I had the pleasure of interviewing Stuart Townend today. Stuart is based in Church of Christ the King, a Newfrontiers church in Brighton, UK, which is also home to Phatfish, Paul Oakley, and Terry Virgo.

Here is an abridged and adapted version of that interview. The entire interview can be accessed at the end of this post and is well worth listening to in its entirety. Stuart was a joy to interview and clearly passionate about worship and doctrine.

Adrian
How are you finding the conference?

Stuart
It's great, so far. There has been a good response. The standard of teaching has been world-class.

Adrian
Do tell us a bit more about your song, In Christ Alone.

Stuart
It was the first song Keith Getty and I wrote together. Keith is a fantastic melody writer. It was his music that inspired me to take my lyric writing seriously and convey the truths of the Scriptures in a poetic way to help people retain the truth. I have been humbled to see how it has been used. I get more comments on that song than all the rest put together. It was a timely song, written around the time 9-11 shook our foundations. To be able to sing at that time “No scheme of man can pluck me from his hand” was important.

Adrian
What makes a worship song good?

Stuart
Having focused on the cross of Christ, it’s important to ask, “What does that mean for me? What's the foundation of life?” It’s not just, “How does it make me feel?" Rather, it should be—"What is the unchanging truth about my life based on the unchanging truth about God and what he has done? What has God said about me or us or the Church?” Those things are unchanging truths that don't depend on whether I am having a good time or a bad time. They are about me, but they are really about God and what God has done in me. Worship is not just about singing songs that make me feel better. In the middle of whatever I am facing, God is with me. Worship should be exciting, but founded on the truth of the gospel. Our feelings are a by-product of the glorious truth we are celebrating.

Adrian
Do you think there is still as much disagreement among Christians over music as there previously was?

Stuart
I don't think there is. It’s a shame that some think lively worship has to be the modern stuff. People have been getting excited for centuries. But songs that were divisive have now been embraced. There are, however, some churches out there who are singing songs that contain theology that they actually wouldn't preach.

Adrian
Indeed! In Christ Alone has also caused some controversy, hasn't it?

Stuart
Yes, some people breach copyright law by changing a particular line. Some people will not use the song. But the problem with that is that some people are saying we shouldn't preach or sing about a core element of the gospel. I cannot make sense of the whole Bible without the concept of wrath.

Listen to the full interview by subscribing to my new podcast or download it here. For more information, visit Stuart Townend's website or read the interview Newfrontiers Magazine Online did with him in October of 2007. You can also legally download music, lyrics, and mp3's from Stuart Townend at the Kingsway website

I have just been listening to a message by my pastor, Tope Koleoso, who was recorded at a recent conference on building a multicultural church. I have become so used to what God has been doing these past couple of years at Jubilee that I sometimes need to remind myself that genuinely racially integrated churches are actually far from common. We truly have a lot to be grateful for. I really think you may well enjoy listening to Tope on this subject. The message can be downloaded or you can listen to it right here:



Other talks from the same conference are also available, as is a series of talks on 'gracism' preached at another multicultural church in South London.

Tope is a dynamic speaker, and most of the time does not focus on racial issues, preferring to simply get on with preaching the Bible to a church which happens to have different nationalities attending. If you want to hear more of him, you can visit the website of the church I attend where you will also find sermons by others, including myself. Tope has also preached at a number of other churches, and some of them have put his messages online:

• Tope Koleoso at City Hope Church, Bermondsey—"Celebrating Diversity: Move on From Integrating Multiculture to Love and Acceptance," 10th February 2008.
  
  
• Tope Koleoso at Christ Church, London—"Regaining Refreshing (Acts 3)," 15th April 2007.
  
  
• Tope Koleoso at Church of Christ the King, Brighton—"Godliness is Profitable For All Time" and "Pursuing the Wonderful God," December 2006.

I can't offer two conferences for the price of one, but I can—in one post—discuss two conferences which, for all the similarities of their names, do have some important differences. For a start, they are on opposite sides of the Atlantic, so booking into the wrong one would be a significant logistical headache! I am quite sure, however, that many will cross the "pond" to attend one of what I am calling the "Together" conferences. In fact. they don't happen at the same time, so it is very possible for you to attend BOTH if you want to, as at least one blogger I know is considering!

Both conferences have one important thing in common—they are filling up FAST and expect to be sell-outs, having to turn people away. Hotel rooms are disappearing even more rapidly for both events. Since I have now firmly booked my own place on the second one (sadly I can't make the first), I feel safe to remind you, my readers, that it is time to MOVE QUICKLY!



