In 10th place is one of the first articles I ever wrote, although it was not published on the blog until more recently. It discusses the "Toronto Blessing."

In at 9th place is my series of posts on New Word Alive 2008.

This little video was used for the New Word Alive 2008 conference and does a great job of summarizing the glorious message of the Bible, which is that God forgives fallen people like you and me!

Begining tomorrow I will be live-blogging the Newfrontiers conference, Together On A Mission. (I will shorten this to TOAM.)

My posts will all be found on my TOAM08 label page.

You can download the mp3s of this week's talks by subscribing to the new Newfrontiers podcast, which will be an easy way for you to get access to the mp3s for free.

Newfrontiers is a family of reformed charismatic churches that began in England and now reaches into many nations. Last year we had 53 nations represented in Brighton; maybe this year it will be more. My live-blogging from TOAM07 and TOAM06 is also available.

The main visiting speaker this year is Mark Driscoll. I have a number of posts about him, including notes of sermons and an e-mail interview.

If you are interested in finding out more about Newfrontiers, the following interviews with leaders in Newfrontiers are helpful, some of which were carried out at New Word Alive. There is also a comprehensive Newfrontiers website.

TERRY VIRGO — Leader and founder of Newfrontiers

• Written report of an interview at Jubilee Church
  
  
• Video and transcript of an interview at New Word Alive 2008
  

STUART TOWNEND — Co-writer with Keith Getty of the hymn "In Christ Alone"

• Report and mp3 of an interview at New Word Alive 2008

JOHN LANFERMAN — Leader, Newfrontiers USA

• Transcript and mp3 of an interview at TOAM07

NATHAN FELLINGHAM — Songwriter and member of Phatfish

• Transcript and mp3 of an interview at New Word Alive 2008

This concludes my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. Today Terry provides insight into why he decided to work together with the New Word Alive conference. He also tells us how he chooses who to work with, and in particular, what led him to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference, which will begin on July 8th. (I will be live-blogging the conference.) The video of this segment of the interview can be viewed here.

The two previous segments of this interview with Terry and Wendy can be read at these pages:

• Terry and Wendy Virgo at New Word Alive
  
  
• Terry and Wendy Virgo on Itinerant Ministry

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Adrian
I can see from what you’re saying just how incredibly busy you must personally be overseeing all this. It just kind of brings me back to the fact that, yeah, you’re taking time out from your busy schedules to come here, so you must feel that this conference is pretty important and pretty crucial for, I guess, those outside of Newfrontiers. There aren’t that many Newfrontiers people here. Why would you come here? What’s so important about this specific conference this week?

Terry
I truly believe God wants to bring together a people who love Scripture, people who would flock to hear someone like Don Carson or John Piper, people who really regard Scripture highly.

Adrian
Very good. So, how do you determine, then, who you’re going to work with and who you’re not. Obviously you’re happy to work with these guys, and without going to names, I guess there must be others in UK that you’re not happy to work with. How do you determine that?

Terry
Most of my life has to be lived working out my commitment to Newfrontiers. That is where my loyalty lies. That’s where my duty lies. These are people who are expecting me to serve them, and I’m very happy to serve them. I’ve always felt that God said, “Now always keep a door open to the broader body of Christ. Don’t get shut in.” So for decades now, we’ve always had some involvement. So I get invitations and I have to choose here and there whether I will go. And this seemed a really brilliant place to come. I was honored to be invited, especially with a Carson and Piper here. So, yeah, I count it a huge privilege to be here. Also being a fairly substantial sizable conference, it means one can reach many people in a short time. After I spoke at the UCCF Forum, I had dozens, I think it would be true to say, letters from Christian Unions saying would I please come and speak at their CU. Well, I can’t do that. I can’t be driving all over England, speaking in CU meetings. But I can speak to a couple thousand students here in one week, so this is a really good economy of time, as well as an enjoyable thing to do.

Adrian
Okay. So I know, as an example, you’ve chosen to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference this year. And in the past you’ve chosen various people who some people, I think, were surprised about. How do you go about choosing them, and specifically Mark. What made you choose Mark for this year’s Brighton Conference?

Terry
I’ve been listening to Mark Driscoll over the last year or so, I guess. I’m deeply impressed with his biblical stance. I think he’s an unusually powerful preacher. He is also bitingly relevant to our generation and aware of the culture in which we live. I think he’s very unusual. He’s not only fighting for the truth in some sort of static way of just defining the doctrine. He reminds me of a kind of latter day Spurgeon. He’s very clear on doctrine. He’s very evangelistic, building a great church, it sounds, helping to plant churches in Acts 29—again like Spurgeon, who helped to get churches started all around London. You hear about people in Australia who were reading his sermons a week or so after he preached them in London as they printed them and sent them round the world. And now Driscoll’s been downloaded all over the world. He’s an unusual guy, very robust, like Spurgeon was, out of step somewhat, even with his group. But I love what I hear. I’ve yet to meet him, but I love what I hear.

Adrian
Great. Excellent. Well, we’ll look forward to another big conference in July. It seems like there’s conference after conference, doesn’t it? It’s great, I guess, to have people gathering round God’s Word and learning stuff. I mean, that’s what I find anyway. I like conferences because you keep going . . .

Terry
I think I love the local church the most, and I know that would be true of you.

Adrian
Yes!

Terry
That’s where we work out our lives. That’s where we grow. We can’t build our lives on conferences. But we have been associated with some very big ones over the years and know the huge impact, so I certainly don’t despise conferences, but I know that in the end we work out our lives in God in the local church.

Adrian
H-m-m-m. Very good, very good. Well, thanks very much, both of you, for joining us. It’s been a real delight, as always, and I guess we’ll leave it with that. Thank you.

Terry
Thank you, Adrian.

This is the second installment of my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo which began yesterday. That segment can be read here. The video version of this part of the interview can be seen here.


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Adrian
Wendy, I want to ask you something now because it’s been awhile since you’ve had a chance to get a word in edgewise—I suspect you might be used to that! (Laughter) How has it been for you with your husband—obviously in the younger years, away a lot—leaving you at home with the kids—five I think?

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
This is a very personal question, because my poor wife has the same problem.

Wendy
Oh, yes, she has five kids, too.

Adrian
And me traveling more for work, of course. But how did you cope being left alone, like she is right now, with five children and actually no car, I’m ashamed to admit.

Wendy
Oh, right. Well, when Terry was away, usually it was abroad, so I did have the use of the car, which was very helpful.

Adrian
Well, she usually does as well. This is, in fact, the first time since we went down to one car that we’ve been in this situation.

Wendy
Oh, right.

Adrian
Well, what about you? You were left at home; he was away . . .

Wendy
Well, our main focus is to build churches, which are really all one another in context, so we aren’t left alone, in fact. I was very much involved in church life and very beautifully loved and served by the church that I’ve been in now for twenty-five or six years. And, I didn’t actually feel that I was left alone. Obviously, I missed Terry a lot when he was away, but life was very busy and very full, and I never felt solitary, if you know what I mean.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

Wendy
And it has been great that as the children have grown up and now have their own homes (they’re all married now) that I can travel much more with Terry. I think it is a new season. Terry always used to travel with another guy or a group of guys because it was part of his training of them and part of introducing them to our values and helping them to see how an apostle works and how to work with an apostle, and developing a whole understanding of apostolic work. So, to take a group of guys with him was very helpful and instructive to all concerned. But now we have a number of men who would be in that position, like David Holden, Dave Devenish, and so on, who would also take groups of people with them, teams I would say. But as they have developed teamwork as well, they are now going off with their wives because their children are also grown up. So it’s becoming a bit of a pattern, I think.

Adrian
You’re very much involved, right in the thick of things, then?

Wendy
Probably not as much as say, some people like Dave Devenish, who goes into a place for several weeks or months at a time.

Adrian
And he’s taken his wife in those situations?

Wendy
Well, yes, that’s the thing. It’s quite a sacrifice, I think, at times. Tramping around places like Kazakhstan, places I can’t even pronounce. But, actually, Terry now will be going to Australia for three months at the end of this year, and that will be a new adventure for us.

Adrian
But you went to America for three years, didn’t you?

Wendy
Two years.

Adrian
Two years!

Wendy
Yes, yes. Actually that was a very positive time, too.

Adrian
Yes. So, I’m going to move back to Terry for a moment now because your wife just mentioned this funny “a” word—apostolic, apostle work. What about that? Because obviously there will be a lot of people who will, I guess, not really understand what that means for Newfrontiers.

Terry
Yes. I think it’s very important to say that we see different types of apostles, even in the Bible—Jesus the great apostle; the twelve, unique obviously, in the book of Revelation. But then you see in Ephesians 4—Jesus ascends on high and gives from his ascended position apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers—so there’s that ongoing ministry. He says this will be until the Church comes to fullness of stature, to a mature man. So, in a sense, this is an ongoing thing that God will continually give these varied ministries. So one isn’t looking for more Bible writers. I think very often we from the reformed tradition have thought—well, an apostle writes the Scripture and that’s his role. But, really, I don’t think that stands up to close inspection. Several of the twelve did not write Scripture. Several of the people who wrote Scripture were not apostles, so it’s not really the point. The point is more church planters. Paul says as a wise master builder, “I lay the foundation”—he traveled, he planted churches. We feel that’s really what we’re talking about—modern day church planters. People who pioneer new ground, establish eldership, establish churches, and a fathering, ongoing care for those churches, strongly built on relationship, so that we’re friends in the ministry, as Paul referred to people. Even at the end of Romans, in chapter 16, there are all these personal greetings to people. So we’re building very relationally. We’re building new churches, planting churches. And now various teams have been raised up doing apostolic work. [Ed: See post Apostles Are Meant For Today for more information.]

Adrian
Right. So I guess in summary what you’re talking about, for those people who have different vocabularies, is someone who can church plant and help establish churches. That’s obviously exciting. I mean, there are 500 churches in Newfrontiers now, aren’t there? Is that right?

Terry
It’s probably nearer 600 now.

Adrian
Wow! Last time I checked it was 400, so the number must be going up very quickly.

Terry
Yes, it is. I’ve been in touch today, just a moment ago, with Edward Buria in Kenya, where there are now some 130 churches, which he has helped start, and we served with him and are very much in touch with him at the moment with the political tensions there. And then we have churches in South Africa, and indeed, around the world. So when you add them all up around the world, it’s untold. It’s difficult to keep up because Edward plants so many churches in Kenya. But we’re also planting churches in West Africa, South Africa, and into Asia, and as Wendy was saying, Australia now, New Zealand. So we’re planting churches very widely.

Adrian
You didn’t mention anything about America, though.

Terry
Yes, we are. I’ve been to the USA, and in fact, we’ll be at the . . .we’ve been in March to the Leaders Conference, and then we’re going again in June to our midwest family camp [ONEBLAZE] held in Warrensburg [Missouri] just outside Kansas City, and then in August we’re going across to the West, where we have growing involvement in Oregon, and in Idaho and Montana—a number of churches that are reaching toward us. Quite a lot of these pastors are coming over. I understand thirty pastors are coming from the West to our Brighton Conference, Together on a Mission, in July, where there will be about 5,000 gathered there. But just from that part of America, we have thirty coming. So I would think there might be something in the region of sixty coming over from the US to our conference in the summer. [Ed: For more details see Newfrontiers events in the USA.]

Continued in part 3 . . .

Today I am going to share the written transcript of the first segment of a three-part interview with Terry Virgo and his wife, Wendy at the New Word Alive Conference in North Wales. The video of that segment can be seen here. I have also previously interviewed Terry here.

In this segment I ask them to tell us a little bit about what they do, what is Newfrontiers, and how Terry came to speak at the New Word Alive Conference this year.


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Adrian
Hi. I’m Adrian Warnock. I blog over at adrianwarnock.com and I’m part of the leadership team at Jubilee Church in London. I’m here at New Word Alive in North Wales, and am actually in Terry and Wendy Virgo’s chalet. Terry and Wendy very kindly agreed to join us for a short interview about the conference and whatever else we decide to talk about, I guess. So, thanks for joining us, Terry and Wendy.

Terry
Thanks, Adrian. Good to see you.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s great that you were able to find some time to chat with us, and to just be here at this conference. I just wonder, how have you found the conference so far?

Terry
Well, we’ve really enjoyed the opportunity for fellowship with a number of people we wouldn’t normally see. First of all, I’ve never met Don Carson, and it’s been magnificent to listen to him, and John Piper—inspiring again. It’s good to make new friends—people whose names I’ve known, like Wallace Benn. This is the first time I’ve got to meet him. It’s been an excellent time. Thank you.

Adrian
Good, thanks. And what about you, Wendy?

Wendy
Yes. I wasn’t quite sure what I was coming to, but I was relieved to find it is set in an absolutely beautiful location. And also I have so enjoyed especially Don Carson’s and John Piper’s messages. I’ve really been blown away by their passionate delivery of theology.

Adrian
Yeah, it’s been great, hasn’t it? So, Terry, there will be a few people watching this [and reading it] who perhaps won't know who you are. I mean, I find that amazing; you probably don’t find that amazing. But people do watch this in the States, and also some other places. I wonder if you could, in your own words really, talk a little bit about what it is you do with your life when you’re not in a chalet in Wales.

Terry
Yes, which is pretty rare! I’m based in Brighton on the south coast of England, and I’m an elder of a church there called Church of Christ the King. From there, I travel out with Newfrontiers, which is a group of churches that works in about 40 nations now. In the UK we have about 220 churches, and then globally we’re pressing on towards 600 churches. So I travel a lot. Later this month we’ll be in Russia at a pastors and wives conference, and then we’ll be in the States in May and June, and we’ll be in France with our pastors and wives there from the Newfrontiers churches. So we travel quite a lot.

Adrian
You say “we.” Is that the two of you, or just you, or sometimes a mixture of both?

Terry
We have five children who are all now married and have left home. And we often travel together now.

Adrian
Oh, that's the "we."

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
So what does Wendy get up to, then, when she’s not holding your bags? Well, I hope he carries your bags Wendy!

Wendy
Yes, traveling does take up a lot of our time, but when I’m at home I love to be involved in things like Alpha Courses, although increasingly I’m not able to do that. But I do write for various Bible notes such as TWR and Day By Day, the Bible Reading Fellowship, Scripture Union obviously for as well. I speak at ladies’ days around the country, and I’m also engaged in writing a book at the moment.

Adrian
That’s very interesting. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Or are you sworn to secrecy on that?

Wendy
Well, yes, perhaps it is a little bit premature, but it’s about the effect that women can have in a Church for good or bad.

Adrian
Very good. That sounds really interesting. I look forward to reading that, no doubt, sometime in the future. Now you’re going to have to finish it as you’ve said it online.

Wendy
I know.

Adrian
(Laughing) There you go! So, obviously both of you are incredibly busy, traveling an awful lot, all around the place, looking after all these churches. What made you decide to accept the invitation to come here? I know you’ve been involved with UCCF for quite awhile as well, haven’t you? Is it some kind of advisory board you’re on with them, or . . .

Terry
Yes. The invitation came from UCCF. I’ve made a very good friend in Richard Cunningham. He’s a fine guy. I like him. He asked me to be involved with UCCF, and then having agreed to that, I was then invited to speak at their Leaders Forum a year or two back, and had a very happy time working through Romans and then leading Bible studies. And I’ve enjoyed the fellowship. I’m so glad that they have embraced us. We come from a charismatic perspective. Our church life is charismatic. UCCF has not been famously charismatic, but they’re making a statement of openness, and I’ve been received very warmly, both in their Forum, which I’m due to speak at again next year (2009), and then here as well. And so it’s an interesting coming together of people who love Scripture, love doctrine, love the truth of God. And it’s great to have Stuart Townend here, and Phatfish, who come from my home church. We're very proud of them. Stuart’s written some magnificant songs, as have Phatfish, and I know they are welcomed around the world. It’s great to be together with them here as well. So we’ve enjoyed that.

Adrian
Yeah, and we’re singing the same songs as well, aren’t we? It’s interesting. Those divisions, at least in terms of songs, just don’t seem to be there anymore, really, you know?

Terry
I was fascinated when I was invited to speak at the Keswick Convention, probably three years ago now, and again I felt as the worship took place before I spoke, I think three-quarters of the songs we sang had been written by people in my home church. I felt remarkably . . .

Adrian
What is it about the sea water down there? You guys seem to keep producing singers, don’t you?

Terry
Yes, we have some great songwriters . . .

Adrian
I guess that church is a sort of resource church, really, isn’t it? I guess that would be one way of describing it in terms of—you have all kinds of different people going out and serving in various different way from there, haven’t you?

Terry
I think David Fellingham originally was with us from the beginning when we started our church. We started with 38 people back in about 1980, and David joined us quite early on with tremendous musical skills and devotion to God. He started writing songs that became very famous. And then others joined us like Stuart Townend, Paul Oakley, then his other son, Nathan Fellingham, came through writing songs. Kate Simmonds. More recently Simon Brading. In fact, we’re starting a worship school again this coming autumn, and we trust people will want to book in and come for the monthly program that will take place through this coming year.

Adrian
That’s great. So I mean, coming here, I guess we’re joining hands with people who perhaps years ago we'd never have imagined we'd be joining hands with. I mean, would that be a fair way of describing it?

Terry
Yes, it’s true. For me, when I was first converted from a completely non-Christian background, my sister had joined All Souls Langham Place, and I first responded to the gospel publically there. So I met John Stott on that day. So my roots go back to an evangelical context. And while I was at college, I listened to Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. So one feels so at home with these truths. Then I had an experience of the Holy Spirit, opening up the gifts of the Spirit in our church life. Which means we're certainly not cessationists. We believe in the presence and the power of God. We’ve never abandoned these great evangelical truths which we greatly love and have always preached during this time of enjoying the presence of the Spirit as well—seeing people being healed, and prophecies, and things of that order. So that we can find a very happy combination of those things.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that people are sort of almost feeling that this is a new thing—this combination of reformed and charismatic. I guess it’s newly prominent. It’s something that’s been around, I guess what you’re saying, all along. Is that right?

Terry
Well, I think I’ve always held that position going back many years. Joel Edwards, who has been the Evangelical Alliance leader for some years, said he felt that we at Newfrontiers in England were fairly unique for being famously charismatic and famously reformed theologically. He thought we were unusual. But we’re friends right across the board, and I’m very grateful for that.

Adrian
Good. Thanks.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Today I wrap up my interview with John Piper in this last segment. It is based on the video version of the interview, which can be viewed here. John talks about preachers he listens to and describes the circumtances which led him to the pastorate of Bethlehem Baptist Church. The three previous parts to the interview can be read at the following pages:

• John Piper on New Word Alive
  
  
• John Piper on Passionate Preaching
  
  
• John Piper on Prayer and Bible Study

Adrian
We have just been talking about studying the Word, and obviously books, but I guess for most preachers, they like to listen to other preachers as well. I guess you’re probably no exception to that. So who have you got on your iPOD that you’re actually listening to?

