Before going on a summer break, I ended with a post which expresses clearly the driving passion behind my life—I DON'T WANT BALANCE, I WANT IT ALL!

Other than that, and the posts on the atonement I listed in yesterday's review, July was totally dominated (and rightly so) by Together On a Mission. This conference is a phenomena that you really ought to experience at least once in your life. The fact that next year we will have Mark Driscoll here in the UK as the main speaker is just one reason to come. There are many, many more! Here are all my posts from this amazing conference and the events surrounding it:

• TOAM07 - Quotable Quotes


• TOAM07 - Pedro Reflects


• TOAM07 - Many More MP3s Now Available FREE


• TOAM07 - Session 1: Stephen Van Rhyn on Exodus 32


• Andrew Fountain Interviews Adrian Warnock


• TOAM07 - Conference Video


• TOAM07 - Final Thoughts Around the Blogosphere


• TOAM07 - FREE Audio Available and a Video Introduction


• TOAM07 - Interview with Rob Rufus


• TOAM07 - Session 9: Terry Virgo on the Sin of Achan


• TOAM07 - Seminar: Sam Poe and Guy Miller - Prophecy: The Battle for Team


• TOAM07 - Video of Prayer Giving and Worship


• TOAM07 - Prophecy From Smith Wigglesworth


• TOAM07 - Interview with John Lanferman


• TOAM07 - Session 8: Rob Rufus on the Glory of God


• TOAM07 - Session 7: David Stroud on the Identity Markers of Newfrontiers


• TOAM07 - Seminar: Guy Miller and Julian Adams On Prophesying in Power


• TOAM07 - Interview With Tom Shaw: Leader of Mobilise


• TOAM07 - Session 2: Rob Rufus


• TOAM07 - Session 6: Dave Devenish on World Mission


• TOAM07 - Session 5: Rob Rufus on Faith and Healing


• TOAM07 - Session 4: P-J Smyth


• TOAM07 - Updates From the Blogosphere


• TOAM07 - Live-Blogging From Andrew Fountain


• Partying For Jesus


• George Whitefield's Final Resting Place and the Lewis Revival


• TOAM07- Introducing Pedro Anosike


• Newfrontiers - A Family Of Churches Together On A Mission


• Terry Virgo On Apostles Today

In August I also did a mini-series of quotes on the Calvinistic doctrines, otherwise known as TULIP—just in case people thought I was just some kind of wacky charismaniac. The posts were:

• Will I Make It Until the End? The Perseverance of the Saints


• The Unstoppable Saviour - Irresistible Grace


• Limited/Unlimited Atonement - Just Who Did Jesus Die For?


• Credit God, Blame Man, Or Why Double Predestination is Error - Charles Simeon


• How Total Depravity Helps Your Marriage

Another really interesting thing happened during the "silly season" of August. All the big guns got involved with a big debate with each other about baptism. It was a historic first and of great interest to the rest of us who did not dare to express an opinion! I provided excerpts of all the key posts as follows:

• Why Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Church Membership Differences Exist


• Massive Collection of MP3 Messages Made Free


• Lig Duncan On the Great Baptism, Church Membership, and Lord's Supper Debate


• "Lig Duncan Baptized as a Believer," Reveals Justin Taylor


• Sam Storms Feels Mark Dever is Confusing on the Lord's Supper


• Wayne Grudem Says Sam Storms is Right About the Lord's Supper


• Sam Storms, John Piper, and John Bunyan vs. Wayne Grudem, Al Mohler, and Mark Dever


• Baptist and PCA Agreements About Baptism


• Lig Duncan Speaks Up for Paedobaptists


• The Pipers Respond to Dever in the Baptism Debate


• John Bunyan and the Grudem & Dever vs Piper Baptism Debate


• Mark Dever Joins the Grudem vs Piper Baptism Debate


• Wayne Grudem Replies to John Piper On Baptism


• John Piper Disagrees With Wayne Grudem Over Baptism Graciously


• Wayne Grudem Changes His Mind on Baptism

Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus on How To Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we've never said, "We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!"—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same"—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and "cross pollinate." It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we finished by talking a bit about the network of churches of which he is a part. We ended with Rob speaking about a team of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/ teachers. Today we begin by asking Rob what he means by “apostles.”