TOGETHER FOR THE GOSPEL (T4G)
Tuesday April 15 - Thursday April 17, 2008
Kentucky International Convention Center, Louisville, KY
BOOK HERE
It doesn't seem possible that it is now almost two years since this conference first burst onto the international stage. Representing a relationship-based coming together of much of what is best in various different evangelical traditions, this conference models something we would all do well to learn from. Speakers for T4G are Ligon Duncan, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, Mark Dever, R. C. Sproul, Albert Mohler, John Piper and C. J. Mahaney.



TOGETHER ON A MISSION (TOAM)
Tuesday July 8 - Friday 11, 2008
Brighton Conference Centre, UK
BOOK HERE
TOAM is the international leaders conference for a worldwide family of approximately 600 churches, although it is open to anyone. There will be 5000 delegates gathering from some 50 nations. Less a conference, more a family reunion, TOAM has a very different feel from any other conference I have ever attended. This year Mark Driscoll will be the main visiting speaker. Speakers for TOAM are Terry Virgo, Mark Driscoll, Stephen Van Rhyn, Dave Stroud, David Devenish, P-J Smyth, Dave Holden, Guy Miller, Wendy Virgo, Mick Taylor, Roger Smith, Steve Oliver, Jeremy Simpkins, John Groves, Greg Haslam, John Hosier, and Ray Lowe

No. 7 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on November 26, 2005, and endeavored to explain that curious phenomenon—a charismatic Calvinist or "reformed charismatic." There was a time when we were considered an oddity and people doubted our existence. Now, at least in England, reformed charismatics are on the ascendancy and many Christians are intrigued by us.

With the resurgence of interest in things reformed and charismatic, I thought I'd post a bit on what I feel is a "reformed charismatic." Simply put, reformed charismatics are those people who are trying to foster a convergence by taking the best that is available from both charismatics and reformed people. If, like me, you are convinced of the following points, you might be a reformed charismatic:

• Mark Dever and Rick Warren both have useful things to say to the Church.
  
  
• C. J. Mahaney is an acceptable person to preach from a pulpit normally filled by John MacArthur.
  
  
• You like reading blogs by Tim Challies and Phil Johnson, but also by the pneuma bloggers.
  
  
• You like the Alpha Course, and enjoy reading Spurgeon and Piper.
  
  
• You just don't see why there is such anger between certain charismatics and some of their reformed brothers. At the same time you still believe that there really is a truth to discover.
  
  
• You are in a reformed church, but secretly long for more of an experience of God. You are in a charismatic church, but secretly enjoy listening to preaching and reading books that teach substantial theology.

In a sense reformed charismatics are occupying the center ground. Like "new Labor," they advocate a third way. It is really possible, they say, to pursue a solid biblical knowledge and sound doctrine while experiencing the presence and the power of God in a real way today. The Word and the Spirit are not in conflict, but rather work together to cause us to know God.

The charismatics believe in a God who is alive and acts today. We believe in a God who wants a personal relationship with his followers, who hears prayers, who reveals himself, who pours out his love into our hearts, and who never changes and is the same God of the Bible today. We believe that receiving the Holy Spirit is a conscious real experience. We believe that this experience of the Spirit is one of the major ways that God gives us assurance that we are saved.

The reformed believe in the solas of the reformation, and in the classical evangelical position on the gospel. We believe that man is so dead in his sin and facing the wrath of God that he requires a work that entirely originates in God to deal with it.

Read more . . . What is a Reformed Charismatic?

No 12 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on May 15, 2005, and examined the events surrounding and subsequent to what came to be known as "The Toronto Blessing."

I published this post from an article I had written many years prior to May of 2005. In some ways it was this article that first stirred the "writing bug" in me. I surveyed the historical events associated with "The Toronto Blessing," and also looked at some biblical and church history data. Some of my reformed friends may be uncomfortable with the fact that I am willing to see good in what happened. No doubt some of my charismatic friends will be unhappy with the fact that I also accept that unhelpful excesses occurred in some places.

In addition to the sections I have republished here ("An Outpouring of the Holy Spirit? What On Earth is Going On?" and the "Origins of the Movement"), I also trace its spread to the UK, similar phenomena in history, what our response should be to these phenomena, and how to test similar movements. You can read my thoughts on those issues by clicking here or on the link provided at the bottom of this post.

I thought I would share with you—for history's sake and in its entirety—an article I wrote almost eleven years ago about the so-called "Toronto Blessing."

An Outpouring of the Holy Spirit? What on Earth is Going On?

In the months following May 1994, there was a sudden wave of bizarre phenomena in many churches in the UK, USA, and elsewhere in the world from a wide variety of backgrounds. Since then, the city of Toronto, Canada, has become closely associated with these events. Much attention has been drawn to all of this in both the secular and Christian press.