John
I do have an iPOD. It happens to sit in my speaker base in my bedroom as kind of an alarm clock. But my computer is in my study, and my treadmill is in my study. That’s the only time I ever listen to preaching—when I’m running. So three times a week, for thirty minutes or so, I’m listening to other people speak. So I download them from the Web, usually. Who are the last ones I listened to? I listened to [Don] Carson. I listened to R. C. Sproul. I listened to Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Somebody gave me the whole series of MLJ on Romans. I listen to C. J. Mahaney. I listen to John Sailhammer on the Old Testament. I listen to Carl Trueman on, what’s the topic? I can’t remember. A little while back. Basically, I’m looking for two things—one, contemporary relevant issues that I might want to dig into, or model preaching. So, whoever at that point, and they’re not always the same people, the model preachers and the ones who are talking about the things I feel like I need to get to know about.

Adrian
Okay. You’re obviously deeply committed to preaching and to pastoring, and you’ve been at Bethlehem an awful long time. I wonder, first of all, how did you make that decision to join Bethlehem, and was it a lifetime commitment at that moment, or was that something that evolved? How did it then develop into a long-term thing?

John
I was teaching Bible and Greek for six years at Bethel College from 1974 to 1980. I had a sabbatical and I was working on Romans 9—the book on justification of God—the odyssey basically, Romans 9. And while I was doing that, the Lord, I believe, just kept saying through the words of that chapter, “I will be proclaimed and not just analyzed.” And I couldn’t resist it after awhile. Finally, I began to ask those who knew me best, “What would you think if I left academia and took the pastorate as a preaching pastor?” And they all said, “Do it.” So, in December of 1979, I gave my resignation and started looking for a church. I said, “I’d like to spend ten years here.” Well, they said, “Ten years would be good.” And ten years went by like that. And now it’s twenty-eight. And I have no intention of going anywhere else until I’m done.

Adrian
Do you think that kind of longevity is important for a pastor?

John
It’s important, at least in volatile urban settings. In other words, where there’s a lot of change in the people, there needs to be less change in the pastoral ministry. Where the people are stable, say in a small town that has very little coming and going, the stability lies very much in the people. In an urban setting of growth, with a lot of people in and a lot of people out, there’s no stability in the people. And if it isn’t in the staff and elders, then it’s not going to be anywhere. So the degree to which there is movement among the people, it seems to me to be good. And I think it’s healthy for the pastor himself to press on in preaching in a way that doesn’t redo the same stuff over and over again. I mean, after the first five years I thought to myself, “I would not want to do this anywhere again.” I mean, those first five years are hard. You’re figuring out everything; you’re rebuilding everything. You’re trying to make some changes. And to start all that over again instead of building on it would have felt very discouraging to me.

Adrian
So for you the pull of the church was a stronger pull than the pull of Bible college or seminary?

John
Yes, oh yes. And the reason in that day was because, in the college, I felt like, year in and year out, I had the same age group (18-22). They were culturally basically the same. Their questions were, every year, the same. They always revolved around Calvinism and free will and sovereignty, and whatever. And in the church you’ve got cradle to the grave. You’ve got ethnic and cultural differences. You’ve got people all over the spiritual map on their questions. You’ve got dying and birth. You’ve got weddings and funerals. The reality of the totality of life—what that said to me was — “If this is real, if this Book is real, it will relate to all of that instead of this little slice of humanity that comes to college.” And I just wanted to see the Word of God take root in a people.

Adrian
That’s really interesting. Would you say, then, that part of your development as a pastor and as preacher is just being there in the long-term and seeing that kind of development?

John
Absolutely. I had probably preached fifteen times in my life when I came to this church. I was 34 years old and I was a teacher. I taught Sunday School. I didn’t preach around. Most of my colleagues preached on the weekend in addition to teaching. I said, “I’m not going to do that. I’m going to be with my family in church, sitting with my children at my side and my wife, listening to the Word of God every weekend, and I’ll teach a Sunday School class.” So I had done a few weddings, and I had done a few little sermons here and there. But I was an absolute green preacher when I came to Bethlehem. So all of my development as a preacher has been through these 28 years in the same pulpit.

Adrian
Okay. So, you’re a busy guy because you’re a preacher there, you preach regularly. You go to all these conferences. And I’ve noticed you almost always bring, if not a completely brand new message, at least a newly reworked version of it, perhaps slightly different . . . How do you manage to find all that time? Or is it just that you prioritize that and don’t watch too much TV?

John
I don’t watch any television. I don’t have a television.

Adrian
That’s what it is probably.

John
That certainly helps. And I have a wonderful wife who tolerates a very absent husband, even when I’m home. I ask her—I’m always taking her temperature as we do our dates on Mondays and go out. “How we doing, Noel? Do you want to make any changes?” She’s just so incredibly flexible that I married the right woman. And ever since we’ve been married, I’ve always worked, both in the day and in the evening. I’ve raised four sons, and now I’m working on one daughter. And they’re all married, and they have sons, and they’re following the Lord. So I feel some deep, deep gratification about that. But I always took from 5:30 to 7:00, and that was their time. I ate with them and then we had play time. We were kicking the ball around in the backyard or we were building towers and knocking ‘em down — this is your time. And I went to all their ballgames. A pastor has his own time. He can do whatever he wants. So 3:30 in the afternoon, while other guys are working, I’m banging my fists at the soccer match, or you’d call it football, to make my son, Benjamin, run faster . . .

Adrian
You played soccer?

John
I didn’t — I watched it.

Adrian
But, no, still, I mean . . .

John
Oh, I love it. We try, we try! (Laughing.)

Adrian
You have David Beckham now, of course.

John
Well, he did score a goal the other day. I think it was headlines. One goal out of this billion dollar deal. So . . . where were we?

Adrian
We were talking about football playing . . . you were just talking about all the time . . . .

John
Oh, the time to do things, yeah. The point was that even though I work in the evenings (at 7:00 I’m back in my study or with a book in my hand or at some meeting) and Noel is doing her handwork, or working on her projects, and I’m working away. But, really, the key is — I’ve been in the church long enough that they let me do what I want to do. And we’ve got such diversification staffing, that I’m the preacher guy. They want me to feed this flock on the weekend, and they want me to provide vision for the staff. That’s my title — Pastor of Preaching and Vision. I’m here in Wales, and I’ll be back to preach next Sunday, and most of them won’t even know I was gone.

Adrian
Yeah, sure. You write books. What would be the three books that you’ve written that would be your most important books, in your opinion? Three most important books you’ve written, or three significant . . .

John
I will be interested to watch from heaven to see what the answer to that question will prove to be, because I don’t think my answer really has any authority. I don’t know. Don Carson told me he thought Pleasures of God was the most important thing I’ve done, so I think I would put that in the top three. I’m going to put Desiring God there just because it’s the seminal book from which everything else flowed. And after those two, God’s Passion for His Glory maybe. That’s my [Jonathan] Edwards—Edwards is half of that and I’m half of that. And because Edwards is so important, and that essay, The End for Which God Created the World, is so absolutely foundational to everything I do and what I think, that may be the other one.

Adrian
Great. Well look, thanks very much for joining us, John. It’s just been wonderful to have a few moments here just to pick your brains . . .

John
Yeah. I wish we had more time. Thank you very much!

Adrian
God bless.

Yesterday, in the second part of my interview with John Piper, he talked about passionate preaching. Today, John talks about prayer and Bible study, and in particular, his personal "rhythm" for this important discipline. The video of this part of the interview can be seen here.


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Adrian
So, what you’ve described — I suspect there may be many preachers out there saying, “Okay, I get what you’re saying, but how do I get to that place?” You mentioned prayer. I know prayer is important to you. You often talk about prayer in your books. Could you talk a little bit about what your own prayer life looks like? How you get, if you like, connected to God in that way you’re describing?

John
I’ll try without disobeying the Lord’s injunction in the Sermon on the Mount to go into your closet . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
I surely am not a model to hold up for prayer because I have models and I fall short of them. But, my life is a combination of private prayer, family prayer, corporate prayer at church—it’s a rhythm of those things. I try to be with the Lord every morning for an hour or so. The way it works for me is mingling together Word and prayer. I don’t read the Bible for twenty minutes and pray for twenty minutes, or forty and forty, whatever. It’s in and out and in and out. I learned that basically from George Mueller, who said he made the big mistake in his early Christian life of trying to pray for an extended period of time, and his mind inevitably went everywhere except toward the Lord, so he began by whispering up a one minute prayer for help, and then he took the Word and turned everything he’d read into prayer. He said I laid sixty things before the Lord this morning, and I laid them through the Word. And that’s pretty much the way I go about it.

When it comes to praying for things, besides what’s in the text, I pray in concentric circles. The most needy person I know is me. Therefore I pray about me first, because if I can’t be fixed, I won’t fix anybody. I won’t bless my wife or children or the Church. So I pray about this soul and my passion for God here, and then I move out to my wife and my children. I pray for them about whatever was in the text. Then I move out to my elders and my staff, and I name all the staff every day and our elders. And then I move out to the church, and move out to the city, and the nations. That’s the way I pray. And that can fill up a lot of time as God brings different things. I use helps. I have lists. I have lists of the names because I can’t even remember the names of 34 elders sometimes, and I have to say those. And then I use things like Operation World to pray for the nations. I keep it on my computer. I keep it in the book beside my old prayer bench at home.

By the way, I have a place of prayer. In my study there’s a little corner with a built wall, like this—it’s got a bench, it’s got books, it’s got a Bible. So I can kneel, it’s got a little rug. In 1975, so it’s now thirty-two years ago, I realized when I finished graduate school and owned my first home that this home should have a prayer place in it because otherwise, I think if you don’t have a place that’s designated that’s relatively secure, you tend to kind of sit on the couch, cross your legs, put some coffee beside you, and go to sleep, and call it prayer time. You don’t tend to do that if you have a place that’s just set aside for prayer.

Then there’s the family—my wife and I and my daughter—pray and have devotions in the morning. And then we do it in the evening. And then my wife and I pray before we go to bed at night, and read a little devotional called “Daily Life.” So that’s the rhythm—morning, evening, wife.

And then there are eight prayer meetings at our church, and I go to four of them plus the staff prayer meeting. They are thirty minute prayer meetings. That’s all they all. We don’t talk at all. We just sit down—bang! We start praying, and bang! Thirty minutes later we stop and go our separate ways. It’s very . . . and that way they last. I’ve been to one of these prayer meetings for probably over twenty years. The Friday morning 6:30 prayer meeting has been going on for twenty years and I hardly ever miss it, except when I’m on vacation, and there’s absolutely zero conversation, zero nonsense. It’s just you’re there; it’s 6:30, let us pray! It’s 7:00—bang! We’re done! Everybody disappears. And it’s really precious! It’s powerful!

So, those are my rhythms, personal, family, corporate, and lots of others sprinkled in. Paul said, “Pray without ceasing,” so I’m always crying for help. So, “Right now, Lord, help me in this interview!”

Adrian
(Laughing) Yeah! You and me both! So, you pray. Obviously you study the Word. And I suspect most of what you do is fairly standard on that. But do you have any particular hints about how to study the Bible that would help people maybe?

John
H-m-m-m. I’m not a good example there either. My life has kind of been taken out of my control in the last years. I feel like I’m governed by what other people want from me, pretty much, than what I want to do sometimes.

A combination of three things, I would think, is what a pastor would want. One is general reading. And there—what can you say? There’s a billion things to read. You let your own heart and good recommenders, good bloggers, tell you what’s good. And then you don’t waste your time reading what’s bad. Somebody else better read it first. Don’t read it first. And probably you should read something that’s 200 years old, 300 years old, because the new stuff is here today and gone tomorrow by and large. So READING.

Secondly, some more or less systematic way of growing in your knowledge of Scripture. The Bible says, “Grow in the knowledge of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,” so some regular reading and rigorous effort to broaden your understanding of the scope of Scripture.

The third is preparation for what you do. That’s where most of my effort is right now. I languish in the other two and I flourish here. I don’t begrudge myself that too much because what I have found (and this might be encouraging to any of the younger guys pondering what they’re going to do with their lives)—when I left academia—six years of teaching Bible college to do pastoral ministry, I thought, “I’m giving up all my summers (teachers have all their summers to study and write), I’m giving up a small amount of teaching and a large amount of writing opportunities—I’m giving that up for a life of pressure, and administration, and crises, and crunch, and just normal pastoral labors, so will I languish in my ability to see Scripture?”

Continued in part 4 . . .

Yesterday we began sharing the transcript of my interview with John Piper at New Word Alive. Today we continue with John Piper talking about passionate preaching. The video of today's segment can be seen here.

Adrian
People do talk about you, John, as having a real sort of passion about you. It’s almost like a zeal, I guess. In fact, particularly when you’re preaching, I certainly experience that, having actually only heard you for the first time in the flesh last night, and so many people afterwards were saying the same thing. I was just blown away by the passion, and also by a sense of the presence of God that you brought when you were preaching. I guess that’s probably the best way of describing it. Is that something that you’re aware of in some way for yourself? Is that something you can explain a bit as to why you feel that other people experience that? Is it something you feel yourself when you’re preaching as well? How did that come about? Because I know, for example, that Lig Duncan said that when he heard you preach at Together for the Gospel, he felt, “Boy, I’ve never preached before. I’ve never done it.” So what is it about you? Is there something special about you? Do you have some kind of secret you can share with the rest of us?

John
I don’t usually feel that way when I’m done preaching, okay? I talked to Don Carson one time, and I regard Don as a very effective communicator and a brilliant person. He mentioned to me that he regularly walks away from his events feeling that he’s blown it, which made me feel better, because I don’t think you can ever quite know what God’s doing. At the times that I have felt bleakest about the way I did what I was supposed to do, others have testified to being helped. And the times I felt liberated, free, engaged — Did anything happen in them rather than just in me? So, I’m very suspicious about the way I feel about my preaching. I doubt myself regularly that my assessment of what just happened is accurate. Which helps me and hurts me. It means I never feel very excited about what I’ve just done, and it means I don’t fall out the bottom because I say, “Well, God can do what he wants to do. You know, Balaam’s ass can accomplish what he wants, so he might use that, even though I felt terrible about it. So I’m a lousy judge when it comes to saying, “Was there a presence of God, or was there an anointing, or was there an effect?”

I just know that what I want is the gift of self-forgetfulness in what I would call a full engagement, a full passion, a full zeal with what’s there in the text, and the reality of God in and through the text. I want to see him, and know him, be engaged by him, be thrilled by him, say it with whatever effectiveness I can, and let the chips fall where they will. And that, as far as my own subjective awareness goes, that rises and falls. One Sunday I feel thrilled. I feel met. I feel carried. I feel helped. And others I don’t. But that doesn’t correlate necessarily with what God is doing in the people out there. So, to me, an effective, experienced sermon would be when I forget myself. I’m not thinking, “Oh, I’m doing well here,” or “I’m doing badly here,” or “That was an effective comment,” — anything like that ruins it for me. The gift is when you’re not outside yourself watching yourself. You’re so here—you’re so here that you’re not at all conscious—there’s no two of you, there’s just one of you, and God and the people, and a transaction is happening that’s a miracle. Because you can’t choose to forget yourself. The act of choosing to forget yourself is self-awareness. So it’s a gift. It’s a phenomenal precious gift in the moment. You pray for it ahead of time, and it may come for twenty minutes and then you lose it for ten, and you’re thinking about your hands, and you’re thinking about your notes, and you’re thinking about the faces out there, and it’s all discombobulated, and then it may be taken away in the moment, and you’re free to . . . you go, and you wake up ten minutes later and — What was THAT? You know? That was free!! So that’s what I’m after.

I think there are ways to cultivate what I’m talking about. It basically is cultivating God-centeredness. It’s cultivating prayer. It’s cultivating a serious engagement with the Word. It’s cultivating asking certain kinds of God-centered, Christ-exalting questions. There’s a focus and a preoccupation. And then my root Christian hedonism, I mean, my root philosophy of life — whether you are satisfied in God really does make a difference as to whether you can glorify God! That’s a huge thing! It’s a theoretical construct that I think is in the Bible, but it has a practical effect because I really believe that if you’re not passionate about God, you won’t glorify him as much. If you’re more passionate about football than God, you glorify football. If you’re more passionate about food or cooking or sex or money or work or the stock market than you are about God, then that’s what gets glorified. God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. That construct of reality has an effect on how you pray about your life and how you live you life.

Continued in part 3 . . .

Yesterday was Friday and therefore it was the day that we usually turn to Piper. I have not forgotten that tradition, nor, incidentally, have I forgotten Lloyd-Jones Monday—it's just that there has been a lot of other material to get out there, and I haven't wanted to do more than a post a day at the moment.

I actually have another project which I'm currently working on, and which I plan on telling you about in a few weeks or so. Believe it or not, thanks to spending some time planning and writing ahead, and also to the efforts of my transcriptionist and editor, Annette, this past few weeks have actually been quite light blogging work for me. Please pray for me that God would grant me unusual grace, inspiration, and self-discipline at this time.

Anyway, today I thought we would share the transcript of the first video segment from my New Word Alive interview with John Piper. The video can be seen at Piper on New Word Alive and Spring Harvest.


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Adrian
Hi! My name is Adrian Warnock and I’m here with John Piper. We’re here at New Word Alive. I can’t say the name of the town [Pwllheli], but it’s in North Wales in the UK, about six hours away from London. John has very kindly agreed to be interviewed here. But he’s also specifically asked that we would pray together before we start. So, John, let’s just share a word of prayer, shall we?

John
Father, we lean on you for words that would come to our mind that might be helpful or useful to other folks. So, for the sake of your name and for the good of others, we ask that you would cause us not to go down any rabbit trails that would be unhelpful, to waste our time, or spin our wheels. And we ask that you would guard us from error or pride or anything that would be dishonoring to Jesus or harmful to the Church. And so draw us into a conversation that will be edifying, I pray, and an honor to the Lord Jesus. We ask this is his name. Amen.

Adrian
Amen. Well, thanks for joining us, John.

John
My pleasure.

Adrian
Really, the whole purpose of these interviews is to try and get a bit of a glimpse of the man behind the preacher, as it were. So just to start with, I’d love to know how you came to the decision to be here. There seems to be a lot of you Americans coming over here—you’re here, Don Carson is here in the UK today at this conference as well, and later in the year Mark Driscoll’s going to be at a conference in Brighton [as well as some meetings in London]. Why do you guys keep coming?

John
There’s a narrow and a broader answer to that. Let’s go from the broader to the narrow. The broader answer would be—when I was here doing my sabbatical at Tyndale House in Cambridge, I got to know the folks who did the book, Pierced for Our Transgressions.

Adrian
Oh, yes!

John
They asked me to do the forward for it. And that got us into a conversation about the larger evangelical situation in Britain, and for whatever reason, I found myself very very akin to their cause in upholding the penal substitution of Christ—his work on the cross in our place as precious beyond words. I don’t know why, but they thought that my support would be helpful. Why that is—I’m just an ordinary American pastor and nobody over here knows me, I thought—so what’s the deal with doing the forward for this book or whatever? And I discovered that evidently my voice has (and this is ironic to say it here) I thought it had, up to this point, a kind of unifying effect because I’m contaminated with charismatic influence . . .

Adrian
(Laughing) I like that . . . !!

