During the months of September and October, I spent a lot of time quoting from a book Justin Taylor produced—a lightly edited John Owen. These can all be read on the category page for posts labeled "John Owen." In November, I gave John Piper on N. T. Wright the same treatment.

I also wrote a post titled Blogging, Discernment, and a Book by Tim Challies which managed to provoke the Pyromaniacs, review Tim's book, and muse about the best approach to blogging for Christians—all in the same post! It was not long after that when I made the important decision to remove comments from this site because I just wasn't managing to find the time to moderate them properly. This was announced in Thanksgiving and Some Changes Around Here.

Terry Virgo hasn't found out and stopped me yet, but I managed to let everyone into the Secret of Newfrontiers—if you want to know what that is, you will have to read the post. I was also able to share an interview with a man who has a unique perspective on our movement, having been in it for decades before officially leaving, while remaining our very good friend. I am, of course, talking about Greg Haslam, who is currently occupying D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones' pulpit in Westminster Chapel, London.

It was very moving to be able to visit the Billy Graham Center in Wheaton, Illinois. I was also able to return to London in time to renew my acquaintance with Mark Dever, and to listen to him preach. Here are the posts:

• Theology for All — Lessons for the Future by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Lessons for the Present by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Lessons From the Past by Mark Dever
• Theology for All — Mark Dever in the UK
• Theology for All — An Interview with Mark Dever

In November I met Mark Driscoll in the flesh for the first time and shared the following posts about the meeting and his sermons there, as well as mentioning a couple of key ones from his home church:

• Driscoll on the Defeat of Shame and the Scotland MP3s
• Mark Driscoll at MenMakers in Scotland
• Mark Driscoll Preaches on the Atonement in Edinburgh, Scotland
• Mark Driscoll Apologizes For Not Being Humble
• Mark Driscoll Firm, But Kind, About Joel Osteen on Prosperity Teaching

In December I posted probably my most political post so far—"Time to Put a Stop to Brown?" It is fair to say that I assumed people would understand that I believed that, for better or worse, it is God who has given us this leader at this time. I should not have assumed that, nor should I have neglected to remind all of us of the need to pray for him. With Brown seemingly helpless against Cameron's weekly accusations that the PM is dithering and indecisive, it sure looks like the leader of "The B Team" needs our prayers! For the sake of our nation, I hope something changes and soon.

My final interview of the year was actually a transcipt of an interview I had previously shared in audio form. The interviewee was Rob Rufus, and that was surely a good way to end what has been my most eventful year of blogging so far.

Today I am publishing the fifth and final segment of my interview with Rob Rufus. The following links represent the posts which make up the first four parts of this interview:

• Preacher Rob Rufus
  
  
• Rob Rufus on Word and Spirit
  
  
• Rob Rufus on How To Explore the Charismatic
  
  
• Rob Rufus on apostles Today

In the last segment of my interview with Rob we spoke about his belief in apostles today and a bit about the family of churches of which he is a part. Today we will explore more about how this works in practice.

Adrian
So how does this all work? How do you hold such a vast movement like that together? How do you control it, or don’t you even try to control it?

Rob Rufus
I haven’t got a clue! (Laughter) We’ve never tried to plan—we've never said, "We’re going to invade this nation—we’re going to go there!"—everything we learned we stumbled on. We’ve learned as we’ve gone along. As doors have opened, we’ve gone through the doors. We do believe in the organic, not the organizational. The organic is something that just evolves. I mean, the Spirit blows where he wills, so as he evolves things, we just try to follow the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. And then, of course, once you’re in a nation you do have to organize. We’re not anti-organization. But you don’t organize and expect God to come. God comes, you follow him, and then you organize. So, how we work with all these churches, the challenge is that as the number of churches is growing, the danger is that you can end up looking for a denominational or headquarters type—that’s the danger you have to avoid all the time. Because good people who are put in charge of churches can end up becoming dictatorial and think “these churches are mine” to fire or hire or whatever.

Adrian
How does that work with apostles? Do you have an apostle for each country?

Rob Rufus
We have tried very strongly to avoid doing that because we don’t want regional apostles; we want international apostles because in the book of Acts they were in the dynamic power of God. They were turning the world upside down as a primitive church—simple, clean wineskins. But about 300 AD they started ordaining regional bishops, and that was the beginning of the end and the slide into the Dark Ages. So we try to avoid having regional apostles. But to qualify that, that’s not to say that some apostolic ministries won’t tend to have more influence in their region. Some, like Paul, are called primarily to the Gentiles, and others, like Peter, primarily to the Jews. So there is that “setting apart” that God may give certain apostles more influence in Africa or America or Australia, but they must never get territorial and say, “This is my territory. You guys from Africa, even though we are on the same team, don’t you come in here!” What we’ve said to all the churches that relate to our international team is, “You can invite anyone on the international team to come to you. You don’t have to be exclusively in an arbitrary way restricted to just the apostolic ministry resident in your country. You can invite the apostolic ministry from outside the nation so there is no regional control. And, of course, invite other people from other streams as well because we don’t want to be exclusive. It becomes a little bit incestuous when all you do is feed off your own lives and ministries.

Tope
The way you’re describing it, it’s far more fluid. There is structure to it, but it is sufficiently loose to allow relationships to continue to happen, and everything is forced through relationships. That’s amazing. How do you manage to keep the distinctives or the values that you have? How do you insure they don’t get diluted out?

