfrontiers. We would hold that as essential. Sometimes Anglican communities have asked if they could be part of Newfrontiers and I have said 'No' because we would hold that to be essential.

It would also be essential to believe that there are apostles today and that local churches are autonomous and work within an apostolic sphere. We are a charismatic group, so believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit continue. We believe in the centrality of worship, and would want to see the presence of God manifest in meetings of churches wanting to join.

Churches within Newfrontiers embrace male leadership, which is of course a controversial area in many churches today. We teach the Biblical message that Christians are under grace not law.
We would want to see an involvement in mission -- i.e. not seeing mission as something that only missionary societies do. By being wholehearted in church planting in ones own nation and overseas, a church should be caught up with world mission.

The Bible is full of language about fathers, sons, brothers, named people. Even when Paul writes to the Romans he mentions people who are dear friends, who are co-laborers. The atmosphere is like a family. The whole structure is relational. The essential Apostolic doctrine is followed by a lifestyle which is very transparent, full of tenderness, mercy, forgiveness and affection. Its about building churches that are flooded with the Holy Spirit's presence and genuine integrity of relationship. Into those churches the truth is taught and from them the truth is proclaimed to the world.

Our desire is to build godly communities. Though we are diligent for truth, we relate in and through churches rather than by doctrinal statements.

TO BE CONTINUED....

Tim Challies has served us all so well this year with his live-blogging of many of the major US reformed conferences. He has come to the end of a long spring season of live-blogging and posted reflections and comparisons of the various conferences. Here is a list of the conferences he has blogged the past few years, and it's impressive:

Desiring God Conference 2005
Desiring God Conference 2006
Ligonier Conference 2007
New Attitude 2007
Resolved 2007
Shepherd's Conference 2006
Shepherd's Conference 2007
The Basics Conference 2007
Together for the Gospel 2006
Twin Lakes Conference
WorshipGod06 Conference

I will share some quotes from Tim and coverage from others of the most recent of these conferences — New Attitude — in a moment, but before I do, I want to highlight two more conferences — one that occurred, but which Tim didn't attend, and the other that I am delighted to be attending in just a few weeks.

GOSPEL COALITION
What happened at this conference? The Gospel Coalition foundation document has been circulated online (I found my copy linked from Justin Taylor). Justin also posted some great live blogging notes he took on each of the sessions, but the audio has not yet been posted. The program looks awesome - Piper on The Triumph of the Gospel, Carson on Defining the Coalition, Sandy Wilson on