John
. . . and I’m reformed to the core—like I say I’m a seven-point Calvinist—that sort of thing. And so that’s an unusual combination. So I’ve been to the Leister Conference with the Banner of Truth books, I’ve been to the Brighton Conference with what, Newfrontiers?

Adrian
Yes, that’s right.

John
And I’ve been to FIEC, and I’ve been here now, and that seems to be broad. So evidently my role is to function as a kind of voice that can attract a broad array of evangelicals. [Ed: Piper has also spoken for the Proclamation Trust and other UCCF events.]

So that’s the bigger reason. I like serving that purpose, so if I can serve that purpose, I’ll come over. I didn’t know that, but I’m told that, and I’m pleased to help draw exegetically serious, Bible, gospel people, whether charismatic or not, together. I think that’s a wonderful calling. So that’s one.

The narrow one is that this event was born out of a tension at Spring Harvest over the whole issue of the nature of the atonement, and I think the place that this conference, New Word Alive, came down on—what Christ achieved for us and how he achieved it in bearing God’s wrath, absorbing it fully, removing it, propitiating it. That historic, traditional vision of what Christ did is exactly right and precious. So, when I was asked, “Would you come help us get this started?”—that question wouldn’t have made any sense to me without the broader piece, but given what I was being told about my voice, I thought, “Well, okay. If you think I can help, I’ll be happy to help, because I believe in the cause.” So those two things coming together—the broader function of my voice kind of spanning certain tensions in Britain, and this issue in particular—made this a very attractive event to me.

Adrian
Okay. Well, it’s been great to have you. What’s your impression of the event as a speaker, and also as a participant?

John
Well, I’ve only spoken once, and then I’ve attended one thing ahead of time, too. The responsiveness of the folks has been positive. Now I have to measure my words because British folks (laughter) are less responsive than what I’m used to!!

Adrian
Are you talking about the stiff upper lip here?

John
I don’t know what I’m . . . I don’t know what it is, but I mean, I’m looking around in here during that kind of worship and I’m expecting a great deal more engagement than I’m getting, so I just kind of adjust my expectations to the kind of human being I’m dealing with (Adrian laughing), and if I’m at a more, you know, lively place, I’ll expect that. Here I’m pleased to settle in with my expectations kind of in the middle, and it’s been good!

Adrian
I think it’s partly a cultural thing.

John
Oh, it’s absolutely cultural, there’s no doubt that it’s cultural. That’s what it is!

Adrian
Yeah, because I guess some people are more or less expressive in worship based on who they are.

John
Exactly. It’s partly genetic, partly cultural, partly religious and convictional.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

John
So those three factors together make you who you are. We’ll all that way.

Continued in part 2 . . .

This is the second part of a two-part interview with Don Carson, which began yesterday. That segment can be read here. I previously shared the video of this interview here.

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Adrian
So obviously from your own story, and also in your current role, you must have seen lots of people come through that path. Do you have any thoughts about how the Church can best develop its future leaders, or how, indeed, those people who might be beginning to feel similar stirrings to you, all those years ago—how do we turn somebody who is keen on God’s Word and might show some potential into a future preacher or future leader?

Don
It’s hard to answer that in just a few sentences. 2 Timothy 2:2 insists that senior people ought to be looking for junior people who will prove faithful in passing on the gospel yet one more round. And that means inevitably that they should not only challenge them as to what they are going to do with their lives, but provide them some venue for service, some test of gifts, some beginning ministry, supervise them, mentor them, challenge them. Not just say to them, “Go and give a talk here,” but work on the talk with them, listen to it, offer critique, make sure they are growing, give them things to read, put them in situations where they’re outside their comfort zone and have to bear witness to this sort of thing, see if they grow and are flourishing spiritually and mentally. And then with time, discerning people will begin to see if there really is potential there, and the individual himself may begin to see this as part of God’s gifting and calling. I do think we ought to be more proactive in tapping people, while still recognizing that finally the thing must be confirmed by God himself. Yet, nevertheless, if 2 Timothy 2 means what it says it means, then it seems to me we ought to be a little more proactive than we have sometimes been.

Adrian
Yeah, I guess that’s right. It’s interesting that so far you haven’t mentioned seminary at all in that. Do you see that as more “down the line” then? That it’s not just a question of pick someone, send them off to Bible college, and you’ve got an instant Church leader then?

Don
Well, a seminary can’t guarantee that. A seminary can contribute very powerfully some of the components that are there. As I said earlier, there are not many local churches that can give you a really good grounding in Church history, Greek and Hebrew, good exegesis, disciplined reading of the text, and so on. Not many. And the accumulation of a good number of former pastors and missionaries and so [forth] on one campus—you can pick their brains in all of these areas. That’s got to be really important. But some of it is learned on the street. In the Anglican system, that works out in curacies and so on, and ideally it works out in the independent system with assistant pastorates and so on. But even before they go, ideally they should have some exposure, some testing. And that might work through being a staff worker at UCCF or it might be in the context of a local church. But by and large, I’m not too keen on someone working, let’s say, in computer science flat out, and suddenly saying, “I’m called of God. Let’s go.” It’s usually a little more complicated than that.

Adrian
Right.

Don
And ideally, there needs to be at least some testing and growth within the context of a disciplined mentored ministry first.

Adrian
Yes, okay. Is there anything that you think that guys like you can do to help those pastors who, for whatever reason, haven’t been educated at a Bible college, and now they’re right in the midst of preaching every week. How do you see that? I know it’s difficult sometimes to say, “All right church, I’m off!”

Don
Yeah. There’s no automatic formula. There are some people who are so gifted by God that they can be self-taught and do an excellent job. Who is going to throw stones at a Martyn Lloyd-Jones? But it would also be wrong to think that Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the typical person. There are a vast majority of ordinary ministers who are going to do a lot better if they can have some time for disciplined study. But, on the other hand, if the force of circumstances makes that sort of thing impossible for fiscal or other reasons, then there are a lot of things that can be done. For a start, the English language, above all languages on the earth, is blessed by resources—books, magazines, both in print and now increasingly on the Net—the resources are fantastic actually. So what you need ultimately is some mentor or guide to steer you into the right sort of list, the right sort of priorities—You read this, then you read that, and then you read something else, and so on—and that, of course, was what Wesley did with his young men. He had a list of fifty books that he expected all of his trainee preachers to read and so on.

Adrian
Do you have a list like that yourself?

Don
I don’t have a personal list, but I’ve often created them for individuals in particular circumstances.

Adrian
You prefer to . . .

Don
To custom make it in some ways. But, increasingly, there are often courses online, too, and maybe weekend or night school courses that are available in a place that’s within driving distance. There are a lot of different patterns that are available today in one fashion or another.

Adrian
Sure.

Don
So, for those who are willing to be disciplined enough to take the time and really work at things, setting aside a day a week, or a day and a half a week, for something other than preparation for the next talk and visitation and all of that. Yeah, it’s possible to get quite a lot of upgrading in the context of your own study.

Adrian
Right, excellent. And I guess, even a conference like this is helpful to somebody to come and be exposed to teachers a bit more than they perhaps would in their local church.

Don
It’s part of it. There is a danger at these conferences. You hear a man with a gift of a John Piper, and you will inevitably come away blessed, and you’ve met with God, and that’s a great thing. But on the other hand, most of us are not going to be John Pipers. So it’s also possible to come away feeling a wee bit, in some sense, discouraged or threatened, or “I can never do that!” So it’s important to get the right thing from these conferences. At conferences, in the big marquees, the ordinary pastor does not normally have a voice. And I think that it is important to learn faithfulness in ministry, fully recognizing that most of us will be ordinary pastors . . .

Adrian
Very good!

Don
. . . and learn to be faithful in that frame of reference. Which, of course, is why I wrote the book on my dad. It wasn’t that I was trying to write a big critical biography. It’s not that. Get the right priorities, the foundations, in terms of faithfulness, what ministry means, what discouragement looks like, what suffering looks like, and so on, and the joy of the Lord within that matrix, or else you will have a romantic view of the ministry that is almost certainly going to lead to discouragement.

Adrian
I guess also there’s a lot of people here as well who will never be ministers.

Don
Yes, of course.

Adrian
What would you say to them?

Don
Well, in an event like this, it’s just like a different question in terms of training. At a place like this, the people are going to get somewhat different things out of it. The huge number of students are being exposed to teaching, Bible training, their own student tracks, and the encouragement of meeting with a whole lot of other students, and so on. Some come from small CUs, and just to have a thousand students together is itself a huge blessing. And some come from really small churches likewise, where to have about three or four thousand people singing at the same time and hearing the Word of God—all of that is itself a great encouragement. So there’s not only the content, there’s the sense that “This is the Church of the living God.” And God is calling out his people. They’re not to be discouraged. These are the foundations. This is right. And rejoicing in God in all of his context. It can be an enormous encouragement and anchor, and even vision for what could be for the future. For all of those things, too, we need to be thankful to God.

Adrian
Yes. So, for anyone who is watching this on the Net thinking, “Should I come to New Word Alive next year?” — what would you say to them?

Don
Well, I’m not a very good salesman. What I would say is that if you want to have a serious week of serious Bible teaching that is, nevertheless, full of corporate worship and meeting of new friends and an opportunity to pull aside and read and think, as well as listen and study and learn, I’m sure this would be a week well spent.

Adrian
Thanks very much for your time, Don. I know you’ve got to prepare for the next talk. Thank you for joining us.

Don
My privilege. Blessings on you.

I had the great privilege of talking to Don Carson in April at the New Word Alive Conference, when this interview was recorded. I have already shared the video of the interview here.

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Adrian
Hi! I’m Adrian Warnock. I blog at http://adrianwarnock.com/. and I’m also privileged to serve as part of the leadership team of Jubilee Church in London. I’m here at New Word Alive, together with Don Carson, who has kindly agreed to answer a few of my questions. Thank you for joining us, Don.

Don
My privilege.

Adrian
Excellent. So, Don, you’re obviously a busy man. You do all kinds of things—write books and lecture, and all the various things you do—and yet you, and John Piper, and later this year, Mark Driscoll, all sorts of American guys keep coming over here. Why do you think that is? Why do you come?

Don
The Church of Christ is world-wide at the end of the day, and partly because of Trinity’s reach, we serve many countries, and partly because of my own roots over here (I lived here for nine years, my wife is English), and partly because there is a camaraderie in the ministry itself. Not only do we come here, but there are a number of Brits who come to where we are, and then we might even meet up in Kuala Lumpur. That’s the way the Church is, increasingly. There’s a global reach, and we lean on each other, gain support from each other, and try to bring glory to Christ in different ways in different parts of the world.

Adrian
Fantastic. Well, we’re certainly glad you’re here. I have very much enjoyed listening to your talks. What’s your impression of the conference as a whole?

Don
The buzz I’m hearing (but I’m the outsider) is that people are really grateful for the Bible teaching, not only in the big sessions, but also in a lot of the seminars and so on. After John’s material last night, for example, on suffering, there was one woman in a wheelchair who said that she had found this one of the most encouraging things she had ever heard in her life, and the whole conference is worth it just for her, isn’t it?

Adrian
Yes!

Don
And then when you realize there are five thousand people who are receiving blessings from God from his Word in one way or another, it’s something for which to be incalculably grateful.

Adrian
Yes. I guess there’s no real substitute for gathering people to hear God’s Word, is there really?

Don
That’s right. That’s right.

Adrian
Whatever context it’s in. And it’s interesting because I’ve just been talking to John, who obviously gave up theological life to become a pastor. And I guess you’ve devoted your life to training pastors. Is that a fair way of describing it?

Don
Yes. I started off in pastoral ministry. He started off with theological . . .

Adrian
So you did it the other way around?

Don
I went the other way around. And there are dark moments when I wish I hadn’t. But you can’t second guess either yourself or God all the time. It’s not right. But about fifteen years ago I almost left Trinity to go to a church. It was a church near a major university and I wanted to do the sort of thing that John is doing. I had two or three senior men in the ministry, both already at that time in their early 70’s, descend on me and tell me in very authoritarian terms that I just must not do it because they were afraid that if I did I wouldn’t reserve enough time to do some of the writing I was doing.

Now whether that’s right or not, I don’t know. You offer yourself up to God and try to do what’s right. But I would say that the front line is the local church. And there is a sense in which seminary is a back-up slot. The front line is the local church, and the first impetus towards ministry and towards stamping people for what ministry ought to be should be within in the context of the local church. And then a good seminary, a good theological college, helps to provide the kind of training and further exposure to more technical knowledge, a grasp of the languages, and this sort of thing. Virtually no local church can provide that, and yet it’s really important for those who teach in such places, nevertheless, to be pastors first, because if they think of themselves of teachers and scholars first, then they tend to produce teachers and scholars. So there’s a stamping, not simply from the course material, but from your own values, what you dream about, what you think about. So, at our seminary, we always want to hire a certain percentage of faculty who wish they were in the pastoral ministry, or else quite frankly, we don’t want them. Now, they have to be academically competent and all the rest, but we don’t want people who just want to be in a seminary. We want people who in many ways would prefer to be in the local church. So, that’s as close as I can come to explaining where I’m at.

Adrian
Oh, that’s good. So, of all the many books that you’ve written, Don—this is again a question I asked John about his books—but of all the books that you’ve written, what would you say would be the most important two or three books—the ones that perhaps people should start with reading, let’s say?

Don
I have no idea how to answer that because people find books are important for different reasons. So for some people working through the front end of post-modernism, the 1996 book or whatever date it was, The Gagging of God, they found very helpful at the time. On the other hand, widely read by pastors was my John commentary, for example. I just don’t know how to answer that sort of question.

Adrian
I guess it’s what fits that person.

Don
That’s right. And as you say—What should they read first? Well, an awful lot depends on who they are. If they’re a lay person, [they] might start off with a book like Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount or something like that. I just don’t have a formulated answer for that. For pastors today who are in small churches and sometimes feel discouraged and wonder if their life is worth it, what I’d now recommend is the one that came out just a month or two ago called Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor. It’s short—only 160 pages— and it’s really on my dad. He was a quintessential, ordinary pastor in many ways. He never preached in another country. He never wrote a book. He was never a conference speaker or the like. Most of the congregations most of his life were 30 people. But he exemplified faithfulness in some pretty grueling circumstances. He nursed my mother through the Alzheimer’s years. He was a church planter cross-culturally moving from the English to the French side of Canada, and had a passion for faithfulness in all kinds of small ways. Yeah, it’s not so much a critical history as a collection of our memories of him and a lot of his diary entries and so on as he struggled with these kinds of things and tried to be faithful in small corners.

Adrian
I’m guessing that he was probably one of the main influences on you growing up and into ministry, was he?

Don
Not directly. When I left home I had no intention of going into the ministry. In some ways I was closer to my mother. Nevertheless, his pattern certainly has stamped me. But I started off in chemistry and mathematics. I had no intention of going into the ministry. That came about by other things. But, undoubtedly, in all kinds of subliminal ways I scarcely recognized, his pattern has affected me. But it wasn’t a kind of direct thing—“Oh, I want to be like Dad!” sort of thing. It wasn’t that at all.

Adrian
So who did influence you most to make that kind of jump from chemistry to theology?

Don
That wasn’t a single step either. I worked in a research lab in Ottawa for the federal government in air pollution. I discovered that the people in this lab—I had a good budget, I had a good project, I enjoyed what I was doing—but most of the people in the lab were either resenting it and waiting for retirement or, alternatively, chemistry was their god. And I didn’t fit in either camp. I was enjoying it, but at the same time another chap and I were trying to start a Sunday School in a new church in the upper valley, and that became more and more important to me as time went on. I remember a chorus that I learned as a boy playing out in my mind again and again:

By and by, when I look on his face,
Beautiful face, thorn-shadowed face;
By and by, when I look on his face,
I will wish I had given him more.

And in that autumn, I heard a sermon from a man—I think I’ve only ever heard him preach two or three times—a sermon on Ezekiel 22, where God says, “I sought for man to stand in the gap before me for my people, but I found none.” And God used that in a powerful way in my life so that I wanted to cry with my whole being, “Here am I, send me!” But none of that was planned.

Another earlier step was the minister of the church I was [attending] in Montreal said that he wanted me to be his assistant one summer. And I said he had confused me with a theological student—I was chemistry. I never did go and do it, but it was the first time I started thinking about it because some minister had tapped me on the shoulder and said I ought to be thinking about it. So there were many different things that God used providentially to woo me away from chemistry and science and towards vocational ministry.

Continued in part 2 . . .

This was shown at the New Word Alive conference earlier this year. I have to say that it is one of my favorite passages of Scripture in the whole Bible. This Sunday, why not just take in these glorious words in a fresh format.

In yesterday's segment Nathan and I discussed the importance of theology in worship songs. Today we move on to talk a little about the event we were both attending and his thoughts on being a reformed charismatic.

Adrian
We’re here at this New Word Alive event, and obviously have heard all sorts of teaching from some of these big names like John Piper, Don Carson, and others. I don’t know how much of it you’ve been able to get into with everything else you’re doing. Have you been in many of the sessions?

Nathan
Yeah. I’ve gone to all of Don Carson’s morning Bible readings so far, which I think have just been astounding—really, really good. Don’t ask me anything about it, but . . .

Adrian
No, no. I suppose what I was thinking—what I was going to ask you actually—when you come here from the context in Brighton, a lot of people think of charismatics as being kind of airheads. Are you coming here and thinking this is just totally alien to what we’re used to, or are you thinking, “Yeah, We’re learning stuff, but this is very consistent with our heart and where we’re at?” Where we’re from?"

Nathan
Yeah, I think theologically it feels very much in sync with where we’re at. I think in terms of people’s expressions of worship, I think it does feel a lot more conservative to what we’re used to. So, yeah, I think I would love for, in some ways, to be able to bring some fresh expression to the worship in a place like this. And Stuart’s the ideal guy for leading worship. Because of the songs that he writes, people warm to him very quickly, but he can also push things out a little bit and take people further on. That’s probably the biggest thing really—just how people express their worship. Obviously, people can express it in different ways, but there are some pretty strong words in the Psalms about exhorting us to praise and knowing a little bit about how the Hebrew people would have done that, with a lot of body movements and a lot of excitement. Obviously cultures are different, but I think there’s something in praising in a very kind of vocal and “full of energy” way that just seems right to me.

Adrian
Yeah, I guess so as well. I mean, the thing I’m feeling is that the people here are really deeply in love with Jesus, but maybe they express it in a slightly different way. Were you picking that up as well in the worship? I really felt like, in your gig for example, as the gig went on you could see that people were warming up and getting into it, and actually in their hearts, they were really really enjoying it.

Nathan
Yeah, I think so. We certainly feel very at home here. The feel of the site proved great.

Adrian
There’s no one swinging from the rafters yet, is there?

Nathan
No. That’s right, that’s right.

Adrian
Was it not “swinging from the chandeliers?”

Nathan
Yeah, yeah. No, there’s none of that! (Laughter) But, yeah, we don't feel at odds with anyone here, so it’s great.

Adrian
It’s actually really exciting to see in this event a marrying of the charismatics like us—nutters like you and me—and people who are not really from that background at all. To see everybody here together, respecting each other in that way, is quite cool.