Rob Rufus
That’s a very good question, and when I get the answer I’ll tell you! That’s a real delicate tension because you don’t want to become a movement that becomes so uniform that when someone comes into a church they say, “You guys are all the same—talk the same, look the same, dress the same"—so you get all stereotyped. We don’t want that, but yet at the same time we do want clear distinctives because that’s the strength in distinctives and clear DNA. You can’t have part of the body with certain DNA in one part and a different DNA in another part. We’ve been very strong, like Newfrontiers, on presenting our biblical values and our biblical vision. Our biblical vision is to fulfil the Great Commission by planting churches in every town, every city, and every village in the world. Our biblical values are how we do that vision—which is with integrity, team humility, embracing the power of the Holy Spirit, honoring one another. So we preach and teach those biblical values and authority structures and vision very strongly. Those values are similar to you guys—liberty, freedom, no manipulation, not using guilt manipulation. We don’t want to stereotype people. Does that answer your question?

Tope
Yes.

Adrian
Basically how do you see the future for these kinds of movements—do you think all these movements will somehow kind of merge into one super denomination? Or is that the last thing you want? Or do you think there will be lots of little families of churches like this growing up and working alongside each other maybe a bit, and partnering along the way? How do you see it?

Rob Rufus
I think Newfrontiers, New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI), and other streams like that—to some degree I think they have been in a fair amount of obscurity for the last twenty years. I think God has hidden us on purpose and prepared us in obscurity. But I think he is going to give profile to these kinds of streams, these apostolic teams, in the world today. Because there are many people who know something’s happening in the earth, that something exciting is happening, and God is restoring his Church to be something powerful in the earth. So people are asking questions and they want to belong to something that is flexible and free, yet with sound doctrine and theology, accountability, and freedom. I believe that God is wanting these streams to keep their distinctives, and yet work with each other and "cross pollinate." It seems Paul’s team honored Peter’s team, and so there was a real honoring, and I think that’s going to happen more and more. I think the fathers of these teams, and the apostolic leaders of these teams, are going to spend more time together and stir up each other’s faith and inspire one another.

Adrian
So it’s not about forming some big organization?

Rob Rufus
No, because then it becomes so top heavy in logistics. Then you are forced back into an organizational model where you just govern by principles. You govern by constitution rather than by the dynamic freedom of the Spirit. When it says in Acts 15 that God will restore David’s fallen tabernacle—that is an incredible prophecy out of Amos, and James himself quotes that, you know, as an answer to “Are we going to put the law on the Gentiles?” No, we’re not, and we’re going to give them freedom, and the nations are going to come into the restored tent of David. Many people think David’s fallen tent is just about praise and worship, but it is much more than that. It is a very dynamic tent, but it’s a cohesive whole. He talks, I mean there were 3, yet we’re part of the 30. But they were not the 30, and then there was another 3, but they were not part of that 3. They all were teams within teams! I think the fluidness of these streams is going to grow in profile and work alongside each other more in partnerships in the streams. I think God is going to have small-acting units as well. And God is going to not only relate people to movements, but to men as well. There are going to be men that within a movement connect better with certain men. I’m looking for men within our own NCMI movement with whom I’m connecting well to help me in China.

Adrian
I’ve taken quite a lot of your time and I guess we should draw this to an end. But I’m just wondering—Are there any final things you would like to say in closing to the people listening, who come, really, from all over the world—all kinds of different backgrounds. What would you say to them in closing, Rob?

Rob Rufus
I would say that these are amazing days, and Jesus is so wonderful, and don’t be robbed of your inheritance. You are alive on the planet now, not by coming to him, but because you have been hand-picked, selected by God to be alive at the climax of the consummation of the ages. So don’t be hijacked or seduced or hurt through bitterness or disappointment, because there is all of that happening. We have all been hurt. We’ve all been disappointed. We’ve all been there, but we must keep our eyes on the prize. And he is Jesus. He is so wonderful, and he’s so glorious, and he’s building his Church in such a wonderful way—he hasn’t finished yet, so don’t be disappointed with the Church! He has not finished yet. He is preparing us for great things in these days! God bless you guys!

Adrian
Amen. Thank you very much!

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we finished by talking a bit about the network of churches of which he is a part. We ended with Rob speaking about a team of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/ teachers. Today we begin by asking Rob what he means by “apostles.”

For more information about the concept of apostles today, see my post "apostles are meant for today," the section of my interview with the leader of Newfrontiers which asks what Terry Virgo means by apostles today. For a response to our view from someone who respectfully disagrees, see when I ask Wayne Grudem about apostles today. Interestingly, some respected cessationists such as Liam Goligher argue that we need something similar to apostles, although presumably he would be less happy with calling them that. You will notice that I have used the word "apostles" with a small "a," even when that is grammatically incorrect. That is because we like to distinguish between the original "Apostles," who were in certain important ways unique, and other "apostles."

Adrian
You used that word “apostolic,” and I’m very aware that some of my readers will wonder, “What do you mean by that?” Can you explain your perspective of what that means?

Rob Rufus
Yes, and I think that is a very good question, because people are asking that, and it really is something people want to have clarity on. Often people think apostles are those who write Scripture, and that if we’re claiming we’ve got apostles today, we claim that the canon of Scripture’s not closed. But as we know, it IS closed, and that [New Testament] Scripture was written only by apostles in the first century. So we have pre-ascension apostles in the Bible and post-ascension apostles. Anyone who believes the Bible is God’s inspired Word will realize there must be apostles around today—they’re not pre-ascension apostles. The pre-ascension apostles are the twelve apostles of the Lamb that were called primarily to be witnesses to the baptism of Jesus, his life, his resurrection. But after Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended on high (Ephesians 4) he gave some to be apostles. So there are post-ascension apostles as well, and he says they will be in the earth until the Church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ. We know the Church is not at the full measure of the stature of Christ currently, so we will need apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the equipping of the believers, the saints, for the work of the ministry until we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God and to the full measure of the stature of Christ. So apostles need to be “until.” That word “until” offers the key word.