For more information about the concept of apostles today, see my post "apostles are meant for today," the section of my interview with the leader of Newfrontiers which asks what Terry Virgo means by apostles today. For a response to our view from someone who respectfully disagrees, see when I ask Wayne Grudem about apostles today. Interestingly, some respected cessationists such as Liam Goligher argue that we need something similar to apostles, although presumably he would be less happy with calling them that. You will notice that I have used the word "apostles" with a small "a," even when that is grammatically incorrect. That is because we like to distinguish between the original "Apostles," who were in certain important ways unique, and other "apostles."

Adrian
You used that word “apostolic,” and I’m very aware that some of my readers will wonder, “What do you mean by that?” Can you explain your perspective of what that means?

Rob Rufus
Yes, and I think that is a very good question, because people are asking that, and it really is something people want to have clarity on. Often people think apostles are those who write Scripture, and that if we’re claiming we’ve got apostles today, we claim that the canon of Scripture’s not closed. But as we know, it IS closed, and that [New Testament] Scripture was written only by apostles in the first century. So we have pre-ascension apostles in the Bible and post-ascension apostles. Anyone who believes the Bible is God’s inspired Word will realize there must be apostles around today—they’re not pre-ascension apostles. The pre-ascension apostles are the twelve apostles of the Lamb that were called primarily to be witnesses to the baptism of Jesus, his life, his resurrection. But after Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended on high (Ephesians 4) he gave some to be apostles. So there are post-ascension apostles as well, and he says they will be in the earth until the Church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ. We know the Church is not at the full measure of the stature of Christ currently, so we will need apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the equipping of the believers, the saints, for the work of the ministry until we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God and to the full measure of the stature of Christ. So apostles need to be “until.” That word “until” offers the key word.

Adrian
Yes, very good. I think it’s Matthew Henry who looks at that passage and says something like, “These gifts (or rather some of them) will continue until the end.” It’s an interesting approach, I guess. If the apostles stop, why doesn’t the pastor stop?

Rob Rufus
Exactly! Exactly!

Tope
Yes, absolutely. I think you put it very, very well, and in a very helpful way because, certainly I know that for us, just working as we see the Bible order these things functioning together with apostles in the midst and all the other gifts, it’s been an incredible help. Near the end, it does say he gives these as gifts. He must know that we need these gifts. There’s something very powerful there. Every time we align ourselves with the biblical order that God has put in place, goodness and blessing come out the other end. So we’re all learning this.

Rob Rufus
Very good, Tope! I agree. I agree. I think when people hear of apostles, they kind of think of some sort of hierarchy and almost a controlling dictator-type where apostles are self-appointed and really think they are the big bosses of the church, you know, but actually Paul says, “We, the apostles, come at the end of the line.” There is nothing dictatorial, although Paul was incredibly anointed in such power and theology and revelation, he came amongst the churches like a father—he said almost like a nursing mother to the Thessalonians. And he speaks about of his affection for them and his friendship for them, and the care for the churches. So there is a hierarchy there. But Paul wouldn’t even put the word “apostle” in front of his name. He always put it behind his name: “Paul, called to be an apostle.” He is saying “apostle” is not my title, it’s my job description. So you’ll never see the word “apostle” in front of Paul’s name, or any of the guy’s names. Even at home, I like to say to people, “Look, I’m Rob, called to be a pastor to you.” Pastor is my job description; it’s not my title. People say, “I’ve got to call you “Pastor Rob” because that’s a sign of respect.” And I say, “Well, then, I’ve got to call you Mechanic Henry. Or Housewife Jill." I don’t show you respect by calling your job description as your title. I think every sincere person who loves the Scriptures—we need to say the Bible plus nothing, the Bible minus nothing—and we build our theology, our church practice—not only our doctrine of Hebrews 6: faith, repentance, you know, all of the doctrine. But the government, the way church is governed, needs to come back to Scripture as well.

Adrian
Yes, and I think that’s so right. It seems like, I guess it’s almost like we have blind spots—where we want the Bible up to this point, but no further. I guess church history is a bit like that—you look back in church history and you see some of these guys in the past, and you think, “How could you see so much great stuff and not this?!”

Rob Rufus
Yes! Very good! Yes! Yes!

Tope
I think the real enemy just tries to blind us and stop us from seeing certain things and living in the good of certain things. But God is still on the throne and seeking to bring recovery to everything.