Phenomena widely reported with these events included falling over, laughing, crying, shaking, peculiar movements, cries, roars, intoxicating joy, and incoordination. While a dramatic transformation in the life of many of the people affected by these phenomena was observed, a large number of conversions was not reported and most people did not call this a revival.

The falling may, on occasion, have been sudden and violent. I am unaware of any cases of injury resulting. Giddiness was sometimes reported prior to the fall. There usually was not a total loss of consciousness, and most were able to hear, although they might not respond. A feeling of detachment was common—hours could go by and seem like minutes. An apparent spastic or flaccid paralysis was often present in individuals affected. Many reported impressions and visions imparted to them while on the floor. Some felt as if they were physically pinned to the floor and felt quite unable to move.

Likewise, shaking and other apparently involuntary movements took a wide variety of forms. These had to be seen to be believed, but included repetitive leaping to a great height, a heightened physiological tremor, twitching, and being thrown as though hit by an electric charge.

All of the above phenomena occurred in combination with the same individual. They sometimes followed prayer, with laying on of hands, or began spontaneously during worship, preaching, or alone at home. People became so intoxicated with joy that they had to be carried to their cars. Some were carried out rigid, others staggered as though drunk. It was very difficult to observe all of this without wondering, "What on earth is going on?"

A pattern emerged from study of the spread of the these phenomena. People, and especially church leaders, flocked to the affected churches to investigate. Even the skeptical found themselves being affected, much to their surprise. Upon their return home, often before assimilating what had happened, they found similar events breaking out in their own churches. The briefest of statements about God doing strange new things might be followed by a request for any who would like a fresh touch from God to stand. Often at this point an entire congregation would stand to its feet, and following a short prayer, a sudden outbreak of the above phenomena occurred. Those affected might not have even heard of the specific phenomena that had occurred elsewhere!

Origins of the Movement

The center of much of this attention, with 20,000 to 30,000 visitors from around the world in the first six months of 1994, was a tiny building at the end of a runway in Canada where the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church (now Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship) was meeting. John Wimber was the unofficial leader of the Vineyard Movement, of which this church was a member. This was one of several groups of charismatic or "new" churches worldwide. The Vineyard Movement was strongest in the USA, but certainly had churches elsewhere, including London.

Although the controversial John Wimber had seen many of these reported phenomena on a smaller scale in his conferences, he seemed to have had little to do directly with the birth of this movement. Indeed, Mr. Wimber subsequently died.

The first place where these phenomena occurred in the intensity and extent now so well known was actually not Toronto, but in the USA. In 1989, South African evangelist, Rodney Howard-Browne, complained that his meeting was being ruined when many people fell off their seats and began laughing. He soon became convinced that God was to blame. These events followed Howard-Browne and persisted after he had left, spreading rapidly. In April 1993, during meetings in Florida which were attended by 10,000 people, waves of laughter affected the congregation. Subsequently, widespread attention was drawn to these events. Approximately 2,200 people were baptized in water, and 800 new members were added to the host church by the middle of 1994. Another church in the area, whose initially reluctant pastor was suddenly struck to the floor with laughter, reported that by the middle of 1994 the church had grown from 800 to 1,500.

As a result of this meeting, Howard-Browne was invited to preach to 4,000 students later that year. He reported, "One night I was preaching on hell ... [laughter] just hit the whole place. The more I told the people what hell was like, the more they laughed. When I gave an altar call, they came forward by the hundreds to be saved."

The interesting thing has been that far from dying down after this evangelist left town, the phenomena continued and spread. The movement did not appear to be centered in a man, and in terms of its spread to the UK, Howard-Browne played a very limited role.

Since 1991, there has also been a separate outbreak in Argentina, where the phenomena seemed to be associated with a full-scale revival. In November 1993, John Arnott, the pastor of the Toronto Vineyard Church, traveled to Argentina and the United States to see what was happening. He met with another Vineyard pastor, Randy Clark of St. Louis, who had been prayed for by Rodney Howard-Browne and subsequently experienced similar effects in his own church.

On the 20th of January 1994, a meeting with Randy Clark took place in the Toronto Vineyard and the phenomena broke out. Very soon, news spread and the people started coming to investigate. From this church, other Vineyard churches and many other groups were affected.

Read more . . . "The Toronto Blessing" - When The Church Seemed To Be Going Mad

No. 14 on the list of most-read posts on this blog appeared on June 28, 2007, and was the summary post of an interview with the father of the family of churches of which I am thrilled to be a part, and a man I respect like few others alive today. Terry Virgo is that rare true gift of God to the global Church, a man who will leave the worldwhile Church in a far better state than he found it. His influence extends far beyond the 500 churches which are a part of Newfrontiers to the many thousands of others who have been affected by his teaching.