Adrian
Yes, very good. I think it’s Matthew Henry who looks at that passage and says something like, “These gifts (or rather some of them) will continue until the end.” It’s an interesting approach, I guess. If the apostles stop, why doesn’t the pastor stop?

Rob Rufus
Exactly! Exactly!

Tope
Yes, absolutely. I think you put it very, very well, and in a very helpful way because, certainly I know that for us, just working as we see the Bible order these things functioning together with apostles in the midst and all the other gifts, it’s been an incredible help. Near the end, it does say he gives these as gifts. He must know that we need these gifts. There’s something very powerful there. Every time we align ourselves with the biblical order that God has put in place, goodness and blessing come out the other end. So we’re all learning this.

Rob Rufus
Very good, Tope! I agree. I agree. I think when people hear of apostles, they kind of think of some sort of hierarchy and almost a controlling dictator-type where apostles are self-appointed and really think they are the big bosses of the church, you know, but actually Paul says, “We, the apostles, come at the end of the line.” There is nothing dictatorial, although Paul was incredibly anointed in such power and theology and revelation, he came amongst the churches like a father—he said almost like a nursing mother to the Thessalonians. And he speaks about of his affection for them and his friendship for them, and the care for the churches. So there is a hierarchy there. But Paul wouldn’t even put the word “apostle” in front of his name. He always put it behind his name: “Paul, called to be an apostle.” He is saying “apostle” is not my title, it’s my job description. So you’ll never see the word “apostle” in front of Paul’s name, or any of the guy’s names. Even at home, I like to say to people, “Look, I’m Rob, called to be a pastor to you.” Pastor is my job description; it’s not my title. People say, “I’ve got to call you “Pastor Rob” because that’s a sign of respect.” And I say, “Well, then, I’ve got to call you Mechanic Henry. Or Housewife Jill." I don’t show you respect by calling your job description as your title. I think every sincere person who loves the Scriptures—we need to say the Bible plus nothing, the Bible minus nothing—and we build our theology, our church practice—not only our doctrine of Hebrews 6: faith, repentance, you know, all of the doctrine. But the government, the way church is governed, needs to come back to Scripture as well.

Adrian
Yes, and I think that’s so right. It seems like, I guess it’s almost like we have blind spots—where we want the Bible up to this point, but no further. I guess church history is a bit like that—you look back in church history and you see some of these guys in the past, and you think, “How could you see so much great stuff and not this?!”

Rob Rufus
Yes! Very good! Yes! Yes!

Tope
I think the real enemy just tries to blind us and stop us from seeing certain things and living in the good of certain things. But God is still on the throne and seeking to bring recovery to everything.

When you talk about Paul there, and his movement in church planting—you’ve moved now from South Africa and you find yourself . . . where do you find yourself these days? (Laughter)

Rob Rufus
Well, we planted a church in South Africa and led it for twelve years, handed it over, and then we re-located to Australia to help Dudley, who started the NCMI family of churches and apostolic team. We worked with him there for thirteen years. He actually handed the church over to me and he headed to the United States for awhile—for a number of years—so I led that church for seven years and then handed the church over to Tyrone Daniel, who is Dudley’s son. And then for three years we traveled full-time internationally equipping and training churches in evangelism, and signs and wonders, and doing crusades around the world. And then God spoke very clearly and said, “I want you to go plant a church in Hong Kong,”—which was a real challenge to me because I don’t speak Cantonese or Putonghua, which is Mandarin. But we very clearly heard the call to go. So we started with five people in Hong Kong—no one knew us, knew our history! But God has blessed us here. In three years we have seen local Chinese people saved and added, so we are enjoying it and beginning to move into the China mainland as well and help plant churches in the mainland.

Adrian
Praise God! That’s really great. So, within your family of churches, is that quite an unusual thing to go church planting? I mean, do you just have a few churches or what?

Rob Rufus
We’ve been going from probably the mid-80’s, so it is just over twenty years, and a number of guys and girls together on teams are relocating, planting churches internationally. And more and more we do want it to have a total indigenous flavour. We don’t want it to be—we’re not exporting South African culture that’s for sure! We want it to be Kingdom culture, so when the culture of the country we go to is consistent with the Kingdom culture, those elements of the culture, we say let’s celebrate that. But where the culture contradicts the culture of the Kingdom, then the Christians need to make the adjustments to conform to the culture of the Kingdom. So, yeah, there is that spearheading—more and more people going into different nations and planting, but we also kind of plant and parent. There are churches out there going—we really need to be connected with an apostolic team that can help us build foundation into the life of our churches We never own those churches, but work as friends with those churches through the invitation of the leaders— only through invitation of the leaders. There is no headquarters that says, “We own you and you’re just another statistic. If you don’t line up with us, then we’ll take your building, kick you out”—none of that! We don’t own any buildings. The local church is the highest governing authority; they own their buildings. We build friendship with them and relationship, so we also have had, over those twenty years, probably (we don’t know, you gotta be careful) I’m going to say some thousands of churches, but that represents throughout most of Africa, we have churches. In one year we had 500 churches planted in Malawi alone, but it just happens in Africa. It just happens. But in the Western world, no, we don’t have thousands; we’re talking hundreds in the Western world.

Continued in part 5 . . .

In the previous segment of this interview with Rob Rufus, we focused on Word and Spirit. Today I begin by asking Rob what steps readers who are intrigued by the charismatic experience should take.

Adrian
One of the things I find is that quite a few of the readers of my blog out there—they love the Word, they are Reformed folk—but they are a little bit bemused to discover that there are a ton of us [charismatics] who love the Word in the same way. Actually, a lot of them are quite drawn in, but they just don’t know quite how to make that connection. Perhaps they don’t live in a town where there’s a group they can go to. Maybe they’ve even been burnt by some of these “charismaniacs” we’ve talked about. What would you say to them? They’re sitting at home and are a bit intrigued, a bit fascinated. They want more, but know they haven’t really connected with the Spirit in that way.