When you talk about Paul there, and his movement in church planting—you’ve moved now from South Africa and you find yourself . . . where do you find yourself these days? (Laughter)

Rob Rufus
Well, we planted a church in South Africa and led it for twelve years, handed it over, and then we re-located to Australia to help Dudley, who started the NCMI family of churches and apostolic team. We worked with him there for thirteen years. He actually handed the church over to me and he headed to the United States for awhile—for a number of years—so I led that church for seven years and then handed the church over to Tyrone Daniel, who is Dudley’s son. And then for three years we traveled full-time internationally equipping and training churches in evangelism, and signs and wonders, and doing crusades around the world. And then God spoke very clearly and said, “I want you to go plant a church in Hong Kong,”—which was a real challenge to me because I don’t speak Cantonese or Putonghua, which is Mandarin. But we very clearly heard the call to go. So we started with five people in Hong Kong—no one knew us, knew our history! But God has blessed us here. In three years we have seen local Chinese people saved and added, so we are enjoying it and beginning to move into the China mainland as well and help plant churches in the mainland.

Adrian
Praise God! That’s really great. So, within your family of churches, is that quite an unusual thing to go church planting? I mean, do you just have a few churches or what?

Rob Rufus
We’ve been going from probably the mid-80’s, so it is just over twenty years, and a number of guys and girls together on teams are relocating, planting churches internationally. And more and more we do want it to have a total indigenous flavour. We don’t want it to be—we’re not exporting South African culture that’s for sure! We want it to be Kingdom culture, so when the culture of the country we go to is consistent with the Kingdom culture, those elements of the culture, we say let’s celebrate that. But where the culture contradicts the culture of the Kingdom, then the Christians need to make the adjustments to conform to the culture of the Kingdom. So, yeah, there is that spearheading—more and more people going into different nations and planting, but we also kind of plant and parent. There are churches out there going—we really need to be connected with an apostolic team that can help us build foundation into the life of our churches We never own those churches, but work as friends with those churches through the invitation of the leaders— only through invitation of the leaders. There is no headquarters that says, “We own you and you’re just another statistic. If you don’t line up with us, then we’ll take your building, kick you out”—none of that! We don’t own any buildings. The local church is the highest governing authority; they own their buildings. We build friendship with them and relationship, so we also have had, over those twenty years, probably (we don’t know, you gotta be careful) I’m going to say some thousands of churches, but that represents throughout most of Africa, we have churches. In one year we had 500 churches planted in Malawi alone, but it just happens in Africa. It just happens. But in the Western world, no, we don’t have thousands; we’re talking hundreds in the Western world.

Continued in part 5 . . .

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we focused on Word and Spirit. Today I begin by asking Rob what steps readers who are intrigued by the charismatic experience should take.

Adrian
One of the things I find is that quite a few of the readers of my blog out there—they love the Word, they are Reformed folk—but they are a little bit bemused to discover that there are a ton of us [charismatics] who love the Word in the same way. Actually, a lot of them are quite drawn in, but they just don’t know quite how to make that connection. Perhaps they don’t live in a town where there’s a group they can go to. Maybe they’ve even been burnt by some of these “charismaniacs” we’ve talked about. What would you say to them? They’re sitting at home and are a bit intrigued, a bit fascinated. They want more, but know they haven’t really connected with the Spirit in that way.

Rob Rufus
Yes. Well, I would say—stay with the Scriptures. Never ever dilute or compromise your love for the Word of God! That is our foundation; that’s the bedrock. Then I would just invite the Holy Spirit to come, the Spirit of truth, because he breathed the Scriptures! They are God-breathed by the Spirit himself. Ask the Holy Spirit to come and just touch you and begin to lead you. And He will, because he really is faithful and wonderful. And then with technology today, this access to speakers around the world like the New Frontiers guys who talk about the Holy Spirit, but from a wonderful biblical place. I mean, I don’t think this fear today that the counterfeit, that the devil—and [the Bible] does warn in the last days there will be counterfeit signs, wonders, and miracles—but it doesn’t say that the ONLY signs, wonders, and miracles in the last day will be counterfeit. So if there is counterfeit, it means that the genuine will be there, and we need to find the genuine. We really need to find the genuine.

Adrian
Thanks for that. Just going back a minute then. There you were, coming—Calvinistic, charismatic, or if you prefer, Reformed Charismatic. (I always think the term “reformed charismatic” is funny because it makes it sound like we’re kind of an ex-charismatic group, doesn’t it?) (Section unclear because of loud laughter.) But you obviously did become part of a family of churches—you’re not part of New Frontiers, but you’re part of something—I think it’s New Covenant Ministries? Have I got that right?