Nathan
Yes, it’s wonderful. Yeah, very good, very good.

Adrian
Just a little bit about the whole charismatic thing. You seem to be quite unusual, to some people anyway. I mean, I’ve grown up with it and it’s quite normal for me, I guess, but this notion that we want to marry reformed theology with a sort of vibrant experience of the Holy Spirit. Do you want to talk more about what that means to you as an individual and to the band?

Nathan
Sure. Again, I think that Terry Virgo’s distinctive really is that he is reformed theology, but very charismatic. I know that’s what people always say about him. And in a sense, it’s Terry’s church, and groups of churches that I’ve grown up with. So, in some ways you only begin to learn what you are by hearing other people say it. “Oh, right. That’s what we are! I thought we were just getting on with it.”

Adrian
It’s a bit like if you were color blind, isn’t it, and you’ve never seen color. And then one day something happens and you can see color. And you’d say, “Oh, right! So that’s what it is!” Or the other way around. If you lost color and people started saying, “Hang on a minute . . . ”

Nathan
Yeah, for sure. It’s just what we have known, really. But we’ve seen a lot of diverse expressions of Christianity in our travels over our time, and been very comfortable with people who are even more nutterish than we are. We enjoy that from time-to-time and then . . .

Adrian
You go both ways. Sometimes they’re more nutty and sometimes they’re less nutty.

Nathan
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The whole spectrum of nuttiness where we fit. But, yeah, I think certainly seeing Terry’s passion for the Spirit, and for the gifts of the Spirit, and for charismatic worship, coupled with not a kind of flakiness in our theology, and not a kind of looseness with that, I think, is wonderful. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else.

Adrian
I think there’s one of your sort of more “bandy” songs, if you like, rather than worshipy songs, but I’m not sure where that distinction always lies. I’m not a musician at all. I’m just not quite sure. I used to play the guitar a little bit, but I never got . . . . It’s funny. I got to the stage where I knew all the chords, but I never could quite learn how to do the rhythm properly. I mean, I could do it in theory, but . . . And I was like—something’s got to give. So, in fact, it was really when I got married. My wife was like, “Adrian, this is very loud and not very helpful.” So I stopped practicing. But anyway, I just have no rhythm, you see. (Laughter)

What was I going on about? I’m losing it. It’s been too long. Oh, yes—the songs! One particular song, and we must finish soon. But there’s one particular song from your more bandy ones that really, I think, expresses that whole kind of Holy Spirit thing—it is that song called “Holy Spirit.”

Nathan
Yeah, yeah, yeah . . .

Adrian
I have to say, the first time I heard that I was actually listening to the CD that it’s on. I don’t remember what the name of the CD is—what’s the album it’s on?

Nathan
It’s Guaranteed.

Adrian
From Guaranteed, yes. And I was just in the car, and was actually just driving, listening to music in the background, and not really thinking about it, and that song came on. I had to stop the car. I was just in tears, overwhelmed and it’s like there was a hunger within me for more of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit’s power—that whole thing. I just wonder if you could share a bit more about that song. Where did it come from? What does it mean to you?

Nathan
Yeah. It was actually Mike, our keyboard player, who wrote the song. I think I had a little bit to do with some of the melody, but it was really his. The majority of the words were his. Yeah, I think it’s a great song because it has that refrain at the end—“Fill me up each day, Fill me each hour, Fill me with your love, Fill me with your power”—so something kind of simple and “Come Holy Spirity,” but the whole rest of the song is really talking about who the Holy Spirit is, what he does. It just goes into more depth. It’s kind of something I think might challenge us because we don’t sing that much about the Holy Spirit, and we kind of sometimes don’t really know that much about him. So he just had a real heart to write a song which was a bit more comprehensive. Actually, Matt Redman, listened to it once (I was in the car with him) and he said, “I think that’s the most comprehensive song on the Holy Spirit I’ve ever heard.” And I think it is quite unique in that way. You're not allowed to say 'quite unique' are you, so it IS unique. (Laughter) We did it at the concert here the other night. I was really keen to do it because I had some friends here who are kind of less charismatic. A friend of mine said to me, “After hearing that, it was like, it was not that any things have changed necessarily, but it’s like I can’t argue with any of the stuff that’s being said there. It’s just truth.” And then, again, the response at the end for us—“fill us up.” We need more of the Holy Spirit. So, yeah, it’s great. I think it’s a very important song, actually.

Continued in part 5 . . .

Yesterday in my interview with Nathan we spoke about writing songs for worship. Today we will move on to talk about the theological thinking behind the songs.

Adrian
It’s actually quite interesting, because already from talking to you, it’s like your songs are so obviously full of theology—I mean, that’s coming across just in talking to you—and I’ve always felt like that in listening to them. They’re also full of passion and kind of “real life” situations, I guess. And that combination, together with modern music, is actually quite rare. Where is that coming from? How do you have the sort of richness to be able to do that and still also be kind of “cool”?

Actually, by the way, I must just say [this]—I met some students last night (and actually you can listen on the blog), and just at the end of our chat (we were talking about the Piper talk last night), right at the end I said, “Oh, and by the way, I was in the Phatfish gig!” And they said, “Hey, that makes you really hip and young and with it,” and I was thinking “Great! That’s really cool!” So you’re still hip . . .

Nathan
Yeah, that does surprise me. I had no idea we were still hip. I thought we were old and “has been.”

Adrian
Clearly you’re not.

Nathan
That’s good, that’s good!

Adrian
Anyway, I forgot what I wanted to ask you now. Do you remember?

Nathan
It was kind of to do with how the richness of theology in songs and . . .

Adrian
Not with being hip . . .

Nathan
Yeah, and how we can still be hip . . . yeah!

Adrian
. . . and still be theological . . .

Nathan
I have no idea. No, I think we’ve just always been encouraged by the sort of church that we’re in, with guys like Terry Virgo, and my dad, and John Hosier—we’ve always been encouraged to put good theology into songs. It’s where my roots are; the sort of songs my dad used to write – such as putting Ephesians 1 to music. It’s just what I’ve grown up with. Just the thought of writing—I mean, occasionally songs don’t have to be as weighty, it’s not like they all have to be really weighty, but to not write any songs like that—it never even has come into my consciousness that that should be done. It’s just always been drummed into us that it’s important what we’re saying. Just the realization that people do go away singing songs, and therefore if we can put good truth into songs, then it’s only going to help the body of Christ, really.

As far as that marriage with being hip, I guess the thing is—just to clarify that I don’t particularly think I’m hip—I do have a desire to write good music as well. I don’t think great songs come about by just finding great theology and trying to put it to “any old tune will do.” Even if it’s a singable tune, I think I’m a believer in the marriage of truth and beauty. I think when you marry great truth with something that is beautiful in terms of music, that’s really when stuff can come alive and people can latch onto it, and the music actually serves as an extra thing to help get the truth home—that’s really my desire. So, in terms of the music, I am dedicated to learning my craft as a musician as well, so in terms of listening to bands, listening to good music that’s out there—that’s the quest for me. It’s also a quest to get my theology as great as possible, as well, to obviously say it all in the context of trying to love God more. It’s all part of what my life is, so when the two things can marry together and people can be, in some way, blessed by it, then, you know, I’m just thrilled as anything.

Adrian
Is there any specific way that you try and make sure that your theology is right in the songs. Is there anyone that you ask to help you who will check things out, or have you got degrees in theology, or what?

Nathan
(Laughter) No. Yes. I’d certainly, well yes . . .

Adrian
Yes to the degrees?

Nathan
Yeah, I have about three degrees! (Laughter) No, I have no degrees at all! Certainly I often run stuff off my dad. When I was first writing songs, I was in his house, so I would just run stuff by him and he would comment on stuff. I’ve sent, I’ve kind of run things past all sorts of people at different times, oddly enough. I think John Hosier, I’ve put stuff past before, and Joel Virgo. I even sent something to you once, didn’t I?

Adrian
You didn’t have to say that! (Laughter)

Nathan
No, I know, . . . I think over time you get a bit more confident in terms of what you’re saying, obviously, but I still feel like I’m drinking milk really when it comes to this—I feel like I’m just at the beginnings of a journey. I mean, sometimes I read through some of my songs and think, “Wow! God was really gracious to me in terms of being able to pen something almost beyond where my understanding is in some songs. I’m catching up still—you know, we’re all on that journey. If I’m unsure about something, then I definitely try to find somebody and just kick it past them. It’s an interesting thing for me. It’s not something that I take lightly.

Adrian
I guess what I’m hearing from that is that you’re very much a part of a theological family almost. Is that a good way of putting it? Within the church and all the people you know?

Nathan
Absolutely! Absolutely our church holds to teaching the Bible systemically and having good theology, holding it in very high esteem. So, yeah, it’s just part of the very fabric of who we are. So, yeah, for sure.

Continued in part 4 . . .

In yesterday's segment of my interview with Nathan, we ended by speaking about how many worship leaders have emerged from his home church, Church of Christ the King, popularly known simply as CCK. Today I ask him about writing songs for worship.

Adrian
The Brighton Newfrontiers church is an amazing resource, if you think about all of you as a group, not just Phatfish, but all the other guys you just mentioned. I mean, you guys write a lot of songs that are used in a lot of places, don’t you?

Nathan
Yeah . . . yes, for sure. Of course, Stuart Townend is probably the key guy in those terms. His songs have obviously gone around the world and are sung as much as anybody’s at the moment. Songs like In Christ Alone and The Power of the Cross seem to be right up there among the most-sung songs in the Christian world at the moment. I’ve had the privilege of being able to write a few that people have taken hold of as well, and Paul Oakley has written some really big songs which have gone ‘round the world. It’s a great privilege. We’re just grateful that we get the chance to do it, really.

Adrian
I know some people don’t pay that much attention to who writes songs, so could you just say (I know you’re probably too embarrassed) which songs that you’ve written are the ones that are most widely known? The one that comes to my mind (I think it’s one of yours) is There Is A Day That All Creation Is Waiting For. I just love that song—it goes on, doesn’t it . . . “A day of freedom and liberation for the world . . .when hurt and pain will cease,” and it talks about our light and momentary troubles achieving a glory for us. I just kept thinking of that song this week; I mean, you did sing it in your gig, but when John Piper was speaking about suffering—that’s the one that I immediately thought of. I must confess, I’m not one of these people who always pays much attention—so what other songs have you written that people sing more?

Nathan
There is a Day is probably the second biggest song I’ve ever written in terms of how far and wide it’s gone. Holy Holy is the song that has actually gone the furthest. The chorus is “Lift up his name with the sound of singing . . .”

It’s funny to me, really. I wrote it when I was about, I think, 17, and I wrote it really quickly. And ever since then I’ve been trying to better my skills, hone my skills, you know, be diligent in my skills, become a better song writer, and the one that I wrote really quickly when I was very young is the one that’s gone further and people know the best. So you just put that down to God’s sovereignty, really. Others I’ve written are one called Awake Awake O Zion, which has got around a bit, and Come Let Us Worship is one. And there’s probably about a hundred songs called that . . .

Adrian
Tell us a few more words of that one . . .

Nathan
The chorus is “You are God, and you’re worthy to be praised, and you’re good . . .” I mean, Stoneleigh was—that was kind of the era where songs probably got most profile. I usually write about one a year for Stoneleigh. To You King Jesus is another one. Jesus Christ the Holy One is another one. So, yeah, I’ve written quite a few. Some of them get better notice than others, but, yeah . . .

Adrian
What about the one, O God of Love, I Come To You. Is that yours?

Nathan
Yes, that is actually. It was predominantly my wife, Lou’s, but we wrote that together. But that one really was her kind of main theme, and I was just around to help shape it and form it a little bit. So, yeah, again, that one has gone out quite a long way.

Adrian
I heard of a bit of an interesting back story on that one, but I may not have heard it right, so what is the back story on that, if you don’t mind me asking.

Nathan
I’d quite like to hear yours, actually! (Laughter) I think it kind of came out at a time there was a young girl in our church who was diagnosed with cancer, and she did actually end up dying. It was obviously quite an intense season in our church—just going through that sort of thing as a body of people is a pretty intense thing. Everybody who was close to her talked about her love for God, and her peace, and how her face shone. It was incredibly moving, even though I didn’t really know her—you can’t help but be moved by it. I know Lou was moved by it. I think a lot of the words of that song came out of that—not just the frailty of our bodies, but the fact that God is always before us and behind us, and he knows our frame, and he knows how we’re made. So there was all that stuff. But the chorus actually just came out when Lou and I were leaders of a small group (or whatever they were called then—cell groups probably, I don’t know—like a youth one). We were just worshipping round one day, and Lou just started singing the chorus—which is quite a simple chorus—but started singing that out, and that song was kind of born there and then, really.

Adrian
That’s the one — How Good It Is To Be Loved by God — that one?

Nathan
Yeah, yeah.

Adrian
Oh, no — How Good It Is To Be Loved by You . . .

Nathan
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Adrian
See, I almost know the words . . .

Nathan
Yeah! I’m impressed! That’s good! (Laughter)

Adrian
Are there any other of those songs where there’s a back story that’s worth telling about? I mean, not just that it sprung into your head in the shower, but anything else that’s worth saying?

Nathan
Well, I think There is a Day is probably one I’d go back to. I was reading a book called the Discipline of Grace by Jerry Bridges. It’s not really a book about the second coming and our future in heaven, or anything like that, but there was obviously something that he put in there, a page that I read—that chorus literally just descended on me like—instantly. I can’t put it in any other way. It was like I got so excited by reading what I was reading (I can’t even remember what it was!) but I guess it was something related. But the chorus, “We will meet him in the air and we will be like him, and we will see him as he is . . .” and then that “Oh yeah!”—it was just genuinely what was in my heart. I remember I was in my bedroom. I slammed my fist down on the bed. That was genuinely what it was—it was like, “Oh YEAH!!” It so gripped me—so just from there I kind of started looking up some simple passages and, you know, I did the whole kind of following Scripture links to this one, and I’d follow it through my Bible and just came up with various lines, and really felt God’s grace in putting it together. A lot of people said to me, “It’s a great theological song.” You have some guys who really do know their stuff theologically, and it’s like, “Yeah, it’s just God’s grace!” I mean, in a sense, it’s just the Bible put to music. But just the flow of it seemed to land really well, and it seems to catch people. It actually gets used at funerals quite a lot as well. I have one story where loads of people got saved—I mean, not 100 percent to do with that song obviously—but that song playing a part in it, playing a part in somebody’s life who recently became a Christian and then actually died suddenly. The song was sung at his funeral, and the family and friends heard the gospel preached, and loads of people were saved. It’s just mind-blowing when you hear things like that and think a song that I’ve written—well, to just be able to play a small part in that is just awesome. It’s wonderful.

Continued in part 3 . . .

The following is an interview with Nathan Fellingham of the band Phatfish. More information about the band is available on Phatfish's website. The lead singer of the band, Lou Fellingham, also sings solo and has just released a new album, Promised Land.

I recorded this interview at New Word Alive and have already shared the audio, which is available here.

Adrian
This is Adrian Warnock here. I’m actually standing outside of the main marquee, right near the edge of the site, looking out over the beach. And the tide is out. I can see sand, and I can see sea, and I can see hills, and I can see clouds—and it’s sweet! But I’m also here with Nathan Fellingham. Nathan is from Phatfish,and there's all sorts of things he’s involved with—so I’m going to ask him a few questions about what they’re up to and about the event here. So, first of all, who are Phatfish?

Nathan
Well, Phatfish is a band that’s been together for about fourteen or fifteen years now. The backbone of that is myself and my brother, Luke, my wife, Louise, and Mike Sandeman. The other guy, Alan Rose, who was with us for about five years and actually left a few years ago, is now pastoring a church up in York, which is great for him. So we have, in recent years, been using various different musicians, depending on what the event is. We’re a band who is dedicated to serving God through our music—through writing songs that help express our worship and help encourage others to express their worship to God; sometimes songs which are teaching songs—songs that as you listen, hopefully, you can be edified and encouraged; essentially through putting a lot of Scripture to music; and just songs that talk about life, our own experiences, and how God is such integral part of our life. The way we outwork that really is through songs and through playing music.

Adrian
Sounds really cool. So whereabouts do you do this playing music? Do you do gigs or what?

Nathan
Yeah—a whole mixture of stuff. We do a lot of them. We don’t do as many Phatfish gigs as we did in years past. There were certainly seasons where we were out as much as we could doing a lot of youth clubs, youth events, town-wide events, Christian festivals, Christian conferences. But at the moment we’re probably most often at Christian conferences. Often we get asked to play for people like Stuart Townend or Kate Simmonds and others, kind of playing as their support band, I suppose, helping them to lead the worship. And on the back of that, often we get to do a few of our own songs and sometimes the occasional gig as well, which is under the Phatfish name. So, yeah, this year we’re actually playing here at New Word Alive at the moment, and we were at the Kingsway Children’s Ministry conference earlier on in the year. We’re going to be at the Brighton Leaders Conference, as well as New Day, and a couple of other Kingsway conferences at the end of the year. We’re going to be up at Keswick in July as well again, leading with Stuart Townend. So, yeah—a lot of conferences this year.

Adrian
I often jokingly say you should be called the band with many names because you’ve been the Stoneleigh Worship Band, haven’t you? The New Word Alive Worship Band, the Brighton Worship Band, Newfrontiers Worship Band, Church of Christ the King Worship Band. And, as you say, accompanying all these other guys. But I think I’m right in saying that a whole bunch of these people you’ve just mentioned are all in the same church, aren’t they? Is that right?

Nathan
Certainly Stuart Townend and another guy, Paul Oakley, are in our church, who a lot of people would know. Kate Simmonds, who we’ve played with, used to be at our church. She actually moved out with her husband and son, Matthew, to Sydney, Australia, to be with the Pete Brooks, who used to be the senior pastor at our church in Brighton. That’s probably about eighteen months ago now that they moved out. So, on top of that Simon Brading is obviously an up and coming very gifted worship leader who a lot of people would know, is also at our church. Yes, Brighton does seem to collect musicians and worship leaders, definitely. It seems to a bit of a hub for creativity for people like that.

Adrian
I think Matt Redman was there for a little while as well, wasn’t he?

Nathan
He had a brief sojourn there. Yeah, he was there for a while. We still have a great relationship with him. He’s just up the road, in a Church of England church.

Adrian
What is it with Brighton? Is it something in the sea water?

Nathan
I think so, yeah. (Laughter) I don’t know. I mean, my Dad, Dave Fellingham, has been one of the pastors, one of the elders, at the church there, really since it started. I think his kind of influence and his heart for worship and heart for creativity, I’m sure, has a part to play in that.

Certainly he was very encouraging to Stuart in the early days, and I’m sure, to Paul Oakley and to Kate Simmonds, and certainly to us as well. He definitely had a lot of the vision that started Phatfish. He really had a desire to have a band who could operate in the realm of leading worship, but also were comfortable in a pub, playing songs to a secular audience. I say that with quote marks, but you cant see that! [laughter] So, yeah, he really encouraged us to do that. I think certainly his influence would be big.