Rob Rufus
Yes. Well, I would say—stay with the Scriptures. Never ever dilute or compromise your love for the Word of God! That is our foundation; that’s the bedrock. Then I would just invite the Holy Spirit to come, the Spirit of truth, because he breathed the Scriptures! They are God-breathed by the Spirit himself. Ask the Holy Spirit to come and just touch you and begin to lead you. And He will, because he really is faithful and wonderful. And then with technology today, this access to speakers around the world like the New Frontiers guys who talk about the Holy Spirit, but from a wonderful biblical place. I mean, I don’t think this fear today that the counterfeit, that the devil—and [the Bible] does warn in the last days there will be counterfeit signs, wonders, and miracles—but it doesn’t say that the ONLY signs, wonders, and miracles in the last day will be counterfeit. So if there is counterfeit, it means that the genuine will be there, and we need to find the genuine. We really need to find the genuine.

Adrian
Thanks for that. Just going back a minute then. There you were, coming—Calvinistic, charismatic, or if you prefer, Reformed Charismatic. (I always think the term “reformed charismatic” is funny because it makes it sound like we’re kind of an ex-charismatic group, doesn’t it?) (Section unclear because of loud laughter.) But you obviously did become part of a family of churches—you’re not part of New Frontiers, but you’re part of something—I think it’s New Covenant Ministries? Have I got that right?

Rob Rufus
Yes, New Covenant Ministries International.

Adrian
And I guess that’s a fairly similar group of churches to New Frontiers? Is that right? That’s my understanding.

Rob Rufus
Yes, very similar. We’ve got so much that is so close. Our DNA is so similar that I feel like I’m at home. I’ve got to realize, okay, yeah, I’m part of the family, you know. It just feels so similar.

Adrian
So, how did New Covenant Ministries International come about? Tell us a little bit about the history of that.

Rob Rufus
Sure. It was back in the early 1980’s when God was really moving in ways, I think, across the world, and particularly in South Africa (we were based in South Africa). My friend who actually mentored me, and fathered and birthed NCMI—his church grew explosively. And whatever happens, you know, whenever you have some success, pastors around the country want you to come and tell them about it.

Adrian
So who was that? What was his name?

Rob Rufus
It’s Dudley Daniel. He started traveling around South Africa and teaching about what made his church grow. Then God spoke to him one day on the plane and said, “It’s wonderful what you’re doing—you’re blessing pastors and that, but do you want to spend the rest of your life just blessing, or do you also want to help pastors build the Church?” Because blessings are short-lived, but if you build well, you can sustain the blessing. And God began to speak to Dudley about finding biblical patterns—what are the biblical wineskins? How were churches really governed in the New Testament? He began to see that there were some traditions that we had inherited that were not in line with Scripture, done by very sincere, good leaders. So he began to relate this to some friends. He threw his home open on a Monday, and pastors that were alone, looking for friendship, started coming and relating. And out of that came a kind of a motto that we developed: “Friendship before function.” We have a function into the earth, but we want to be friends; we want to do it with friends relationally, like Jesus did with his guys, his friends. (Too much laughter to hear what is being said here.) God showed us that we are the offspring of Abraham, and that we are (unclear) forces—we’re the heirs of the world. And that from the seed of Abraham God wanted to make the blessing to all nations! So the Great Commission really just complements the oath God took to Abraham—God took an oath that all nations would be blessed. When you take an oath, it’s—what’s the word I want to say?

Tope
Binding?

Rob Rufus
Yeah, binding. So God bound himself to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham. So if the Church balks on that, or hinders it, or stands against it, then God will precipitate a crisis, like he did with Jonah to get the Gospel to Nineveh. So we realized that God was calling us to go to the nations, and we built—with a national team of friends, we developed a mixture of prophetic, apostolic evangelists, teachers, pastors, etc.

Continued in part 4 . . .

As we drew to the close of part one of this interview with Rob Rufus we were emphasizing the need for charismatics to continue to value the Bible. Today we begin with a question my pastor, Tope Koleoso, asked. This is a lightly edited transcript of what was actually said.

Tope
I’ve got to say, I agree with you. Definitely for me in listening to all the sessions that you did, and for us as a church, having taken so many to this conference, and also as a pastor, having the privilege of speaking with other pastors—the response that I’ve been hearing back, certainly from my own perspective, has been that in the talks there has been a depth of theology, not just the push of an experience; there has been this depth of theology as the verses and the references have come out, but you have also told us of the experiences—what this would look like and what God can do. And beyond you describing this, we also saw what God did among us. So those two sides then—the Word and the Spirit—I would say we saw that, but I would say we also saw—I could put it this way—the Lion and the Lamb. There was a real confidence in the way I thought the talks came across, but also the gentility of getting to know the Person of the Holy Spirit. And I wondered—is this something that you’ve always had? Is it a style of preaching that you developed or what?