If you want to keep in touch with Terry, please do add Terry Virgo's Blog to your reading list or keep visiting here, where his posts will appear in the Warnie Winners headline box from now on.

So far in this interview with Terry Virgo we have looked at his view of the wider church scene, the origins, and then the distinctives of Newfrontiers. Today we will examine his view of the future.

Terry, I would love to draw your attention now to the future. What do you think it holds for you and the family of churches you lead?

Within Newfrontiers it is essential that we prayerfully look for emerging apostles and not simply regional supervisors. I thank God for regional supervisors who help us to serve the Church, but it's essential that we make space for genuinely anointed apostles and let them find their own sphere. We must be flexible. I think that the Apostle Paul was called by God, developed his own apostolic sphere, and then received the right hand of fellowship from Peter and John who were Apostles before him. Paul came out of a different stable. He wasn't made an apostle by Peter and John; they acknowledged that he was one. We need to look for the same kind of development — we look for gifting and give it the right hand of fellowship rather than thinking that we can institutionally appoint people into that office.

How would that happen? How would you recognize that?

In South Africa the unexpected death of Simon Pettit, our senior leader, has forced the issue in an extraordinary way. God said to us that an oak tree had fallen, but not to be replaced by another one. Instead, saplings were growing and we were to discern who they were and encourage their growth. Now, what I have observed is that there are three or four guys who are gifted in raising up leaders, raising up churches, and overseeing churches. They have done it as a result of their own gifting. So, instead of trying to set up a South Africa structure, we aim to recognize gifting. So we want to say to different brothers, we see you emerging as apostles, we want to encourage you. But, we want to recognize that you have a gift rather than impose a structure on you.

I want to encourage those men to gather their own teams — to find their Timothys. We want to fan the flame of their gifting, exhort them to go for it, father them, but believe God for their apostolic gifting.

Historically, in what we call Newfrontiers, Terry Virgo was the only person regarded as an apostle since I fathered the movement and started the first churches. I was very reluctant to use the word at all for myself. People used to say to me, "Why don't you make other apostles?" I used to say, I don't know if I am one myself, let alone make anyone else one. We veered to the side of being very reluctant.

As years have gone by we have probably swung too much the other way. We have used the word apostolic as an adjective in a very misty way. We have almost drifted into calling regional leaders apostles. The reality is that regional structures are very helpful, but not every person we have asked to oversee a region demonstrates apostolic gifting. If you formalise regions, you are in great danger of institutionalising so-called apostles. That will never work.

You can just see how the whole bishop structure emerged, can't you?

Yes, and you also get to think of apostles as being responsible for regions, which is almost totally the opposite of what an apostle is. An apostle is a sent one. He is not a maxi-pastor; he has to have freedom to go as that's in his heart, and cannot be over-structured.

I don't want to leave behind a structure which is a shell that uses the labels, but has nothing truly apostolic happening. We have to try to prepare for the next generation. I am pushing late sixties now. I am not going on forever. These are huge issues for us at the moment which we talk a lot about. In recent years we have discussed the implications of my death or retirement. We didn't think Simon would die before me; it was a huge shock. What happened in South Africa has forced the issue for us and been instructive at a time when we are also talking about it theologically and theoretically.

You can never guarantee that you will be saved from institutionalism, but we must do everything in our power to avoid it.

Read more . . . Terry Virgo on the Future

No. 24 on the list of the most widely read posts among readers of my blog appeared on July 13, 2007, and provided an audio link to my interview with Rob Rufus.

Interviewing Rob at the end of the Together on a Mission 2007 Conference was memorable, and those who listened to the mp3 will know just how much laughter was a part of that conversation. In December 2007, the written transcript of this interview with Rob Rufus was published as a series on my blog. Any one of those segments can be read by clicking on the links here:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus: How to Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today
  
  
• How apostles Work Today

It was a real delight to sit with Rob Rufus and Tope Koleoso at the end of the conference for the following wide-ranging interview. I would strongly encourage you to listen to this, especially if you want to get more insight into what these apostolic families of churches look like in practice, or if you are just intrigued to learn more about the Holy Spirit.

You can download the mp3 or listen to it right here on the blog:

During the months of September and October, I spent a lot of time quoting from a book Justin Taylor produced—a lightly edited John Owen. These can all be read on the category page for posts labeled "John Owen." In November, I gave John Piper on N. T. Wright the same treatment.

I also wrote a post titled Blogging, Discernment, and a Book by Tim Challies which managed to provoke the Pyromaniacs, review Tim's book, and muse about the best approach to blogging for Christians—all in the same post! It was not long after that when I made the important decision to remove comments from this site because I just wasn't managing to find the time to moderate them properly. This was announced in Thanksgiving and Some Changes Around Here.