Rob Rufus
Yes, New Covenant Ministries International.

Adrian
And I guess that’s a fairly similar group of churches to New Frontiers? Is that right? That’s my understanding.

Rob Rufus
Yes, very similar. We’ve got so much that is so close. Our DNA is so similar that I feel like I’m at home. I’ve got to realize, okay, yeah, I’m part of the family, you know. It just feels so similar.

Adrian
So, how did New Covenant Ministries International come about? Tell us a little bit about the history of that.

Rob Rufus
Sure. It was back in the early 1980’s when God was really moving in ways, I think, across the world, and particularly in South Africa (we were based in South Africa). My friend who actually mentored me, and fathered and birthed NCMI—his church grew explosively. And whatever happens, you know, whenever you have some success, pastors around the country want you to come and tell them about it.

Adrian
So who was that? What was his name?

Rob Rufus
It’s Dudley Daniel. He started traveling around South Africa and teaching about what made his church grow. Then God spoke to him one day on the plane and said, “It’s wonderful what you’re doing—you’re blessing pastors and that, but do you want to spend the rest of your life just blessing, or do you also want to help pastors build the Church?” Because blessings are short-lived, but if you build well, you can sustain the blessing. And God began to speak to Dudley about finding biblical patterns—what are the biblical wineskins? How were churches really governed in the New Testament? He began to see that there were some traditions that we had inherited that were not in line with Scripture, done by very sincere, good leaders. So he began to relate this to some friends. He threw his home open on a Monday, and pastors that were alone, looking for friendship, started coming and relating. And out of that came a kind of a motto that we developed: “Friendship before function.” We have a function into the earth, but we want to be friends; we want to do it with friends relationally, like Jesus did with his guys, his friends. (Too much laughter to hear what is being said here.) God showed us that we are the offspring of Abraham, and that we are (unclear) forces—we’re the heirs of the world. And that from the seed of Abraham God wanted to make the blessing to all nations! So the Great Commission really just complements the oath God took to Abraham—God took an oath that all nations would be blessed. When you take an oath, it’s—what’s the word I want to say?

Tope
Binding?

Rob Rufus
Yeah, binding. So God bound himself to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham. So if the Church balks on that, or hinders it, or stands against it, then God will precipitate a crisis, like he did with Jonah to get the Gospel to Nineveh. So we realized that God was calling us to go to the nations, and we built—with a national team of friends, we developed a mixture of prophetic, apostolic evangelists, teachers, pastors, etc.

Continued in part 4 . . .

As we drew to the close of part one of this interview with Rob Rufus we were emphasizing the need for charismatics to continue to value the Bible. Today we begin with a question my pastor, Tope Koleoso, asked. This is a lightly edited transcript of what was actually said.

Tope
I’ve got to say, I agree with you. Definitely for me in listening to all the sessions that you did, and for us as a church, having taken so many to this conference, and also as a pastor, having the privilege of speaking with other pastors—the response that I’ve been hearing back, certainly from my own perspective, has been that in the talks there has been a depth of theology, not just the push of an experience; there has been this depth of theology as the verses and the references have come out, but you have also told us of the experiences—what this would look like and what God can do. And beyond you describing this, we also saw what God did among us. So those two sides then—the Word and the Spirit—I would say we saw that, but I would say we also saw—I could put it this way—the Lion and the Lamb. There was a real confidence in the way I thought the talks came across, but also the gentility of getting to know the Person of the Holy Spirit. And I wondered—is this something that you’ve always had? Is it a style of preaching that you developed or what?