Rob Rufus
That’s an outstanding question, Tope. As I mentioned in the conference, before I became a Christian I was a Hare Krishna. I was practicing strict Hinduism very aesthetically. One of the things that attracted me to Christianity was that when I went to a meeting where the power of God was being manifested—where cripples were walking and deaf ears were opening and the power of God was there—it made me realize that Christianity can never be reduced just to a philosophy, but it has to declare that Jesus is alive; He is a risen living Saviour. So I came into the kingdom of heaven through seeing the supernatural—I was birthed in the miraculous. But then I had mentors that loved the Scriptures as well. We were kind of like charismatic Calvinists, in other words we had reformed theology of the sovereignty of God and the attributes of God and the awesomeness and the transcendence of God and the love for Scripture. But along with that was this recognition that Paul, one of the greatest apostles and one of the greatest theologians you could ever imagine—raised the dead. He moved in signs and wonders, the supernatural. So I think it’s fraudulent to say we are walking in a New Testament apostolic life if all we are is into the Spirit because that gets quite unusual and flaky and unhealthy after awhile. Or it’s fraudulent to say, “I’m apostolic; I’m into the Word of God, but we don’t have a demonstration of power. Paul had both, and I think that’s what good theology is. I mean, Jesus was the theologian of theologians, and he said to someone—you’re wrong because you don’t know the Scriptures AND the power of God. So he married the Word of God and the Scriptures together.

Adrian
Very good! Very good! So for you, growing up into that whole kind of charismatic Calvinist thing, you sort of laughed when you said it. Did you feel like you were a bit of an oddity? Were you aware there were others out there like that? Or was there just a small group of you and you felt a bit weird? Because that was our experience!

Rob Rufus
Adrian, that’s exactly how we felt! I got saved in 1977, I think, so it was the tail end of the hippie movement. We all had long hair and all of that stuff, and yet with the gifts of the Spirit in operation, we would do expository preaching right through the Bible. We would study books at a time—go through the book of Hebrews chapter by chapter.

Adrian
So your preaching wasn’t always like it was this week?

Rob Rufus
(Loud laughter) Of course not! I was inducted into Christianity through expository preaching, and that wasn’t me; it was my mentor.

Adrian
So you do that kind of expository preaching yourself?

Rob Rufus
I do occasionally. I have been in the church plant in Hong Kong for three years and I haven’t done a book yet in expository form. But we will. That is something I do. But in the middle of all that expository teaching, there were gifts of the Spirit—very passionate outreach and evangelism in the streets. So reformed denominations for whom I have great respect (I really do) who love the Scriptures—they couldn’t quite work us out. We were a bit of a strange case! We were charismatic Calvinists. And yet I feel like in today’s world, I think what’s happening is that a lot of committed evangelical people who love Jesus, who love the Scriptures, are suddenly to their relief, finding out that people who are full of the Spirit and know the supernatural power of God love the Scriptures as well. And I believe it’s giving them a sense that a bridging is taking place. I think, too, that those people who are moving in the power of God and love the Scriptures—we need to be humble and realize that evangelicals have a rich legacy that we can learn from, and I think we can enrich each other.

Continued in part 3 . . .

A few months ago it was my privilege to interview Rob Rufus. The audio version of that interview is available online, but thanks to two readers (Dan Bowden and a friend of Andrew Fountain) who both sent me transcripts of the MP3 lately, I am now able to publish the text version. It has only been lightly edited, so please do forgive us any grammatical errors that come from this being a conversation rather than careful writing. If you want to listen to the interview, the MP3 is available to download on the original post.

Adrian
The Together on a Mission conference has just ended, but I’m here, together with my pastor, Tope, and we’re here with Rob Rufus. Rob is going to talk to us a little bit about how the conference has been for him, and tell us a little bit more about his own church and his own family of churches, and just really share with us about that. So he’s kindly agreed to sit down—he’s probably a bit tired—but we’re going to have a good time, hopefully, this afternoon. So, Rob, first of all, how has this conference been for you?

Rob Rufus
I think it’s been very staggering and astonishing in a delightful way because what I experienced here was almost like the reward of the fruit of a number of years of New Frontiers preparing themselves, building a good wineskin. And by “wineskin” I mean the kind of authority structures we build the church with—biblical values and biblical vision. We are now positioned to really see God come in an amazing way. So I felt there was such a liberty and an openness to God’s visitation, to the supernatural of God, and I think a lot of that’s got to do with the understanding that the churches have on the theology of grace—the understanding of grace—and the security that we have in Christ. So, it’s been an incredibly enlarging time here; just the spirit of faith among the people, the sense of a global vision, and yet doing it together as a team, doing it together in a sense of partnership. So, for me, the overall sense of the ethos and the atmosphere was one of a group of people very zealous, very passionate, full of vision, yet who haven’t kissed their brains goodbye, well-grounded in good theology, sound doctrine, open to the power of the Holy Spirit, and real people who are really friendly with one another and enjoy one another’s company, and that’s been a delight.

Adrian
Excellent! Yeah, and it’s been great. Obviously, one of the features of this conference has been your own preaching, Rob. I just wonder for those who have not been at the conference, and perhaps have been following the blogs—how would you summarize your key message, just in a couple of sentences, of this conference—what you’d like people to take away, because, to be honest, taking notes hasn’t been that easy! (Loud laughter) Well, you could say that!

Rob Rufus
Yes, absolutely! I mean, I’m the worst person for writing notes myself, and then, of course, for people to be able to pick up notes, because I tend to be more spontaneous and impromptu. Probably what I’d like people to primarily take away in a few sentences is that, of course, God is turning up the supernatural—the volume of the demonstration of his power—not just for the sake of sensationalism for us to find ourselves popular or famous because of that, but because he wants to be glorified in the world, he wants to get the world’s attention. The primary essence I would like people to take away is that we don’t seek primarily the power of God, but we seek the person of God. We seek who he is, his glory. Because his power is what he does, but his glory and his presence is who he is, and that’s the only thing that will fulfill people—to know him personally. That sense of intimacy is such a delight; it gives us that fulfillment. Out of that he hides his power within his presence so you can live a supernatural life in a natural way because you’re not having to fast forty days to get the power—you can just walk with the person of God in intimacy and he releases his power out of that relationship with himself.

Adrian
Yes. I guess that some Christians sitting at home listening to this—I mean, I get readers on my blog from all kinds of different backgrounds—they’re going to listen to that and think, “What is this guy talking about? A relationship with God? I thought we just had a relationship with a Book!” What would you say to those kinds of people?