Terry Virgo hasn't found out and stopped me yet, but I managed to let everyone into the Secret of Newfrontiers—if you want to know what that is, you will have to read the post. I was also able to share an interview with a man who has a unique perspective on our movement, having been in it for decades before officially leaving, while remaining our very good friend. I am, of course, talking about Greg Haslam, who is currently occupying D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones' pulpit in Westminster Chapel, London.

It was very moving to be able to visit the Billy Graham Center in Wheaton, Illinois. I was also able to return to London in time to renew my acquaintance with Mark Dever, and to listen to him preach. Here are the posts:

• Theology for All — Lessons for the Future by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Lessons for the Present by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Lessons From the Past by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Mark Dever in the UK
• Theology for All — An Interview with Mark Dever

In November I met Mark Driscoll in the flesh for the first time and shared the following posts about the meeting and his sermons there, as well as mentioning a couple of key ones from his home church:

• Driscoll on the Defeat of Shame and the Scotland MP3s
• Mark Driscoll at MenMakers in Scotland
• Mark Driscoll Preaches on the Atonement in Edinburgh, Scotland
• Mark Driscoll Apologizes For Not Being Humble
• Mark Driscoll Firm, But Kind, About Joel Osteen on Prosperity Teaching

In December I posted probably my most political post so far—"Time to Put a Stop to Brown?" It is fair to say that I assumed people would understand that I believed that, for better or worse, it is God who has given us this leader at this time. I should not have assumed that, nor should I have neglected to remind all of us of the need to pray for him. With Brown seemingly helpless against Cameron's weekly accusations that the PM is dithering and indecisive, it sure looks like the leader of "The B Team" needs our prayers! For the sake of our nation, I hope something changes and soon.

My final interview of the year was actually a transcipt of an interview I had previously shared in audio form. The interviewee was Rob Rufus, and that was surely a good way to end what has been my most eventful year of blogging so far.

Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus on How To Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we've never said, "We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!"—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same"—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and "cross pollinate." It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we finished by talking a bit about the network of churches of which he is a part. We ended with Rob speaking about a team of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/ teachers. Today we begin by asking Rob what he means by “apostles.”

For more information about the concept of apostles today, see my post "apostles are meant for today," the section of my interview with the leader of Newfrontiers which asks what Terry Virgo means by apostles today. For a response to our view from someone who respectfully disagrees, see when I ask Wayne Grudem about apostles today. Interestingly, some respected cessationists such as Liam Goligher argue that we need something similar to apostles, although presumably he would be less happy with calling them that. You will notice that I have used the word "apostles" with a small "a," even when that is grammatically incorrect. That is because we like to distinguish between the original "Apostles," who were in certain important ways unique, and other "apostles."

Adrian
You used that word “apostolic,” and I’m very aware that some of my readers will wonder, “What do you mean by that?” Can you explain your perspective of what that means?

Rob Rufus
Yes, and I think that is a very good question, because people are asking that, and it really is something people want to have clarity on. Often people think apostles are those who write Scripture, and that if we’re claiming we’ve got apostles today, we claim that the canon of Scripture’s not closed. But as we know, it IS closed, and that [New Testament] Scripture was written only by apostles in the first century. So we have pre-ascension apostles in the Bible and post-ascension apostles. Anyone who believes the Bible is God’s inspired Word will realize there must be apostles around today—they’re not pre-ascension apostles. The pre-ascension apostles are the twelve apostles of the Lamb that were called primarily to be witnesses to the baptism of Jesus, his life, his resurrection. But after Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended on high (Ephesians 4) he gave some to be apostles. So there are post-ascension apostles as well, and he says they will be in the earth until the Church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ. We know the Church is not at the full measure of the stature of Christ currently, so we will need apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the equipping of the believers, the saints, for the work of the ministry until we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God and to the full measure of the stature of Christ. So apostles need to be “until.” That word “until” offers the key word.

Adrian
Yes, very good. I think it’s Matthew Henry who looks at that passage and says something like, “These gifts (or rather some of them) will continue until the end.” It’s an interesting approach, I guess. If the apostles stop, why doesn’t the pastor stop?

Rob Rufus
Exactly! Exactly!

Tope
Yes, absolutely. I think you put it very, very well, and in a very helpful way because, certainly I know that for us, just working as we see the Bible order these things functioning together with apostles in the midst and all the other gifts, it’s been an incredible help. Near the end, it does say he gives these as gifts. He must know that we need these gifts. There’s something very powerful there. Every time we align ourselves with the biblical order that God has put in place, goodness and blessing come out the other end. So we’re all learning this.