On top of that, I guess I do feel that God has something for us in Brighton. I feel like there is almost a bit of a mantle on us as a church to be people who are leading the way, I suppose, within our network of churches for sure, and I hope for God to do more things in the future based out of that. I look at what we have and think, “Yeah, there is a reason.” I do believe God is in it, and I do believe that he’s got a work to do with us with this collective of worship guys and creative guys in Brighton.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Following the roaring success of the 2008 New Word Alive conference, it has been announced that the event will take place next year over two weeks and be in the same venue in gorgeous North Wales as it was this year. This is a change from what was announced during the event itself, when it was believed it would need to move.

To get an idea of what happened this year, there are, of course, many posts here on my blog, including videos of interviews and summaries of the talks.

You will probably need to move quickly to book since, although there will be double the number of places available in 2009, the on-site accommodation sold out very fast and I predict it will do so again. Over the two weeks, God-willing, around 8,000 people will gather to worship and hear God's Word.

The bookings will open shortly, but if you are not already on their database, go over there now and ask them to send you a brochure. or, have a look round and watch the promo video

UPDATE
The written transcript of the third part of the interview is now available. It can be read here.

Yesterday I continued my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. Wendy provided some insights into her life as Terry's wife and her travels with him. Terry defined what he means by "modern day apostles."

In this segment, Terry speaks more about why he decided to work together with the New Word Alive conference. He states, "I truly believe God wants to bring together people who love Scripture and those who love life in the Holy Spirit." We also talked about how he chooses who to work with, and in particular what led him to invite Mark Driscoll to this year's Brighton conference.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview is now available to read here.

Yesterday I began an interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. We talked a little about what they do and how Terry came to speak at New Word Alive.

Wendy begins this section of our interview talking about sharing in Terry's travels, and what it was like to be left behind with five children. Terry also explains briefly what he means by modern day apostles.



Continued in part 3 . . .

UPDATE
The written transcript of this interview is now available. It can be read here.

Today I share the first of a three-part interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo, recorded at New Word Alive. Terry and Wendy kindly invited me into their chalet as I was a bit cold from speaking with Don Carson outside.

In this segment we talked about what exactly they both do, what is Newfrontiers, and a bit about the relationships that led to Terry speaking at New Word Alive. I have previously interviewed Terry here.



Continued in part 2 . . .

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview with John Piper is now available. It can be read here.

This is the fourth and final segment of my interview with John Piper. You can also watch these preceding segments:

• John Piper on New Word Alive and Spring Harvest
  
  
• John Piper on Passionate Preaching
  
  
• John Piper on Prayer and Bible Study

I began this section by asking John which preachers he listens to on his iPOD. He mentioned a number of names, and if you have the e-mail address for any of them, why not drop them a line and tell them you heard Piper has been listening to them! I doubt many things will bring more encouragement to them than knowing that John Piper has found their work helpful.

When I asked about why he chose to leave the seminary setting and become a pastor, he explained that after a period of time studying the Bible, he felt God was saying to him, “I will be proclaimed and not just analyzed.”

He also spoke about the need for long-term stability in a church’s leadership team. He spoke about how his wife supports his ministry. “She's just so incredibly flexible that I married the right woman.” He spoke about what the Piper family home looks like. We even spoke about soccer.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview with John Piper is now available. It can be read here.

So far John has addressed the UK church scene and preaching. In this section of our video interview I asked him about his prayer life, which he described as prayer mingled with the Word rather than separate sections of time for prayer alone and the Word alone. He talked about his Bible study, and how that discipline, along with so many other things in his life, sometimes feels as if it is driven by the expectations placed on him. His focus is currently on preparing for what he is going to do.

Unfortunately there is a small section at the end where we somehow lost the audio, but one of the technical whizzes over at UCCF managed to figure out what Piper was saying. His words at that point have been superimposed on the video picture. This interview continues tomorrow with the final segment.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this segment of my interview with John Piper is now available. You can read it here.

Yesterday I began speaking with John Piper about New Word Alive and why he comes to the UK. In this segment, I began by putting before John the notion that he has an unusual degree of passion and anointing when preaching. I even quoted Lig Duncan, who said that he wondered if he had ever really preached after hearing Piper's talk at the first Together for the Gospel conference. I asked him whether he was conscious of this, and if he had any explanation for it.

Piper began his answer by honestly stating, “I don’t usually feel that way when I am done preaching.” He spoke about how the sermons he is most unhappy with are sometimes the ones people feel most helped by. He spoke about the need for a ”self-forgetfulness in a full engagement with what is there in the text . . . and the reality of God in the text.”

He did say that there are ways to cultivate this. “It is cultivating God-centeredness, prayer, a serious engagement with the Word, and asking certain kinds of God-centered, Christ-exalting questions. There's a focus and a preoccupation. And then my root Christian hedonism, my root philosophy—whether you are satisfied in God really makes a difference about whether you can glorify God . . . If you are not passionate about God you won’t glorify him as much. If you are more passionate about football than God, you will glorify football.”

This whole segment is tantalizing, as is much of Piper's unusual ministry. It made me want to spend about three hours with Piper probing him further about all this. Sadly we did not have three hours, but we did have longer, and I continued my conversation in a video I will share tomorrow.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this video is now available and can be accessed here.

At the recent New Word Alive conference I was able to record a four-part interview with John Piper. John rarely gives interviews of any form, so it was a real privilege, and one that I hope you will enjoy.

Dr. Piper asked that we begin with prayer. His humble request of God that, for the sake of others, he would help us in our conversation was no mere lifeless routine. Here is a man who oozes the presence of God even when you are with him in such conversational moments. I found it challenging and stimulating to spend a little bit of time with him at the conference.

I began by asking him what brought him to this conference in Wales. He spoke of his surprise at realizing he seemed to have a broad appeal in the UK. He is welcomed to speak at a wide range of conferences from different backgrounds. He said that he was both “contaminated by the charismatic” and “a seven-point Calvinist.”

He described how he felt drawn to help in the process of realignment that is going on in UK evangelicalism at the moment. He spoke about the previous differences with Spring Harvest, which together with his discussions with the authors of Pierced For Our Transgressions, had made him especially keen to help the organizers of New Word Alive.

John said he was keen to do what he could to draw exegetically serious Bible, gospel people together—whether charismatic or not.

This interview will be continued tomorrow.

UPDATE
The written transcript of this interview is now available and can be read here.

In the second part of my interview with Don Carson we spoke about how to prepare people to serve as leaders and preachers in the Church. We spoke about the place of seminary, and about those who, like Martyn Lloyd-Jones, serve without spending time there. We also spoke about conferences, and the importance of recognizing that most of us are just going to be ordinary Christians. You can view part 1 here.

My video interview with John Piper will begin on Monday.

UPDATE
The written text of this interview is now available. You can access it here.

The following video was filmed at New Word Alive in April of this year, when I had the opportunity to speak with Don Carson. We spoke about his reasons for coming to the UK, about how he chose to leave the field of chemistry to become a pastor and then left pastoral ministry to train ministers in a seminary, the crucial importance of the local church, and his relationship with his father.

My interview will conclude tomorrow with part 2.




Jonathan Leeman has kindly transcribed some of the key points about seminaries and churches:

• "The front line is the local church, and there's a sense in which the seminary is a back up slot."
  
  
• "The first impetus toward ministry and toward stamping people for what ministry ought to be ought to be within the context of the local church."
  
  
• "A good seminary, a good theological college, helps to provide the kind of training, and further exposure, more technical knowledge, grasp of the language, this sort of thing, that virtually no local church can produce."
  
  
• "Yet it's really important for those who teach in such places, nevertheless, to be pastors first, because if they think of themselves as teachers and scholars first, then they tend to produce teachers and scholars. So there's a stamping not simply from the course materials, but from your own values, what you think about, what you dream about."
  
  
• "So at our seminary, we always hire a certain percentage of faculty who wish they were in the pastoral ministry or else, quite frankly, we don't want them. Now, they have to be academically competent and all the rest. But we don't want people who just want to be in a seminary.We want people who, in many ways, would prefer to be in the local church."

The following interview with Hugh Palmer took place at New Word Alive 2008. I have already published the audio version, which is available here.

Adrian
I’m here with Hugh Palmer.

Hugh
Hello!

Adrian
So, Hugh, can I just say first of all what a fantastic week this has been—to go from a standing start to . . . how many people are here?

Hugh
Pretty much 4,000.

Adrian
And it was all sold out within a matter of weeks, wasn’t it?

Hugh
Yes. The site was sold out, and then we sold the best part of a thousand event passes on top of that.

Adrian
Wonderful—that’s amazing! So, what are we going to do next year then?

Hugh
Well, next year we’re heading to Prestatyn, and we’ve got two weeks back-to-back in the run-up to Easter. It’s a similar size site—it takes about 3,000. So we need even more people there.

Adrian
What kinds of people should come? It’s not just for students, is it?

Hugh
No, it’s anyone and everyone! The first week is during university holidays, but not during school holidays, so obviously that will be one where the student track will run, but where anyone who isn’t limited by school holidays is welcome. There will be plenty for all who are there. Then, in the second week (the week running up to Easter itself), we’ll have the full children and youth program and all the usual range of Bible teaching.

Adrian
There are lots of different conferences that run. What would you say is unique about this one? Well . . . not so much unique, but what is the vision of this conference?

Hugh
Well, the vision of this conference is to understand firmly and clearly the biblical gospel of Jesus, and yet we want to include anyone who wants to stand with us. It’s been very exciting this year to see the huge range of churches represented here. It’s been an encouraging thing for us. Our vision is not just that it will be a good holiday week and that there will be good Bible teaching, but that this really would be a time that does serve the churches; that it equips and trains us; and also, sends us out with a vision for and ability to start to reach the world.

Adrian
That sounds pretty great. So, you really are looking for Christians from all sorts of persuasions and colors and backgrounds, are you?

Hugh
Anyone who wants to stand firmly on the biblical gospel of Jesus, we want to welcome to come with us, join with us, train and grow with us.

Adrian
That’s fantastic. And we’ve had people from as far a field as Newfrontiers and the Anglican church, like yourself, and all sorts of other different groupings as well, haven’t we this year—in the speakers and also in the participants?

Hugh
Yes, and there are people who still seem to be talking to each other at the end of the week!

Adrian
Yes. I don’t think I’ve seen any fisticuffs!

Hugh
No, we try to keep those out of sight! (Laughter)

Adrian
Well, Hugh, I’m sure you’re busy and need to get on with other things. Thanks for walking with me and just sharing a few thoughts. It’s been great. Possibly we’ll do this in more detail at some point in the future when we can do a proper Adrian Warnock interview with you. But for right now, thanks loads for these few minutes. I’ll let you get on with what you’re doing.

Hugh
Thanks, Adrian. Take care.

This is the final segment of my three-part interview with Wallace Benn, Bishop of Lewes and previous leader of Word Alive. Part one can be read here, and part two here.

In the concluding section, the Bishop talks about handing over the leadership duties to Hugh Palmer, and the role New Word Alive has in fostering continued cooperation between conviction evangelicals.

Adrian
Practically speaking, I know next year New Word Alive is moving on to two weeks and all that kind of stuff. Are you able to give us any insider tips about what it’s going to look like next year, or is that all still in the early stages?

Wallace Benn
No, because I’m no longer on the planning committee.

Adrian
Oh, I see. So you can’t . . .

Wallace Benn
No, there was a real hand-over. This year is a lovely opportunity for me, with great delight, to hand it over to my friend, Hugh Palmer. It really is out there, so I’m not on the steering committee. But I go on being, for as long as people want me to be, associated with and involved in New Word Alive, and am totally supportive up front in every way of their whole development.

Adrian
It’s nice to know, again, breaking down my caricatures, that there are evangelical bishops out there—in fact, there are several of you, aren’t there?

Wallace Benn
There are!

Adrian
You’re not alone, then.

Wallace Benn
Happily, there are!

Adrian
I know some people might be listening to this in America, and they may not necessarily have heard of Hugh, but Hugh (I think I might say this) is sort of filling John Stott’s shoes in a sense, isn’t he, at All Souls. Have I got that right?

Wallace Benn
Yes, well he’s the successor to the role that John Stott once held. There have been people there in-between—Richard Bewes, who is very well known, was the last rector of All Souls, so Hugh is the immediate successor of Richard Bewes . . .

Adrian
Right, got you. Okay.

Wallace Benn
. . . who, in turn . . . before him there was Michael Baughen, and before that John Stott.

Adrian
John Stott has just retired, I understand, hasn’t he, just this last year?

Wallace Benn
Yes he has. He’s retired from public ministry. He’s delightful as ever, and as sharp as anything, but not very mobile.

Adrian
Right, okay. There are some great names of evangelicals who have been around for years, and Stott was certainly one of them. I think Stott would have been happy to be here, don’t you?

Wallace Benn
Absolutely delighted, I’m sure! And my old professor and friend would also have been delighted to be here—Jim Packer—and people like Alec Motyer, another well-known stalwart in his generation of evangelicals.

Adrian
Yes, I’m sure that’s right. There is sort of a “handing over” of generations that is happening a little bit now. It will be interesting to see who rises to the fore, really, and obviously this is, again, another opportunity for some of those people to speak to large numbers of people.

Wallace Benn
I think the confessional evangelicals who are strong doctrinally on the big truths of the Bible will more and more find themselves pulling together and working together.

Adrian
I think you’re right.

Wallace Benn
And I think that’s a good thing in a way because we need one another.

Adrian
I think we do. And I think we can learn from one another, can’t we? It’s been great to see that in action here, with vibrant worship songs really sort of bouncing out from the stage, and then some hymns as well, of course, because we don’t neglect the hymns. I do believe in that. And then, obviously, solid biblical teaching. To see all that in one conference is great, isn’t it?

Wallace Benn
From your side of the church, the music of Townend and Getty has been fabulous in putting to music—very good music and singable music—really really well thought through doctrinal convictions and biblical convictions, and that’s a great gift to the whole Church. Increasingly, I think we need to be careful in different denominations that we just don’t build empires, because actually it’s God’s kingdom and not our own—it’s his Word that matters. So, in a world where we have a great missionary task to win the world for Christ, we need to work more together.

Adrian
Yes, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think it holds for people outside the Church as well, because there’s always that conception, “Oh, Christians! They’re all so divided, and they’re petty divisions. Some people might argue that about Christians. But I guess this week helps to show that, in a sense, that’s not right—that we can work with people across all sorts of boundaries.

Wallace Benn
There are secondary things here that we would disagree about, but none of them are important compared to the big truths of the Christian faith, and our total conviction that we need to live as Christians under the supreme authority of Bible.

Adrian
Yes. I think that’s absolutely right.

Wallace Benn
If you can prove to me from Scripture that something I hold to is wrong, I’m duty bound to change it. And I know you are, too.

Adrian
Yes!

Wallace Benn
So, that’s a great thing.

Adrian
And that’s the point, isn’t it? This is the thing for me. When I sat down with Tim Chester, as I mentoned earlier, we did dialogue. We had a bit of a debate going on, and I was bracing myself for what you do get when you talk to some people, which is just human reason, or it will be something to accommodate a culture. Do you know what I’m trying to say? Those issues we were talking about . . .

Wallace Benn
Yes.

Adrian
What was really striking was, as much as Tim and I might disagree, we were both coming at it from a conviction that we believed that this was what the Bible was saying. So we could agree to disagree in that sense because I respect somebody who follows their convictions because they believe they are biblical convictions. I might happen to think they’re wrong, but as long as they have that humble attitude about it, for me that’s good enough. And I’m sure . . . I don’t know if I’m expressing that very well.

Wallace Benn
No, no, that’s fine. I agree with that point.

Adrian
Do you think there will be other ways in which we will work together as well? Who knows? As you’re looking into the future, what sort of things do you think will come up? It’s a difficult one, I guess.

Wallace Benn
I think it is a difficult one, but I think a lot will depend . . . locally on the ground, and certainly around where I live and work, there is increasing cooperation between conviction evangelicals. And it’s lovely to see, I think, and very thrilling to see. I think it’s been over the last four or five years, there has begun to develop the kind of new wine-side of the evangelical movement and the reformed side of the evangelical movement that are actually, on fundamental convictions, saying the same things and sharing the same convictions. Just as a convinced evangelical Anglican and a convinced evangelical Newfrontiers man are actually focused on the cross, and convinced about all the central truths of evangelical Christianity. And I love what John Stott said years ago—that he was a Christian first, an evangelical second, and an Anglican third. I mean, that’s right, isn’t it? The way we should . . .

Adrian
Yes. I think that’s right. Well, look, I don’t want to take too much of your time. I’m sure you have other things you need to go to, but thank you so much for joining us.

Wallace Benn
It’s been a great pleasure.

Adrian
I look forward to, no doubt, seeing you again, and perhaps meeting some of your other evangelical colleagues at various points.

Wallace Benn
Thanks for the conversation, Adrian.

This is the second part of a three-part interview I did with Bishop Wallace Benn at the New Word Alive conference last week. You can read part 1 here.

In this segment, the Bishop discusses his total commitment to the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement, and gives some reasons why PSA "is central to a proper understanding of the gospel."

Adrian
You just mentioned a high view of the cross. For those people who might not understand what all that means, would you mind unpacking that for a moment?

Wallace Benn
Those who founded Word Alive, and Word Alive through the years, and now New Word Alive, are totally committed to the penal substitutionary view of the atonement. That is, that Jesus died as our substitute and our sin-bearer—that you and I deserve to be on the cross.

One of the lovely things (I don’t know if you know this) in Mel Gibson’s film, The Passion of the Christ, he was asked whether he took any part in the film, having directed it. And he said, “Well, only one. It’s my hand that holds the nails that crucified Christ in the film.” That’s a profound and right insight—that he died, not just for the whole world, but he died for ME! And actually it was understanding that which was the means of my conversion.

So, not only did Jesus die as our sin-bearing substitute, but in so doing, he took the wrath of God against our sin. He actually took our place, and the righteous judgment of God against sin Jesus dealt with. Without that, you and I would be hopeless in a very literal sense—actually without any hope at all. So I have no sympathy whatsoever with people who want to water that down for entirely wrong reasons, in my opinion. I think that’s central to a proper understanding of the gospel.

Adrian
We certainly haven’t seen any watering down of that here, have we?

Wallace Benn
No, absolutely not!

Adrian
Speaker after speaker has been crystal clear.

Wallace Benn
I’m absolutely delighted to affirm it. It’s a great joy to me to see that done.

Adrian
Yes, I think that’s right. There is obviously a joining of hands of people who all feel the same way. It’s not a minority position at all, is it?

Wallace Benn
Not at all!

Adrian
When you have, for example, that list (I think your name is on it)—that list of people who affirmed that particular book, Pierced for Our Transgressions, it’s almost like a Who’s Who of Christianity. I know there were some people who didn’t affirm it, but the number of people who did, from all kinds of different backgrounds—you might say, "Surely those two groups aren’t even talking to each other!"— and yet they both would look up and say, “No, this is the gospel!”

Wallace Benn
It was a pleasure to be one of those whose name was associated with that magnificent book, truly. That’s great to see.