Rob Rufus
That’s an outstanding question, Tope. As I mentioned in the conference, before I became a Christian I was a Hare Krishna. I was practicing strict Hinduism very aesthetically. One of the things that attracted me to Christianity was that when I went to a meeting where the power of God was being manifested—where cripples were walking and deaf ears were opening and the power of God was there—it made me realize that Christianity can never be reduced just to a philosophy, but it has to declare that Jesus is alive; He is a risen living Saviour. So I came into the kingdom of heaven through seeing the supernatural—I was birthed in the miraculous. But then I had mentors that loved the Scriptures as well. We were kind of like charismatic Calvinists, in other words we had reformed theology of the sovereignty of God and the attributes of God and the awesomeness and the transcendence of God and the love for Scripture. But along with that was this recognition that Paul, one of the greatest apostles and one of the greatest theologians you could ever imagine—raised the dead. He moved in signs and wonders, the supernatural. So I think it’s fraudulent to say we are walking in a New Testament apostolic life if all we are is into the Spirit because that gets quite unusual and flaky and unhealthy after awhile. Or it’s fraudulent to say, “I’m apostolic; I’m into the Word of God, but we don’t have a demonstration of power. Paul had both, and I think that’s what good theology is. I mean, Jesus was the theologian of theologians, and he said to someone—you’re wrong because you don’t know the Scriptures AND the power of God. So he married the Word of God and the Scriptures together.

Adrian
Very good! Very good! So for you, growing up into that whole kind of charismatic Calvinist thing, you sort of laughed when you said it. Did you feel like you were a bit of an oddity? Were you aware there were others out there like that? Or was there just a small group of you and you felt a bit weird? Because that was our experience!

Rob Rufus
Adrian, that’s exactly how we felt! I got saved in 1977, I think, so it was the tail end of the hippie movement. We all had long hair and all of that stuff, and yet with the gifts of the Spirit in operation, we would do expository preaching right through the Bible. We would study books at a time—go through the book of Hebrews chapter by chapter.

Adrian
So your preaching wasn’t always like it was this week?

Rob Rufus
(Loud laughter) Of course not! I was inducted into Christianity through expository preaching, and that wasn’t me; it was my mentor.

Adrian
So you do that kind of expository preaching yourself?

Rob Rufus
I do occasionally. I have been in the church plant in Hong Kong for three years and I haven’t done a book yet in expository form. But we will. That is something I do. But in the middle of all that expository teaching, there were gifts of the Spirit—very passionate outreach and evangelism in the streets. So reformed denominations for whom I have great respect (I really do) who love the Scriptures—they couldn’t quite work us out. We were a bit of a strange case! We were charismatic Calvinists. And yet I feel like in today’s world, I think what’s happening is that a lot of committed evangelical people who love Jesus, who love the Scriptures, are suddenly to their relief, finding out that people who are full of the Spirit and know the supernatural power of God love the Scriptures as well. And I believe it’s giving them a sense that a bridging is taking place. I think, too, that those people who are moving in the power of God and love the Scriptures—we need to be humble and realize that evangelicals have a rich legacy that we can learn from, and I think we can enrich each other.

Continued in part 3 . . .

A few months ago it was my privilege to interview Rob Rufus. The audio version of that interview is available online, but thanks to two readers (Dan Bowden and a friend of Andrew Fountain) who both sent me transcripts of the MP3 lately, I am now able to publish the text version. It has only been lightly edited, so please do forgive us any grammatical errors that come from this being a conversation rather than careful writing. If you want to listen to the interview, the MP3 is available to download on the original post.

Adrian
The Together on a Mission conference has just ended, but I’m here, together with my pastor, Tope, and we’re here with Rob Rufus. Rob is going to talk to us a little bit about how the conference has been for him, and tell us a little bit more about his own church and his own family of churches, and just really share with us about that. So he’s kindly agreed to sit down—he’s probably a bit tired—but we’re going to have a good time, hopefully, this afternoon. So, Rob, first of all, how has this conference been for you?

Rob Rufus
I think it’s been very staggering and astonishing in a delightful way because what I experienced here was almost like the reward of the fruit of a number of years of New Frontiers preparing themselves, building a good wineskin. And by “wineskin” I mean the kind of authority structures we build the church with—biblical values and biblical vision. We are now positioned to really see God come in an amazing way. So I felt there was such a liberty and an openness to God’s visitation, to the supernatural of God, and I think a lot of that’s got to do with the understanding that the churches have on the theology of grace—the understanding of grace—and the security that we have in Christ. So, it’s been an incredibly enlarging time here; just the spirit of faith among the people, the sense of a global vision, and yet doing it together as a team, doing it together in a sense of partnership. So, for me, the overall sense of the ethos and the atmosphere was one of a group of people very zealous, very passionate, full of vision, yet who haven’t kissed their brains goodbye, well-grounded in good theology, sound doctrine, open to the power of the Holy Spirit, and real people who are really friendly with one another and enjoy one another’s company, and that’s been a delight.