Rob Rufus
Well, it’s like—when I met my wife for the first time I was at university so I couldn’t spend time with her because the university was in a different city. So during the first six months, I could only see her every second or third weekend. We corresponded in those days—it was a long enough time ago it was by letters, not e-mails!—(loud laughter) and although her letters were perfumed and I loved reading her letters, I didn’t have a love relationship primarily with her letters, but with the author of the letters. So I longed to get to see the person who was writing the letter and meet her. So the Bible is, in a sense, perfumed with the presence of God—it’s God-breathed; it’s really his love letter to us. It’s an introduction for us to get to know the Author of the Book. That’s the delight!

Adrian
Yes, very good! So you are not one of those “charismaniacs” who want to throw out the Bible then, Rob?

Rob Rufus
Absolutely not, Adrian! That, I think, is the tragedy. Sadly the charismatics or Pentecostals (to some degree, not all!) have been known as a people who are kind of going on a binge of subjectivity. It’s all self-indulgent. You have got to have theological references to make sure that the supernatural experiences you are having are authentic because we do have the counterfeit in the world today; we do have deception in the world today. The Bible is the foundation that authenticates that we are having legitimate miraculous encounters with God.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Fred Sanders has a great post interacting with Thomas Goodwin's exalted view of Ephesians. Goodwin is not alone. In the "Introduction" to his series on Ephesians, Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote this:

"It is very difficult to speak of [Ephesians] in a controlled manner because of its greatness and because of its sublimity. Many have tried to describe it. One writer has described it as 'the crown and climax of Pauline theology'. Another has said that it is 'the distilled essence of the Christian religion, the most authoritative and most consummate compendium of our holy Christian faith'. What language! And it is by no means exaggerated.

. . . . the peculiar feature and characteristic of the Epistle to the Ephesians is that here the Apostle seems to be, as he puts it himself, in 'the heavenly places', and he is looking down at the great panorama of salvation and redemption . . . The result is that in this Epistle there is very little controversy; and that is so because his great concern here was to give to the Ephesians . . . a panoramic view of this wondrous and glorious work of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

. . . Luther says of the Epistle to the Romans that it is 'the most important document in the New Testament, the gospel in its purest expression', and in many ways I agree that there is no purer, plainer statement of the gospel than in the Epistle to the Romans. Accepting that as true, I would venture to add if the Epistle to the Romans is the purest expression of the gospel, the Epistle to the Ephesians is the sublimest and the most majestic expression of it. . . .There are statements and passages in this Epistle which really baffle description. The great Apostle piles epithet upon epithet, adjective upon adjective, and still he cannot express himself adequately. There are passages in [the] first chapter, and others in the third chapter, especially towards its end, where the Apostle is carried out above and beyond himself and loses and abandons himself in a great outburst of worship and praise and thanksgiving. I repeat, therefore, that there is nothing more sublime in the whole range of Scripture than this Epistle to the Ephesians.

D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. God's Ultimate Purpose—An Exposition of Ephesians 1, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1978, pp. 11-12.

It seems then that Lloyd-Jones ranked Ephesians very highly indeed. I suspect it is only his challenging views on 'sealing with the Spirit' that have stopped the Doctor's far shorter work on Ephesians from being as well known as his major work on Romans. I strongly urge every would-be preacher to do what I did decades ago and get yourself a copy and read through Ephesians with Martyn Lloyd-Jones as your guide.

Anyway, here is Fred:

[Goodwin] quotes Jerome’s comment that Ephesians is “like the heart in the midst of the body,” (quomodo cor animalis in medio est), and says that just as the heart is “the prime seat and fountain of spirits, and the fullest thereof,” Ephesians has everything important in it that you can find anywhere in Scripture. In fact, it has “more of the spirits, the quintessence of the mysteries of Christ,” than can be found anywhere else in the Bible.

And in case you don’t believe Goodwin or Jerome, Goodwin hazards the observation that Paul himself seemed to be aware that he’d written something especially specially special: In Ephesians 3:3, Paul says that a rich treasury of insight into the mystery of the gospel had been given to him, “as I said before.” Goodwin thinks “as I said before” means “up there, the last couple of chapters.”

If you are interested in finding out more about Ephesians, feel free to follow along with our church as we preach our way through this amazing book. Either subscribe to our podcast or visit Jubilee Church, London.

Just as it is not possible to really understand a car without knowing about its engine, you cannot understand Newfrontiers without knowing about the engine which lies under its hood. That engine is in very large part what happens several times a year when church leaders gather for a time of prayer and fasting. This past week it was truly awesome to gather with 750 others to devote ourselves to seeking God. In the context of prayer, prophetic words are shared and evaluated. We catch the heart of God for our next thrust forward. Family news is shared. And what news! We have now seen God work in such a way that there are over 200 churches in the UK. We also heard about fresh drives to plant churches in Paris, Rome, Berlin, Dublin, Porta, Amsterdam, and Valentia, among others. There are even some more churches looking at joining our growing family in the USA. In every continent of the world, Newfrontiers churches are growing and multiplying. With the work God is also doing in other groups, it is increasingly possible to believe that reformed, charismatic, grace-filled, relational churches will be planted all over the world.

To join a resounding chorus of praise to God and prayer for the success of all these endeavors was deeply moving. We also heard about how the churches of Zimbabwe with whom we are in touch are full of joy and faith despite the difficult circumstances they face. Who could not have been stirred by Terry Virgo's fresh challenge to us to rediscover the vital place of shepherding God's flock and focusing our best efforts on caring for churches even as they go out on a mission? Meeting with some of you my readers was also great fun.