Adrian
Absolutely. And it’s not as though that’s the only book either, is it? There are a lot of books out there that say the same thing basically.

Wallace Benn
I’m an old student of J. I. Packer, who thirty years ago wrote a magnificent defense of the penal substitutionary idea of the atonement. That view of the cross is the classic evangelical view, and if we move away from it, we move away from the teaching of the Bible. We move away from the teaching of our forefathers in terms of an understanding of the gospel. There are many other things you can say about the cross—there isn’t only one thing you can say about the cross. But those of us who are here believe that penal substitution is the glue that holds all the other things together.

Adrian
That’s a lovely way of putting it actually, isn’t it?

Continued in part 3 . . .

While I was in Pwllheli at New Word Alive, I did an MP3 interview with Bishop Wallace Benn. I thought that I would share the full transcript here over the next few days.

Adrian
This is Adrian Warnock here, and right now I’m in the Refectory, so you can probably hear some of the hubbub as people finish their meals. I think I got the last dinner today, so it may die down as we continue here.

I’m here with the Bishop. I’m very grateful that he’s been able to join us. Would you like to introduce yourself a little bit for anyone who may not know who you are and what your role has been with this event.

Wallace Benn
I’m Wallace Benn. I’m the Bishop of Lewes—that’s the area of Bishop of East Sussex. I used to be Chairman of Word Alive, and I’m delighted to be involved in New Word Alive doing leadership seminars in the evening and some Bible teaching at the team event in the morning.

Adrian
I’ve just heard from Hugh Palmer his expression of what we want this week, and this conference, to be about. I’m just wondering what your own personal view of that would be in terms of—What are your hopes and dreams for moving forward? Are you going to carry on being involved in this, or what’s the deal for you?

Wallace Benn
Yes, I would love to carry on being involved. We’ll wait and see about that in terms of times and dates, etc., but I would love to be involved. I think the vision for New Word Alive is very much the same as the original vision for Word Alive, which was to have lively, relevant Bible teaching of a high quality for the whole family, including students, with lively modern worship, and to major on Bible teaching and the important doctrines of the Christian faith rather than some secondary issues that may divide the sects.

Adrian
For me, one of the excellent things about this week has been bringing people together from all sorts of different backgrounds. This is actually, believe it or not, and despite the fact that I’ve been a Christian for a long while, and I’ve met all kinds of different church leaders and interviewed them, you’re the first bishop I’ve ever actually met in the flesh in my entire Christian life. And I’ve never heard one preach either.

Wallace Benn
(Laughs) I don’t know whether that’s a singular mercy or a blessing!

Adrian
(Laughs) I don’t know either! I’ve met other people who I perhaps would not have met in another context because my background is actually Newfrontiers. I think that, for example, you’ve met Terry Virgo here for the first time as well?

Wallace Benn
Yes. Terry Virgo and I have been talking about doing something together. Where I’m based in Eastbourne, I work quite closely with some of the Newfrontiers leaders—Andy Johnson is a very good friend, and we’re working on something called “Bible by the Beach,” which is another different new project.

Adrian
It’s great, really, to see that. And someone said to me, Hugh Palmer, yourself, and guys like Terry and John Piper and Don Carson—they all are committed to the central tenets of the cross and the gospel, and in that sense the things that divide, if they do divide, are so much less important.

Wallace Benn
Absolutely! The original vision of Word Alive was to have a conference committed to a high view of the Bible and to the teaching of it in a high view way, and a high view of the cross, and the central truths of the Christian faith, and not to deviate from those things. It is wonderful to get together with like-minded brothers and sisters who share exactly the same kind of commitment. It’s a delight. It’s a new association to us.

Adrian
Yes, it is, it is!

Wallace Benn
I think there’s a lot of discovering of one another here. There are folks standing for the same things, who have the same passions.

Adrian
I think that’s right. I think it helps one to get rid of the caricatures. I mean, you’re not wearing a robe right now, Bishop!

Wallace Benn
No, no! (Laughter) Happily!

Adrian
Do you know what I mean? I know that’s a silly example, but seriously, I think we build up caricatures of each other, and of what we think other people stand for. And yet when you actually meet them in the flesh . . . I had a great chat with Tim Chester from Sheffield. His ecclesiology is obviously very different to mine, and I built up all kinds of images of what people who hold that kind of ecclesiology are obviously like. And then you meet someone like that, and you sit down and talk about the Bible, and you realize that actually here’s a guy who loves the Bible. For me, that’s the most important thing.

Wallace Benn
Absolutely! Absolutely.

Continued in part 2 . . .

The second sermon that John Piper preached at New Word Alive is now available online. You can download the audio for free or read my notes.

New Word Alive 2008 is now over. Here is a full list of my reports and interviews of the conference. I will be releasing some video interviews with John Piper, Don Carson, and Terry Virgo over the next couple of weeks.

You can also visit the New Word Alive website to order CDs, and links to free mp3 downloads of the two Piper talks will be available from my reports of the sessions in the following list:

APRIL 7, 2008

• A Conference is Born
  
• Video on the Road to Pwllheli in North Wales
  
• Photos on the Road to Pwllheli
  
• My First Audio Impressions
  
• Terry Virgo Preaching on Grace

APRIL 8, 2008

• Audio Impressions From Participants
  
• Don Carson on 1 John, Part 1
  
• Mike Ovey on Humanity
  
• Interview With Stuart Townend
  
• John Piper on Treasuring Christ and the Call to Suffer, Part 1

APRIL 9, 2008

• Audio Response to John Piper's Sermon on Suffering
  
• Don Carson on 1 John, Part 2
  
• Remembering What Really Matters
  
• John Piper on Treasuring Christ and the Call to Suffer, Part 2

APRIL 10, 2008

• Audio Response to John Piper's Second Sermon on Suffering
  
• Audio Interview With NWA Exhibitors
  
• Don Carson on 1 John, Part 3
  
• Interview With Hugh Palmer
  
• Interview With Bishop Wallace Benn
  
• Hugh Palmer on Treasuring Christ and the Call to Service
  
• Interview With Phatfish

APRIL 11, 2008

• Dave Bish Interviews Me
  
• Final Audio Comments

APRIL 13, 2008

• Richard Cunningham on Romans 12

APRIL 14, 2008

• Don Carson on 1 John and Assurance
  

Carson closed the conference with his final talk on 1 John. I was home by this time, but I was able to listen to it over the weekend. You can do the same by ordering CDs from the New Word Alive website. I will share some short notes of it here.

Because of his love for us, we should love others. If people can't see God, they can see his love operating in us as we love one another.

In the previous talk, Don spoke of three tests—the truth test, the love test, and the obedience test. But, in fact, the three are connected—you can't have one without the other.

If you are born of God, it's because you recognize who Jesus is. If you recognize your sibling, you will love them, and you will want to do what Jesus says if you love him. In the New Testament, faith is not merely a subjective opinion or a synonym for religion. Biblical faith is a belief in the truth. We also trust and abandon ourselves to the risen Christ. We have to pass all three tests, not focus on one or two of them.

Transformed Christian living plays a role in Christian assurance—the “we know” words of 1 John.

We should be careful about how we lead people to assurance. The medieval Catholics said it was pride to think you were sure. Luther claimed that if you didn't have assurance it meant that you did not really have faith adequately—so if you strengthen your faith it will become assurance. Calvin did say that the Spirit would bear witness. Also, in 1 John we see some grounds. Calvin did say that the cross is by far the strongest place we should go for assurance. The obedience test will never be sufficiently fulfilled in us as we will always feel we have failed and/or will trust in our own works. There is the confirming work of the Spirit. Genuine Christianity perseveres, and the change attests the reality. If there is no change, you should question the reality of your faith. There is matchless assurance for all Christians whose eyes are fixed on the cross and who show some evidence of change.

What do you long for and are most passionate about? Whose approval do you most seek? What gives you greatest joy? What would you most complain about losing? Carson urged us to keep away from idols, and to devote ourselves to God and following him.

While I was driving through the night, Richard Cunningham was speaking to the students at New Word Alive. Thanks to the wonders of technology, I can listen to this, and so can you if you pop over to the NWA site and order CDs. I will share some short notes here.

We are told by Paul to act in a certain way in view of God's mercies. We are not to be those who conform and fit in. It’s not the easy-going lifestyle, but the considered one.

Richard’s 11 year old nephew was recently told he will die. Without hesitation he said to his doctor, “I am not afraid of dying. I have a friend in Jesus. He is going to take me to be with him.” If our life is built on something solid, we will live differently. We offer all we have and are to the Lord.

We cannot start with exhortations. We have to put theology before ethics. The first chapters of Romans show that we are all guilty before God and need his mercy. Our sin is our only contribution to our forgiveness.

Sometimes we find security within the rules. Grace is unflattering and uncomfortable. Some of us are more naturally pleasure-seeking. We need to get off the beach and onto the altar.

Often we think following God will be tough and that he will ruin our lives. If we understand his mercies, how could we think that? God wants us to be those who make the glory of God known throughout the world.

Offering our bodies is first of all a rational and sensible thing. The word “spiritual” there can be translated reasonable or rational. It is not about dividing your lives between spiritual or secular. It is, instead, rather foolish to exchange the real God for worshiping the created. If we have experienced the mercy of God, how can we continue to offer our bodies in slavery in sin?

The full potential of humans is to serve God. It is only when we treasure God that we will offer ourselves to him. We exercise gifts because of the abilities God gives us. Men can have a tendency to be passive. It is only when we are active that we will find the purpose for which we were made.

We don't serve because of the debtor’s ethic. We wouldn't say to our wives, “I had no choice; I didn't want to be in your debt, I felt guilty, so I bought you these flowers.” We serve God because we love him, not for some half-hearted reason. He loved and died for us. How could we do anything other than give him everything back?

God loved us while we were abusing ourselves. Knowing where we are going will drive us to make this life last.

I didn't get a chance to capture people's response to Hugh Palmers' talk as I had to drive through the night to get home so I could go to work today. So when I was about half-way home, when I needed a break, I pulled into a service station and recorded this. It covers my reaction to Hugh's talk, the week as a whole, and also explains a bit about just what a blog is for anyone who is new around here! You can download it here.

There were a few other bloggers at the event. Pop over to the following blogs. If I have missed anyone, please let me know, or just write a post linking here and I should find you using this Google Blogsearch for other blog coverage or to meet fellow NWA attenders.

• the blue fish project — http://thebluefish.blogspot.com/
  
• Terry Virgo — http://www.janga.biz/terryvirgoblog
  
• Sean Green — http://seangreensblog.blogspot.com/
  
• rain — http://paper-angels.blogspot.com/
  
• Chris — http://chriswatsonlee.wordpress.com/
  
• Tim Chester — http://timchester.wordpress.com/
  
• Hughbo — http://www.hughbourne.co.uk/
  
• Simon — http://hiddenwithchristingod.blogspot.com/2008/04/very-excited.html
  
• Dan Hames — http://danhames.blogspot.com/2008/04/new-word-alive.html
  

My blogging buddy, Dave Bish, of The Bluefish Project yesterday hijacked my ipod recorder and turned the tables on me. He felt it was time somebody interviewed me. You can pop over to his site to listen.

It was a thrill to be able to interview Nathan Fellingham today as my final New Word Alive interview. You can download the audio here.

Nathan is married to Lou Fellingham, who will soon release her new solo album. They, together with Nathan's brother, Luke, and Mike Sanderman form the fantastic Christian band, Phatfish.



Phatfish have written a number of great Christian songs. These include There is a Day, Holy, and O God of Love. You can legally download music, lyrics, and MP3s from the Fellingham family at the Kingsway website.

Earlier today I interviewed Hugh Palmer. Tonight, in typical wry self-depreciating humor, he began his talk by saying that we would be moving from the American passion we saw demonstrated last night, to the British understatement we could expect to experience now.

He began by telling us that we don't tell people the gospel for one of two reasons—either because we don't believe the gospel or because we don't love them. Hugh says he still struggles with evangelism and is looking for a third option, but can't find one. We saw in Romans 8 “from no condemnation to no separation.”

Hugh pointed us to the heart that Paul had for his countrymen. Too often we don't really share Paul’s attitude—which was “curse me, not them.” It’s like Moses when the people had worshipped the golden calf. Neither Moses nor Paul can be cursed for others or blotted out of the book. Only the innocent Christ was cut off for others’ sins. There is a curse for those who turn their backs on God. It is Christ-like to long for our friends to know what we have known. If we don't recognize ourselves in this attitude, does it mean we don't love or we don't believe the gospel? We need to pray that God will give us the evangelist’s heart—actually the Christian’s heart.

God has given over people to disobedience so he can have mercy on them. We are urged by Paul to present our bodies to God as an act of worship. It is striking that he uses ritualistic cultic language, but then he ignores it all. We have an empty life full of guilt without God, which Jesus fills. We don't deserve God’s love, but because of his mercy he loves us. Gripped by the mercy of God, we are then to offer our bodies. He doesn't ask us to give just our hearts to the Lord, but our bodies. Don't try and keep God in the so-called “spiritual” part of you. It’s carried around in our bodies. All the rest comes with it.

In the temple, sacrifices would be living, but end up dead. Here it’s the other way around—we are to offer sacrifices as those who have been brought to life. We worship by driving for Christ, by resting for Christ, by working in our workplaces for Christ, etc.

Evangelists are awkward people once things are going well. Suddenly they want to plant a new church! They throw all the pieces up in the air and leave the pastor to put them back together. But we are all to have the heart of an evangelist.

We are to be transformed. It is our minds that have to radically change. Beware of comfortable Christianity! Hugh said he was respectably godless before his conversion. But he discovered that his existence was shriveled. In the Christian body we have different parts with different functions. We are committed, we belong, we are serving. When people say they don't feel they belong, it's often because they're not serving. It is about putting people before ourselves as more important than we are.

Be willing to associate with people of low position. Relate to people who are different to you. There are 55 different nationalities represented at All Souls Church. May the gospel define us—it's more important than Anglican versus Free Church, old versus young, excited versus understated. Be careful about being too settled or the job is done now. Whether we move or not, we should have a godly restlessness.

We need the Spirit to take his word and re-tune our thinking to be more like him as we read our Bibles. Only then can we test and approve what God’s will is. It is only then that life will feel like a round peg in a round hole. What attracted Hugh to Christ was not the preachers, but a Christian friend who wasn't like everybody else. He was like nobody else Hugh had met before. May we be among those who won’t settle for anything less than a radical change. In view of God's mercy, let’s offer him our bodies.

UPDATE
The full text of this interview can be read at the following posts:

• Bishop Wallace Benn at New Word Alive
  
• Wallace Benn on Penal Substitutionary Atonement
  
• Wallace Benn on Handing Over to Hugh Palmer
  
  
  Here is another interview which you can download here. The name, Bishop Wallace Benn, has been synonymous with Word Alive for years. Although, with the formation of New Word Alive, he has taken the opportunity to hand over the reigns to Hugh Palmer, he is here this week and still very much in the background supporting this event.
  
  Bishop Benn kindly agreed to sit with me over lunch. He was passionate in his declaration of support for penal substitution, and is committed to continue working with those who also hold to that doctrine.
  

UPDATE
The full text of this interview can be read here.

One of the busiest men on site is Hugh Palmer, who is the host this week and the chair of New Word Alive. I was able to grab him for just a few minutes walking from one part of the site to another.

Hugh is the minister of All Souls Langham Place where John Stott was based. Hugh shares his vision for this conference, and speaks about what will happen next year. You can download the audio here.

I will share slightly briefer notes than usual on this morning’s talk—my fingers are getting tired!

Don Carson began his talk on 1 John 3 by making a claim that it is actually only because of the Bible that religion and morality were first strongly linked together. It is only because of Christianity that our culture believes that we should be consistent in our behavior. Sin is broad. Sin is not just lawlessness, it is also a lack of faith that you will be able to not do something you want to do. Because law is of God himself, breaking the law is devaluing God. But, of course, we cannot claim to not sin—even as Christians.

In the first century sonship was both familial and behavioral. Most sons and daughters ended up doing what their parents did. If your father was a baker, you became one. Jesus became a carpenter because his dad was a carpenter. So, for example, when Jesus says that people are “children of the devil,” he means that we are so much like the devil it is as if the devil is our father, not that demons mated with our mother! Therefore, in order to be called a “child of God,” we must act like the children of God. No one who is born of God sins. This is in the present tense, and it sometimes has the force of continuity, so we often translate it as “we don't continue to sin,”—i.e. we cannot go on sinning. We tend to soften this to become “we cannot practice sin.” There is some truth to that, but we should not soften the sharpness of John's language. John is shockingly stark in what he says.

There are grades of sin, but it is all of the same stuff. There is a stark choice between this and the life to which Christ has called us—that of laying down our lives for others like Jesus did. We should love, and not love merely with words, but with our actions. If we pray and also watch porn, how can we expect an answer?

We are then told to test the spirits. In the Old Testament, one of the tests was whether something that was said came to pass, but also whether it was consistent with Scripture. Christians can be easily gullible. We don't always discriminate and exercise discernment. We have to recognize that people and movements are sometimes mixed bags. We need to sift and weed out what is unhelpful, but accept the good.

We see that in the context of denying Christ’s coming in the faith by the gnostics, the key test to discern spirits was whether they believed Jesus came in the flesh. What is interesting is that elsewhere in the Bible there are other tests—for example, if the spirit declares “Jesus is Lord.” So often what is being denied in different generations varies. We need to be careful that we understand and are clear about issues that are being denied in our generation.

We recognize the spirit of truth by those who are “with us.” This can be dismissed as merely a sectarian spirit. No, we are speaking about the gospel which was taught by the first Apostles. John is one of those initial Apostles.

The tests of obedience, love, and truth are strong. Nowhere are they stronger than in verse 9. John is saying that we cannot sin if we are born from God. Yet in chapter 1 he has already said that if we say we haven't sinned then we make God a liar. It’s not that we cannot sin, it is that it is inappropriate for us to sin. If we sin, we should not excuse it, but go for forgiveness. We should fight against it.