Adrian
Excellent! Yeah, and it’s been great. Obviously, one of the features of this conference has been your own preaching, Rob. I just wonder for those who have not been at the conference, and perhaps have been following the blogs—how would you summarize your key message, just in a couple of sentences, of this conference—what you’d like people to take away, because, to be honest, taking notes hasn’t been that easy! (Loud laughter) Well, you could say that!

Rob Rufus
Yes, absolutely! I mean, I’m the worst person for writing notes myself, and then, of course, for people to be able to pick up notes, because I tend to be more spontaneous and impromptu. Probably what I’d like people to primarily take away in a few sentences is that, of course, God is turning up the supernatural—the volume of the demonstration of his power—not just for the sake of sensationalism for us to find ourselves popular or famous because of that, but because he wants to be glorified in the world, he wants to get the world’s attention. The primary essence I would like people to take away is that we don’t seek primarily the power of God, but we seek the person of God. We seek who he is, his glory. Because his power is what he does, but his glory and his presence is who he is, and that’s the only thing that will fulfill people—to know him personally. That sense of intimacy is such a delight; it gives us that fulfillment. Out of that he hides his power within his presence so you can live a supernatural life in a natural way because you’re not having to fast forty days to get the power—you can just walk with the person of God in intimacy and he releases his power out of that relationship with himself.

Adrian
Yes. I guess that some Christians sitting at home listening to this—I mean, I get readers on my blog from all kinds of different backgrounds—they’re going to listen to that and think, “What is this guy talking about? A relationship with God? I thought we just had a relationship with a Book!” What would you say to those kinds of people?

Rob Rufus
Well, it’s like—when I met my wife for the first time I was at university so I couldn’t spend time with her because the university was in a different city. So during the first six months, I could only see her every second or third weekend. We corresponded in those days—it was a long enough time ago it was by letters, not e-mails!—(loud laughter) and although her letters were perfumed and I loved reading her letters, I didn’t have a love relationship primarily with her letters, but with the author of the letters. So I longed to get to see the person who was writing the letter and meet her. So the Bible is, in a sense, perfumed with the presence of God—it’s God-breathed; it’s really his love letter to us. It’s an introduction for us to get to know the Author of the Book. That’s the delight!

Adrian
Yes, very good! So you are not one of those “charismaniacs” who want to throw out the Bible then, Rob?

Rob Rufus
Absolutely not, Adrian! That, I think, is the tragedy. Sadly the charismatics or Pentecostals (to some degree, not all!) have been known as a people who are kind of going on a binge of subjectivity. It’s all self-indulgent. You have got to have theological references to make sure that the supernatural experiences you are having are authentic because we do have the counterfeit in the world today; we do have deception in the world today. The Bible is the foundation that authenticates that we are having legitimate miraculous encounters with God.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Observant readers of my blog will have noticed that I didn't post any larger photos of Rob Rufus when I spoke about Together On A Mission and interviewed Rob Rufus. One reason for this was that the snapshots I took while we were together were ruined in my hurry as I had the camera on the wrong setting. As a result the color was all wrong and I thought they were beyond salvation.

Well, my MacBook and the wonderful iPhoto software came to the rescue. I have never been able to understand photography software (although Picasa from google was reasonably easy) and so was thrilled to see Tamasin and Henry master it in no time. They took one of the following two photos each and were able to repair them admirably. At moments like this a father is proud of his kids and a relatively new MacBook owner is proud of his laptop!

Pentecostal/Charismatic Post-It Notes has put together a page of short quotes from last week's conference. Here are a few that stood out to me from his longer list:

• "For many of us we don’t flow in the prophetic because we don’t understand our sonship. We can read many books, but if we don’t get it settled that we are sons, then we will live as orphans for the rest of [our lives] waiting for the command of God rather than the heart of God. The prophetic is not about just hearing words, but about an encounter with a real Person." (Julian Adams)
  
  
• "It is ludicrous to believe in an intellectual way that Jesus Christ is raised from the dead alone — if he's alive, then he will speak and we will hear! He will act and we will see!" (Rob Rufus)
  
  
• "The true prophetic sees the future and brings the future into the now." (Rob Rufus)
  
  
• "It is ridiculous to try and fulfill a biblical vision without apostles and prophets!" (David Stroud)
  

My buddy, Pedro, kindly helped us with some of the live-blogging, and shared my hotel room. Here are his reflections on the conference.