Rob Rufus
Very good, Tope! I agree. I agree. I think when people hear of apostles, they kind of think of some sort of hierarchy and almost a controlling dictator-type where apostles are self-appointed and really think they are the big bosses of the church, you know, but actually Paul says, “We, the apostles, come at the end of the line.” There is nothing dictatorial, although Paul was incredibly anointed in such power and theology and revelation, he came amongst the churches like a father—he said almost like a nursing mother to the Thessalonians. And he speaks about of his affection for them and his friendship for them, and the care for the churches. So there is a hierarchy there. But Paul wouldn’t even put the word “apostle” in front of his name. He always put it behind his name: “Paul, called to be an apostle.” He is saying “apostle” is not my title, it’s my job description. So you’ll never see the word “apostle” in front of Paul’s name, or any of the guy’s names. Even at home, I like to say to people, “Look, I’m Rob, called to be a pastor to you.” Pastor is my job description; it’s not my title. People say, “I’ve got to call you “Pastor Rob” because that’s a sign of respect.” And I say, “Well, then, I’ve got to call you Mechanic Henry. Or Housewife Jill." I don’t show you respect by calling your job description as your title. I think every sincere person who loves the Scriptures—we need to say the Bible plus nothing, the Bible minus nothing—and we build our theology, our church practice—not only our doctrine of Hebrews 6: faith, repentance, you know, all of the doctrine. But the government, the way church is governed, needs to come back to Scripture as well.

Adrian
Yes, and I think that’s so right. It seems like, I guess it’s almost like we have blind spots—where we want the Bible up to this point, but no further. I guess church history is a bit like that—you look back in church history and you see some of these guys in the past, and you think, “How could you see so much great stuff and not this?!”

Rob Rufus
Yes! Very good! Yes! Yes!

Tope
I think the real enemy just tries to blind us and stop us from seeing certain things and living in the good of certain things. But God is still on the throne and seeking to bring recovery to everything.

When you talk about Paul there, and his movement in church planting—you’ve moved now from South Africa and you find yourself . . . where do you find yourself these days? (Laughter)

Rob Rufus
Well, we planted a church in South Africa and led it for twelve years, handed it over, and then we re-located to Australia to help Dudley, who started the NCMI family of churches and apostolic team. We worked with him there for thirteen years. He actually handed the church over to me and he headed to the United States for awhile—for a number of years—so I led that church for seven years and then handed the church over to Tyrone Daniel, who is Dudley’s son. And then for three years we traveled full-time internationally equipping and training churches in evangelism, and signs and wonders, and doing crusades around the world. And then God spoke very clearly and said, “I want you to go plant a church in Hong Kong,”—which was a real challenge to me because I don’t speak Cantonese or Putonghua, which is Mandarin. But we very clearly heard the call to go. So we started with five people in Hong Kong—no one knew us, knew our history! But God has blessed us here. In three years we have seen local Chinese people saved and added, so we are enjoying it and beginning to move into the China mainland as well and help plant churches in the mainland.

Adrian
Praise God! That’s really great. So, within your family of churches, is that quite an unusual thing to go church planting? I mean, do you just have a few churches or what?

Rob Rufus
We’ve been going from probably the mid-80’s, so it is just over twenty years, and a number of guys and girls together on teams are relocating, planting churches internationally. And more and more we do want it to have a total indigenous flavour. We don’t want it to be—we’re not exporting South African culture that’s for sure! We want it to be Kingdom culture, so when the culture of the country we go to is consistent with the Kingdom culture, those elements of the culture, we say let’s celebrate that. But where the culture contradicts the culture of the Kingdom, then the Christians need to make the adjustments to conform to the culture of the Kingdom. So, yeah, there is that spearheading—more and more people going into different nations and planting, but we also kind of plant and parent. There are churches out there going—we really need to be connected with an apostolic team that can help us build foundation into the life of our churches We never own those churches, but work as friends with those churches through the invitation of the leaders— only through invitation of the leaders. There is no headquarters that says, “We own you and you’re just another statistic. If you don’t line up with us, then we’ll take your building, kick you out”—none of that! We don’t own any buildings. The local church is the highest governing authority; they own their buildings. We build friendship with them and relationship, so we also have had, over those twenty years, probably (we don’t know, you gotta be careful) I’m going to say some thousands of churches, but that represents throughout most of Africa, we have churches. In one year we had 500 churches planted in Malawi alone, but it just happens in Africa. It just happens. But in the Western world, no, we don’t have thousands; we’re talking hundreds in the Western world.

Continued in part 5 . . .

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we focused on Word and Spirit. Today I begin by asking Rob what steps readers who are intrigued by the charismatic experience should take.