I spent a few minutes this morning roaming around the exhibition center, speaking to some of the Christian organizations who are attending this event, asking them what they do. You can download the audio here and visit the following websites:

1. UCCF—THE CHRISTIAN UNIONS
   http://www.uccf.org.uk/
   
   
2. THE PROCLAMATION TRUST
   http://www.proctrust.org.uk/
   
   
3. WYCLIFFE BIBLE TRANSLATORS
   http://www.wycliffe.org/
   http://www.sil.org/
   
   
4. RADSTOCK MINISTRIES
   http://www.radstock.org/
   
   
5. OAK HILL COLLEGE
   http://www.oakhill.ac.uk/
   
   
6. 9:38
   http://www.ninethirtyeight.org/
   
   
7. CAREFORCE
   http://www.careforce.co.uk/
   
   
8. INTERNATIONAL NEPAL FELLOWSHIP
   http://www.inf.org/
   
   
9. PEOPLE INTERNATIONAL
   http://www.peopleintl.org/
   
   
10. CROSSLINKS
    http://www.crosslinks.org/
    
    
11. SERVING IN MISSION (SIM)
    http://www.sim.co.uk/
    
    
12. PRECEPT MINISTRIES UNITED KINGDOM
    http://www.precept.org.uk/
    
    
13. RELEASE INTERNATIONAL
    http://www.releaseinternational.org/
    
    
14. LOVEWISE
    http://www.lovewise.org.uk/
    
    
15. NEW WORD ALIVE
    http://www.newwordalive.org/
    
    
16. CHRISTIAN VOCATIONS
    http://www.christianvocations.org/
    
    
17. EURASIAN MISSIONARY COLLEGE
    http://www.eurasian-ministries.org/
    
    
18. FRIENDS INTERNATIONAL
    http://www.friends-international.org/
    
    
19. TEARFUND
    http://www.tearfund.org/
    
    
20. THE GOOD BOOK COMPANY
    http://www.thegoodbook.co.uk/
    
    
21. KESWICK MINISTRIES
    http://www.keswickministries.org/
    
    
22. OM INTERNATIONAL
    http://www.om.org/
    
    
23. BARNABAS FUND
    http://www.barnabasfund.org/
    
    
24. AFFINITY
    http://www.affinity.org.uk/
    
    
25. GO TEACH
    http://www.goteach.org.uk/
    
    
26. MECO INTERNATIONAL (Middle East Christian Outreach)
    http://www.aboutmeco.org/
    
    
27. LONDON THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY
    http://www.ltslondon.org/
    
    
28. WALES EVANGELICAL SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY WEST
    http://www.west.org.uk/
    
    
29. OMF (Overseas Missionary Fellowship)
    http://www.omf.org/uk/
    
    
30. FESTIVE
    http://www.festive.org.uk/

Last night I went to the student celebration rather than the adult one. I found a small group of students afterwards and captured their response. You can download it here.

UPDATE
Desiring God has now made the audio of this sermon available for free online.

Once again, Piper prayed and acknowledged his sense of unworthiness.

Romans 8:20 makes it plain that all suffering is judicial. It is a judicial act of God that brings these things on the earth. Because you have done this God says, “I will surely multiply your pain . . .” (Genesis 3:16). Natural evil is a weak testimony to the ghastliness of evil. This sin includes even our mere preferring of other things to God.

Having said that all suffering is a judicial sentence on the universe, verses 1 and 3 of chapter 8 make an important qualification. That is that no Christian experiences suffering as condemnation. Jesus absorbed all the condemnation of all the people who are united to him by faith. All of your suffering is not judgment and punishment—it is something else. It would be a tremendous dishonor for you to feel judged by God if you are in Christ.

Suffering in the Bible has many designs. For those who are unbelievers, all suffering is punishment, but all suffering is purification for believers. For those who are on their way to being Christians, suffering is to awaken them. For a non-Christian, what will happen with suffering will depend on what they do with Christ. If they turn to God it will have been in order to get their attention, and is thus redemptive, or it will be part of an everlasting life of judgment culminating in hell.

In the fall, God was doing more than merely responding to sin. He never is merely responsive. Instead he was permitting it by design so that he could carry out his purposes. God was fulfilling an eternal plan in order that the apex of his glory would be revealed through grace. The apex of his grace would be Christ. The apex of Christ's manifesting of grace would be his death on the cross. This is the reason the universe exists.

WHAT MORE WAS GOD DOING IN UNLEASHING SUFFERING?

Ephesians 1:6 says that we were predestined “to the praise of his glorious grace.” We exist to bring praise to the glory of his grace. Grace means being treated better than we deserve. Grace assumes demerit. If we were perfect we could not receive grace. Only fallen people can receive any grace! The world had to be allowed to fall in order for this to happen. This is not mere logic—it is driven by verses of the Bible! “. . . because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.” (2 Timothy 1:9). The grace was all there and planned and given to us before the world was even made.

“. . . everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain” (Revelation 13:8). The word literally means slaughtered. It was not clean; it was not quick; and it was gross. You would have thrown up, or screamed, or run away. If the book was called the book of the killed one before the foundation of the world, then the slaughter was planned before the foundation of the world. If so, then the world was created and the fall allowed so that we might be forgiven. Some people say that in heaven we won’t remember horrible things. But the main thing we will remember is the most horrible thing that ever happened in the world.

We should not be thinking big thoughts about suffering, but big thoughts about Jesus’ supremacy. He is the center, the reason for everything. It is all about Jesus. Everything is pointing to Jesus as Creator and Redeemer of the universe. The main expression of grace is the crucifixion of Christ. When God subjected the world to Judas-like murderous treachery, he was preparing the cross in order for us to be saved.

In Christ's death on the cross there is a glory that is manifold. First, he purchased deliverance from pain for all those who are in him. “By his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53). Second, he purchased our faith. This faith is sustaining and will uphold us when we are not healed.

God is both healer and the one who satisfies the suffering soul. We can glorify God by being healed. Piper said he believes wholeheartedly in the gift of healing. He thinks we should ask God to heal people by placing hands on the sick person’s shoulder. No need to add magic words. “If it be your will.” Just ask. Do what you would want someone else to do for you. If you love people, you will pray for them.

But in verse 23 we groan inwardly. In the midst of suffering that is not removed by healing, the cross purchased the grace to still be satisfied in God. Even we groan. This is there to prevent over-realized eschatology. Since Christ has purchased healing some say it is all now. Excessive charismatics get the notion that we can have every healing now. In fact, the sustaining grace is normal in this age, and the healing grace seems less common. God wants the people around us to marvel at the worth of Jesus when we love him in pain.

Why does the proportion of these two graces work the way it does? When a person is miraculously healed of a cancer, there are several things about that which do not bring as much glory. There are several ambiguities about healings that mean less praise might go up to God. First of all, people doubt the medical side of it and say that the original pictures were wrong. Second, are people praising the glory of Jesus or are they giving glory to health? Third, a few years later the healing is probably largely forgotten and there are no more prayer meetings for that man. In a sense that is perhaps why God doesn't always heal—in order that the value of Christ might be seen in a man who goes on loving God in the midst of suffering.

WHAT HELPS ARE THERE FOR US?

• After this time there will be a glory for us to see, that will satisfy our soul. We love to see greatness. We will be granted the soul-satisfying sight of the greatest reality in the universe.
  
  
• But, as we see in verse 19, there will be a revealing of the sons of God to the universe. We don't look like children of God yet. Our faces will shine like the sun in the kingdom. We will be changed (verse 21). Creation will be set free into the freedom of the glory of the children of God! We will be glorified. There is a freedom. We are bound up. We will become fit to see and enjoy. Our British restraints won't matter any more, or the fact that your dad beat you up. It’s all going to change. The sting of death will have been taken away. We will be capable of infinite happiness in Christ.
  
  
• We will see a rearrangement of creation that will allow all this to happen. The universe is about people. He changes us, then changes everything. Mountains and seas will not be thrown away. The new heavens and earth are this world renewed. We will be satisfied.
  
  
• God promises that the miseries of the universe are not death throes, but birth pangs. If you are in the kingdom now, every pain is about something new coming. If you hear a scream in a hospital, you will interpret it differently, depending on if you hear it in a cancer ward or a labor ward.
  
  
• We are to be more than conquerors. Not just death lying dead before you. What is better is if you say, “Death, get up and serve me well!” Your enemies become your servants in Christ. Whatever suffering comes your way will serve you. All things are ours—even life and death. (1 Corinthians 3:23) "Death, you think you are my enemy. Make my day!”

Piper finished with a quote of which I only caught a snippet. He said he longs for us to “Hold our lives cheap, live dangerously, and be reckless in his service!”

Imagine my delight to read this post on my darling wife's blog. It was very kind, slightly cheeky, and brought real joy to my heart. It is easy to feel disconnected from the real world while at a conference. But just in case I needed a reminder of the fact that my real delight is back at home with my family, the surprise of seeing such lovely words from my delightful wife was more than adequate.

Family really does come first for me, and so should they. I am so thankful to God for Andree and for all she does to enable me to do what I do, and to care for the precious five children. I hope that being here will help me to be a better husband and father when I get home. If I didn't believe that, I would not be here right now. I look forward to seeing them real soon!

Don Carson began by talking about the many ways in which the love of God is spoken about in the Bible. We are both always loved by God and commanded to keep ourselves in the love of God. We must not over-emphasize either of these. The Bible speaks about the love of God being general and sufficient for all. And it also speaks about the love of God being specific to those who are elect. Christ loved the Church and intentionally gave himself for her. It is definitely for those who are his people by eternal choice. But it is also, as here in 1 John, “for the sins of the whole world.” We cannot make absolutes of one or the other. It isn’t enough to say that here all is all without distinction rather than all without exception. No, here it says Christ’s death was for the whole world. God did die particularly and specifically for his people (see, for example, John 6), but here the emphasis is on the potential benefit for the whole world.

Don then read from 1 John 2.

We see here in this chapter a number of antitheses.

1. The first contrast is obedience versus disobedience. The test here is not feelings, but obedience. There are a number of verses where John says, “We know that we know him.” Don will target all of these together on the last day to look at Christian assurance. Is it God's love for us that is completed by obedience? Or is it our love for God that is demonstrated by obedience? If we are a friend of Jesus we will do everything he commands us. Knowledge and experience have their place. But high intellectual or mystical claims without corresponding obedience are just spiritual humbug. We can’t claim to be in him unless we live like him.
   
   
2. The second contrast is between love and hate. Jesus did not avoid the cross. Through his love, he suffered for us. We must follow him. We do live in a battle, but if there is no love, how can we claim to be of God?
   
   
3. The third contrast is between God centeredness and man-centeredness. Christians come to know God, not because we earned it, but because we have been forgiven. People fritter away their lives running after other things. Whether old or young, it is shocking not to be focused on God. God loves sinners not for their evil. We do not love the world in the sense of admiring their sin. We are meant to love the world in a missionary sense. It is not that we are to hate creation. It’s just that we are to despise sin and godlessness. What we treasure will then determine where we end up. So treasure God and he will draw your heart. What do you talk about with friends? This world is passing away.
   
   
4. The final contrast is between Christians and antichrist. “The last times” characteristically refers to the entire period of Church history, i.e. between Christ's first and second comings. Jesus is already reigning. This is the age of conflict. Christ and antichrists, which can be both against Christ or in place of Christ. There are those who claim to be redeemers. Teachers are not special mediators. Carson explained that he is not teaching because he is a special Levite.

There is only one way to God. We are either in or out. We are either on the rock or the sand. We must keep coming back to the cross. Eternity is drawing us.

Here are some interviews I recorded with people around the site here in North Wales to gauge the response to John Piper's sermon on suffering. I end the clip with some of my own thoughts this morning after having slept on it overnight.

UPDATE
The audio version of Piper's evening session, "Treasuring Christ and the Call to Suffer, Part 1" is now available. You can listen to it right here or download it from the Desiring God website.

Romans 8:1-35. I have often said that this chapter in the Bible is surely one of the most foundational for Christian living. I was therefore thrilled to discover that John Piper would be preaching from it this evening. In fact, Piper went on to claim that this is the greatest chapter in the entire Bible. As is always the case when he preaches, the audio and video of this sermon will be made available very soon, and I will add the links to this post.

Dr. Piper began by saying that he believes in what this New Word Alive conference event stands for. The text this evening, like the one that Don Carson spoke on this morning, hit upon the very reason for the existence of this conference. Even Piper's opening prayer was instructing. It was clear that he was leaning heavily on God’s strength and ability to help him in preaching. He prayed for us, his hearers, that we might be prepared to face future suffering that will inevitably come to each of us.

There is a real danger that Christ becomes merely the means and not the end of our salvation. Why is this? It’s because he is the means of our salvation. If he had not died, we would be judged. But there are forms of teaching, such as the “prosperity gospel” and other less obvious ones, that all mean we never quite get to the end of the gospel. Even forgiveness and justification are not the end. They are in order that God might bring us to Christ.

Treasuring Christ would change everything in our lives. It is the answer to our current world. Matthew 13:44 is Piper's favorite parable. The man found a treasure, and in his joy he went and sold everything he had and bought that field. When Christ came into the world and offered himself for us it was in order that we might have him. He is to us a treasure beyond all value. There is no sacrifice when we give up things in order to have Jesus. He is that valuable. If we love even our family more than Jesus, we are not worthy of him. He is more important than our life. Love of the Lord is better than life.

Do we truly treasure Christ? It is right to receive him as Lord and Savior. But we have to get beyond merely those things that Jesus has done for us. He wasn't simply useful to get us to heaven. He is not just “useful”—he is everything! He is King.

In John 17 Jesus prayed for you and me—that we might be with Jesus and see his glory. How thin is our concept of this. Even some Evangelicals are fearful of this idea. 2 Corinthians 4:4 says, “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ.” The good news is the glory of Jesus! We will spend eternity beholding—with ever increasing joy—his glory.

Decisions are easy. Perfection is impossible. If you feel you don't treasure him enough, join the club. Every day John Piper prays about his failing emotions. He said that his main battle is with the way his own heart is drawn to his computer, his family, etc. This is what the Christian walk is all about.

Turn the word "treasure" from a noun into a verb. Then preach in such a way that your people learn to value Christ above their jobs and careers, above money and health.

The experience of life that causes the value of Christ to be seen most clearly is when he is treasured in suffering. When he is treasured in spite of all the terrible statistics, or maybe even because of them. When everything goes wrong and you say, “Christ is all.” That is how we move from conviction to action. In Acts, a persecution led to 10,000 Christian refugees. It seems that this was needed for the Great Commission to be fulfilled. They went everywhere telling the good news. Only because they treasured Christ more than the church and city they had just lost could they have shared the gospel in those ways.

If all is going well and you say you follow Christ, no one will be impressed. But what if you lose your wife, your home, and your health? What it they then look at you and see that you are contented. They will ask you, “What are you hoping in?” Your reply should be, “Christ is more valuable than all of this.” And then they just might believe you.

In Romans 8:16-17 we see the call to suffer. There is a condition here. That we suffer with him. We suffer in order that we may eventually be resurrected and be glorified in heaven. If you reject the call to suffer, you will not go to heaven. Through many tribulations we must enter the Kingdom of God. This is not meant to call into question our standing with God. In verse 30 we see the clear affirmation that the called are glorified. Thus, God will see that those who he has justified will come through their sufferings looking like gold. Eternal security is not mechanical. It is absolutely certain, but this is in the sovereignty of God. Tomorrow morning God will make sure you wake up wanting to get to glory. Don't run from suffering, embrace it. The glory makes suffering worth it.

Verses 1-17. You are now free from all divine condemnation. Verse 2 offers evidence, not grounds. The receiving of the Spirit is the evidence. The grounds are what God did in sending his own son so that the Spirit could be unleashed into us. He condemned sin in the flesh. Whose flesh? Jesus' flesh. Whose sin? Our sin. That is why this conference exists. That is the heart of the gospel, and it is precious beyond words. That this gospel is being rejected in this nation and in America is appalling beyond words.

Someone might argue, “Sin was condemned, but not Christ.” Piper then explained: Imagine I got you on stage and said, “I’m going to hit you in the face, but it’s not you I'm hitting, it’s just your attitude.” NO! It was the will of the Lord to bruise him. God made him to be sin who knew no sin so that we could become the righteousness of God. He was wounded for us. His punishment set us free. The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He struck him. It was God the Father who killed Jesus. It is considered today to be appalling to teach or sing this. Piper said it is not appalling to him, it is his very life!

The Spirit manifests himself in many ways later in the chapter. Then we come to suffering in verses 18 to 25. He starts as follows—it is worth it. Sufferings are not comparable to the glory. It’s hard to feel this when we are in it. He steps back from our pain. We have to be careful how we do this. There is a regular rhythm between standing by a sick bed and behind a pulpit in a long-term pastoral ministry.

Suffering is Universal
God is not included, nor are the non-fallen angels. Everyone else and everything else suffers. The whole creation is groaning. It was given over to futility. It is not just about me. It is not because of my sin specifically necessarily. Something global has brought this horrid reality to pass.

Suffering is Historical
It has a beginning in history, and will continue to the end of “this present time.” There was a specific event that led to suffering—it “was subjected.”

Suffering is Judicial
This is most important, most controversial, and most helpful. In verse 20 it is clear that somebody took the universe and disordered it. Someone brought painful disorder to our relationships, workplaces, etc. GOD did it. We know it must have been God because it was done in hope! There can only be two other candidates—Adam and the devil. Did Adam and Eve sin in the hope of a future new heaven and earth? They didn't have a clue about that when they fell! Was it the devil's design to do it in hope? No! Only God did this in hope. God judged the universe because of sin. This is not moral consequentialism. Hell is explained that way, the atonement is explained that way, your suffering is explained that way. People are becoming deists. Without Romans 8 deeply gripping your soul, our first reaction is to distance God from suffering. It is as though we want to defend God! Deism hasn't comforted a human soul in the midst of pain in a thousand years. Piper said he has buried many people, has walked through people's divorces, and has seen wayward children. We need something that will help us face suffering.

The meaning of all misery in the universe is that sin is horrific. All natural evil such as floods, disease, etc. is a statement about the horror of moral evil. God looked upon sin, and he said, "Here is my response to that." He subjected the entire creation to this. Until you see the moral outrage of sin in proper proportions, and the magnificence of God in proper proportions, that will seem to you like an over-reaction. The world will say, “That’s ridiculous! He saw one sin and he did all that?” The reason for suffering is to teach you about your heart. You don't even get close to understanding the horror of the way you treat your wife. There is a moral scandal about falling short of God's glory.

If you see a soldier tripping over his own entrails and then dying, choking on his blood, you see a tiny fraction of the horrors of the world. Without this text that God subjected the world to futility in response to moral evil, we don't understand how bad sin is. He has to use bodies to show that to us. We wouldn't understand otherwise.

Nobody says it was unjust of God to save us! We all think we deserve him to save us. He says to us, "If you want to know how horrendous your sin is, look at AIDS and cancer.”

The gospel is good news for everybody who will receive the Jesus who suffered for them. Don't conclude that because there is no condemnation we will have no suffering. Our light and momentary troubles will appear as nothing when we are with Christ.

Piper then closed with prayer, thanking God for the smell of the green pastures that we have coming towards us. The day is coming when suffering will be over. He promised to explain all this further tomorrow evening.

I had the pleasure of interviewing Stuart Townend today. Stuart is based in Church of Christ the King, a Newfrontiers church in Brighton, UK, which is also home to Phatfish, Paul Oakley, and Terry Virgo.

Here is an abridged and adapted version of that interview. The entire interview can be accessed at the end of this post and is well worth listening to in its entirety. Stuart was a joy to interview and clearly passionate about worship and doctrine.

Adrian
How are you finding the conference?

Stuart
It's great, so far. There has been a good response. The standard of teaching has been world-class.

Adrian
Do tell us a bit more about your song, In Christ Alone.

Stuart
It was the first song Keith Getty and I wrote together. Keith is a fantastic melody writer. It was his music that inspired me to take my lyric writing seriously and convey the truths of the Scriptures in a poetic way to help people retain the truth. I have been humbled to see how it has been used. I get more comments on that song than all the rest put together. It was a timely song, written around the time 9-11 shook our foundations. To be able to sing at that time “No scheme of man can pluck me from his hand” was important.