"Attending the Together on A Mission conference was, to me, a carefully orchestrated privilege from God that I will cherish all my days.

Having so many people from 53 nations and various walks of life coming together all for the sake of Christ was awesome and very encouraging — indeed Jesus is alive. I have attended many conferences that have blessed me and have helped shape me, but TOAM07 was, for me, a command to arise and dig into those things that have been prepared for me from the foundation of the earth and that I will need to do by the grace of God.

During the worship, I stopped a couple of times to observe the lifted hands, the sea of heads, the expression of overwhelming joy on the faces of the people, and the dancing like David, king of Israel — a man after the heart of God — and I couldn’t [help] but see God in the midst of his people (2 Samuel 6:14). I danced like I have never danced. The spirit of worship was evidently upon the musicians and the choice of songs.

I traveled with two members of Jubilee Church, and the brotherly spirit was excellent. I shared a room with my dear friend, Adrian, and that was another conference of its own — it’s wonderful when God binds people together. How good it is when brethren dwell together in unity; it's like the anointing oil that runs down the beard of Aaron (Psalm 133). Enjoying sharing from the Word and our different experiences, we found ourselves going to bed when [other] people were planning to rise, yet we got to the conference strong and alert for Adrian to still conduct his interviews, as well as blog the conference.

Among other things I learned was to live one day at a time. This calls for faith and is needed now and in the days ahead more than ever before. The Word of God has ever been true, is true now, and will be true for all generations. Without a shadow of doubt, perilous times are coming, and are at hand. It is expedient that those who name the name of the Lord cry out till Jerusalem be made a praise on the earth, and reach out with compassion to those who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ — the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world — the only name given by which men can be saved.

Before leaving the conference, I had direction on how to do a couple of things differently in a very practical way, and truth be told, I believe I have received grace for the task because the teaching that came from those that ministered came with a lot of power (Acts 4:33). I feel very connected to the apostolic vision that the Scriptures set out clearly, and which Newfrontiers has received and is working tirelessly to fulfill.

In drawing to a close, I strongly believe that no one can fully comprehend the depth and breadth of what God in his infinite wisdom has birthed through that conference, but if Jesus tarries his coming much longer, the decade ahead will see, enjoy, and praise God for what many will be able to trace back to this conference."

I am thrilled to report that the majority of the main sessions, the Mobilise main sessions, and quite a few of the seminars and training tracks are now available to download for free.

Get over there now and start downloading, and keep checking back there for more as they continue to upload them!

Stephen van Rhyn
Stephen is the Lead Elder of Jubilee Community Church in Cape Town, South Africa. He is married to Anna and has two young boys, Josh and Ben, and one daughter, Bethany.

See also Andrew Fountain's notes from this talk, Leadership Lessons From Moses and Aaron.

Together On a Mission 2007 continues to have an impact as the talks are beginning to be made available on the Net. This talk from Stephen Van Rhyn (otherwise known as 'the other guy'!) is one of the first two made available online for which you can order a CD.

He took us to Exodus 32. Stephen began by explaining that this story teaches us that leadership matters. There was a direct correlation between the spiritual health of the leader and the spiritual health of the people. What we do matters. When Jesus said the crowds were harassed and helpless, they had experienced tremendous healing where ALL were being healed. This was because the people had no leader. There is no leadership responsibility, however small, that is insignificant. The kingdom of God advances on delegated leadership.

The church advances as it multiplies leadership. We are called to plant growing vibrant churches, and if we are to achieve this, great senior leadership is not enough. We need depth — great leadership at every level.

Aaron was seduced by his own success. We need to remember that we all need help. Aaron forgot that he was there because of Moses, and fell into pride and deception. Proverbs 16:18 warns against pride.

Aaron abdicated his leadership. He tried to give the people what they wanted rather than seeking God. The people are leading and he simply implements the desires of the people. This attitude pervades the Church today — give people what they want, take a survey, etc. We should be courageously leading the people to do what is right in the sight of God. We need to love people enough to give them God's best even if that is not popular. We cannot simply aim to entertain people and give them what they want!

Aaron called for God's people to sacrifice the wrong things. They weren't just sacrificing jewelery; they were sacrificing the Word of God and the presence of God. The ten commandments had already been given.

The Church is often reduced to an echo of the culture rather than a prophetic voice. We should be a thermostat, not a thermometer. Matthew Paris seems to understand the Bible more than many in the Church! We need to be those who have a submissive attitude to the Bible.