Adrian
One of the things I find is that quite a few of the readers of my blog out there—they love the Word, they are Reformed folk—but they are a little bit bemused to discover that there are a ton of us [charismatics] who love the Word in the same way. Actually, a lot of them are quite drawn in, but they just don’t know quite how to make that connection. Perhaps they don’t live in a town where there’s a group they can go to. Maybe they’ve even been burnt by some of these “charismaniacs” we’ve talked about. What would you say to them? They’re sitting at home and are a bit intrigued, a bit fascinated. They want more, but know they haven’t really connected with the Spirit in that way.

Rob Rufus
Yes. Well, I would say—stay with the Scriptures. Never ever dilute or compromise your love for the Word of God! That is our foundation; that’s the bedrock. Then I would just invite the Holy Spirit to come, the Spirit of truth, because he breathed the Scriptures! They are God-breathed by the Spirit himself. Ask the Holy Spirit to come and just touch you and begin to lead you. And He will, because he really is faithful and wonderful. And then with technology today, this access to speakers around the world like the New Frontiers guys who talk about the Holy Spirit, but from a wonderful biblical place. I mean, I don’t think this fear today that the counterfeit, that the devil—and [the Bible] does warn in the last days there will be counterfeit signs, wonders, and miracles—but it doesn’t say that the ONLY signs, wonders, and miracles in the last day will be counterfeit. So if there is counterfeit, it means that the genuine will be there, and we need to find the genuine. We really need to find the genuine.

Adrian
Thanks for that. Just going back a minute then. There you were, coming—Calvinistic, charismatic, or if you prefer, Reformed Charismatic. (I always think the term “reformed charismatic” is funny because it makes it sound like we’re kind of an ex-charismatic group, doesn’t it?) (Section unclear because of loud laughter.) But you obviously did become part of a family of churches—you’re not part of New Frontiers, but you’re part of something—I think it’s New Covenant Ministries? Have I got that right?

Rob Rufus
Yes, New Covenant Ministries International.

Adrian
And I guess that’s a fairly similar group of churches to New Frontiers? Is that right? That’s my understanding.

Rob Rufus
Yes, very similar. We’ve got so much that is so close. Our DNA is so similar that I feel like I’m at home. I’ve got to realize, okay, yeah, I’m part of the family, you know. It just feels so similar.

Adrian
So, how did New Covenant Ministries International come about? Tell us a little bit about the history of that.

Rob Rufus
Sure. It was back in the early 1980’s when God was really moving in ways, I think, across the world, and particularly in South Africa (we were based in South Africa). My friend who actually mentored me, and fathered and birthed NCMI—his church grew explosively. And whatever happens, you know, whenever you have some success, pastors around the country want you to come and tell them about it.

Adrian
So who was that? What was his name?

Rob Rufus
It’s Dudley Daniel. He started traveling around South Africa and teaching about what made his church grow. Then God spoke to him one day on the plane and said, “It’s wonderful what you’re doing—you’re blessing pastors and that, but do you want to spend the rest of your life just blessing, or do you also want to help pastors build the Church?” Because blessings are short-lived, but if you build well, you can sustain the blessing. And God began to speak to Dudley about finding biblical patterns—what are the biblical wineskins? How were churches really governed in the New Testament? He began to see that there were some traditions that we had inherited that were not in line with Scripture, done by very sincere, good leaders. So he began to relate this to some friends. He threw his home open on a Monday, and pastors that were alone, looking for friendship, started coming and relating. And out of that came a kind of a motto that we developed: “Friendship before function.” We have a function into the earth, but we want to be friends; we want to do it with friends relationally, like Jesus did with his guys, his friends. (Too much laughter to hear what is being said here.) God showed us that we are the offspring of Abraham, and that we are (unclear) forces—we’re the heirs of the world. And that from the seed of Abraham God wanted to make the blessing to all nations! So the Great Commission really just complements the oath God took to Abraham—God took an oath that all nations would be blessed. When you take an oath, it’s—what’s the word I want to say?

Tope
Binding?

Rob Rufus
Yeah, binding. So God bound himself to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham. So if the Church balks on that, or hinders it, or stands against it, then God will precipitate a crisis, like he did with Jonah to get the Gospel to Nineveh. So we realized that God was calling us to go to the nations, and we built—with a national team of friends, we developed a mixture of prophetic, apostolic evangelists, teachers, pastors, etc.

Continued in part 4 . . .

As we drew to the close of part one of this interview with Rob Rufus we were emphasizing the need for charismatics to continue to value the Bible. Today we begin with a question my pastor, Tope Koleoso, asked. This is a lightly edited transcript of what was actually said.