The worship was very rousing. In particular, I felt my heart swell as we sang Jesus My Only Hope. I found myself thinking—if he is our only hope, what of those who have no hope? How can we not share him with them? As you can imagine, I was all the more thrilled therefore to witness baptisms this morning at our own church. He really is our only hope!

Words and music by Mark Altrogge
As recorded on Songs for the Cross-Centered Life

Lyrics

I come into Your presence
With nothing in my hands
I only bring thanksgiving
For Jesus, God and Man
I cast myself on mercy
I cast myself on love
I trust Your gracious promise
To wash me with Your blood.

I will not fear Your judgment
For me, no wrath I dread
For it was spent on Jesus
Poured out upon His head
When Satan’s accusations
Make my poor heart afraid
I hear my King declaring
“Father, that debt is paid.”

Jesus my only hope, my only plea
My righteousness, my Great High Priest
Who intercedes for me before the throne
Jesus, I trust in You alone.

© 2002 Sovereign Grace Praise (BMI).

In this, the final segment of my interview with Greg Haslam, Greg discusses being reformed and charismatic, Terry Virgo's spiritual influence on the church in the UK, and the role of the organization Terry heads up, Newfrontiers.

If you missed any of the other four parts of this interview, you can read them here:

1. Greg Haslam on Filling Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Pulpit
   
   
2. Greg Haslam on Leaving Newfrontiers for Westminster Chapel
   
   
3. Greg Haslam on the Primacy of Preaching
   
   
4. Greg Haslam on Unity Versus Doctrinal Integrity

Adrian
You combine an interest in the charismatic and reformed doctrine. I know that many of my US readers still find that combination hard to comprehend. Do you find that people look at you strangely sometimes from both sides, or do you feel that, in the UK at least, the wider Church understands it nowadays?

Greg
I sense that this combination of “Word and Spirit” is no longer the issue it was for many. The heat and dust seems to have settled on the controversies of the 1960's to 1990's, and many have gone back to the Bible, seen good practice in many churches, and agreed, “You were right!” As I said previously, I am convinced many more will come to the same conclusion and we shall reach “unity in the faith” on this matter. People still look at me strangely, but probably for other reasons I need to do something about!

Adrian
It seems to me that Newfrontiers, and Terry Virgo in particular, seem to be a growing force in the UK church scene that seems to, in part, change the perception most people have of the charismatic. So, unlike in the US, if one says the word “charismatic,” people increasingly think of a Newfrontiers church they know. Do you think that is a valid perception?

Greg
Terry Virgo is one of the most important Christian leaders God has raised up in the last thirty years. No wonder amazing doors continue to open for him and his message to the Church! He is wise, humble, full of grace, and a man of astonishing faithfulness and vision. Significantly, he is an outstanding prophetic voice and a remarkable Bible teacher. He combines Word and Spirit in striking ways, teaching truth in depth and seeing miracles accompany it, and he has influenced thousands of people around the world to model the same authentic Christianity we read of in the book of Acts. We're told by Christ to judge teachers “by their fruits” (Matthew 7). I've seen what Terry and his associates have built first-hand. I have been part of it. It is very impressive. It is not marked by the boasting, hype, self-serving, and exploitation that other leaders and movements have floundered on. When I say “Charismatic” he and his movement is what I most think of. It's biblical and dynamic in equal measure. Why divorce what God always meant to be together?

Adrian
As someone with a slightly more detached status these days, how do you see Newfrontiers, or for that matter other similar groups developing in the future?

Greg
I see them interfacing, interlacing, and having an increasingly beneficial influence upon one another, thus fostering greater unity in the wider body of Christ. If that doesn't happen, we might rightly ask, “What was that all about then?”

Adrian
One question no one seems to ask is what will Newfrontiers look like after Terry Virgo—not that he seems likely to go anywhere for some time to come! The Vineyard Movement seemed to struggle a little after the death of John Wimber. Do you think Newfrontiers will have a similar struggle in years to come?

Greg
Possibly. Under God, Terry has been the “father” of the movement in every respect. I don't know if an evident successor has emerged as yet. But Terry has never sought to hold things to himself. He has raised up like-minded leaders of stature. He has released them to “do their stuff” all over the world. He is not possessive. He believes in Church unity. He is a blessing to many outside Newfrontiers. Young leaders are emerging everywhere you look and church plants and adoptions increase by the week, with many Ephesians 4 ministries being released to serve them. I don't see this movement collapsing should Terry retire or be taken home. He has built too well. Only demonic attack, heresy, or some kind of character failure on the part of his followers could jeopardize all he has built, but many safeguards are in place to help prevent this.

Adrian
What do you think the wider Church will look like thirty years from now? Will existing denominations and groups of churches be intact? Will there still be the same arguments that divide us now?

Greg
I am pretty sure that intellectual, religious, social, and political persecution is emerging in our nation right now and will increase in the future. Arrests, imprisonment, and even martyrdoms could occur. Some loose unaffiliated churches and failed denominations will likely go to the wall. As the darkness deepens, it means that there is every possibility the light will become brighter. Christians will find each other, and find Christ more powerful among them, and then will find the courage to do and say the right things in spite of the pressure to panic or compromise. We can, and shall, make great progress in the conversion of dangerous false religionists, and among many who will be disillusioned with the failure of governments and other faiths to “give the goods.” Evolutionism, secularism, atheism, and religious syncretism will all be exposed for their lies. Truth will prevail and error cannot hold out forever.

Adrian
Well, Greg, it has been a pleasure to have you here. But before you go, do you have anything else you would like to say to my readers?

Greg
“Be who you is, ‘cos if you ain’t who you is, you is who you ain’t!”

Adrian
Thanks so much for joining us!