The presence of God was to be withdrawn. Moses wouldn't settle for an angel. Christian maturity is an increased desperation for the presence of God. The gifts can mess up our carefully constructed worship services.

Stephen contrasts Aaron's response to being found out in sin with David's response. God can deal with sin, but wants us to own up to it. We cannot fool God. When we are honest we find a God who is slow to anger and delights to forgive us. We need to admit what we have done wrong to the God of grace.

Moses' response indicated five things from which we can learn:

1. Moses sought God.
   
   
2. He wasn't content with personal success at the expense of corporate failure — he didn't take the option of destroying the people of God.
   
   
3. He didn't stay static in the face of evil. One man can radically change a nation.
   
   
4. Moses called Aaron to account. Senior leadership cannot have an “anything goes” attitude. This saved him from destruction.
   
   
5. Moses led and lived for the glory of God.

This past weekend I had the joy of having Mr. and Mrs. Fountain stay in our family home. We had a lovely time with them, and it was an encourgaing time for all of us. We chatted for hours about our shared theology and blogging geekiness whilst Andree and Anne chatted about their shared interest in various crafts. We got to take them to Jubilee Church, and took Anne to some of the places her family came from.

Perhaps the greatest surprise to me was when Andrew said he wanted to turn the tables on me and interview me, and also Andree (for the first few minutes at least, before she slipped away!)

Visit Andrew Fountain interviews Adrian Warnock to listen to the interview.

Andrew also took a few shots of Andree and me:

The following video clip was shown on the last morning of the conference and gives a more professional overview than my own amateur footage.

Here's a round-up of good posts from other bloggers on the Together for a Mission conference. These will give you an overall impression of their thoughts and reactions to the conference.

Links to Andrew Fountain's excellent brief notes on each talk have been added to my reports of the messages, and as mp3 downloads become available, links will also be provided to allow you to easily get to the audio of each talk. In addition to the sessions I have covered here on my blog, Andrew also wrote notes on the following main sessions and seminars:

• David Holden: The Holy Spirit and Your Church
  
  
• Rob Rufus: Five Ways of Increasing in the Spirit of Faith
  
  
• Terry Virgo: The Holy Spirit and Your Church - Baptism in the Spirit
  
  
• Terry Virgo: God is Turning a New Page for His People

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The Simple Pastor - Refreshed and Recharged

"It was a great time, I just so enjoyed worshipping God with thousands of others . . . . It was great to hear teaching that has equipped me as a church leader and to be caught up in a bigger vision of what God is doing around the world."

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Andrew Cottingham lists some of the highlights and statistics of the conference and says, "Many conferences exist for themselves, i.e. the better they are, the more people will attend the next one. This one exists for what happens back home."

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 1

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 2

Together in a Mission 07 — Part 3

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Dave Bish made a flying visit to the conference, and wrote a long article responding to my report of Dave Stroud's talk as follows:

"Maybe I don't hear more because I don't ask much. Surely it's not that hard to follow God's commands like 'earnestly desire prophecy'? If God offers detail, it'd be nice to have it. And we might not always hear right, but I think that's why in Acts 16 Luke adds i'we concluded'/i — which implies some measure of testing went on. On the frontline of mission, it's not like it's a tough one to work out. End result: they went and preached Christ. God wants to build his church. He will build his chruch. I want to be part of that. It's fair to say Together on a Mission has got me thinking. And it's got me believing."

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Delighted (Ed's Fallible Thoughts) reports:

"The Holy Spirit was there in power and moving in people, in me, in ways He hasn't done really before, which was very exciting."

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The Best is Yet to Come also has a series of posts on the conference. Here are links to each article:

On the Way to Glory!

The Weight of His Glory

We Must Have Spirit-Filled Churches

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Blaney Bible Blog responds to the conference as follows:

" . . . here is a group that is committed heart and soul to a vision of recovering New Testament Christianity in all its glory and establishing churches that embody this across the globe. Although they didn't quite say it, they almost said that their aim was to complete the Great Commission by themselves! What's more, if they had said it, I would have believed them! They are focused on establishing apostolic bases throughout the world; not just the planting of a church, but of a resource church that will be the fountain head of a network—churches that will plant churches that will plant churches . . . "

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What was YOUR reaction to being at the conference, or to reading these posts?