Tope
I’ve got to say, I agree with you. Definitely for me in listening to all the sessions that you did, and for us as a church, having taken so many to this conference, and also as a pastor, having the privilege of speaking with other pastors—the response that I’ve been hearing back, certainly from my own perspective, has been that in the talks there has been a depth of theology, not just the push of an experience; there has been this depth of theology as the verses and the references have come out, but you have also told us of the experiences—what this would look like and what God can do. And beyond you describing this, we also saw what God did among us. So those two sides then—the Word and the Spirit—I would say we saw that, but I would say we also saw—I could put it this way—the Lion and the Lamb. There was a real confidence in the way I thought the talks came across, but also the gentility of getting to know the Person of the Holy Spirit. And I wondered—is this something that you’ve always had? Is it a style of preaching that you developed or what?

Rob Rufus
That’s an outstanding question, Tope. As I mentioned in the conference, before I became a Christian I was a Hare Krishna. I was practicing strict Hinduism very aesthetically. One of the things that attracted me to Christianity was that when I went to a meeting where the power of God was being manifested—where cripples were walking and deaf ears were opening and the power of God was there—it made me realize that Christianity can never be reduced just to a philosophy, but it has to declare that Jesus is alive; He is a risen living Saviour. So I came into the kingdom of heaven through seeing the supernatural—I was birthed in the miraculous. But then I had mentors that loved the Scriptures as well. We were kind of like charismatic Calvinists, in other words we had reformed theology of the sovereignty of God and the attributes of God and the awesomeness and the transcendence of God and the love for Scripture. But along with that was this recognition that Paul, one of the greatest apostles and one of the greatest theologians you could ever imagine—raised the dead. He moved in signs and wonders, the supernatural. So I think it’s fraudulent to say we are walking in a New Testament apostolic life if all we are is into the Spirit because that gets quite unusual and flaky and unhealthy after awhile. Or it’s fraudulent to say, “I’m apostolic; I’m into the Word of God, but we don’t have a demonstration of power. Paul had both, and I think that’s what good theology is. I mean, Jesus was the theologian of theologians, and he said to someone—you’re wrong because you don’t know the Scriptures AND the power of God. So he married the Word of God and the Scriptures together.

Adrian
Very good! Very good! So for you, growing up into that whole kind of charismatic Calvinist thing, you sort of laughed when you said it. Did you feel like you were a bit of an oddity? Were you aware there were others out there like that? Or was there just a small group of you and you felt a bit weird? Because that was our experience!

Rob Rufus
Adrian, that’s exactly how we felt! I got saved in 1977, I think, so it was the tail end of the hippie movement. We all had long hair and all of that stuff, and yet with the gifts of the Spirit in operation, we would do expository preaching right through the Bible. We would study books at a time—go through the book of Hebrews chapter by chapter.

Adrian
So your preaching wasn’t always like it was this week?

Rob Rufus
(Loud laughter) Of course not! I was inducted into Christianity through expository preaching, and that wasn’t me; it was my mentor.

Adrian
So you do that kind of expository preaching yourself?

Rob Rufus
I do occasionally. I have been in the church plant in Hong Kong for three years and I haven’t done a book yet in expository form. But we will. That is something I do. But in the middle of all that expository teaching, there were gifts of the Spirit—very passionate outreach and evangelism in the streets. So reformed denominations for whom I have great respect (I really do) who love the Scriptures—they couldn’t quite work us out. We were a bit of a strange case! We were charismatic Calvinists. And yet I feel like in today’s world, I think what’s happening is that a lot of committed evangelical people who love Jesus, who love the Scriptures, are suddenly to their relief, finding out that people who are full of the Spirit and know the supernatural power of God love the Scriptures as well. And I believe it’s giving them a sense that a bridging is taking place. I think, too, that those people who are moving in the power of God and love the Scriptures—we need to be humble and realize that evangelicals have a rich legacy that we can learn from, and I think we can enrich each other.

Continued in part 3 . . .

A few months ago it was my privilege to interview Rob Rufus. The audio version of that interview is available online, but thanks to two readers (Dan Bowden and a friend of Andrew Fountain) who both sent me transcripts of the MP3 lately, I am now able to publish the text version. It has only been lightly edited, so please do forgive us any grammatical errors that come from this being a conversation rather than careful writing. If you want to listen to the interview, the MP3 is available to download on the original post.

Adrian
The Together on a Mission conference has just ended, but I’m here, together with my pastor, Tope, and we’re here with Rob Rufus. Rob is going to talk to us a little bit about how the conference has been for him, and tell us a little bit more about his own church and his own family of churches, and just really share with us about that. So he’s kindly agreed to sit down—he’s probably