Adrian
What makes a worship song good?

Stuart
Having focused on the cross of Christ, it’s important to ask, “What does that mean for me? What's the foundation of life?” It’s not just, “How does it make me feel?" Rather, it should be—"What is the unchanging truth about my life based on the unchanging truth about God and what he has done? What has God said about me or us or the Church?” Those things are unchanging truths that don't depend on whether I am having a good time or a bad time. They are about me, but they are really about God and what God has done in me. Worship is not just about singing songs that make me feel better. In the middle of whatever I am facing, God is with me. Worship should be exciting, but founded on the truth of the gospel. Our feelings are a by-product of the glorious truth we are celebrating.

Adrian
Do you think there is still as much disagreement among Christians over music as there previously was?

Stuart
I don't think there is. It’s a shame that some think lively worship has to be the modern stuff. People have been getting excited for centuries. But songs that were divisive have now been embraced. There are, however, some churches out there who are singing songs that contain theology that they actually wouldn't preach.

Adrian
Indeed! In Christ Alone has also caused some controversy, hasn't it?

Stuart
Yes, some people breach copyright law by changing a particular line. Some people will not use the song. But the problem with that is that some people are saying we shouldn't preach or sing about a core element of the gospel. I cannot make sense of the whole Bible without the concept of wrath.

Listen to the full interview by subscribing to my new podcast or download it here. For more information, visit Stuart Townend's website or read the interview Newfrontiers Magazine Online did with him in October of 2007. You can also legally download music, lyrics, and mp3's from Stuart Townend at the Kingsway website

Mike Ovey is the new principal of Oak Hill Theological College. His seminar was billed as one that would be more “stretching,” which drew me in like a moth to light. New Word Alive certainly seemed to be familiar with substantial and weighty teaching, which is very encouraging to see.

We began by being asked to do some of the work ourselves. Mike pointed us to Psalm 8 and asked us to consider what it tells us about the place of mankind in God's creation. God is a wonderful creator, but also has given a wonderful role to us. In fact, we have been given an honored role. But we live in a time when mankind has put itself out of its rightful place. We forget that God placed us in that place. The doctrine of God is intimately connected to the doctrine of humanity. We say things about God because we think things about God.

Mike is actually an engaging speaker and helped everyone in the audience to engage with his material. For example, when quoting from John Calvin he used a stereotypical French accent reminiscent of Inspector Clouseau!

Mike went on to say that atheism is a comparatively recent and minor arrival in the history of philosophy. We didn't start with atheism—we started with a denial of humanity, which led to a denial of God.

Ironically, a human rights-based society tends to demean us. For example, we become nothing but a consumer to supermarkets. Some feel that they themselves are genuinely worthless, while thinking that other people do matter. We only understand our true place when we realize that because we are created, we have value. Because we are created as material beings our bodies do matter. God says that his creation has value, so that makes “the who” of it (and hence us) valuable. It is not the highest value, since our value is derived from someone higher. We have a derived importance due to the creation order. We are God's representatives, wielding authority over the rest of the creation. Creation does not have an independent existence; it was made from nothing and so is entirely dependent on his will for it to exist.

Mike, like me, is a town man, living in North London. He spoke about how he was struck by the beauty of creation on his journey here, having been living surrounded by man’s creations of tower-blocks, etc.

Sin is not just a sin against people. It is a sin against the owner of people. If we belong to God, we cannot simply say that sex between two consenting adults is not sinful. Because we are God's possessions, that violates his ownership rights.

We can also value things made by human beings as something that God enabled them to do, even if they are not Christians.

We are relational creatures. We are designed primarily to relate with God. Sin disrupts our relationship with God, but it also disrupts our relationship with each other. Family relationships were instituted before the fall and therefore are part of God's plan for his creation. Thus the state is a secondary institution designed to protect the family. There is a clear order in value. Anarchy is obviously not desirable, so the state is necessary, of course. Ultimately the state is temporary. Family, marriage, and God come first because God has made us and values us. Our value is based on theocentricity, i.e. it comes from God. It truly is a marvelous thing to be a human being made in the image of our Creator!

This morning the expositional Bible teaching by Don Carson is totally packed. It was only by begging help from a steward that I got in. I think I’ve taken almost the last available seat in the entire main celebration event. Fortunately his talk will be repeated later this morning. It is exciting to see so many people gathered for a verse-by-verse examination of an entire New Testament book. I will have to get here earlier tomorrow morning to ensure I get a seat!

We began by reading some verses from 1 John 1.

Don launched in with a brief overview of the gospel, saying something like this:

“In the beginning God made everything good, but sadly we made a mess of everything. We have sinned and destroyed the world. We bring death. We bring decay. But God in his mercy has intervened in the world again and again. He intervened through Abraham, Moses, and the prophets. Jesus came and destroyed death. He opened a new beginning. Resurrection existence will happen in the future, but in the present we are bringing in something of God's kingdom.”

There is nothing in that presentation that is false, but something can be left out, whether accidentally or on purpose. Doing that can lead us astray. What was missing from this description is God's relationship with our sin. God intervenes to do something after standing outside the system watching the decay. But God is deeply and horrifically offended by sin! The wrath of God is mentioned repeatedly in the Bible. This is the righteous response of a holy God to his creatures defying him to his face.

What angers God is idolatry. The setting aside or “de-godding” of God. The fall was all about mankind taking on the role of God. He doesn't want any competition! What is the chief problem in human history? If we don't understand why we need a Savior, we will not understand what God has done to save us! If we pull out only a strand, we distort the entire picture. What starts off as mere silence on a theme finally has huge consequences. It has always been this way.

In its early history, gnosticism was one of the most critical dangers the Church faced. The main error taught that spiritual is good and physical is bad. If matter is intrinsically bad, how can a good God have made it? Also, how can a good Spirit, Jesus, become a man? Maybe he just cloaked himself somehow. John, in this book, stresses that his opponents deny that Jesus was the Christ.

Ethics were also affected. One branch became ascetic—wanting to whip matter down. This idea of "denying oneself" was very stringent based on the proposition that matter is bad. Another branch claimed that since bodies would die they have no significance, and therefore there was no need to be concerned about doing evil with your body—show your freedom by sinning with your body. Gnostics don't understand that the cross as crucial, since instead of the biblical concept, the eternal son abandons the imperfect human, Jesus. A few strands here and there, and before you know it, you have lost the gospel.

John faced gnosticism in its earliest stages. We looked together at how he handled it.

What Does John Long For?

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.” (1 John 1:1-4)

Here the beginning is the absolute beginning. There is a resonance with the opening of John's other book—his gospel. John is saying that the eternal became a human that he has touched and met. It also seems to remind us of Thomas' famous request to put his hand in Jesus’ wounds. Jesus was heard, seen, and touched as a resurrected being.

Jesus is the Word, but he is also the life (as there and also here). He comes back from the grave after slaying death. Fellowship is not just friendship with Christians. The word is stronger in the New Testmanet. A business set up between two partners is described as a fellowship. There is a commonality here, but it is partnership in an enterprise. We have a fellowship with the Godhead because we share in a purpose with him. If John's hearers enter into partnership with them they will get partnership to God. According to John, the way we enter the partnership with the living God is through a relationship with people. [This thought struck me powerfully and I found myself drifting from what Don was saying and thinking about how astonishing it is that a form of Christianity has arisen that makes commitment to a local church optional. We say “I don't need other people in order to meet God.” There is a sense in which that is true, of course, but surely what John is saying here is that if we are partners with God already, how can we form a partnership with God without forming one with each other, too!]

Christianity, the apostle John goes on to say, is not about giving up something—it is about gaining God. In a way, reminiscent of John Piper's book, God is the Gospel, Carson went on to stress that it is only through knowing God himself that our joy can be complete. We can be reconciled back to him. This is the source of our happiness. We exist for God. Because God is for us we can come back to him. He longs for us to share in that relationship with God.

What Stands in the Way of What John Longs For?

Sin gets in the way. But some are claiming they have not sinned. God is light. He has nothing to do with error, sin, corruption, decay, or ignorance of darkness. People call good evil and evil good. There is a twisting that happens. There is not any shadow in God. We cannot live in darkness and have fellowship with God. If we walk in light we will have a relationship, both with God and with each other. The truth is, we have all sinned. Jesus blood purifies us. To say the blood does something means that the life of Jesus violently ended is what does it. We are commended to God because of what Jesus did. When we become aware of anything that besmirches God's glory we must come back again and again to the cross. God is holy, and the more we see this the more we will be aware of our sin.

It is not just that God will somehow overlook our sins. God bore our sin, as John goes on to explain. If Jesus bore our sin, then God is just to forgive us our sin. Christ was condemned for me so I will not be condemned again! He died on my behalf. That is our hope. We cannot claim that we have not sinned. If we say that, we make God to be a liar.

What Brings About What John Longs For?

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:1-2)

If sin is inevitable, we might get the wrong idea and become less upset by it. We might decide to give up the fight and not strive to be holy. John says, I am not trying to give you an excuse to go on sinning. I want you to stop sinning! Christians must not go on sinning, but if we do, what is the solution? What brings it about? We have one who is speaking to the Father in our defense. He is our propitiation, which means that act by which God becomes propitious. It is that act by which he becomes favorable. God stands against us. Therefore, the object is God, whose attitude towards us is changed by propitiation. Expiation has as its object our sin, i.e. our sin is removed.

Many people don't like the concept that the cross makes God kindly and favorable to us. Through this human reasoning people try to explain away the concept of "turning away the wrath of God." They argue that God already loved us enough to send his son in the first place. Some argue that the wrath of God is only a metaphorical way of saying that bad things have bad consequences, which are just somehow designed into the universe. They claim God is not against us. Dodd was a major promoter of this theory. Leon Morris and others responded clearly and demonstrated the link with turning aside the wrath of God in the Old Testmanet sacrificial system.

God DOES stand over against us in wrath. To simply ignore our sin would make him unrighteous. But he ALSO stands over against us in love because he is that kind of God. God doesn't love us because we are lovable. We are not lovely. We are sinners. He loves us in spite of ourselves. He sent his son to bear our guilt, to stand in our place, and thereby God's justice is satisfied. His standing against us has now changed entirely so he is now completely favorable to us. Christ's death in the New Testament does a lot of things—it reconciles us to each other, defeats death and Satan, and removes sin, but at its heart, it reconciles us to God. It is not that Jesus had to persuade a reluctant or ambivalent detached God.

In our legal system the judge always has to be impartial. He is never the offended party and must be neutral. But when we stand before God, he is always the most offended party. His knowledge is perfect, his justice is exact. God's law is not somehow separate from God.

This MP3 is of two brief conversations I had with ordinary attenders of the event after the first meeting of the conference. We speak about the different streams of activity and their feelings about the conference so far. The best way to get the audio is to subscribe to my new podcast, or you can download it here.

If you listened to my podcast, you heard me say the conference site seemed full of students. The reason why this was the case was because I arrived so late that the first adult celebration was well underway. In fact, the worship was almost over by the time I got into the tent.

I love worshiping God in a tent. I guess this goes back to my childhood, when I attended Bible Weeks, not to mention the family heritage of being the grandson of a tent-preacher. Worship was being led by some familiar faces—Stuart Townend and Phatfish. A rousing hymn was being sung as I crept in, looking for an inconspicuous place to sit with my laptop.

Shortly after I arrived, Hugh Palmer briefly interviewed Keith Getty and Stuart Townend. Keith is an Irish songwriter based at Parkside Church in Cleveland, Ohio, and is currently touring the United States of America. Stuart is a worship leader at Church of Christ the King in Brighton. Together they have written a number of modern hymns which have had an incredible reception in the wider body of Christ. I would be surprised if any reader of my blog has not heard of or sung In Christ Alone, which last year Tim Challies reported was the only song sung at every one of the conferences he live-blogged. Not surprisingly, that hymn is somewhat controversial with some who argue about penal substitution.

Hugh asked the two songwriters how they came to work together. Stuart answered that at any given time he often had a lot of lyrics floating around, but that there were also times when composing a melody was more difficult. Keith, it seems, had exactly the opposite issue, so early-on in their friendship Keith gave Stuart a CD which had three melodies on it for which he had no words. The very first tune Stuart listened to struck him powerfully, and he wrote the lyrics for it. That song became In Christ Alone. Stuart explained that the process isn't quite as simple as it sounds, and that the lyrics and melodies can sometimes go back and forth between them several times before they become finalized.

Keith graciously claimed that at one point he had given up on Christian music altogether. He said he would wait until the preacher was about to start before he entered a church. This changed when he heard one of Stuart's songs one day, which inspired him to get back into worship music. His wife then sung a beautiful song.

Just before he began to preach, Terry Virgo (for more information on Terry see my interview with him) was asked by his introducer why he had come to preach here. His answer? “Who could refuse an invitation to come and hear John Piper and Don Carson?!!” Also, he mentioned his confidence in the local church as the main way in which discipleship is worked out, but explained that such a belief does not in any way diminish his belief in gathering saints together from many churches to hear the exposition of God's Word.

Terry began in Romans 5 and spoke of the way we want to live in the good of some of the glorious phrases we find in Paul's epistle. We read about “reigning in life,” but fail to read the small print. Terry said our mistake was to think that we will be able to live the victorious Christian life by setting ourselves rules and regulations. We are suddenly putting ourselves back under the law. But Paul is very clear that Christians should NOT be under the law. He cited Romans 6:14, Galatians 5:4, Romans 10:4, and Romans 7:1-12 in support of this idea that Christians have been released from the law. He expressed his surprise at how many Christians still believe we are under the law.

If the law is like "a husband," we are then unable to argue with him, nor are we able to leave the law and become married to another. The law is an oppressive, overbearing husband. He is right. He is authoritative. He never lifts a finger to help us. Jesus adds that the law will never pass away. So we are permanently married to a fault-finding husband who will never die. The good news of the gospel is that through the body of Christ we have passed away. In Jesus, we have all died to the law.

Jesus perfectly obeyed the law. He could challenge anyone to prove him guilty of any sin. But he also fulfilled the law in taking the full curse of the law. He substituted himself. He was made to be sin. Paul's favorite description of Christians is that they are “in Christ.” We have been crucified with Jesus. Our relationship with the law is completely over. We have been discharged—like a soldier who has been commanded and shouted at. The day when he is discharged from the army comes. Imagine if the sergeant then cries, “SOLDIER”—it doesn’t matter! He has been discharged! He is no longer under that authority. In the same way, the Christian is no longer married to the law. We have died to the law in order that we might be joined to another—to him who was raised from the dead.

The law cannot save us. Most Christians agree with that. But many people think that once we have been saved apart from the law we are meant to come back to the law in order to be sanctified. But we have died to that old impotent husband that we might be joined to the new raised-from-the-dead husband. He is not impotent, he is very potent. He doesn't come and say that we need a bit of law! The law kills, but the Spirit gives life. Why do we still think we need a bit of death?! Often when someone is saved, they immediately are told to follow rules about what they can and cannot do. Am I justified? Am I accepted? Or do I still have to try and please him?

Jesus transforms us from the inside by his grace. He gives us life. There is a real change that happens inside of us. We reign in life because of what Jesus does to really change us on the inside and through the free gift of righteousness. We must not listen to the devil who accuses us day and night; he wants us to stop trusting in Jesus’ righteousness. We don't earn God’s favor by, for example, fasting twice-a-week. We can't cover our guilt and condemnation by establishing our own righteousness. If we are doing well, pride grips us. If we are doing badly, we no longer feel that we are right with God. The truth is, we are right with God solely because of what Jesus did!

Terry made us all laugh at ourselves and our futile efforts to change in our own strength. He then took us to the story of Esau. In an important way, our hiding in Christ is different to that. We were placed there by God himself. We are not trying to deceive God. We can pray, “Catch the fragrance of your son as I come to you.” We are not against prayer or reading the Bible, but we do not do these things to somehow impress God. Jesus is the way. I don't need “a way to the Way.”

John Bunyan realized that Jesus’ righteousness is the same yesterday, today, and forever. There is nothing we can do to add or take away from that. We should not trust our frame of mind or our emotional state.

Christ's righteousness is freely given to us. We are not up and down. Sadly, often we go from husband to husband. We say “sorry” to Jesus and promise that we will do a whole lot of regulations to try and improve. Imagine saying to a new husband that you will try and improve your relationship with him by building a relationship with your previous husband! We reign in life through the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness. It is accomplished. We are now in a beautiful relationship with God through grace and faith.

If you are following along with these posts one-by-one, you will already have seen the video I took along the road to Pwllheli, and also my photos of the journey. Upon my arrival here, I thought I would record some of my very first impressions, made within minutes of parking my car. I must have made a funny sight, muttering into my iPod with its plug-in microphone, while walking along, dragging a Walt Disney World suitcase. (Yes, we did buy so much stuff on our recent trip there that we needed to buy a new case!)

You can listen to that short recording and a Welsh greeting from an indiginous native I met along the route online, or download it by subscribing to the all-new adrianwarnock.com podcast.

Lambs, snow, mountains, and streams. It sure beats sitting nose-to-bumper in London traffic!

This was a truly awesome journey, which I made to the accompaniment of Handel's Messiah. Somehow the music seemed suitably grand and majestic for the scenery.

Amazingly, I had my first sighting of sheep at the very same moment that "Behold the Lamb of God" began. A lump appeared in my throat. Somehow the baby lambs looked so innocent. How amazing that the innocent Lamb of God would willingly die for me!

I can hardly believe it! New Word Alive is suddenly no longer a far off event to which we can look forward, but is now upon us. By the time you read this, all the preparations will have been made and the long car journeys completed. Usually at a conference like this there are two groups of attenders—old hands who feel like they are part of the furniture, and the newbies. This time we are all first-timers since, while New Word Alive has roots in what has gone before, it truly is a new beginning.

We are surely in for a treat. We are fortunate to be looking forward to teaching from John Piper, Don Carson, and others, and our worship times promise to be God-intoxicated. As I think about this event, there is a strong sense in my heart that Christians from a broad spectrum of church backgrounds are being called together for a purpose. We are here for Jesus. We are here to celebrate him and renew our devotion to him. We are here to learn. And we are here to form bonds of fellowship and unity that transcend any differences we may have.

I have always loved conferences, and certain moments in the past have almost felt like a glimpse of heaven. If you are looking for an objective, dispassionate commentary on this event you won't find it here. Instead, I hope you will join me in celebrating what God will do among us. I'd love to receive e-mails during or after the event sharing what it has meant to you, and I may anonymously publish some of them. Do join me in praying that this will be not just another conference, but a turning point in the lives of many of the attendees and the churches they represent. The United Kingdom needs to be re-evangelized. Surely that can only happen when Christians are taught God’s Word in such a way that it thrills them so much that they want to share it with others. I am confident that this week will be one such opportunity.

I will be writing full reports of the events surrounding New Word Alive all week. I will also be recording live video interviews with Terry Virgo, Don Carson, and John Piper, which will be available here after the event. If you are reading this at the conference do say hi if you see me!