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Today I continue the interview with Greg Haslam which began yesterday in a post entitled “Greg Haslam on Filling Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Pulpit.”

Adrian
Yesterday you mentioned your previous church, which is a part of Newfrontiers. You still speak at Newfrontiers conferences, but your current church isn’t listed as a member. What exactly is your relationship with Newfrontiers, both personally and as a church?

Greg
Westminster Chapel has been a fairly unique and decidedly independent kind of place, with a significant influence on the wider church, primarily through the preaching and books of its ministers. It's probably time that this independence became inter-dependence on other streams and ministries. This is on my heart to achieve in the years ahead. These connections are likely to be varied since I've always been keen on unity in the church, and want to live out that conviction. This will mean friendships with all kinds of leaders and people, and openness to receive a wide diversity of ministry from outside as God leads.

Newfrontiers was always primarily about relationships rather than “names on a list” or being part of an organization. My relationships continue whenever time and opportunity permit. I value my dear friends in Newfrontiers, and still attend their Theology Forum, teach some of their leadership training courses, take part in the Brighton Leaders Conference, and preach at Newfrontiers churches whenever I can. The warmth of old friends is always incredible whenever I meet them!

I can't tell you how much I miss Newfrontiers! I relish any contact I have with Terry Virgo and other apostolic and prophetic guys. The Chapel hosts a monthly Newfrontiers London pastors’ gathering, which I attend whenever I can. The Chapel views Newfrontiers very positively indeed now, and we've had many of their leaders preach here. Yet I remain officially outside of that movement, in line with all God told me to do five years ago. This has led to many new and wonderful friendships with top leaders and great movements around the country, as well as opportunities to serve the wider body through church visits and ministry of the Word at major denominational and church-stream conferences. I am convinced that the wider body of Christ, including many evangelicals who ignored or allowed previous moves of the Holy Spirit to bypass them from the 1960's onwards, are going to be caught up in a new visitation of God—soon! I speak to this matter whenever I can, and I have just written two new books to help foster new openness to God in whatever way I can, and to help leaders to make sense of what God is going to do—A Radical Encounter with God (New Wine Press, October 2007) and Moving in the Prophetic (Monarch Publications, April 2008).

Continued in part three, "Greg Haslam On The Primacy of Preaching."

To find out more about Greg Haslam, visit Westminster Chapel’s website, or download mp3s of conference messages by Greg Haslam.

Pentecostal/Charismatic Post-It Notes has put together a page of short quotes from last week's conference. Here are a few that stood out to me from his longer list:

• "For many of us we don’t flow in the prophetic because we don’t understand our sonship. We can read many books, but if we don’t get it settled that we are sons, then we will live as orphans for the rest of [our lives] waiting for the command of God rather than the heart of God. The prophetic is not about just hearing words, but about an encounter with a real Person." (Julian Adams)
  
  
• "It is ludicrous to believe in an intellectual way that Jesus Christ is raised from the dead alone — if he's alive, then he will speak and we will hear! He will act and we will see!" (Rob Rufus)
  
  
• "The true prophetic sees the future and brings the future into the now." (Rob Rufus)
  
  
• "It is ridiculous to try and fulfill a biblical vision without apostles and prophets!" (David Stroud)
  

My buddy, Pedro, kindly helped us with some of the live-blogging, and shared my hotel room. Here are his reflections on the conference.

"Attending the Together on A Mission conference was, to me, a carefully orchestrated privilege from God that I will cherish all my days.

Having so many people from 53 nations and various walks of life coming together all for the sake of Christ was awesome and very encouraging — indeed Jesus is alive. I have attended many conferences that have blessed me and have helped shape me, but TOAM07 was, for me, a command to arise and dig into those things that have been prepared for me from the foundation of the earth and that I will need to do by the grace of God.

During the worship, I stopped a couple of times to observe the lifted hands, the sea of heads, the expression of overwhelming joy on the faces of the people, and the dancing like David, king of Israel — a man after the heart of God — and I couldn’t [help] but see God in the midst of his people (2 Samuel 6:14). I danced like I have never danced. The spirit of worship was evidently upon the musicians and the choice of songs.

I traveled with two members of Jubilee Church, and the brotherly spirit was excellent. I shared a room with my dear friend, Adrian, and that was another conference of its own — it’s wonderful when God binds people together. How good it is when brethren dwell together in unity; it's like the anointing oil that runs down the beard of Aaron (Psalm 133). Enjoying sharing from the Word and our different experiences, we found ourselves going to bed when [other] people were planning to rise, yet we got to the conference strong and alert for Adrian to still conduct his interviews, as well as blog the conference.

Among other things I learned was to live one day at a time. This calls for faith and is needed now and in the days ahead more than ever before. The Word of God has ever been true, is true now, and will be true for all generations. Without a shadow of doubt, perilous times are coming, and are at hand. It is expedient that those who name the name of the Lord cry out till Jerusalem be made a praise on the earth, and reach out with compassion to those who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ — the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world — the only name given by which men can be saved.

Before leaving the conference, I had direction on how to do a couple of things differently in a very practical way, and truth be told, I believe I have received grace for the task because the teaching that came from those that ministered came with a lot of power (Acts 4:33). I feel very connected to the apostolic vision that the Scriptures set out clearly, and which Newfrontiers has received and is working tirelessly to fulfill.

In drawing to a close, I strongly believe that no one can fully comprehend the depth and breadth of what God in his infinite wisdom has birthed through that conference, but if Jesus tarries his coming much longer, the decade ahead will see, enjoy, and praise God for what many will be able to trace back to this conference."

I am thrilled to report that the majority of the main sessions, the Mobilise main sessions, and quite a few of the seminars and training tracks are now available to download for free.

Get over there now and start downloading, and keep checking back there for more as they continue to upload them!